Shields Warren : an oral history [sound recording]
Page  i
Interview of Shields Warren

t SHIELDS WARREN L National Library of Medicine Bethesda, Maryland 1973

Page  11 The date is October 10, 1972, This is Dr. Peter Olch visiting in the office of Dr. Shields Warren at the Shields Warren Radiation Laboratory of the New England Deaconess Hospital in Boston. Dr. W,: I'm Shields Warren and I'm very glad to have Dr. Olch on hand to have this opportunity to perhaps spend some time on a rather varied and up and down career. Dr. 0,: Dr. Warren, as I said a little earlier, I think it might be good to start off this morning talking about your family, your early years. that you date back quite some years, I gather that the Warren family is an old Massachusetts family; Dr. W.: Yes, It goes back to about the 1600s. Our branch of the fam- ily is one that landed to the north of Boston and settled in Hamilton- Wenham and were largely farmers and some members in the ministry, Some of the family went up to the Deerfield Valley early and got killed off to a fairly large extent in the Indian massacre, but some survived and lived in Williamstown and Williamsburg in the northern part of the state. My grandfather went to Wesleyan University--Wesleyan College in those days--and one of the early stories I recall his telling me was his relief when the whale oil candle came into common use because up until then he had used homemade tallow candles from the farm and the smell of the sheep was pretty strong as they were burned and the shift to the less redolent whale was rather welcomec He went into the ministry and became first a teacher at what is now Wilbraham Academy near Springfield, Massachusetts and then became the head of a Methodist school in Germany

Page  2and spent several years in Hamburg where, among other things, my father was born. Dr. 0,: May I ask, what was your grandfather's first name? Dr, W.: William Marshall Warren,, He returned from Germany to become the first president of Boston University and to work with the founders of the University in 1869, sequently became Professor of Philosophy and Dean of the College of Liberal Arts for a number of years. My grandfather was one of the early summer visitors at Hyannisport which has now become better known than it was in those days, and spent most of his summers there except for the times that he was traveling overseas, There, a close neighbor was Judge George He Shields who was a judge of the Circuit Court in St, Louis, Among other things, earlier he had lived in Hannibal, Missouri where he had been Mark Twain's rather unwilling lawyer for a period of time because apparently Twain was in trouble a good deal of the time and did not pay too much attention to the legal advice that he got. But I heard a lot about him as a boy because Sara Shields, the judge's daughter (and my mother later), became the wife of my father, William Marshall Warren, His name was William Fairfield Warren. My father's name was My father graduated from the University and sub- About the first vivid memory that I have is the smell of the sea and the saltmarsh as we would go down to Hyannisport in the springtime and again in June, as soon as college co-wencement was over, we would spend the summer there, I learrred to swim and sail quite early, I was very fortunate, again in the neighborhood, because another close neighbor was

Page  3. L. Dr. Lafayette Page, a leading nose and throat specialist in those days in Indiana, well-known in fact in most of the Ohio Valley, His son, Irvine H, Page, the cardiac specialist of today, was my almost constant playmate. Because of my father's interest in outdoor things and because of Irvine's father's interest in medicine, both of us became very much interested in science, and the seashore, of course, provided us a vast amount of material for this. In order to be able to cooperate better and not compete too much, Iwine took over the plant side of the world and I took over the animal, He became quite an expert algologist, among other things, We had rather long-suffering parents. I recall once we had concentrated plankton by straining sea water and we wanted some silicious diatoms to study under the microscopeo We decided the thing to do was to boil it down in sulfuric acid which we proceeded to do over a kerosene lamp. The sulfuric acid boiled over and I can still remember the way my khaki pants just utterly dissolved, Again, olfactory memories tend to be quite strong and another one that stands out from boyhood times is that of chloroform because Irvine and I got interested in, first, turtles which we collected from the various ponds in the neighborhood, and then in frogs, and we decided to chloro- form a frog to kill it and then to open it up and see what its anatomy was like and that was our first anatomy lesson, Soon after we got our first lesson in surgery when one of our playmates needed to have his tonsils and adenoids out and Dr, Page did this in his office in the house which very convenientlp had some fairly large cracks in the walls so Twine and I could watch the process, I think

Page  44 some of our interest in medicine may have stemmed from that. My Grandfather Shields happened to be a friend of Theodore Roosevelt. Years back, under Harrison's administration, he had been a Solicitor General of the United States and had a number of Washington contacts and represented the United States as far as the Chilean claims were concerned for a considerable number of years, We used to have quite a lot of visitors. One that I remember rather vividly is Theodore Roosevelt who was in his trust-busting at that time and he autographed a little note for me at the time promising that he would not bust my turtle trust. One of the things that I think helped to interest me in medicine early, aside from these other things, was that my grandfather still carried a Civil War rifle bullet and he'd been on the Union side of the Civil War and most of his family had gone on the Confederate side which is why he had left Kentucky and gone to Missouri because the feeling ran pretty strong after the warc The children of the neighborhood used to gather alternately at our house and hear his stories about the Civil War and the Uncle Remus stories that he told extraordinarily well which supposedly are not in taste these days, Then the other days Imine Page's mother would read stories to us that she chose rather wisely to include a fair amount of history--they were mostly the historical novel type of thingo It was a surprisingly able group of youngsters that we were with. One became very well-known as a lawyer, Byron Elliot, subsequently president of the John Hancock Life Insurance Company, and two or three members of

Page  5J 5 I the National Academy of Sciences I have had first contact with in our boyhood days at Hyannisport, It was a quite interesting, stimulating environment in which to be, Just as a sidelight, this is very interest- ing because Irvine Page was greatly stimulated in his high school days by the Shortridge High School science teaching in Indianapolis and Baird Hastings, whom you know, was one of the men who came from there and I have run across twelve or fifteen very able men who had gotten their initial interest in science at Shortridge in those days. Dr. 0,: I'm trying to remember whether it was Dochez or somebody in Dr. Hastings' past who he found out just by happenstance years later had also been at Shortridge, Dr. W,: There are "islands" of excellence of this sort. Take the University of South Dakota. You would hardly think that it would be an outstanding place, but Ernest Lawrence, John Lawrence , [Philip S,] Hench, all three came from there--three Nobel Pri:?e winners. Well, that's rather off the track. I had a very useful experience going to grammar school in Brookline because we went rigidly by geography in those days and there was no shifting in school districts, or busing, or anything of this sort, so that there were relatively few of us who were Protestants and of American background in a very large school of Irish, so I had some interesting experience of what it's like on the minority side and found that quite helpful and learned how to stand up for my immediate rights as well as I was able to. I was very fond of reading and I would, I think, probably read an average of four or five books

Page  6from the library almost every week from about the fourth or fifth grade on which is quite handy, Our family--because father liked to write, as soon as he got his ordinary college work done, he would write editorials for the Boston Herald in the evening--and whether by example or heredity or luck we didn't, any of us, need very much sleep. One of the very helpful things I found is that for a number of years I could get along very comfortably on five hours sleep and I've had to lengthen that to about six or six and a half hours now, but this was extremely helpful in more active times because I could have about the standard activity that a youngster would have and at the same time get quite a lot of reading done. In Brookline, we were very fortunate in having an excellent school system with very able teachers. were men in those days, mostly Harvard Ph,D.'s and a very able lot. was in the last high school class that had Greek. There were only three of us in the class and we had practically personal instruction, there- fore, with my three years of Greek in high school, I found when I went to college at Boston University that I had had more Greek than most of the seniors there, and the same way as far as Latin was concerned. I was able to move into sophomore Latin in college. I had an exception- ally good English teacher and Math teacher also, and we were drilled hard in those days and you would have to have a theme five days a week and it was gone over very carefully so we modeled largely on the eigh- teenth century English style and I found that the rather straightfor- ward and lucid style has helped in my scientific writing since, although The majority of the high school teachers I

Page  77 it seemed an awful grind at the time. 4 Because of the family interest ir, Boston University, I had always assumed that that would be the place to go and found it very worth- while. But I found that the excellent training I had had at Brookline High put me reasonably in advance of a number of the others in my class, so I decided to take some extra courses. By virtue of this, I was able to be an assistant in a biology course in which I was very greatly interested and this was my major field in college and to meet the requirements in three years. The war was on, I was anxious to serve, but my parents were very anxious to have me finish college first, So we worked out a compromise; you were allowed to get through early, In the college years I think there were three outstanding things that have been subsequently helpful. First, I was fairly active in the Greek letter fraternity, Kappa Phi Alpha, a local, and this gave me good training in how to deal with contemporaries. The i erest that Imine Page and I maintained every summer found a very useful outlet in the biology department. I kept up my interest in writing and became editor of the college magazine. I was so intrigued by biology and par- ticularly zoology, that I spent one summer at. Woods Hole in the embryology course which was a very fine one and made the acquaintance of Professor George Parker there who was head of the Department of Biology at Haward, About this time--1 guess it was my freshman year in college--1 got especially interested in shells and made a survey of the land mollusks of the New England area and through that got acquainted with the people in the Boston Natural History Society, In our church

Page  88 was a Doctor Herbert Johnson who was head of their invertebrate col- lection, and he was very helpful and gave me the run of the museum collection so I could identify my findings and I worked out some sort of primitive ecology in those days. 1 guess I knew (because I rode a bicycle a good deal) every stream and pond within a twenty-five mile radius, I used to take off quite frequently and usually with some sort of a project such as trying to find the remains of the old Boston-Lowell Canal that ran between the two cities and to find vestiges of it here and there just as the Chesapeake and Potomac Canal now, only much harder in those days, a lot of it lost in wild swampo interested in trees and had helped the tree committee in Brookline in working out a census of the Brookline street trees. we used to hunt for the largest, oldest trees and we made a number of bicycle pilgrimages to check on reputedly the largest and oldest trees to see if they really were. tree out in Southboro I think it was, just south of the present Massachu- setts Turnpike, that was thirty odd feet in circumferencev I think it was the largest one that we had found. Father was very fond of tramping and bicycle riding and he and He was very much Among other things Until some years ago, there was a huge elm Through his interest in local history, Father had sort of concentrated on the park systems in and around Boston, and through his Herald con- nection was quite helpful in getting the Blue Hills area set aside as a reservation and other things of, I guess you'd call, a conservation nature then; in those days it didn't go by any special nameo

Page  9I .f t To go back to Doctor Parker, I mentioned him particularly because I used to enjoy the Sunday evening talks he would give on the porch of the mess hail at Woods Hole; it was a very informal place back in the pre-World War I days, Every Sunday evening Parker, Jacque Loeb, Morgan, the geneticist, and frequently Clowes, who was much interested in cancer in those days and later went with Eli Lilly and was largely responsible for the industrial development of insulin, this group would engage in sort of a cross fire of discussion of some area of biologic science and all the youngsters would herd around and listen to them, I became a great admirer of Parker and decided that what I wanted to do would be to take a Ph.D. in zoology and work under him, This was all arranged in 1917 prior to my graduation--1 graduated in 1918, I still kept this as an ideal but was getting more and more concerned about the war, I was accepted for ----- oh, I might mention that I spent the summer of '17 up at Plattsburgh in the Plattsburgh camp there, and learned a great deal of infantry tactics there and, again, ran across many very interesting friends, among whom was a chap named [Fuller] Albright, who was related to the Albright College people and for him- self, you know, ultimately came here to the MGH [Massachusetts General Hospitall, deal of time and effort with us there at Plattsburgh, I became a great admirer of Leonard Wood who put in a great On graduation in '18--I think they graduated us early that year, in early May or something of that sort--1 signed up for ROTC and because I'd had a good deal of Math they suggested that I sign up for artillery, I found the usual thing--you hurry up and wait, and I kept waiting for

Page  10my turn to be called. The artillery camp was at Camp Taylor outside Louisville in those days, To fill in in between times and learn some- thing about the way in which artillery worked, I decided to become an ordnance inspector, There were a number of shell factories here and there was one that was turning out shells for the Russian Army and I worked a good share of that summer in the ordnance plant and learned from the workers' standpoint the seamier side of the way labor unions operated there, That has given me probably an unfair prejudice against unions since that time. The idea is grand but the instruments by which those ideas are carried out all too often pervert. When my call came, I went to Camp Taylor and I did not do too well there because the artillery was horse and mule drawn; I'd never gotten acquainted with mules and I found them very difficult animals with which to work, However, I got through and one very interesting aspect was that they were in urgent need of officers and they had picked out a great number of the old regular army privates who had been in the artillery at our camp and were trying to make artillery officers out of them, They found it impossible to learn the mathematics and several of us got the idea of setting some of the simpler math rules as to range finding and things of this sort in rhyme, and setting them to the tunes of some of the old army songs, I can still hear these birds, in the evenings that they couldn't get leave, hollering out these songs under our tutelage and then being able to apply them on their field problems, subsequently, The flu hit Louisville with pretty devastating effect and one day in

Page  11late October I got up feeling like hell and I got out onto the parade ground but didn't quite make the lineup, When I woke up I was in the base hospital, The medical care was unbelievably bad in those days. Dr, 0,: camp? In general you think in the army, or just in this particular E Dr, We: Oh, I can't speak for it in general, but where I was, They were very short of doctors, They were using enlisted men--anybody-- for nurses. and pleasant Tennessee mountaineer looked at me and said, "What do you all want?" want water, moonshine is the only thing for you;'' weathered it, The mortality was terribly heavy, as you knowe ninety percent of the camp was down with the flu. vividly we'd see men die spottily all through the wards; the long line of several hundred coffins outside every morning, This convinced me that there ought to be a better way of doing medicine than this, and while I was convalescing I made up my mind that medicine was what I wanted to do so I cancelled out my zoology, I recall when I was moderately conscious this very concerned I told him that I wanted some water, and he said, "You don't But fortunately I Roughly I remember very Dr, 0.: That's very interesting. on you because I gather you really had your mind set on this Ph,D, in It must have made quite an impression zoology, Dr, We: persisted and helped me to a considerable extent, Although my interest in that (I'll come back to it later) has

Page  127 12 t As I was convalescing from the flu, the false armistice came--1 think that was November 8 or something like that--and everybody was quite excited and of course it fell through. Then November 11, the real armistice, came and I was still a convalescent in the hospital and they had not sent us back to our unit, Somebody in the War Department got the bright idea that the people in the hospital weren't much good and probably would--some of them--die on their hands, So everybody in the hospital on the 12th of November got an automatic discharge from the service. I did some mail and telephone exploration and found that if I got some more chemistry I could get into Harvard Medical School the next October--they were going to open late, so that the men who had been in the Amy would have a chance to get in, And so I decided to spend the rest of that year seeing the country and having only a relatively small grubstake from the service pay that I had saved--$60 a month in those days--1 decided the best way of doing this would be to hobo. So I went out to St. Louis first to see my grandfather and visited, among other things, his farm in St. Charles County which was the final homestead of Daniel Boone and was on the north side of the Missouri River and took in a number of acres at the river bottom and the adjacent upland, The house itself impressed me greatly, The walls were stone, three feet thick with narrow embrasure-type things that he could fire out of at the Indians and so on. It was extremely interest- ing and made a great impression on me at the time, I had visited there before often, of course, because we used to go out to see my grand- parents in St, Louis every year. To backtrack a little bit---- I think one of the major disappointments of my childhood had to do with the

Page  13Icc-- 13 St, Louis World's Fair. One of the things that they were doing there was to present as a specialty sprm sugar candy and I invested what allowance I had in that, but my mother convinced me that I should only eat so much of it and save the rest. Well, St. Louis, of course, has a very humid climate so when I got up in the morning all that there was was a small sticky gum in the bottom of the box, and that taught me that if you wanted to do something you had better do it quickly if you really wanted to do it. [Laughter] To go back to the War--post-War----- my army experience taught me several things. One was how to get along with a variety of people, and how to give orders and see that the orders would be carried out reasonably cheerfully, and to build up a feeling of responsibility for the people that you gave the orders to. The second thing it did for me was to make me appreciate that there were certain sorts of things that could be settled only by force; that you could be rational up to a certain point, but rationality wouldn't get you very far unless you could enforce that rationale. The third thing was that if you learned your organization you could work fairly freely within it, and I spent a lot of time on the Army Regulations that proved to be quite helpful because they had obviously been thought out so that even mediocre people would make as few bad errors as possible, I think it also helped me in a certain disregard of fear, not because I had any combat experience, but having gone through the flu experience you sort of figured that if you were one of the unlucky ones, so what; if you were one of the lucky ones, fine. This I found very helpful to me in my hcjbo years and subsequently.

Page  1414 I guess probably the next real break came-----my grandfather insisted that I travel by train on the first leg of my voyage, and I had saved up enough money to get to Ogden, Utah, so I had gone out on the U.P. (Union Pacific) and I decided when I saw Ogden that this was a very interesting place. It was where the joining of the two ends of the U.P, had come about. It was Mormon country, Very beautiful on the foothills of the Wasatch Mountains where the plain of the Great Salt Lake and the salt flats spread out before you, I decided by necessity, because after I had paid for some meals on the dining car, horribly expensive I thought, I landed in Ogden with five cents in my pocket, That called for some fairly fast figuring and I knew that men were scarce because this was still November of '18 when men were scarce and I knew I could get a job most anywhere, I figured that the best thing to do would be to get a night job so that I could sightsee in daytime and to get a job that would provide me with food. So I went to the hotel first--the Reed Hotel, I remember--and it just happened that they needed a stationary engineer, Well, I didn't know anything about stationary engineering but I hotfooted it over to the library and found the International Correspondence School book and read up enougho So I went back and I was an engineer and they gave me the job as night engineer in the hotel, It carried meals; they weren't much to brag of but they were wholesome, they were plenty and being help you could eat what you wanted, and my trick was from 9 o'clock at night to 5 o'clock the next morning, Unfortunately, they burned local coal and that Wasatch coal is pretty poor grade and I would have to shovel out about twenty- five percent of it in the form of ash and clinkers, I learned to be

Page  1515 f fairly expert with a shovel and a slice bar because there was enough slate and gypsum in with it so that it clinkered very badly. This job gave me a fair amount of time to read and I became interested in the Mormons and was very much impressed by the extraordinarily high grade of moral attitude and practicing of those morals that they showed, their honesty all the way through and I decided to try to learn some- thing of the foundations so I guess I'm one of the few people who had read the Book of Mormon all the way through, I used to do that on my night watches, This, incidentally, gave me a great deal of interest in the University of Utah and I'll come back to that at a later time. Dr, 0.: How long did you stay in Ogden? Dr, W.: I was in Ogden about four weeks, I think the most amusing thing I ran across there was that I roomed fairly near the hotel and they had a bathtub in the rooming house where I was but no water for it, So I used to bring home, when I went off duty, two pails of hot water from the injector valve and I could take a bath in this, Well, I hadn't been sloshing around very long--the walls of the rooming houses in those days would go up about as high as the block wall (there), and then be open at the ceiling to provide ventilation through the rooms because a good many of the rooms didn't have windows, One of the miners that was living nearby, heard me sloshing around and couldn't make out what it was. Then he found that I was taking baths and he hailed me one day and said, "Look, when you're through, save the water and let me have it there." [LaughterJ

Page  1616 , t. From there I decided to send most of that grubstake home to help on the medical school tuition and I wanted to do a little more traveling so I found that on the Oregon short line the fireman would be very glad to have you stoke for him and would stake you to not only passage but meals. So I stoked a freight engine from Ogden up to the Dalles in Oregon, This took two days, and had a tremendous meal of ham and eggs when we got there, In the Dalles I sort of went exploring around, I had another amusing episode up in Butte, Butte was a pretty rugged mining town in those days, hadn't gotten much law and order, and it was on a hillside of course and you would walk on wooden sidewalks and there were these one-story wooden buildings set along this, The room I rented was directly on the sidewalk, I had gone in and started to clean up and pulled the window shade down and I hadn't been there much more than ten minutes I guess when I heard the window pane smash and a big hairy set of fingers came in and grabbed the curtain and yanked it out and a big drunk looking in "wanted to see what's so damn private going on in here?" I had come in quite dirtyo Dr, 0.: Welcome to Butte, Montana. Dr, W,: It really gave me quite a wonderful chance to see the country, Dr, 0.: That must have been a grand experience particularly at that point in time, Dr. W,: You could always pick UP an odd job, I found in general it worked fairly well to do one-night stands in the less interesting places and take a longer job in the more interesting places, I went up from

Page  1717 the Dalles on these side trips, I poked out along the Snake River Valley, more or less, [End of Side I, Reel 11 [Side 11, Reel 11 Dr. W.: I had picked up a bicycle at the Dalles and went down to, among other places, Portland, Oregon which I liked very much; it was a very clean city. shipyards there--they were still building the iron ships--and I worked on the night shift again; this was from eleven to seven. I remember it very vividly because it was always foggy or raining in Portland and the effect of the lights on the unpainted and the red painted iron in the hulls shining in the wet, the arc as the rivet was tossed from the forge to the riveter. I worked as a backer-up on the riveting gang. You got on the other side from the riveter and held an iron bar with a hole in its head and as the rivet was pounded on the outside you would be oscillating back and forth trying to keep the rivet in place, You learned pretty darn fast to do it right because if the riveter hit it before your backer-up was in place, it would come out and Lord knows where it would hit you, so you had to be quite sure, We usually worked in gangs of four. caught and placed the rivets--he had a little tin funnel he'd catch it in, the backer-up and the riveter, ing and worthwhile, There were very good jobs, very good pay in the There would be the man on the forge, the man who This was good pay and very interest- I was a member of the union there. A

Page  18Dr, 0.: Was your experience about the same or did you find it more sat is f ying ? Dr, W.: No, the experience was just about the same, Well, after I had explored the Portland territory quite thoroughly and I was greatly taken by the Columbia River Valley, Mount Hood, Mount St. Helens, a11 that area, I got restless again and took my bike and went up to Seattle, Dr. 0,: Did you ride up to Seattle or did you hitchhike? Dr. W.: Yes, on my bike, I learned at this time that there was a market for combined adventure-travel stories so I wrote up for the Boston Herald (I worked on the Herald as a reporter when I was in col- lege to get some extra dough) accounts of the work in the shipyard and how things were in the West of that time and conned them into thinking that it would be a good thing to write a series of stories on riding a bicycle around the Olympic Peninsula, I conned myself too, as I found, because when I got up to Seattle I found that there was a steamer that went over to Port Townsend but there was a road from Port Townsend only up to Crescent Lake which is perhaps the first ten miles, Then there was a primitive motor boat that would take you to a little village called Forks up at the other end of the lake, and incidentally there were some of the lovliest steel-head trout in that lake I ever saw, There were very few others that loggers that came in there and in the Olympics, as you know, it rains all the time, 4 Dr, 0,: Yes, I spent two years in Seattle,

Page  19t 'F 1 a i Dr. W.: Well, then you know it quite well. Oh, that's right, you had worked with Paul Lund. Dr. 0.: Yes, as a matter of fact that's where I got turned toward pa thology from surge ry . Dr. W,: Well, he had been one of my house officers here. A very able chap. When I got to Forks, there was a little store there and perhaps eight or ten houses and that was all, and that was what they called a "puncheon trail" in those days that was made of logs about four feet long that were laid on the forest floor so that you wouldn't sink too deep into the mud. I had worked out on the map a route to the headwaters of the Hoh River and they told me there was a settler who kept cattle in there. They told me an amusing story about him. He would habitually drive a certain number of cattle in and then buy ammunition, canned goods, whatnot, and shortly before--some months before I got there-- he had driven in his usual quota of cattle and there was a very acute meat shortage so the price had gone way, way up and they offered him fifty dollars a head for his cattle--the normal price was around six or seven dollars. This was too much for himand he stopped and figured awhile and he said, "NO, if they're worth that much to you, they're worth that much to me," so he turned around and drove them all back again! Well, he had an area where there had been a burn and a good deal of grass had grown in and the cattle used to find their way in between the tree trunks. There was a trail of sorts down the Hoh River to the

Page  2020 coast where there was an Indian settlement. I think it was called Hoh or something like that, right on the coast. That trail was miserable and part of the agreement of my story was that I was to go through on the bicycle. Well it was impossible to get the bike over this trail assembled, So what I did was to take the wheels off and pack the wheels and half my itlar on one trip and then come back and get the frame and take it back. When I got down to the Hoh, by travel- ing at the foot of the cliffs in between the tide I was able to get some dry beach for a fair distance and could ride the bike here and there, but then I would come up to where the cliffs were squarely in the breakers and had to foot it. It was very interesting and pleasant. To go back a little, my first night out of Forks I was up against a different type of camping than I had ever had previously because every- thing was soaking wet and I couldn't make a fire, I was miserable and cold, I made myself sort of a sticky mess out of the cornmeal that I carried, that and seeded raisins were my rations. I still remember how lousy it tasted. Then I learned from this chap, the cattle raiser, that if you found a fallen tree and chopped up the under side of the tree you could get dry wood that way and I was okay from that time on. I worked my way down the coast going up the various streams until I made a series of zigzags up to the Olympics on the western side and back down and then came to another Indian settlement at the Bogachiel River and that was too deep and too swift or me. I ordinarily put my things on a log and swam them across but I couldn't do it. I got one of the Indians--he had sort of a half raft: affair--and we were almost

Page  2121 over to the other side when the current caught the thing against a rock and it tipped and spilled my gear and bike into the water. Boy, that water was cold to retrieve jt, Harbor and I worked awhile--two days--in one of the sawmills at Gray's Harbor, It was very interesting because everything was on piles, Even the streets were on piles; it was shallow water and swamp, The logs would be rafted in and then they had the wharfs alongside these piling areas where the finished timber would be loaded in the small coastal vessels and transshipped to Tacoma or Seattle. Then I wanted to see something of the big timber so I got a job as assistant cook in one of the Weyerhaeuser camps and learned how much hungry lumber jacks can eat and learned how to make flapjacks that would fill the frying pan and be able to flip them, Then I worked from there to Gray's I can't do it now; I've lost the knack. Dr. 0.: Did they make sourdough pancakes? Did you just keep adding the flour and so on, I was introduced to those in Idaho by a sheepherder one time, Dr, W,: Yes, it was awfully good. Fortunately, it had the right kind of bacteria growing in it. [Laughter] That was very pleasant. Then I worked inland from Gray's Harbor and back to Portland and down to Medford, Oregon in the Rogue River Valley and that was gorgeous country. I happened to hit that when the plums were in blossom and it was truly lovely--one of the prettiest sights I have ever seeno I did odd jobs there, carpentry chores and SO on for a little while and made some side trips to Crater Lake, Shasta and up through there, From the

Page  2222 Shasta region I went down past the big smelter--1 can't think of it-- it's about sixty miles scluth of Shasta on the Sacramento River, I was impressed with the way the fumes had killed everything for ten or fif- teen miles around, Then went down to San Francisco and worked as a longshoreman there, again in the union, again getting an unfavorable impression of the union. From there I'd take side trips around the bay; I got pretty well acquainted with the bay areac I then picked up a job over at Sausalito where you had to cross by ferry in those days. There was a little boatyard there and I knew boats well, Dr. 0.: That used to be one of my favorite spots before it became a hippy colony. Dr, W.: Yes, it certainly has changed. I enjoyed that very much. Then 1 decided to work the fruit down California. I went up and had a nice time in Yosemite--it was very primitive in those days, not the present day crowd. From there worked along down, riding "side door pullman" on the SoPo down to Bakersfield. I was rather intrigued by the hobo jungle there. I stayed there two or three days talking and getting acquainted with various of the hobos, They used oil tins there. Your stunt would be to get two oil tins, knock the bottom out of one, and dig a trench and then heap sand about a foot thick over it, that would give you the length of twoo The sand would keep you moderately cool by day and warm by night, 3.. ?-,akii:g your own you were sure not to get the lice of the previous cust-o:wr. I;rom there I went over to Los Angeles and worked in the orarigc VTPVCS arour:d the fringes there and fell in I i

Page  2323 love with the Monterey Peninsula, hoboing on down through there and wound up in San Diego and over into Tijuana, I then decided to go eastward and again chose the S.P, and rode the rods on that and came into--1 can't think of the name of it now, but it was beyond, it was east of Yuma about halfway across and there was a Mexican town----- Dr, 0,: Not Flagstaff? Dr, W,: No, way south of Flagstaff----- Pantano, I had money enough to live in moderate luxury there so I was able to stay in a hotel and eat in a restauranto At that time the Mexican Army was in a bad way and--I've forgotten how I happened to hear about it--they wanted an artillery instructor and so I went across the bordero We still had the three-inch guns then which was what the Mexicans had, so I could teach them how to handle them fairly well, with gestures and yelling English you could usually get the idea across, I got paid twenty dollars gold a day for that and I managed to string it out for eight or ten days, Then went back over and bought a horse and decided to work up north, I got up to Tucson and then up through some of the partially irrigated (they hadn't done much irrigation in those days) up to Phoenix which was pretty primitive in those days, and then up to Prescott which was the center of the horse and grazing country, They had a newspaper there, I remember it, the Yavapai County Journal Miner, and I conned the editor into letting me be the society editor. That gave me base pay, a fair number of free meals, and a I couldn't talk any Spanish but

Page  2424 chance to meet quite a lot of people that L wouldn't otherwise meet. I stayed at that for awhile while I had a chance to explore central Arizona a bit, Then I went up to Flagstaff, Williams, Grand Canyon, worked back by way of the Petrified Forest. to go into Meteor Crater then; it was years later before I could, Then worked down to the S.P, again and dropped off at Albuquerque; I've forgotten, I guess I rode blind baggage that time. At Albuquerque poked around in the immediate vicinity and was fascinated by the Sandia and Jemez Mountains, Then I got to Raton and that was interesting country-- a little mining and a lot of grazing. I didn't have a chance Dr, 0,: The old Santa Fe Trail coming through there. Dr. W,: Yes, So I stopped off there and went up to Fueblo and got into a mess with bedbugs because the hotel where I was had been headquarters of the IWW convention just before and they hadn't cleaned it up since, Then came back down south and took the SOP. riding the rods, dropping off every a-tce and awhile, to Houston. Then poked around Houston for awhile, the wheat up the Panhandle, Amarillo, and then cut over in Oklahoma and found a job with the Parkersburg Rig and Reel Company for a few days in Tulsa. It was hard work, They made the oil storage tanks out of wooden staves--oak staves--in those days, and the job I was on was unloading these twenty-foot long oak planks brought from the sawmill off of flat- Came up and worked the wheat when I got up to Dallas and worked carsc There would be two of US to a plank; fortunately we didn't have to lift up, we'd just swing out and out and down, lucrative and I got talking to an interesting chap in one of the hash That wasn't very

Page  25houses one day, and it turned out that he was a revivalist for the Holy Rollers and we decided to go shares and he would do the singing-- he had a very good voice and a banjo--and I would do the preaching and the praying and we had a three-way split, one-third for him, one-third for me, and one-third for the Lord. It worked out reasonably well because, it was surprising, if you stayed fairly close to a reasonable supply of drunks, in the evening, how many quarters and half dollars you'd get thrown at you. That gave me a chance to see something of that part of Oklahoma, Unfortunately, I didn't have brains enough to buy any oil land, Then I went back to the wheat and here you could ride side door pullman again because the Santa Fe knew that they had to have people at the harvest area if they were going to get nr:y wheat to haul on their railroad, Dr, 0.: They were very lenient on letting on free riders, Dr. We: So we could travel there, I teamed up for awhile with one particular gang, I worked on the binder; that was before they had these overall harvesters, That was good wholesome worko It happened that the sugar beets were ripe in eastern Colorado and the Iww was trying to run the farm strike. It suddenly occurred to me that I knew how to run a tractor. So I got a job running a tractor, The only difficulty was once and awhile one of the wobblies would get to feeling particularly high and shoot in the general direction of the binder or the rig and it wasn't too reassuring. paid, I frequently got $15 a day which was very good pay for those days, [ short pause] On the other hand we got well t

Page  2626 We might go back a bit,, When Iwine Page and I were working together we saved our money and what we could from our allowances and eventually got enough money together--about 1912--to buy a compound microscope from Watson's in England, I can still recall the thrill when this came through to the Hyannisport post office by mail and we unpacked it. First, we didn't know much about using it and were disappointed because we couldn't see anything at all and then we got the hang of how to focus and how to use a white cloud as a light source and were able to take off studying at the microscope level a number of things we'd been inter- ested in, Now to pick up the threads, When I got up into Kansas, I had been in correspondence with the University of Denver because it ran a summer school which was quite popular in those days being in Denver, I had arranged for a chemistry coursee I was very fortunate to be able to stay with some friends in Denver and lived very comfortably and had a very good time going to parties and things of that sort, dances, and was able to con the professor into giving me passing grades in the course. I went back to hoboing and worked the wheat up into the Dakotas and by that time it was October and time to get back to medical schoole I came back and that was the end of the hobo phase of the existence. I think there were three things that I got out of it, One was that you never need to be afraid of being broke; two, that if most people are not driven into a corner they are rather pleasant and won't fight; three, that if you're willing to work hard you can learn to do almost I

Page  2727 any kind of a job. I might mention earlier that father had been very much impressed by the Quaker principle that everybody ought to have a trade as well as a profession, so in high school I began working a portion of each summer at the New England Structural Steel Company learning how to do lay-outs in structural steel, that is, you would read the blueprints and mark with chalk where the holes had to be drilled and where welds had to be made and things of this sort. rather interesting work. principle to usec It was I feel very strongly that this is a sound I went to medical schoolo suffering and put up without any objection to my hoboing and acted as a forwarding point for mail on the one hand and a place where I could send my savings on the other hand, I entered medical school October of 1918. Harvard was a lot easier to get into in those days and there were not the formal types of exams that you had to take and everything else, If you had a reasonably good college record and stood up at the interview that was about all it took, ing one because we were the first class after the War and there were men like Jim White, the Professor of Neurosurgery at Massachusetts General, our class president, who had been in the War as a volunteer with the French and the English from the very start and I remember we had an infantry major about forty years old who turned into an extremely good general practitioner, Quite a cross-section of people, I found the lecture system that was then used was very hard to take, but we found the only practical way of learning anatomy was to split into small I might say that my parents were very long- Our class was a singly interest-

Page  28- 28 groups of three or four and recite to each other and quiz each other on the origin and insertion of the muscles, the;r relations, nerve, blood vessels and what not, and we could do very good work on our "stiff" which I learned a great deal from. I felt that I needed to earn some extra money so I went back to the Herald and they decided to --they'd been running a syndicated column called "How to keep well," It was run by a Dr, Evans on the Chicago-Tribune staff who was Professor of Public Health out at Northwestern at the time--very nice, affable chap, spoke very well, But they wanted the column to have local flavor so it was my job everyday to take the Evans copy as it came in and to reedit it, inject it, put in local references, make sure there was something about the Massachusetts General, for example, and to see that if there was any recent epidemic in the Boston area to make reference to that, if he was talking about water problems to see that there were Massachusetts rather than Illinois examples It was quite interesting, In the course of this I was fortunate to get acquainted--if you can call it getting acquainted--with Cal Coolidge because when he was in the State House both as a Representative and then elected, he would walk across the Common every night and come into the Herald office which was just off the east corner of the Common because he'd pick up a copy of the Morning Herald and the Evening Traveler free, He would stop and look at the news tickers and listen to what we had to say, once in awhile say, "Yes, I' "NO, 'I and "Mebbe," and that was about all. One of my favorite stories is a Cal Coolidge story, He was really as laconic as he was said to be and this is a true story that I heard from his wife,

Page  29They'd gone to a strawberry festival up in Northampton--church festival of course he was a politician, he had to go--and when it came to dessert it was strawberry shortcake and he pushed it away, She said, "Gal, aren't you going to eat it?" "NO." "It's good." ''Yeah." "Don't you want it?" "No." "But you paid for it, Cal," "I don't want it." "Why don't you want it?" "Might lose my taste for prunes." [Laughter] Well, in medical school I was extremely fortunate because there were several men who had been in the Medical Corps during the War and had decided just as I did that medicine was what they wanted and had been in contact with some of the officers who had come back and were now on the faculty of the medical school, One, Major Leslie Spooner, who taught what is now called Clinical Path had been the Commanding Officer of the Base Laboratory up at Camp Devens and so he took an interest in several of us and introduced us to Ernst who was Professor of Bacteriology, Dr. 0,: Yes, Harold C. Ernst. Dr, W,: Yes, He introduced me to Wolbach--So Burt Wolbach--and Ernst as I knew little photography, had me work part time in doing some photomicrography for him and he and Wolbach used and owned a photo- micrographic apparatus between them, both were superb artists at it, and it gave me a wonderful chance to work with both of them and to learn a great deal, Later on in school I had a chance to do proof- reading for Ernst because of my writing experience for the then American Journal of Medical Sciences, I think it was; it's now the American

Page  30Journal of Pathologyo No, that isn't quite right, but------ Dr. 0,: There's still an American Journal of Medical Sciences, Dr, W,: No, no, that isn't right but the name will eventually come back, It was the official journal of pathologists and bacteriologists. When pathology came I began using the microscope again and then I realized that this was it and was what I wanted, One of the texts that we used was Mallory's Histo-pathology, lab a little and working for Ernst and also for Wolbach and learned Mallory and Wright's histologic technique there. [Frank B.] Mallory was on the outs with [William T.1 Councilman then and was pathologist for the Boston City Hospital, no longer associated with the Medical School, but after reading his book I figured that he was the pathol- ogist. There were three things that struck me: one, was the excellence I began to poke around in the of the photomics, two, the fact that everything in there was personal observation, not cribbed from somebody else, and three, that he had ideas about everything, They weren't always the accepted ideas but he had ideas. So it was in my second year that I decided thFt w ~~~~ time for internship or residency came that Mallory was the man I wanted to work with, I didn't do too well in the clinical years, I found it awfully hard to get excited about arthritis as it was taught to us with no attention--not quite--but a little attention paid to etiology and most attention paid to what to do to keep the arthritic cripples from becoming worse cripples than they already were, a pretty narrow and disheartening view of things. There were some wonderful orthopods at

Page  3131 that time, people like Joel Goldthwaite, for example, but this was not very interesting or satisfying. When I went on the wards in medicine I found again what 1 was after and was tremendously impressed by both Dr. [Francis W.1 Peabody at the City Hospital, who was Professor of Medicine and succeeded [George R.] Minot as head of the Thorndike, and came in contact with Minot--the bright youngsters that surrounded him--and particularly a very good chap,also interested in arthritis, named H. A, Nissen who came from North or South Dakota, and did very well, and took great interest in teaching the students. So I made up my mind not only for Mallory but for the type of people on the staff at the City, that the City Hospital was the place where I wanted to work. While I was there I worked as a student house officer over at the New England Deaconess Hospital some, partly by chance, because Dr. [Elliott P,] Joslin was the Chief Physician at the Deaconess and his brother-in-law, Dr. Denny, was my family doctor. Joslin was very kind and took an interest in me as a medical student. He used to use students for history taking and doing some of the primi- tive lab work that was done in those days, I got used to seeing diabetic coma and that sort of thing. I then graduated from medical school and as characteristic of the med- ical men in those days, we paid very 1itl:Ie attention to Harvard College; nobody bothered to go tc\ commencement as fi1-c as I can recall, in the entire class, and simply had our diplomas mailed to us. I had a little vacation at the Cape before I started in July 1 at the Boston City as one of Dr, Mallory's assistants, He ran a very tight shop which was

Page  32fortunate for uso He believed that there was no sense running a lab unless you knew everything in the lab. So we had to sharpen our own knives, cut our own sections, do our own bacteriology and so on all the way through which was awfully good training. at times. I was on Wassermann tests for three months and we would have over a thousand a day to do and we would have to not only do all the tests ourselves but we'd even have to wrestle with the sheep out in the animal yard to get blood from him. literally from the ground up in those days. It was exasperating So we really learned quite Dr. 0.: I'm sure that day and age is long past, Dr, W.: We had some primitive amusements. We would suddenly turn out the lights in the tunnel between the buildings and leave them off for awhile and then shoot the rats off the pipes with our twenty-two's. A milder form of that was to go on what we called elephant hunts. We'd turn off the lights for maybe fifteen or twenty minutes in the lab when we were working there at night and as soon as we heard abundant rustling of cockroaches we would have loaded a 10 cc. syringe with xylol and the man who had the lowest count of cockroaches had to take the others to a Chinese feed because the City Hospital food was terrible. We would ordinarily just eat on the fringes of it and save up our appetites until we were through work in the evening, and then go to a Chinese restau- rant. We picked it for two reasonso One, one of the residents with us was Dr. Hu--Chen Hsiang Hu--who subsequently became a Professor at Peking Union, and, incidentally, Baird Hastings knew him, He would pick i

Page  3333 out the Chinese food for us and get an extra discount on it and we did very well, Dr, Mallory was also the consultant for the United Fruit Company and he took his pay in stalks of bananas--those were the days when the headquarters of the United Fruit was in Boston--and they used to unload the ships and sell bananas to the Italian pushcart peddlers, This pre- sent day distribution system was nonexistent, of courseo So whoever owned an automobile in the group, and there were three house officers there--we ran from eight to twelve, usually, in number--whoever had an automobile would take somebody else with him and we'd go down and get stalks of bananas for the monkeys and we made sure there were a few stalks for the house officers as well, We used to get some lovely giant cockroaches that came up on them, and occasionally exotic snakes and other things which was quite interesting. There were three things that Mallory stressed. One, know how to do it, whatever it was; see for yourself, don't take somebody's opinion on it, and consequently we spent very little time in textbooks; and do it right, After we had done our first few autopsies, he made us put on our best suits and no aprons and do an autopsy in that attire. It was a darn good way to learn how to do them right, Far too many used the old Bellevue style that Douglas Symrners used to use. 1 can see him now taking a double scoop of stomach contents out and say, l'Lousy alcohol they're using now," slop it on the floor and half of it over his rubber boots. There are all ways of doing things but that wasn't Mallory's way,

Page  34One of the rewards that I got when I was with Mallory was that he and Ernst were still friends in spite of the fact that he and Councilman were feuding, so that Ernst took me down to the Washington meeting of the pathologists and bacteriologists with the College of Physicians which was the outstanding event, and this let me see something of other pathologists and be introduced to people like [James] Ewing, Herbert Fox, the people up in Canada, [Howard] Karsner of Cleveland, who made a very great impression. experience about universities and medical schools. Mallory was very cynical because of his Dr. 0.: Because of his feud with Councilman? Dr. W.: Yes. He told all of us a very wise thing, because I was a fairly trusting lad in those days: Don't ever work for a university unless the university needs you more than you need it and preferably don't ever take a single job with a university, He was thinking of his advantage of being able to move down to the Boston City Hospital and keep his prestige, salary and everything in spite of the very raw way in which Councilman had treated him and forced him out of the depart- ment. I'd known enough university politics in hearing my grandfather and father talk at home. Grandfather used to say that the Clover Club could have learned a great deal from the ecclesiastical politicians. Boston University had a theological school so he was in contact with the Methodist bishops a great deal and had an interesting relationship with the succession of cardinals that came along at that time because this was long before the ecumenical days and if you were to call an

Page  35average Irishman a Protestant that was the worst insult, [End of Side 11, Reel 11 [Side I, Reel 21 Dr. W.: Before we get too far away from medical school, I guess it would be a good plan to go back and speak more about some of the faculty in the medical school at that day and the student's-eye view of the various faculty members that we had, Anatomy as I had already mentioned was our chief bugbear, and John Warren was Professor of Anatomy. He was in the direct line of John Warreni? that had come continuously since the founding of the school in 1797. s Dr. 0.: Is there any linkage between your Warren family and the Warren surgeons and anatomists ? Dr. W.: You have to go back to the Revolutionary times. We were cousins back in that day. Incidentally, beware of anyone that tells you that he is a descendant of Joseph Warren because he was still a bachelor when he was killed, John Warren was a very large and impressive man who wore steel-rimed eyeglasses looped to his vest pocket with a black ribbon and he would give perfect didactic lectures and used still a number of the papier- mzche' models that Oliver Wendell Holmes had had made in France to teach anatomy by. They were about the size of my desk here and we learned

Page  3636 all of the foramina and what went through them, We learned every minor muscle and in the same way we had a very excellent lecturer in histology, Professor [John L.1 Bremer, who wrote a textbook of histology, he and Professor [Frederic T.1 Lewis, jointly, which is still the original ancestor of John Fawcett's Structure of Cells now. very dapper, had a waxed mustache twisted at the ends. Back Bay, would walk back and forth. Harvard Club for lunch every noon. Excellent microscopist. Not inter- Bremer was Lived in the Would usually walk down to the I ested in research and fitted the student's idea of a successful histologist very well, cell and all what the cell could do except we got no genetics at all and we learned chromosomes thoroughly from studying mitotic figures, but we did not learn the right number of chromosomes. You remember this wasn't known until--what was it, less than twenty years ago. We learned very thoroughly all the parts of the The various surgeons would come in and aid in the anatomy and help us with the stiff and these were the breath of life that sort of kept US going and taught us what we were learning these things for. One I recall named [Tom W.1 Harmer, a general surgeon; there was a chap named Channing Simmons who was a general surgeon and had the ability to draw beautifully on the blackboard with both hands simultaneously, and he could put on quite a show for US. Charles C. Lund also was an excellent teacher in anatomy. Frederic T, Lewis was extremely interesting, I became very fond of him later on, but he was very gruff. He was Scotch. He lived only for his work. He spent all his evenings over the microscope or writing. a

Page  37He collected old medical books and later on I: learned a lot about old medical books from him. But he was very crusty, typical hard-boiled Scotch pedagogue and we avoided asking questions of him whenever we could, try to get somebody else to question. He was quite unpopular with the students although an extremely able and actually a very kindly man when you got acquainted with him. That first year was a very grim year. cology, was the saving grace for us because he would talk to us infor- mally from time to time and give us a little idea why we were learning all this tripe and told US something of the clinical problems and the sort of things a doctor was called upon to do. We discovered the Warren Museum early and that had a wealth of extraordinarily interest- ing specimens of osteology, preserved specimens of various sorts, wax models beautifully painted, even some glass models as well, Of course we were all intrigued by the crowbar skull and we all knew that John Collins Warren's skeleton was there and the more fortunate of us had a chance to see it. the present day. Worth Hale, who was Assistant Dean and a Professor of Pharma- I'm sorry that medical museums aren't popular in Dr. 0.: No, it's sort of something that's passed away, I fear, except the Army Medical Museum. Dr. W.: I should say physiology and biochemistry were the two other major subjects. Walter Cannon in physiology whom we greatly admired as a man and who could talk individually to us in very inspiring ways, but was the most god-awful lecturer that ever was. Even someone keenly interested in the subject would go to sleep after the first fifteen or

Page  38twenty minutes, He was very good in the lab but the things that saved our neck was that they had several other chaps of whom Percy [Go] Stiles was the best one. He was a teacher through and through and we learned a great deal of physiology from him. We had a few cat and dog experi- ments but mostly were with frog muscles and turtle hearts. One thing that I did learn to do in physiology was to read journals and I started reading the physiological journals then and that led me into the path journals and others. I began to realize that there were people who knew something about the subject other than our immediate professors . The second year----- Dr, 0.: May I just ask, did you, you had contact with L, J, Henderson, did you? Dr, W.: No, that comes in my third year, He was in the physical chem- istry area and did not have anything to do with the first year students. Otto Folin and Cyrus Fisk, Fisk was very quiet but knew structural formulae forward and back. Folin was a very dry Scandinavian, A very able methodologist and a very sharp tongue. We were all new and green and I recall one of my near neighbors was a chap named, Derrick Vail, who subsequently became the leading ophthalmologist in the country, you may have heard of him, and one of the first things we were required to do as a lab exercise was to determine the physical characteristics of urine and to do a sugar test, Of course everything was in confusion in the lab. Folin would be walking up and down behind us and Vail got more and more flustered and Folin took a perverse delight in this and

Page  39finally he said, "Vell, Vail, vye don't you do something?" Vail turned around and said, "God damn it to hell, get out of here and give me a chance!" walked off. In this same exercise another of the chaps very foolishly walked up to him and said, "Dr. Folin, where do we get the urine specimen?'' Folin said, "So young to have a stricture." [Laughter] Well, Folin very fortunately just turned on his heels and Folin was a very, very singularly devoted man. you know his story of how he developed these methods. I don't know whether Dr. 0.: Not in any detail, no. Dr. W,: One of his classmates to whom he was very greatly attached went into a hopeless depression and was in McLean Hospital, in a completely hebephrenic state. Folin kept him alive for years by feed- ing with a stomach tube everyday and, figuring out how to feed him and what to feed him and so on, he became interested in the methods of urine and fecal analysis, later blood analysis, and this was the stimu- lus that led to his work with Wu. Fisk was more of a theoretical type biochemist. He gave very brilliant lectures, but again lectures that were hard to stay awake through. Folin on the other hand would keep US alert all of the time. He had had a trigeminal neuralgia and they had done a section of the nerve which gave him a very sardonic appearance with a very extensive scar and he really put the fear of the Lord into you. Wolbach and Ernst I've already spoken of, Ernst was a very courtly

Page  4040 Boston gentleman. Street in the Back Bay; a few lived out of town. Ernst was a great linguist, with Pasteur and gave you a real feeling of the early days of bacteriology. iology which we saw at the Boston City--in those days you'd go on the ward and smell the typhoid case and we had--oh, when I was doing diph- theria release cultures I'd probably be doing a hundred and twenty-five every morning and things of this sort. I suppose I must have autopsied during the time I was at City 150 diphtherias and about the same number of scarlet: fevers. Most of the faculty lived on the waterside of Beacon He had been a student of Koch and of Eberth, Had visited When I was able to combine this with the need for bacter- Ernst's brother, incidentally, was an accountant named Ernst who estab- lished the present Ernst and Ernst accounting firm. Very able. Interesting people. Very fine and quite typical Boston Brahmin type, [William T.1 Councilman was Professor of Pathology and a very interest- ing chap. He had come from Hopkins and was regarded by Mallory, [James H.1 Wright, the Boston group, as somewhat of an interloper and as somewhat more convivial than a faculty member ought to be. He would sometimes have beer with the students, He had a wine decanter in his office. He could talk beautifully and readily. He would never prepare his talks and the thing that finally precipitated the break between him and Mallory was about six o'clock one afternoon Councilman said, "By the way, I've agreed to give a lecture to the biology students at Wellesley College tomorrow morning at nine. I've got to go down and

Page  41see my lawyer instead. was very meticulous. When he was going to give a paper at the Associa- tion I've seen him take months preparing for it. He would write it, rewrite it, learn it by heart. He'd take maybe 150 lantern slides in order to have 10 good ones and really make a production. This happened to be the culmination, according to Mallory at least, of the reason that the break between them came. Fortunately, as Councilman began to drop out of the picture, several of us who'd gone down to the City and worked with Mallory were able to act as ambassadors and bring Mallory back into the fold after Councilman dropped out. Councilman was just the opposite of \Jolbach. Will you give the lecture for me?" Mallory Wolbach looked just as neat and trim as he does there [referring to a portrait on his office wall]. He's wearing a white coat there, When he wore a suit coat, when he lectured, he always had a red carnation in the buttonhole. He gave beautifully ordered lectures. Very bril- liant. Gave us the best correlation between bacteriology and pathology that anyone could ask for. He was quite an artist. Very fond of horsemanship, Left the Back Bay and moved out to Sudbury and enjoyed his farm out there a great deal as the soul of the Hunt Club and so on. He was an astonishing contrast to Councilman. Councilman was the typical Southerner who just didn't give a damn about anything. lecturer's chair out from behind (the lectures were in amphitheaters) and bring it out in front and he would wear an old sweater, usually with He would come into give his lecture and he'd hold the

Page  4242 one or both elbows out, and he'd lean back in his chair and hook his thumbs in the sweater sleeves sometimes or in his belt most of the rest of the time, and give a very witty account that had some connec- tion with the subject of pathology we were studying, We enjoyed his talks but learned very little from them, He was a very good pathologist, but he was at his best at the microscope rather than as a lecturer. Reid Hunt made a great impression on us in PhariXiCOlOgy. He was par- ticularly interested in the opiates and their pharmacology and gave us a very complete and thorough grounding in that, He knew so much more pharmacology than these present-day birds that it's just utterly pitiful, When I think the way the NAS is floundering around on the efficacy of drugs, it's a great shame there aren't more people of his type available , We also began to get a little introduction to surgery and to medicine. [David Le] Edsall gave us a few introductory lectures in physical diagnosis and Harvey Cushing gave us a few introductory talks in surgery, When we could, we would sneak out in spare time and try to watch a portion of one of Harvey Cushing's operations. hour operations and we never could afford to stay through, but we could at least see what was going on, They were around six- During this year the Major Spooner who had helped us in anatomy that I mentioned earlier was in charge of so-called laboratory diagnosis, and we all had to pass stomach tubes on each other, take blood from each other, and so one He gave us a very good sound course in the things

Page  4343 that were current in those days. That was when the phenolphthalein test was new and when a great deal of attention was being paid in leukemia to the morphology of the white blood cells, but no interest at all on what happened to the patient who had the white blood cells. We had also some very good lectures in tropical medicine as part of our pathology from George Shattuck who gave us also a very thorough drilling in parasitology, and we learned that the hard way, the classi- cal zoology, the life cycles out of your head, had to identify the eggs and the worms and slides of each cycle. [Richard Po] Strong, who was a very great and fine man, would give us a few lectures. Sellards was his right-hand man--Andrew [W,] Sellards; he died of Rocky Mountain spotted fever while he was working on it later on. Very able man; a great shame to have lost him. Soon after that we made the acquaintance of Minot in a few lectures, who was very austere and a typical Boston Brahmin, very lank and lean because he was a severe diabetic, and an extraordinarily fine teacher, deeply interested in the patient. And Peabody carried this on. Francis Peabody was sort of his executive officer when we were students and we learned most of our medicine at the City from Peabody. I was impressed by the older clinicians. They could--I mentioned Ed Locke [Edward A,]--come in and take one or two sniffs and say, "Show me where your typhoid case iso" Or he would say, "This man has an aortic stenosis" just by standing and watching him for two or three minutes, Wonderful sense of clinical observation. We saw great numbers of patients at the City. The City was the popular place in my day because at the [Peter Bent] Brigham

Page  44you only saw very few patients--it was a small hospital, and at the MGH [Massachusetts General Hospital] you saw a relatively few patients, but there were thousands of patients at the City and you really got your nose rubbed into things there, One minor amusing episode came in our third year when we were taking the Cabot case records--or they weren't Cabot case records then, but they were Richard Cabot's medical clinics, and he kept hammering on the follow-up idea, and [Ernest A,] Codman down there kept hammering on the follow-up in surgery. He was one of the founders of the American College of Surgeons. We learned a great deal from those clinics. You may have heard of Stuart Mudd; he was a Professor of Bacteriology at Pennsylvania for many years. to be sitting in for some reason--he wasn't in our class, he was older than we, I think he was a house officer at the General--he was sitting in at this particular clinic. He had a cold at the time and he was always an eager beaver and he was sitting in the front row and he pulled this roll of toilet paper out of his pocket, smoothed out a couple of sheets on his knee , tore it off, smoothed out a couple more, tore it off until he got about four layers. By that time everybody was watch- ing him and he picked it UP and blew his nose, which was a very novel and unusual thing then. By then, of course, even Cabot had stopped to look at it and said, 'Thank God, Mudd, I thought you were going to do it here!" Incidentally, Mudd went down and talked with the paper people and that was the origin of Kleenex! before it was worked out, Those were very, very good Mudd happened It took quite a number of years k

Page  45Dr. 0.: You were in on something ra.ther unique; the origin of the idea for Kleenex. Dr. W.: Hugh Cabot was Professor of Urology and was a very trenchant individual. We were all scared stiff of him and his favorite saying was: There are three kinds of fools, fools, damn fools, and my brother Richard. He was well-meaning, very good, but terribly hard on students and house officers alike. The fourth year I had surgery at the Brigham because I was so impressed with Harvey Cushing. Johnny Homans who was very good in circulation. Homans, when he was operating, was one of the nastiest--he was a good operator--but he was one of the nastiest and the foulest mouthed men I have ever heard and it took a very strong stomached operating nurse to stay with him, We had a little work with him and some work with We had a very peppery boy in my class who was Henry Christian's nephew and not prepared to take very much. He came from Georgia, and he was helping Homans as a student and he loosened his hold on the retractor a little--it was a long tedious operation, Homans was a very meticu- lous, slow worker. Homans turned on him with a number of foul epithets and Henry's nephew said, "Dr. Homans, if this retractor were not in the patient's belly, I'd sink it in your goddamn head!" him a minute and stopped and was taken aback, had a twinkle in his eye, said (he always talked with a lisp), "Thath the thpirit, boy, thath the thpirit!" [Laughter] Passed it off very well, Johnny looked at

Page  4646 Henry Christian also made quite an impression on us. He was originally one of Mallory's interns and turned into an inter- nist from a pathologist almost over night. He actually took three months in a Paris graduate school to learn how to use a stethoscope, primarily, They were a very good group. Then there was a urological surgeon, very good, named [William C.1 Quinby, at the Brigham from whom we learned a fair amount. He was very good, Our psychiatry came from McFee Campbell, who was a Scotchman, suave, rather dour, very prominent in the psychiatric circles in those days, and we learned the rote-type of psychology which was a cross between Jung and a smattering of Freud, and not much of anything else. When I think back on it, it was the most atrocious teaching, the most atro- cious examples before us you could imagine. I kept a record of the cases I saw at the Psychopathic Hospital, Over 75 percent of them were GP [general paresis] and nobody did anything for them nor thought of doing anything for them. fever therapy. I think it was two, three years later that General Motors' Kettering worked out the first warm temperature chamber for fever, then soon the inoculation with the vivax type of malaria came in, and the real advance came, of course, when penicillin came. But this segregation of the mental patient in mental hospitals, with only psychiatrists to look after them, was the most god-awful thing that ever happened and it's still happening to a considerable degree, I think it's only when you get the patient back in a general hospital will it really work, They hadn't even started to think about the

Page  4747 1 I think some of the people that impressed me most were not the ones I studied under, but the ones through Ernst and other of my acquaintances I was able to work with like Elliott Joslin who knew more about diabetes, I guess, than anybody in the world and irritated all his colleagues because he could save some coma patients even in the preinsulin days when they died a hundred percent at the Peter Bent Brigham and the Brigham people just couldn't forgive him for this. They literally wouldn't come over and learn how his methods were. They were a11 con- vinced that Warburg's ideas of metabolism were the only ones that were worth anything and you had to be damned scientific about it. Similarly I had recognized by the time I'd been a second year student that the ablest surgeon in town was Frank Lahey and through Dr. Joslin when 1 was house officer over at the Deaconess--that was where Lahey had most of his patients--so 1 was able to get acquainted and work with him, These two men had an enormous influence on me. [ pause1 Dr. We: It was quite evident to me that, just as is the case now, one frequently gets more medical knowledge outside of the classroom than in the classroom, and that the opportunity to see how some of the leaders in the field work has been of very real value. To go back to the resident days. lasting associations made at that time. who became Professor of Pathology at Peking Union, Then we had had Arthur W. Wright, now the Secretary of the New York State Board of There were some very important and I've already mentioned Dr. Hu h

Page  4848 Registration, in Medicine who had been Professor of Pathology at the Albany Medical School for many years; Dr. Charles F, Branch, sub- sequently Professor of Pathology at Boston University and now Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Maine; Dr, Fred Stewart who has been for many years pathologist at the Memorial Hospital in New York, Dr. 0,: He was a classmate of yours as well, was he not? Dr, W, : Yes , and Dr. Ralph MacLeod, a surgeon down in Brockton whose son married my older daughter. Incidentally, relative to that, my third year chore in the Harvard Medical School was doing a sanitary survey. We were supposed to take a small town near Boston for this purpose, I worked with Dr. Rosenau in this who was the world's expert in sani- tation at that time, I remembered that I had always admired and thought very highly of one of my classmates, a girl who came from Rochester, New Hampshire. She typed and apparently made a good impression because the Rockefeller Foundation used this as a model of what a student sani- tary survey ought to be. Dr. 0.: I noticed it was published by the Rockefeller Foundation in 1924, Dr. W.: I was very much amused by it. When I graduated from medical school, we got married and her cooking was another of the aids that frequently enabled the house officers to survive in those days. After the City Hospital days, 1925, the wanderlust got the best of me again and Alice and I went to Europe, chlefly Paris, Strassburg, Switzer- land, and northern Italy. In Paris I was greatly interested in the

Page  4949 pathology practiced, especially the pathology c)f tumors, and also was interested in the medical-legal system that was a legacy of Bertillon and had been developed by successive prefects of the Seine over the years. I had a very nice series of trips through the Paris sewers with them that were of a great deal of interest. I worked at Strass- burg with Pierre Masson and was very much impressed by his wonderful histologic techniques and this contact I was able to maintain when he came to Montreal later. Strassburg, of course, is the site of Von Recklinghausen's Museum, one of the finest anatomic museums that I have seen and made a great impression on me. I was also impressed that some of the wards still in use dated back to the 13th century, and the relatively primitive state that the patients were willing to put up with in order to get necessary surgical procedures carried out. It couldn't help but be impressive, I remember that the feeling was very, very strong between the French and the Germans. They showed a few U,S, movies, trilingually--of course this was the silent movie day--and they would dub in French and Alsatian, but it was not permissible to speak German in any sensea In Switzerland a very high quality of pathology, especially pathology of the thyroid gland, was carried on. I was interested in this because of the preeminent surgery that had been done by Lahey on the thyroid, We did some sightseeing and of course took in the battlefield of Verdun which was very recent in those days and you could still see a number of the trenches where the bayonets showed over the earth. It's hard

Page  5050 to realize in a few acres that close to one million men had died. It was one of the most striking demonstrations of the futility of war that I think anyone could ask for, We greatly liked Switzerland and enjoyed many of the places there because we'd heard our parents and grandparents talk about them and to see them for ourselves was extremely interesting, The neatness and orderliness and friendliness of the Swiss was very striking and the cheapnesso In France we were somewhat uncomfortable all the time because the French knew that they had cheated the GI's and consequently were ill at ease with Americans as they came in, although I have subsequently made a number of friends in France. In talking particularly with the people in the Prefectural Office in Paris, the cynicism and the thievery of the more greedy type of Frenchman came out very unhappily. One learned soon to check his bill very, very carefully. Then against that you would occasionally find someone who was very appreciative of what America had done and was good to all Americans. Masson himself was more or less anti-American, He thought that the only good pathology was that of his own school and the Aschoff school. When I came back to the states I joined the Department of Pathology (this had been arranged before we left) at the Harvard Medical School and I found that I liked teaching and research very much indeed, Dr, Wolbach, who was then head of the department, was very good in giving me space, material, and things to work with, dency I had been impressed by two things: During my resi- one, that no one knew very

Page  517 51 much about the pathology of diabetes, aside from Dr, Opie's work that Dr. Joslin had been very much interested in, an8 this got a shot in the arm from the discovery of insulin, The first case to be treated with insulin in the United States was treated by Joslin at the Deaconess-- a Miss Mudge. She made a great impression on me because she had been treated by total dietary regulation up until insulin and was so weak that she could not, quite literally, even lift a finger, At the end of ten days, she was up carrying trays around for patients, She was not the first American to be treated because a doctor up in Rochester, New York had gone up to Toronto and had been treated by Banting up there, So my experience in residency left me with this interest in learning more about the pathology of diabetes and particularly what was happening outside of the pancreas. Also while I was still a resident, at the Thorndike they had been studying several cases of Hodgkin's disease, and when I autopsied several of these cases, they had died not of their Hodgkin's disease but of the radiation with which they had been treated. irradiated, So this was my other field of interest. Apparently nobody knew what happened when anybody was Dr. 0,: That was the seed that was planted , right there, Dr. W.: What the underlying aspect of radiation pathology, radiation effect might be. So these were the two lines in which I had started to work when I joined the Department. I liked teaching a lot and had some very brilliant and able students. I found that they were a con- stant stimulus and very useful source of ideas, that it was very nice

Page  5252 later on as one traveled around to find friends in all parts of the world In 1926, Edsall came to me and said, "Look, the Rockefeller wants to help us get away from this segregation of preventive medicine from the rest of medicine and we'll try to inject some in every course, and you are it." I learned shortly afterwards that the reason that I was it was that this approach was given grudgingly by the faculty, that it had come only after a very bitter fight between Edsall and Cushing, who was bitterly opposed to the idea, and that Edsall didn't want to take any valuable person on the faculty and give them the job because of the enmity that it would almost certainly create with Cushing and the others, So this was what I waded into and it was a very interesting worthwhile experience. It cut into my research time some, but I learned a lot as to how people reacted and what would interest them; how to wheedle somebody into doing something that he didn't particularly want to do, While it wasn't at all good, we were able to come out with an eventual publication that is utterly naive and silly today, but it gave a little idea of how some aspects of preventive medicine could be worked into all of the courses. This was the first faint groping toward this integra- tion of departmental effort that loomed a little too overwhelnlingly in the Western Reserve approach, Then in 1927--I'd always kept contact with Mallory, his house officers to keep contact with him--Mallory called me up and said, "Look there are two jobs coming up, which do you think you would He always liked

Page  53like? I said, "Give me the one at the New England Deaconess because I like to work with Lahey and Joslin." In February, 1927, I maintained my contact with the school, but I shook this other public health aspect of the thing and moved to the Palmer Memorial Unit, a new cancer unit in a general hospital of the New England Deaconess Hospital. no real laboratory or pathologist until that time so it gave me a very free hand. We'd barely gotten rolling when the depression hit, and it was quite a job to keep things going, but we were able to and the hospital, for default of full amount of pay, was glad to give me time off and in those days travel was cheap so I could afford to travel around in the time off to other laboratories, [End of Side I, Reel 21 One is at the General, one is at the New England Deaconess." It had [Side 11, Reel 21 Dr, W.: In 1928, the example of the Deaconess in establishing a labora- tory of pathology led the New England Baptist Hospital to set up its laboratory and I became pathologist there as well, Dr. 0,: May I ask, Dr. Warren, prior to that time did they have all their pathology handled by a single institution elsewhere? Dr. W.: No, up until that time some of the Lahey Clinic patients had been taken care of at the Lahey Clinic, some of the patients for doctors on the staff of City Hospital had been taken down to Dr, Mallory's laboratory, There was a rather rudimentary clinical path lab so the

Page  5454 t decision was made instead of going to the cost of establishing dupli- cate laboratories, the tissues would be brought down here to the Deaconess, and the Baptist and the Deaconess have sort of paired off in the types of work done--some of the rarer tests done at one hospital for both. And this worked so well, later on the Harvard Health Service was included in the system as well, trying to keep down the undue duplication of facilities and personnel. With the concentration of work, it became necessary to have more help, and in 1930 Dr, Olive Gates, whose skill and devotion to duty were great, was added to the staff and the first of our groups of residents were beginning to come through, Actually, it was in 1929 that we had our first resident group. About this same time in 1928, Dr, Homer Wright retired from the State Tumor Diagnosis Service and the Huntington Hospital, which was an activity of the Harvard Cancer Commission at that time and these all were centered and tended to interlock to a considerable degree, there was a shortage of help at one or problems at one, we could bring the facilities of the other in to help. During this time also the work in the Department of Pathology continued but the hospital work had taken the place of my work in the public health field and some of the When research activities . As the laboratories grew and became more complex it was obvious that new and better ways of doing things were needed and so by virtue of the arrangement for time off that I had with the hospital, I was able to do quite a lot of traveling and was able to get help and suggestions from Dr, Karsner in Cleveland, Dr. Opie in New York, Dr. Ophuls in San Francisco, and Dr. Hunter at Portland, Oregon

Page  55and Dr. Ewing in New York City with regard to tumors. quent visits to these laboratories I was able to pick up worthwhile ideas and bring them back to try here at the New England Deaconess Hospital, able to look at a number of cases of diabetes that had come to autopsy and, together with several hundred that I had acquired, gave the foundation for the writing of the Diabetic Pathology that Dr, Le Compte and Dr, Merle Legg have been carrying on since, By making fre- I was particularly fortunate as I made these swings in being During the 1930s it was a very difficult time for research, I had been able to get some small funds from the Eli Lilly Company to aid in the research work and the Harvard Cancer Commission had some research funds available, so that various ones of the residents, Dr, Gates, and I had an opportunity to carry on some research while the other work was going on. With the completion of the text, Diabetic, it still left a number of questions unansweredo It was obvious that I didn't have the ideas, the time or the necessary equipment to carry on from there. It seemed wisest for the Joslin group, which later became the Diabetes Foundation, to undertake their own research to a considerable degree, although we kept in very close touch and worked together in subsequent editions of the Diabetic Pathology. As the load eased off in diabetes, it became easier to put more time and emphasis on the radiation side of the work and since ours was a cancer hospital, it was quite logical to learn a lot more about the pathology of radiation reaction and the pathology of radiation-treated tumors than we did.

Page  56Dr. 0.: You're referring now to the Huntington Hospital, Dr. W.: Both at the Deaconess and at the Huntington. Research was carried on at both places, of able house officers, many of whom have become professors of pathol- ogy at one or another of the medical schools, and there was almost always someone of them interested in some particular phase of the work either in diabetes, in tumors, or in the radiation, and it was very useful experience for them to engage firsthand in some research. The Hospital continued to be very hospitable and helpful--the New England Deaconess Hospital--to us, and made available a garage on an estate a few blocks away, over on Kent Street, that permitted us to carry out experiments that there wasn't room for in the laboratories. Over a number of years this eventually evolved into the Cancer Research Insti- tute that New England Deaconess continues to operate, I was very fortunate in having a fine series In the late 1930s Harvard became increasingly concerned as to the threat the categorical research pretended to offer to its departmental struc- ture. For this reason and also because of expense, it was decided to close down the Huntington Hospital and to move its research laboratories in the metabolic and biochemical fields to the Massachusetts General Hospital where Dr. Joseph Aub had always been associated with the MGH. The pathology together with the State Tumor Diagnosis Service was moved over to Building E of the Harvard Medical School with Dr, Gates and me. Still later it was moved over to the Cancer Research Institute when its facilities were available,

Page  5757 In the late 1930s, more and more people were going into the specialty of radiology. The potentiality of the radioactive isotopes were begin- ning to be realized and the first therapeutic use of radioactive isotopes was with Saul Hertz at the Massachusetts General Hospital with 1-131. This was promptly followed by John Lawrence at the Donner Lab with his work with P-32. As I learned about this from him I felt that it and others of the isotopes deserved to be explored, so we started in work with radiation effects on animals and then in the late 1930s with acute leukemia which was the most hopeless and rapidly progressing of the tumors at that time. Remissions were obtained but no cures, of courseo There was just enough encouragement to become convinced with the work that Hevesey and people from his school had been doing, and work that some of the French had been doing with Joliot Curie's material made it look as though this were a fertile field for fairly intensive work. I set to work gathering all the known facts that could be readily accumulated with the library facilities we had here and they were excellent indeed, to try and work out what the effects of radiation on normal tissues were. This resulted in a monograph that was pub- lished serially in the Archives of Pathology starting in 1940, When a couple of years later the Manhattan Project began to take shape, this was quite useful grist to the mill there. Now I've got to sort of backtrack and overlap. To turn to the military side again, I realized from my own experience in World War I and in the contacts that I had with some military officers in the peace years that it was not the best type of medicine that was being practiced in

Page  5858 the armed services. Because I had been in the Army I felt that the logical thing to do was to go into the Reserves as a Medical Officer, which I did. The further I got in this, the more I realized how badly prepared we really were, how dependent on the Reserves the Army actually was--as far as medical help was concerned--and how badly the Army was then tied up by red tape. So I began to be convinced that the Army could see things only through the eyes of the batallion and the regimental surgeon and had no potentialities of being a place where a pathologist could really help, so I dropped out. When the war began to heat up and broke out in the thirties--'39--Alice and I talked things over and we thought that the best thing to do was to assume that the United States would get involved, that the Navy had a much more enlightened policy toward the utilization of specialists in their proper niche than the Army had or showed any signs of having, and consequently I joined the Naval Reserve. I was somewhat influenced in this because I am very fond of the sea on the one hand, and one of my cousins had been active in the Naval Reserve in World War I and had retained his interest in it, so it was fairly logical to join this. Very fortunately for me, the commandant at Chelsea, the First Naval District, had several hospitals under his wing and felt that upgrading of the laboratories was a way in which I might be fairly helpful. So before we got into hostilities I was able to do a little in getting the labs in somewhat better shape than they were. With the outbreak of war, since I was teaching at the medical school and was doing some chores in the First Naval District, the Navy felt that I could be most helpful by training some pathologists

Page  59which they very urgently needed and so they assigned to this hospital, to serve essentially as residents but with intensive one-year training, a group of able youngsters, people like Sam Hicks, who is Professor of Neuropath out in Michigan now, John Tullis who is head of the Overlook Hospital at Summit, New Jersey, They were able people and this worked out quite satisfactorily. I was given an appointment as the Assistant Medical Officer for the First Naval District but it was essentially to act as trouble-shooter in the laboratory area for Admiral McIntyre and the Bureau of Medicine and Surgery, This kept me on the road a good deal and Bill Meisner and Olive Gates kept things rolling here and I could come in on an occasional week-end and see how it went, I was traveling somewhat over a hundred thousand miles a year at that time which was a little on the rugged side, but it was a very fascinating thing because it let me learn what some of the Navy's problems were and what some of the real shortcomings of pathologists in relation to mili- tary medicine were. This continued, There was one very important interview. In early 1943 Stafford Warren came to see me and told me that I had exactly the skills that he needed for a project that he was involved with but couldn't tell me anything about and would I leave the Navy and take this on. Well, I told him I thought I was being useful where I was and didn't feel that while the War was on I could move around like a free agent and so I did not come into early contact with the Manhattan Project. before we began to bring uranium into the country and one of the places where the preliminary processing of it was done was at the Philadelphia It wasn't long though

Page  60Navy Yard, They got into some difficulties there with overexposures from uranium ore that contained radon and what not, So I was shipped up there and then by virtue of that and the other things I knew came in partial contact with Staf again and was sort of on the fringes of the Manhattan thing in that way. About this same time I began to hear about some very curious and unusual things. I had been doing a little industrial consultation and people like Kodak began to ask me, in light of my earlier publications, questions about radiation problems and I began to wonder eventually if something wasn't stirring as I saw the people that had gone, Herman Lisco, from here to the Argonne. radiation very thoroughly. Austin Brues, who worked with me at the Huntington had gone out to Chicago somewhere--we didn't know it was the Argonne then, Consequently this tended to sharpen my radiation interests even more. other than train a few people and iron out a few fairly acute problems. One way in which I was quite helpful was that I. S. Ravdin and Lahey were the Navy's two chief surgical advisers, and they had been asked at Pearl Harbor to come in and advise, Lahey, in particular, was impressed with how little was known about the pathology of burns and asked me to have a special look at this as the opportunity offered, I was able to learn somewhat about this, Other than that I was more or less of a fifth wheel as far as Naval activities were concernedo I was able to help them quite materially in regard to blood banking because we'd had one of the very early blood banks and I'd been able, for Ross McIntyre, He'd been one of my students and knew I think I really didn't accomplish very much for the Navy

Page  6161 to set up a number of blood banks here and there. Dr. 0.: This is the McIntyre who was at one time White House physician? Dr. W.: Yes, and the reason he could get things done was that he was the White House physician as well as being Surgeon General of the Navy. That will come into my story rather importantly later on. About this time at the Medical School, Wolbsch decided to retire and it was decided to run the Department for a time with a group of assistant professors who were in the Department. There was Tracy Mallory, Sidney Farber, Granville Bennett, and me, I think about the best assortment of pathologists who had ever stayed for years at the assistant professor level and who were suddenly given the task of running a department, This was interesting and then the post-War problem of adjusting from the double-up system that had been in use in wartime to the standard system. With a great number of people who wanted refresher courses, a great deal of remodeling of the Department had to be done and was done. a triumvirate of Tracy Mallory, Farber, and me evolved to sort of run the central things. Then when Tracy had to drop out of the picture in '48, those of us that were still there were all moved up to full profes- sors and continued on until we came up to the retirement age ourselves. Eventually, I was in and out of Washington enough after the Hiroshima bomb had exploded to know that there were no plans to follow up this study, medically, largely because the compartmentalization of the Manhattan [Project] had kept Staf Warren out of the picture. The bombs were

Page  6262 essentially a Los Alamos project and Oppenheimer, as head of the Los Alamos laboratory, was not a Christian Scientist but (he was an agnostic) had a Christian Science attitude toward taking care of himself and a deep antipathy for doctors--he regarded them as very unscientific. So there wasn't anything being done. "Write me a letter," And so I wrote him a letter and told him that I thought it was very urgent that the atomic bomb survivors should be studied, that we had grave responsibility and that every effort should be made to get competent medical teams into the area. He was very sympathetic. He said, "Look, I can do something about this. The Sur- geon General of the Army can't because he has purely a staff function and he can operate only within the region of a theater commander on the sufferance of that theater commander, and MacArthur doesn't want it in the Pacific, so he can't get that, The way to work it is this, I will attach you to the Naval Technical Mission to Japan and you go out to Bethesda (that's across the street from you) and pick out whatever team you want, signed we'll see you get up into Japan," At the same time he leaked to the Surgeon General of the Army, Norman T, Kirk, that he was doing something of this sort and the Army said: My God, if the Navy's doing this we can't let the Navy get ahead of us. the Secretary's level to MacArthur to assemble an Army team to do this and he picked up Colonel Oughterson who had been Professor of Surgery at Yale, Averill Liebow, pathologist at Yale, "Frenchy" Decoursy, who had been or was the pathologist at Hawaii at that time, George Leroy, and several others. I went to Ross McIntyre and he said, I'll send you to Okinawa and as soon as the surrender is So they sent orders from

Page  63Dr, 0,: Anyone primarily oriented toward radiation pathology? Dr. W.: No. Then General Groves became aware of the rumors and heard that this was going on and he figured that he couldn't let the Man- hattan Project be scooped, so Staf [Warren] was ordered to build a team. Now let me here pick up Averill's [Liebowl team. This is the foundation of ABCC (Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission) and it's important that we have it straight, My orders were cut to join the Naval Technical Mission to Japan in late August of 1945, and I left and had assembled my group with the help of Admiral H. W, Smith and Captain Haakensen, the Director of the Naval Medical Research Institute. I had built up a team of officers and meno On September 8, 1945 I left for Okinawa and waited there at Yang Ten Air Base until orders came through to move from there to Sasebo, Dr. 0.: You were literally waiting for the armistice? Dr. W.: Yes. Dr. 0.: At this point was there any attempt to unify the teams from the various groups? Dr. W.: No. They were all over the placeo Orders came through on the 23rd of September to leave Okinawa for Sasebo and at dawn the following morning we landed on a wharf at Sasebo in the Supply Basin of the Navy Yard. This was occupied by Japanese Marines. We then located the survivors from the bombing that had come to Sasebo

Page  64and started to work with them, During the next few days we, in coopera- tion with the Japanese, particularly Admiral Yasuyama of the Naval Medical Corps, were able to locate many thousands of survivors, to sur- vey the various refugee areas, and to enter Nagasaki itself, making the first systematic survey for fallout under the direction of my associates, Drs. Smith and Pace. The picture was complicated in Nagasaki by an out- break of Japanese B encephalitis . By the 26th of September we had located most of the survivors and with the help of the Prefect of Nagasaki and the Japanese doctors who had survived from the University of Nagasaki and Dr, Tsuzuki, Professor of Surgery at the University of Tokyo who headed the Japanese medical investigation, we were able to get a joint effort going with the Japan- ese. The Japanese had virtually no knowledge of sulfa drugs, had no antibiotics, of course, and were down to the most primitive supplies, so most of the wounds and burns were undressed, unattended, and most of the nursing that was done was simply done by surviving relatives. Old Army barracks and surviving schools were taken over primarily and we, on the advice of Admiral Yasuyama, the medical officer I mentioned, took over the former hospital at Omura for our headquarters operation. While we were doing this at Nagasaki, Colonel Ashley W. Oughterson from the U. S. Army Forces Pacific, and Colonel Stafford Warren of the Manhattan District, were coming into the Tokyo area. The group, other than Tsuzuki, consisting of Colonel Oughterson and Colonel Stafford Warren were held up in Tokyo and got to Nagasaki in late September joining our group which had been there working and got to

Page  65Hiroshima in very early October, This work was carried on until January of 1946. SCAP (Supreme Command Allied Pacific) established a joint commission combining the efforts of these four groups; the Japanese under Tsuzuki, Staf Warren with the Manhattan people, Oughterson with the Army people, and me with the Navy people, This joint commission finally pooled its results, While we were working the Strategic Bomb Survey which was an international group, heavy with UK, Canadian and our own people came through and provided us some help and we gave them a lot of information, Then each of the groups made a report to their respective agencies and each stressed the need of carrying on the work further, Colonel De Coursey and I realized that the AFIP was very well situated to handle the material that was sent over and so all the materials came there and Liebow was detailed there as head of a group to study in detail the material that we'd been able to give only general study to in the field. Then Oughterson, I, and others worked with him and eventually a monograph on the acute effects came out by Liebow, Oughterson, and myself, Then Oughterson and I combined the total effect picture in the National Nuclear Energy series, VIII-8, Medical Effects of the Atomic Bomb in Japan, published by McGraw Hill, This was delayed for a long time in coming out and getting printed through red tape and all sorts of things and did not appear until 1956, I should have mentioned that another of Oughterson's group was Cuyler Hammond, the statistician for the ------ Dr, 0,: He's at the American Cancer Society,

Page  66Dr. W.: Yes. I'm not sure that I mentioned George V. Leroy. He was from the Presbyterian Hospital in Chicago, one of the Army medical group. I think rather than trying to go into any detail in this-- because it has been written up in great detail--1'11 simply try to give a few general impressions of a purely personal type. The first thing that struck me was our landing in Sasebo, Because we had come up by seaplane we were among the first people ashore and the commander of this Marine detachment presented his sword to me and asked me to see that his men weren't killed, war propaganda that we were being fed and expected to be pretty savagely treated. Sasebo was deserted when we came in. The first thing we noticed was that after we'd been there some hours, nine to twelve year old boys began to poke around, and when they discovered that they were given chewing gum instead of being killed they became friendly and then gradually the people drifted back in over several days. Emperor, after the surrender you recall, ordered the population to cooperate, I was tremendously impressed by the cooperation that we had, not only from the scientific Japanese, but at every levelo It was a very impressive type of thing and very difficult at first because while many of them spoke English, they did not speak English very well, They were a little hard to understand, and when you asked a question of a Japanese his answer is always "Yes," to show that he has heard the question, then you were supposed to ask it again and then he'll try to answer it for you. So we were confused by all those "yes" answers that we got. They had been fed the same sort of The

Page  67All of the time that I was in Japan on several trips, I've never felt safer in my life. I could walk at any time of night through the wrecked streets of Nagasaki, Hiroshima, and feel perfectly safe, The only violent or hostile acts were those that were done by the various Koreans who had been in the work forces and brought to Japan and hated the Japanese and were a pretty hard group to deal with, The Japanese doctors were pitifully anxious for any medical news because they had been getting only information from Nazi Germany and had not had any knowledge of medical advances made since about 1934 and were utterly astonished at the things that had been happening, Under the terms of the treaty we were not allowed to treat any Japanese ourselvesc This was reserved for the Japanese physicians, But we could advise the Japanese physicians as to what to do, Of course, sooner or later this broke down and we were treating them just like the Japanese were. But on a theoretical basis we could, under the treaty, only investigate and advise. Another important impression was the enormous poverty of the country. It was unbelievable what they had been able to do in mounting a war against us, [End of Side 11, Reel 21 [Side I, Reel 31 Dr. We: Without the wholehearted cooperation of the Japanese we wouldn't have been able to accomplish a fraction of what we did, One of the things that's worth touching on, the fact that there was a very

Page  68bad typhoon that wrecked Okinawa and the supply depots and left some twenty thousand ton vessels blown a quarter of a mile in shore, and it had been equally bad in Japan, The investigating group from the University of Kyoto were all killed by a landslide that came from the torrential rains that accompanied the typhoon, In order to get slides for blood smears and to look at sections from autopsies, I had to send men out to get window glass in the city and cut it into slide shape. There were lots of things that we ought to have done that we just couldn't do. I mentioned earlier that the first fallout survey was made by our group and this was continued as we were able to trace the fallout downwind for about fifty kilos past Isahaya and on beyond, Smith and Pace really did a superb job in tracking this down. One of our main tasks was to try to decide how many of the casualties were due to radiation, how many to other injuries incident to the explosion, I won't go into that because it's all taken up in the Oughterson book, One of the extraordinarily valuable things to us--to the group as a whole--was that Colonel Liebow at Hiroshima was quite expert in shorthand and made shorthand notes every night, no matter how tired he was, of what had happened during the day and this he has transcribed and published in the Yale Medical Journal; it's a very valuable record. Because he put it dawn in shorthand, he could give many subleties of impression that I find it hard to capture at the present time ,, We were greatly aided in our work by not only the Japanese acientists and the civil authorities, but by our own Navy and by the Marines

Page  6969 particularly, In fact, it was the Marines that kept us in clothes and food a good deal of the time. I was particularly indebted to Captain Herbert We ("Trader") Horne, who is now Clinical Assistant in Obstetrics and Gynecology at the Harvard Medical School, With the aid of the Marines, by the way, I was able to retrieve and turn over to the Man- hattan District one of the sets of measuring instruments which had been parachuted down at the same time that the bomb waso That was quite interesting and there's a long involved story in itself, As I talked to eye witnesses of the bombing, several spoke of a parachuted object or objects that accompanied the bomb. I learned that there had been pressure recording and other devices dropped and that the Manhattan Project would like to recover them, I had told a number of my Japanese friends that I was interested in these instruments and would like to recover them, and officers of the Japanese Amy and Navy undertook the search. After some days we had learned that a parachuted object had been retrieved after the explosion by a secret organization and was hidden in a cave, possibly near Sasebo, but in spite of repeated efforts that was as far as we could get, About this time I learned that a United States Marine officer, Captain Fitchet, the nephew of my long- time associate Dr, Olive Gates (whose skill in pathology enabled her to take over for me and made it possible for me to go on active duty with- out interruption of the hospital services for which I was responsible) was stationed with his detachment at Sasebo, I told him of my prob- lem and with characteristic Marine dispatch I had the apparatus within 24 hours and sent it on its way to Los Alamos,

Page  7070 There was another interesting coincidence at Nagasaki--my associate , Dr. William A. Meissner, had gone on active duty in the Navy and was stationed on a hospital ship. This had been given the job of evacuat- ing Dutch and Indonesian prisoners of the Japanese who had been injured by the Nagasaki bomb so that his ship was in Nagasaki Harbor very soon after the Surrender was signed. Again to mention an isolated impression, my first approach to Nagasaki made an enormous impression on me. We had come from Isahaya, a road winding over terraced hillsides through farming country and entered a tunnel through the mountains which divided us from Nagasaki. This tunnel had been electric lighted and from one end to the other was a workshop with lathes and so on where war supplies had been turned out and of course completely protected from the bombing. When we came out the other side of the tunnel we shifted from a view of a peaceful countryside to utter devastation, At first we could not see very mu as the road wound down the hillside, but as the city opened to us a l;r c portion of it , particularly around the port and the Ohashi Torpedo Works, was essentially squashed flat. It was almost like stepping from the 18th century say, into the 20th century--the countryside on the one side and on the other, modern power. We found all the officials very ready to aid us. It was singularly difficult to get adequate eyewitness accounts as the survivors were overwhelmed and time and again they would say to us: "I saw a bright flash and then a cloud rolled over my mind." One remembers little

Page  7171 oddities at a time like this. For example, the Professor of Radiology was suffering from leukemia which he had acquired through failure to protect himself because he felt it was unpatriotic, while others were sacrificing their lives, to slow down his work by taking precautions and he was actually helped by the bomb. He got about three hundred R and it shrank his spleen appreciably and lowered his white count. Another thing that stood out was a board fence that held an earth bunker around the torpedo works and you could see etched on this the profile of grass and plants that had been burned into the wood there by the intense heat of the bomb, but heat that came and went before the grass had time either to wave or to wither. Smokestacks in general stood. They were earthquakeproof and round objects. Of the two at the medical school which is fairly near the hypocenter, one stood, one was snapped halfway dcwn. The steelwork of the Mitsubishi Shipbuilding plant looked exactly as though a giant had simply smeared it with his hands and laid it flat on the ground, General MacArthur set up these four groups as the joint commission officially and directed all groups to cooperate with us as a body; very helpful type of thing, and our sub-teams consisted of an American medi- cal officer, a Japanese physician, and then we had a group of either recent graduates or medical students to work with them, Our language officer was particularly helpful, We had in Nagasaki a very helpful chap, Major Sinclair, who smoothed our path out for us a great deal, In 1947 it became apparent that there should be continuing interest in the follow-up of survivors and President Truman directed that this

Page  72should be an ongoing responsibility of the National Academy of Sciences with the AEC as the sponsor for it, There had been a continuation during the occupation of a rather desultory study by several medical officers of whom Jim Neel, the human geneticist, and Schull, were the most active, and then the Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission was formerly set up following this activity. Austin Brues and several others went over for the Academy and then I followed them somewhat later in April of 1947, and we were able to set up permanent study groups, arrange for permanent facilities and to formalize the avenues of cooperation with the Japanese which were partly through the Ministry of Education and partly through the Ministry of Health. These avenues have changed somewhat since that time but the continuity of the work has been quite sound. Large-scale work really did not start until about the 1950s but there was sufficient work done to be well-aware of the progress in intervening times [ Pause1 There were several very important things that have grown out of the Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission's studies, Nee1 and Schull have made the most important study of pregnancy terminations ever made in man and failed to find any evidence in over eighty-thousand instances of an increase of genetic abnormalities among the offspring of the bomb's survivorso In addition the most valuable information in the reports of the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Energy and the reports of the National Academy of Sciences committees have been drawn very largely from the experience of ABCC.

Page  7373 On my return to the United States I stayed on active duty and was asked to aid in the organiz6tion of the animal experiments for the approaching Operation Crossroads , Captain Harold Draeger was the Com- manding Officer of this section, and we outlined a series of experiments to be done on goats pigs, rats and mice. The ship Burleson was assigned to us and we had it prepared at Hunter's Point for the animals and fixed up laboratory facilities. Captain Carpenter of the regular Navy was the Commanding Officer of the ship and very helpful and under- standing in the scientific needs, The experience at Bikini was extremely valuable because here information could be gained under carefully con- trolled conditions that enabled a number of the observations made at Hiroshima and Nagasaki to be brought into proper perspective and rela- tionship with one another. The great difficulty in handling a huge fleet of this sort with diverse purposes ranging all the way from military to medical and to propaganda as well--a number of newsmen were present--made it quite surprising that things went as effectively and as well as they did, direction was extraordinarily smooth and resulted in a great deal of scientific information and aided considerably in maintaining the uneasy peace through the evidence of power available in the American arsenal made obvious to representatives 9f other nations. The medical side did not bring out any new informatic i: other than from a quantitative stand- point, and essentially cc nfirmed the information that had been obtained earlier both with experimental animals and cn man. A great deal of experience was gained in the handling of radioactive fallout, in its measurement and in techniques of decontamination, The whole organization under Admiral Parsons'

Page  74I remained on active duty until the reports from the Bikini tests were completed and then returned to my laboratory and the Medical School. In 1947 the Atomic Energy Commission came into existence and in the fall of that year 1 was asked by Baird Hastings, a member of the Medical Review Committee of the AEC that had studied the work of the Manhattan District, if I would be willing to head the Division of Biology and Medicine. I indicated my interest in this and in November moved to Washington. Toward the end of 1947 I took on the responsibility of the Division of Biology and Medicine for the AEC with the helpful and will- ing cooperat ion of all the comissioners, particularly Lewis Strauss and Robert Bacher, and the general manager, Carroll Wilson, They were determined to have the best possible organization that could be appro- priately set up and function. I was very fortunate in obtaining not only splendid secretarial help but also a fine deputy in Dr. John Z. Bowers whom I had known during his active duty in the Navy. One of the factors which influenced me to take on the responsiblity of Biology and Medicine in this new area was, in addition to my own interest in radiation, the fine group of men that we had on the Advisory Committee for Biology and Medicine chaired by Alan Gregg, the then Director of the Rockefeller Foundation. During these early times it was important to get acquainted with all of the biomedical activities of the Manhattan Project which had been rigidly separated from one another and each had very little knowledge of the types of research going on in the other institutions. The policy of having national laboratories had already been determined by the

Page  7575 Commission and the problem was essentially how to coordinate the activities , Los Alamos , Oak Ridge , Hanford , the Argonne , and Brookhaven, with those of other activities of the Commission and hm to meet the need for establishing safe standards both for commission and contractor employees and the general public, The National Committee on Radiation Protection chaired by Lauriston Taylor was the most knowledgeable group in this regard, and they were most helpful to me, I was able to per- suade Dr. Taylor to become a part time director of our instrument and health physics branch. Very soon I was able also to persuade Dr, Charles H. Dunham of the University of Chicago to take on responsibilities for the medical branch and Dr. James Jenson responsibility for the biologic branch. A good share of our responsibilities were concerned with Civil Defense also and here I became quickly disillusioned and appalled by the lack of interest that the Armed Services had in Civil Defense and the scarcity of competent individuals giving their attention to this field, Carroll Wilson, as General Manager, was well-aware of the need for activity in this direction and was ably reinforced in this by Dr. Eugene Wigner of Princeton and Oak Ridge who has up to the present time maintained active interest in this field, In order to be sure that adequate information came from the Atomic Energy Commission to those charged with Civil Defense responsibilities , a Civil Defense branch was established in the Division of Biology and Medicine and a considerable effort placed in it. It was quickly apparent that the general tendency in government, and indeed the public as a whole, once the War and immediate post-War period was over was to go back to

Page  7676 things as usual and not realize the entirely new type of scientific world into which the development Gf the atomic bomb had thrust us. At first a major emphasis was on secrecy to maintain the scientific suprem- acy that we had and to regard this as all that was essential to be done. Soon, however, it became apparent to the scientists that the chapter dealing with atomic energy in science and indeed in politics had been merely opened, not concluded, and that it was absolutely necessary to have an active ongoing research program. was one of the areas that could be readily explained without endangering secrecy, the program and plans were presented in considerable detail to the Congress and these became quite well understood. Because Biology and Medicine One of the tremendous scientific advances that the advent of the atomic pile brought about was ready availability of almost unlimited quan- tities of radioactive isotopes. These could be used for a variety of things but were particularly adaptable to the problems of biology and medicine and consequently a large share of the programatic activity in regard to radioisotopes was concentrated in this area. An International Cancer Congress was held in St. Louis in the fall of 1947 and the AEC announced that it would make available without cost radioisotopes for cancer research and experimental cancer treatment. This had a tremen- dous effect on all of the delegates present and led to a revolution in the type of work done in this field, The radioactive isotopes made it possible to trace practicaily any biologic process from beginning to end relatively easily and accurately. from a black box into which raw materials went in and energy and waste In essence it changed the body

Page  77materials came out to a metabolic model in which practically every step could be followed in detail. Radioactive isotopes were as great an advance in their ready availability as the microscope had been in its day when it became readily available. become a multimillion dollar business, a sharp contrast to the days when the few available radioactive isotopes had to be laboriously made by means of a cyclotron. Today nuclear medicine has During the War, research had become essentially programatic, drawing on the reserves of basic research that had been built up in the preceding years. It was essential that this supply of basic information be replenished but there was not a great deal of interest in it. The AEC and the Office of Naval Research were the two government agencies that were able to be most helpful with regard to basic research, and for a time while AEC was setting up its own organization, it had the advantage of utilizing effectively the machinery and personnel of the Office of Naval Research. Two broad questions had to be resolved. First, were the national laboratories a great national asset to be preserved, or were they simply massive remains of the wartime effort of the Manhattan Project? Unfor- tunately, it rapidly became apparent that they had able and vital people on their staffs, that many of the questions which would take years to answer as regards to the medical and biological effects of radiation could be done only in large central institutions where faculties did not change too rapidly, where there were not problems of large numbers

Page  7878 of students. Also, the equipment used both in the biomedical area and more particularly in the physics and radiochemical area was tremen- dously costly, beyond what any one university could afford, so it was apparent that the national lab at which several universities could pool their efforts and use common facilities were a way of meeting the problem. The experiments in genetics at Oak Ridge could never have been carried out at a university because there would not have been con- tinuity of interest, continuity of personnel, nor the enormous resources required to gain information in the effects of low-level radiation from the genetic standpoint. The second was an even more fundamental ques- tion: How much basic research should the country keep alive? And this was sharply debated, Fortunately, the momentum of the AEC'S research project and those of the Office of Naval Research was such that a good deal of basic research was carried on in the period up to 1954 when Russian Sputnik electrified the American people and made them realize that they were no longer the sole significant scientific power in the world,, This led to rather frenzied efforts at times but nonetheless to a very sound development of extensive work in basic education which lasted almost up to the time of the students' revolt of the late sixties when a rising tide of anti-intellectualism, based largely on the unreasonable behavior of university faculty and students, led to widespread disenchantment of the population with them and with what they were doing. We are still suffering from this at the present time and it looks as though we will for some time into the future, even though the student unrest has quieted down. There are still many cf

Page  7979 the same faculty names in the news shouting the same old slogans and I think it will take quite awhile to live this down. To return to my own interests and activities. In 1948 I had become a Professor of Pathology, Harvard Medical School, at the New England Deaconess Hospital, and devoted a fair amount of time to the teaching activities there watching the trend toward increasing integration, so-called, of the medical curriculum which largely took the form of decreasing the amount of time given to the more exact medical sciences and increasing the amount of time given to the less exact, particularly psychiatry and medical aspects of psychology, Dr. 0,: You sound like Dr. Hastings at this moment, sir. You all share the same feeling. Dr, W.: I think both my colleagues and I who share these views have been encouraged by the fact that the students are smart enough to become good doctors in spite of, as well as because of, the way in which they are taught. However, I have become increasingly interested in the post- graduate instruction both at the resident level and that of older men, feeling that these are individuals who have learned and indeed earned the right to say what they want in the way of instruction and to obtain it, This is really very satisfying to work with them. While the bulk of the residents stay one, two, or three years only, I tend to go back to the view that Dr, Mallory held. than two years in the days when training was much less formalized than today, because he said that if a man stayed two years, if he was He would rarely keep a man for more

Page  8080 reasonably bright he'd learned everything that Mallory had to offer him. have his job. If he stayed around much longer Mallory was afraid that he would An added factor in the pleasure of working with the postgraduate students is the ability to see the concrete accomplishments that they make and the types of individuals they turn out to be. sessions that I kept in my office for a long time was a map on which all of my residents are spotted, and I am happy to say that a fair share of this hemisphere is reasonably well peppered with them, One of my treasured pos- This interest in postgraduate training received a good deal of impetus when I became a member of the American Board of Pathology. work with the American Board of Pathology, I felt there were important opportunities to upgrade the practice of pathology and to improve the training facilities for those who desired to specialize in pathology. It was important to keep the examinations current with the real prob- lems in the field and- at the same time to keep the questions from being merely hard but rather to be ones that would measure for us the compe- tence and independence of thought of the various candidates. reward of doing this work was that of becoming acquainted with the main- stream of young people going into the field of pathology and watching the directions in which their interests trended, With the increase of specialization during my time on the Board, the granting of certification in subspecialties became of interest 2nd importance, We were able to add such fields as neuropathology, hematqlogy, and forensic pathology, In this The great

Page  8181 for example, We've also seen the Boards in all branches of medicine grow from an experiment to essentially an accepted mechanism for the establishment of the qualifications of an individual. Along with this interest in specialized education, there was run as a minor avocation an interest in education at the College graduate level which I was able to indulge through being a member of the Executive Committee of the Board of Trustees of Boston University at a time when we were shifting from a depressed ---- [End of Side I, Reel 31 [Side 11, Reel 31 Dr. W.: ----- economy to an affluent economy. This is particularly vivid in my mind because I had known some of the older students at Boston University who had worked their way through college in the 1890s when five dollars a week was about the best wages a boy could aspire to; a sharp contrast to the almost five dollars an hour that some are able to acquire today. During this period of time, universities changed from purveying an education to a relatively privileged few to essen- tially mass education. This was necessitated by the increasing com- plexity of our society. amount of education, could adjust to the intellectual needs of a farm laborer, simply could not survive in a complex and mechanized social order such as we have at the present time. A large share of one's efforts and thoughts as a trustee were consequently focused on how to Individuals, who with a relatively slight

Page  8282 provide a reasonably valuable education to great numbers of people that did not have any need for it a few years previously. This multiplication of classrooms, laboratories, dormitories, provision of apparatus, provision--most important of all--of faculties placed extraordinary loads on the governing bodies of the various schools and through them on the community as a whole. Perhaps the most strik- ing difference that I have personally observed in education has been the shift from the preponderance of the Ivy League school to the pre- sent preponderance of the state-funded school. This series of increasing costs has not only greatly altered the universities, but the entire school system as well withthe present threat to the parochial and the private school systems as contrasted with those of the public schools, A diversity of direction in education is essential for a successful democratic organization and I hope some means can be found to avoid the uniformity and ultimate rigidity of a state or federal controlled educational system, As I look back, one of the constantly recurring themes has been my desire on the one hand to maintain my old skills and interests as a pathologist, ad at the same time to experiment with new types of activities, new needs, more knowledge as they come along. Perhaps a little like a starfish that has to retain its central portion but can grow new arms as the old ones get clipped off. The shift from interest in experimental radiation back to meet the practical needs of wartime; the abandonment of these with the development of peace; the explora- tion of new potentials as they come on the horizon, have added a great

Page  8383 deal to the fun and interest of trying to carry on my work, It's a good deal like having a reasonably good base of operations and then making forays from that base of operations. While I have been inter- ested in doing a wide variety of things, I've been fortunate in that I have always been able to regard the hospital here--the New England Deaconess, the Baptist--as a firm base of operations, been able to regard the medical school up to retirement as a firm base of operations and yet to indulge my interests in exploring new and tantalizing things that come along. deal like Hastings' continual interest in the electrolytes as far as biochem is concerned and consistently coming back to them. You were speaking of Dr. Hastings and it's a good October 11, 1972 Dr. We: Fmm the educational standpoint there are a few comments I'd like to add because I've had the advantage of having been a faculty member at Harvard for a number of years and having been a trustee at Boston University for a number of years also, so I have been able to see both sides of the road on this. First, it is natural and proper that faculties should be exploring new lines of thought and challeng- ing old lines and should experiment with new ways of imparting those thoughts and the older more traditional thoughts to students, Some- times the new viewpoints or challenges will be unpopular and this brings up the problem of academic tenure which has become so important to most academic people. It has become almost as difficult to separate a faculty member from his institution as it is to separate a civil servant from the Civil Service rolls, I have felt that one needs to

Page  8484 redress the present balance which is overwhelmingly in favor of the faculty member to the point where he may, in essence, be teaching so little or so poorly that he is cheating both his students and the insti- tution for which he works. The problem of how to retain the desirable features of tenure on the one hand and how to control the abuse of tenure is one of the most serious problems that exists today, as far as the academic scene is concerned. We might take for example the profes- sor who has abandoned his academic responsibilities to aid a particular political campaign or a particular cause. To take a special instance, let us consider the well-motivated professor, let us say, in the School of Theology, who has no moral qualms or hesitation in disregarding his contract with the university to teach a given course offered in the catalog and instead decides to spend his time in a series of civil rights marches, deserting his students and discrediting the university to the students which had offered an opportunity to study under him, One can consider this a high moral action from one standpoint, but in essence the professor is merely following his own whims. If he wishes to involve himself in the civil rights marches, fine, but he should either take leave of absence without pay or should resign his position before doing this. All too many of the academic people, who take what they consider to be the support of courses of action that are so highly moral that they transcend the ordinary obligations, are really in a sense trying to have the best of two worlds and tend to cheat both, I think that undoubtedly unless faculties tend to keep their colleagues more aware of their responsibilities, their obligations, that public

Page  8585 opinion will force the administrators and trustees of the university to set far more rigid rules of looking toward fulfilling of responsi- bilities than have existed at the present time. The other strong feeling that I have is that emotionally taken actions very rarely work out well, I have in mind the great wave of enthusiasm for enlist- ing large numbers of minority students in particularly the graduate schools, even though the students were obviously not qualified for this. This was unkind to the ill-prepared student because it showed him up as clearly unqualified for what he was trying to do, At the same time , it was unfair to the qualified students that were kept out of a limited number of places available and in addition, it led to a strong feeling of frustration among the minority students who tended to cluster together and not get the benefits of the new environment to which they were exposed, after the advantages and disadvantages have been pretty coldly balanced from intellectual and pedagogical standpoints rather than acting on an emotional or an assumed benevolent standpoint. The educational experiments should only be undertaken Still another important thing is that if one combines good students and good faculty, a particular format of course structure means relatively little. I have seen at least three distinct ways of approaching the structure of the medical curriculum during the time that I have been teaching and, incidentally, rarely has it been an improvement as measured empirically by the grades attained by the students in national types of examination. Now this may be the fault of the national type of examin- ation, but when the students in a given subject--pathology, let's say--

Page  8686 drop from first place in pathology for that particular school, to seventh place in pathology for that particular school, it is very hard to assume that the change has really been an improvement as far as instruction goes. The other educational point that I would like to make is that it is most important that private education continue as an independent entity in competition with public education because unless standards are not only set but maintained by the private institutions, the public schools will become more and more under the thumb of the politicians and will continue to provide a run-of-the-mill type of education. It is very difficult to innovate in any system that is politically con- trolled. It is very difficult when the taxpayers make their wishes felt through the state legislatures and budgeting to avoid a sort of comfortable middle-of-the-road approach. In a few systems there has been extraordinary success, notably California , although even that has had some minor setbacks, Well, I think that covers that particular phase of things. Dr. 0.: subject of education, the age-old argument, it's an argument of publish or perish, the qualities of an individual as a teacher versus his stand- ing in the research community. Could you briefly give your views on the necessity of a man's being a competent man in research in order to be a good teacher, or is there in fact in our educational system, par- ticularly in our graduate schools, a place for a man who is a competent All right. May I ask you one question while You're on the

Page  8737 teacher and can impart knowledge to students and yet does not really make his mark at the bench and in numerous publications? Dr. W.: Well, I think I implied this when I was speaking about the faculty of the medical school as I knew them in my student days where Walter Cannon as an outstanding researcher was relatively poor as a lecturer, and the students as a whole learned more from a very good teacher who had never done any research. On the other hand the course was balanced by these two types of individuals and I think that the researcher tends to have his influence perhaps more upon scattered students and often exceptional students that would not be challenged or sparked by the teacher, The great difficulty for the man who is only a teacher, a transmitter of knowledge, is that he is very apt to become content with his stock of knowledge and not to realize that the particular science with which he is involved has gone off and left him behind. For example, in pathology we have a number of capable, competent teachers of pathology who have not kept up with the advances offered through electron microscopy on the one hand, or perhaps imu- nologic techniques on the other. So I think one could express it this way: that as long as there is a mixture of the two involved in the particular discipline being taught , it's not particularly important which you have, I go back to Carlyle and the power of the exceptional, that it is in the exceptional that major changes are made in our state of knowledge rather than in the relatively smooth, undisturbed trans- mission of existing knowledge, question. I don't think I have answered your

Page  88Dr, 0,: No, you have. I think you have very well. Dr. W.: I think I'd like to go back to the earlier days a little and particularly my experience early with radiation which drove home to me the fact that science is international and that it is very important for the scientist to have international ties as well as firm ties with his own country. In the field of radiation effects one had to be international because when I first became interested there were about half a dozen people in the world who were concerned about the field, There had been excellent work done in France, in the United Kingdom, in Denmark, a little in Japan, and that was about all. In the whole of mainland Asia, in the whole of Africa, South America there was zero interest or awareness. This was true of Australia as well, When there are only a few people working in a field it is very clearly emphasized that what is done in one place has worldwide importance and impact. Just as I had deliberately traveled extensively in this country in the early thirties, by the later thirties and particularly with the stimulus of World War 11, one was forced to take an international viewpoint. This, of course, was strengthened by my experience with the concern with the atomic bomb survivors in Japan, and this led in part to my being involved with the United Nations as perhaps the best attempt that man's yet made to deal in orderly fashion with international affairs and to work with the Un Scientific Committee on the Effects of Radiation, As I look back on it now, it was the first really successful and effec- tively functioning scientific enterprise that the UN undertook. It was fortunately paralleled in the international field to some extent by

Page  89President Eisenhower's creation of the International Atomic Energy Agency which as a highly specialized international agency has done a great deal for the peaceful development of atomic energy throughout the world. In the UN Committee I was impressed by the ability with which scientific groups could lay politics aside to a very considerable extent and concentrate on what the scientific facts were. It was feasible to develop a real consensus and worthwhile scientific reports that have really served as important guidelines for the field. The last of these reports has just appeared, by the way. It is quite interesting as one reads the American Journal of Pathology or the British Journal for Experimental Pathology to see that there is in practically every number a very real international flavor to the contributions. I am sure that science is not free from politics anymore than the church is free from any other human institutions, but I think the scientist is so trained to deal in facts objectively that he can be convinced to change an erroneous point of view by the weight of facts, The erroneous theory of a politician can rarely be killed by argument and what one might call reasonable evidence, but often comes to a very disastrous type of mass testing as far as large populations are concerned. You mentioned something about the scientific societies. I've always taken an interest in these because I am what the average American would call a "joiner," I guess, and I've enjoyed the association of other scientists and the real pleasure of trying to work with friends for a worthwhile cause. I have been fortunate in being able to influence the course of some of the groups a bit and often have wished that I might

Page  90have been more effective in influencing other groups as well. There is almost a plethora of societies among pathologists, for example. We have the American Association for Cancer Research which includes a very large number of pathologists that of course is devoted to a highly specialized but highly important end. We have the American Association of Pathologists and Bacteriologists, the most venerable of the group. We have the American Society of Clinical Pathologists. We have the American Society for Experimental Pathology. We have a number of small academic groups for those interested in pathology. We have the College of American Pathology. So that all told it is a fairly highly organized specialty. Each Society has its special interest, As you know there has been an effort for some years to combine some of them; different types of joint meetings have been tried. But by and large the survival of the fittest, so to speak, has been the general rule here and the peculiar advantages of certain organizations have led to their persis- tence, their growth. There have been two very difficult trends. In the early days the American Association of Pathologists and Bacteriol- ogists was quite tightly controlled by its council and was essentially academically oriented and a group that hinged on the transmission of scientific information primarily and very carefully avoided any type of involvement with other activities. Some of the other societies were established to fill the needs left by this attitude on the part of the Association. As a member of the Association I think its course has been, in general, a very wise one for its particular purposes, On the other hand I think if one moves to a very narrow purpose, we might look at the American Board of Pathology which primarily has the purpose of

Page  91establishing the qualifications of competence for pathologists, but indirectly has had a great influence on hospitals and their structure through the demands of its training program and which has had a very important economic influence by preventing unrestrained competition in the area without regard for the individual competence of the competitors. One finds a group such as the College of American Pathologists which was established in part to bring together some of the associations and be sort of like a holding company with several corporations which has not quite fulfilled this role and at times has gotten overly concerned with the purely economic aspects and inadvertently, although somewhat pre- dictably, hurt the image in the public eye of the pathologist as a whole, I have felt that a society in the long run becomes responsive to its membership and the best thing to do has been to keep as interested as one can in as many of the organizations as one can in the hope of influ- encing their course. There are at times rather odd coincidences which turn out to have a good deal more significant effect than one might think. In the course of my work in Washington in the latter part of the War, I came in con- tact with a wide variety of scientists. As all people interested in the military, I could not help but be impressed with the enormous importance of air power as a means of carrying out national policy. This led to very useful helpful contacts with some of the members of the Navy Air Force and the Army Air Force, many of whom were concerned with the ultimate scientific potential that could be derived from a proper exploitation of astronautics. Among the acquaintances that I was able

Page  9292 to build up particularly around the end of the war and at the time that the Army Air Force was becoming the U,S. Air Force, there was an extraordinary series of instances, more or less coincidence , that dove- tailed in with one another in extraordinary ways. I had become acquainted with Colonel Pharo Gagge and Otis Benson, Harry Armstrong, the Surgeon General of the Air Force , when it came into being, and was very much impressed by the School of Aviation Medicine at Randolph Field and the fine work that it was doing. Because I was sort of shifting around in contact with various branches of the government and because I was only temporarily in uniform and had a firm base back home, I could be fairly freewheeling and was able to contact various people and various groups without having to go through official channels on this which had its advantages, One of the very important post-War activities was the expedition to Germany imnediately post-War to offer opportunity for work and refuge to considerable numbers of the German scientists. It was realized that one of the most important of these was the group that had been working on the German rockets and buzz bombs and obviously the ablest of these was Werner Von Braun. So a very important thing to do was, if possible, to bring Von Braun to this country and the problem was where to find a place for him to work if he wanted to comeo It seemed to me that the School of Aviation Medicine would be a very logical place, Unfortu- nately, the Navy had no interest at all in anything of this sort because this was opposed to all of their traditional approaches, The Army, with the exception of the Air Force, had the same point of view, So this

Page  9393 limited the choices, but it worked out very happily and well, and, as you know, Von Braun did come to this country and worked very happily, initially, at the School of Aviation Medicine. During this period, I made the acquaintance also of probably the ablest reserve medical officer interested in aviation problems, W, Randolph Lovelace, who was then at the Mayo Clinic and, incidentally, held for a number of years the world's record for parachute drop and demonstrated the importance of the free fall to get you through the upper air before you froze. This led to the Air Force's realizing early that as a new arm of the service and very much in the public eye, it had to make some fairly spectacular developments to justify its existence and it must harness the scientific advances and it very wisely set up a research and development command as one of its major activities and had a series of very able generals active in this areao They established a scien- tific advisory committee and because of the passing interest that I had earlier and because of my interest in radiation which had begun to loom large as one got into higher altitudes and less shielding from cosmic radiation, 1 could be of some help. So one of the most interesting and exciting of the advisory groups that I was on was the Scientific Advisory Board of the Air Force. We had more real geniuses to the square inch than I think any other group with which I had ever been fortunate in be ing ass oc ia t e d [End of Side 11, Reel 31

Page  9494 [Side I, Reel 41 Dr. W.: There was Von Karman, the world's expert in aerodynamics. There was Von Neumann, probably after Einstein the greatest of the modern mathematicians. There was Edward Teller and Ned Land, who was better able to think in broad concepts than any man that 1 have ever, ever seen, and he was equally at home in physics and chemistry, Dr. 0.: Is this the Land of the Land camera? Dr. W.: Yes, Oh, I could go on with the list, but it was a fascinat- ing and challenging group with which to work, We had no limits placed on the things we could dream and think about. For example, the tremendous e~tablishment at Huntsville was created very largely as a result of the scientific needs seen by this group. The head start gained here, the fact that Von Braun was already in the country and working hard and deeply interested was one of the things that gave NASA its start and helped to make possible the objective of getting a man on the moon within the sixties. One is often cynical about the effectiveness of scientific advisory groups for government agencies, but both as a government administrator when I was in charge of the Division of Biology and Medicine for AEC and as a medical man interested in science in the Bureau of Medicine and Surgery of the Navy, and watching the OSRD and the other activities in the course of the War, watching the HEW'S advisory committee struc- ture, I am convinced that it is a very important and wholesome thing

Page  9595 for the government agency to have an official encouragement or an official scowl from the private sector expressed by knowledgeable people, I think this is one of the helpful checks and balances. One of the reasons that the Atomic Energy Commission did so well WGS that it had a very sound structure of advisory committees with the general advisory committee as the key, the Advisory Committee for Biology and Medicine as the second most effective, and other groups. One of the things that led to the lack of public confidence in the AEC in recent years was the gradual downgrading of the quality of men serving on the advisory groups. I think this is only my own theory, but going by my own experience. Of course atomic energy was new and novel in those days, but I had no trouble in getting the leaders in American medicine as members of my advisory committee--Alan Gregg, Baird Hastings, Ed Doisy, people of that category--and on the rather wise rotational system that they have, you start to run out of leaders after awhile on the one hand, and as the mission becomes more and more old hat, it becomes increasingly hard to get the sort of individuals you want to really put the time and thought into it, My quarrel with some of the advisory committees who have done less well is that ordinarily this is because individual members haven't done their homework as well as they should and weren't giving the best advice that they were capable of. [pause] I was just speaking about the difficulty of times of recruiting members of advisory committees for the government. I have always had, thanks to my Civil War grandfather, a great interest in the Civil War and

Page  9696 among other things in the role that scientists and inventors played then and the fact that the National Academy of Sciences was brought into the picture as a government aid in wartime. I always had the feeling, perhaps inspired particularly by reading and rereading Vallery- Radot's Life of Pasteur a number of times, that Pasteur's intense patriotism as well as his interest in science and his willingness to apply science to practical problems as well as to the development of purely fundamental aspects was a real part of his greatness. I found this feeling very well expressed by Admiral [Lewis L.1 Straus when I got acquainted with him while working for the AEC. He expressed very strongly the principle that he had lived out throughout his life that everybody owed not only a certain amount of military service to the government but a certain amount of civil service as well. I think that this is true of the whole of a scientific comunity, particularly when the bulk of science for many years has been supported by govern- ment; they should be coming back to make some return for what they have received. This type of activity has led to some very interesting contacts. Recently one of the most interesting of these was as a member of the medical advisory committee for the Puerto Rico Nuclear Center--the joint enterprise of the University of Puerto Rico and the AEC. I was attracted to this for two reasons, One, that I have always been impressed by the need for us to become not only better involved but more intimately involved with the Central and South American countries, and this Center is oriented particularly looking toward their interest and participation.

Page  9797 Two, that contrary to the radical student of today, both the govern- ment and the university are better off if they are able to cooperate to some extent and I thought this was a very excellent means of test- ing out still another form of that particular cooperation. Fortunately, this has gone along very well. I was associated with it from '59 to '65 and it is still an active and viable group of major importance to the University of Puerto Rico and to the island as a whole which is increas- ingly forced to atomic energy as it has no natural resources and to support its population must have large amounts of power and under these circumstances atomic energy as a power source is the only answere This, I think, is working out quite soundly and well. The National Academy of Sciences is one of the very interesting advi- sory groups and indeed is a quasi-governmental organization. This is having a very interesting time at the present time attempting to rede- fine its role, its responsibility. They are having real difficulties in this, in part because for a time they--well until now--selected a number of very able people and sometimes the competition was so great that they would not select them till fairly late in life which leads to its becoming sort of an honorific society, I think if it were to really fulfill its role, it is perhaps best as sort of a supreme court in science where one can draw on the experience of the older scien- tists, just as the Supreme Court draws on that of the older judges and lawyers, to try and figure how best to bring to bear the influence of the scientific community on governmental matters. I think that Dr. Handler and the Council of the Academy are doing a very sound job

Page  9898 in attempting to redefine their role and the Academy's role and I look towards it being an even more useful organization than it had been in the past, In wartime--World War 11--it had been so largely honorific that it really wasn't very much help, as you know, and the OSRD and other more effective devices had to be established, But I think a rejuvenation is under way to some extent although when one thinks of the number of scientists in the country and the number of able scientists, to have to choose a thousand of them and all across the board makes it very difficult and again, since most scientists are long-lived some- what like most Supreme Court Justices, it tends to get to be an older and older organization unless this point is quite carefully watched, [ pause1 One of the very useful roles that advisory groups can play is exem- plified by that of the National Committee on Radiation Protection which has set standards both for the radiation industry and for the users of the products of that industry, standards that were at first overly liberal because of absence of adequate data but by the present time have been modified and established as being sound in practice, For the first time, radioactive fallout became a matter of interna- tional concern although it had been of great concern to those guiding the Manhattan Project. At the 1954 tests in the Pacific for the first time people not involved directly in an operation were exposed to and damaged by radioactive products. The crew of the Lucky Dragon who were fishing in the area (they always fish as close as they dare to the edge of the prohibited area), and the exposure of the P-angelap Islanders,

Page  9999 together with other factors, drove home to people the things that the scientists associated with the atomic energy project had been trying to tell them. The radioactive ashes--radioactive byproducts--were dangerous substances which needed to be controlled. And as is often the case, when people are slow to react, they overreact when they finally do and there was a period in the mid-fifties when there was overly great concern with radioactive fallout . The first United Nations Scientific Committee report served to put this in perspective, to quiet it down to a considerable degree. The extensive fallout from the Russian tests in the early sixties renewed the apprehension somewhat. I was greatly disappointed in our left-wing scientists at that time because they would shriek whenever the U.S. put a relatively small amount of fallout into the air, but they said nothing at all when the Russians put many times that amount of fallout into the air and far closer to inhabited areas than the U.S, had done. This drove home the fact that even with scientists emotion and sometimes even the desire for sensationalism can influence their consideration of facts. I had felt that by and large the proof of the pudding was in the eating. Consequently as the Director in Biology and Medicine--the first Director in Biology and Medicine for AEC--I was very much concerned with what the health of the contractors' workers had been and what the health of the survivors in Japan would prove to be, so focused a good deal of effort on these several things: The best quality of medical care ob- tainable for the AEC and the AEC contractors employees, the establish- ment of the recognized NCRP standards, the refinement of some of the

Page  100100 standards that had been used in Manhattan days because the state of the art had not permitted it earlier, and our continued observation of the survivors of the bombing in Japan, Along with this I was very much aware of the tremendous scientific potential of radioactive isotopes and to some extent stable isotopes as well that could be manufactured in the atomic pile or in the cyclotron and made readily available to the scientific community. I was very glad to have a hand in building up a network of research projects that were both exploiting the new tools that the AEC had made available and at the same time were adding to the sum of knowledge made possible by these new tools. This was an extra- ordinarily interesting and worthwhile experience. As I mentioned earlier we had OWR's (Office of Naval Research] help in this and then within a few months were able to stand on our own feet, We had inherited a very good going research organization from the Manhattan District which we were able to keep from disintegrating and not only that but reversed the trend and strengthened the organization. One other thing that became obvious to me because of my knowledge of the academic com- munity and that is that we had too great a concentration of excellence in too few places from the academic standpoint, and I was able to per- suade the AEC to take a very enlightened policy, They picked five centers throughout the country, apart from the major existing centers, and gave them for those days relatively large amounts of money and special encouragement from the "nearby" AEC establishments We were able to establish five. Starting with the East Coast we picked out the Research Triangle in North Carolina with Duke and the University of

Page  101101 North Carolina and this has flourished and paid off very well. Another at Rice in the Houston area and this in turn has paid off well and it was an important asset when NASA decided to establish the Manned Space Center at Houston. It also helped a great deal in the development of the graduate activities of the University of Texas in Houston because the University of Texas works on a somewhat competitive principle, If it sees an area going well in the private sector, it is encouraged to put more money in the state sector as well. The next was the University of Colorado and Ted Puck and his development of cellular biology which was the forerunner of molecular biology was perhaps the outstanding project there and this was cooperative with the University of Utah where we were able to get Henry Eyring, one of the ablest of the Colorado plateau scientists interested in the atomic energy things. This led to the establishment of the dog project at the University of Utah which has provided a vast amount of information as to the internal effects of radium, thorium, strontium and plutonium and paid off extraordinarily well. Then at Reed College in Oregon working on a somewhat smaller scale and aiming to interest the very bright college student in this field. All of these centers have proved to be very worthwhile, paid off well, Just as I think it is important to keep a balance between publicly supported education and private education, so I think that just as an agency needs its inhouse activities it must have its extra- mural activities as well, One of the strengths of HEW has been the fact that it has paralleled with the NIH and other inhouse efforts, widespread support in the private sector as well. It has proved over

Page  102the years to be a very sound, worthwhile sort of thing, These centers also have been very helpful to us in learning more about the effects of radiation, of atomic radiation in particular, and along with the AEC'S national laboratories have helped to establish what I think are pretty clearly demonstrated to be safe levels, We have in the atomic towns, for example, Los Alamos, Richland, and Oak Ridge, lower death rates , lower morbidity rates than any comparable nonatomic areas, Our experience has been parallel to that of the U,K,, indus- trial workers in the atomic industry have been healthier and longer- lived than their counterparts in the general population. Dr. 0.: I guess their overall general medical care is a big factor. Dr. W,: Yes, this is the answer really in part. They are better supervised medically but they are not subject to risks that would provide a deteriorating component. I have summarized in two or three articles the general findings in this areac I don't think perhaps it needs to be emphasized anymore, One of the occupational groups exposed to slight amounts of radiation but fairly frequently is the radiologist and along with my concern as to the health and safety and longevity of employees in the nuclear field, has been interest in the radiologist. When 1 attempted to study the radiologists , retrospectively, this was quite hard to do--the data just didn't exist, We had to guess at dosimetry and a considerable number of things. It seemed worthwhile to establish, with the help of HEW, after the National Academy of Sciences at first and now at the

Page  103103 Bureau of Radiologic Health, a radiation registry, taking radiologists as essentially the experimental subjects to see what their health, that of their children in particular, might be, and correlate that with the doses of radiation they received and use the pathologists who are about comparable as far as economic status, physical activity and other things go, as the control group, This is an ongoing study that I hope ten or fifteen years from now--it was established in the late 195Os--will be providing some very useful information. For relaxation, I've always enjoyed who-done-it's and part of this interest was initiated by a very colorful pathologist and medical examiner here in the Boston area, George Burges McGrath, who was as near an American-type of Sherlock Holmes as anyone could imagine, As a medical student it was my privilege to work with him on some of his cases and see how he went at them, the most noted being the Sacco- Vanzetti case which has been a source of controversy ever since and which impressed me for the first time of the singularly low ethics followed by some members of the legal profession. Some of the lawyers for the defense in the Sacco-Vanzetti case really used as low tactics as anyone could imagine. One even attempted to switch barrels on the revolver which was a key in the case to try to break down the scien- tific chain that had been established between the revolver that was used to shoot F. A. Parmenter and the revolver that was found in the possession of Sacco and Vanzetti. the bullets as they were removed at autopsy and the same bullets were the ones that were introduced at the trial. McGrath was an absolutely I know that McGrath personally marked

Page  104incorruptible type of individual . This interest led me to occasionally give the medical examiners a hand when microscopy could be helpful, and not infrequently the evidence so obtained proved to be the key in the case. This eventually led to my taking over the Department of Legal Medicine at Harvard Medical School when it had gotten into a rather bad situation. I had to attempt to figure out what ought to be done to reestablish it, and this was quite happily worked out, We have now a Department of Legal Medicine which involves the Law School, the School of Public Health and the Medical School and reaches far beyond the narrow field of forensic pathology alone, They had a great deal of help in this, but I was very pleased to be an agent by which the change came about. Never ever does everything go just as you would like it, but it worked out reasonably well, I think. There are several scientific associations that I've had that have been particularly helpful to me. The first, I've already spoken of, that is my lifelong association with Imine Page and his tremendous ability and initiative have always been a great deal of help and inspiration. It has been a great pleasure to have worked with him. It's interesting, both of us were sure, when we were working together in the early years at Hyannisport, that neither of us would ever be a doctor! Another has been with many of the people in the cancer field. In the early days, George V. Smith, of Yale, and "Pete" Little, with whom I was able to work very closely in establishing the National Cancer Act, the passage of which in 1937 really got the Public Health Service in the cancer business and opened up the continuing attack on cancer which has

Page  105105106 culminated in the present national goal of controlling cancer as exists at the present time. One of the people particularly helpful here had been Sidney Farber with whom I worked a great many years and who always impressed me by his ability on the one hand, and his utter selfless devotion to the cancer cause and particularly cancers of children. I don't think there is anyone that could have worked harder at greater personal cost to himself than Sidney has done here, The way he has driven on without regard to his cardiac difficulties where an ordinary man would have folded up years ago, has been an extraordinarily impres- sive and inspiring example, Of course, it goes without saying that anyone who works in the scientific area has to have understanding sup- port at home because without that he just wouldn't be able to function. That, however, is primarily a private concern of the individuals involved. A very natural outgrowth of the interest that I've had in the cancer problem has been to try to be a part of the organized effort in the cancer field and to work closely with the American Cancer Society. has been a very rewarding thing, I've been tremendously impressed with the ability and devotion of the great number of lay volunteers involved in this. They are the most selfless people that anyone could ask for. I have been tremendously impressed by them and their willingness to take, partly on blind faith, the scientific judgment of scientific groups that they have assembled for advice. This Well I think that has touched on almost everything.

Page  106Dr. 0.: Yes. I think a few comments about wl busy man, you've led a with who-done-it Is and 106 it would be very interesting if you would say at you do for enjoyment. You have been a very very busy career, You mentioned you relaxed so on, but I gather you are a sailor. Dr. W.: Well, of course, work is much more fun than anything else, but I do greatly enjoy salt water. boyhood summers at Cape Cod and I had a number of cousins who have liked salt water also, and I have cruised the Maine coast with them. One of them, an excellent navigator goes back to active duty in the Naval Reserve in World War I, when we had only a few wooden sailing vessels to try to protect the convoys the best that they could close to shore over here and had to use the Naval vessels in the open ocean. The fascination with the sea goes back a long, long time--learning to swim in it, learning the forms of life that exist in it, learning how to use it, take advantage of the winds and the tides, how to dodge the rocks and shoals and so on. It was very interesting. It is very relaxing to take a navigational problem like going in the fog from my place down at Waquoit on the south shore of the Cape to Cuttyhunk Island, let's say, and try to figure what to allow for displacement by tides and winds as you try to carry out your compass course. It's really a very satisfying thing when it works out satisfactorily and there is just enough uncertainty to always keep things interesting. Just this summer 1 was taking what 1 had planned as a very quiet, peaceful fishing trip and the engine suddenly began to heat. I checked over everything possible and everything seemed to work all right except that I was fortunate in spending all my

Page  107107 the water just wouldn't circulate. up an improvised cooling system and then I got to the boatyard found the power shaft of the water pump had snapped, but had snapped inside of the casing so that as you looked at the shaft to check it, it was spinning perfectly but it wasn't doing any pumping. There are always one or another sort of challenge coming up and it is rather good fun. Iwine Page and I owned a flat-bottomed skiff between us and we liked, on a particularly stormy day when we couldn't do much else, just to row out outside the breakwater where the waves were running fairly high, and row until we got tired and then anchor, and row some more and just feel that we were able to be there when the storm didn't want us to be, I managed to limp home by rigging Dr, 0,: That's really challenging the elements,

Page  108108 INDEX Albright, Fuller, 9 Cannon, Walter, 37 American Association of Pathologists Christian, Henry, 46 and Bacteriologists , 90 Clowes, George He A*, 9 Codman, Ernest A,, 44 American Board of Pathology, 80, 81, 90, 91 American Cancer Society, 105 College of American Pathologists , 91 Armstrong, Harry, 92 Coolidge, Calvin, 28, 29 Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission, Councilman, William T., 30, 34, 40 63-72 Cushing, Harvey, 42, 45, 52 Atomic Energy Commission, 74-78, 95, 99, 100 Decoursy, Elbert, 62, 65 Diabetic Pathology (The Patholoa Aub , Joseph , 56 of Diabetes Mellitus), 55 Bacher, Robert, 74 Bennett , Granville , 61 Benson, Otis, 92 Boston City Hospital, 43 Doisy, Ed, 95 Draeger , Captain Harold , 73 Dunham, Charles H., 75 Boston University, 2, 34, 81 Edsall, David Lo, 42, 52 Bowers , John Z, , 74 Elliot, Byron, 4 Branch, Charles F, , 48 Ernst, Harold C,, 29, 34, 39, 40 Bremer, John Lo, 36 Ewing, James , 34 Brues, Austin, 60, 72 Eyring, Henry, 101 Cabot, Hugh, 45 Farber, Sidney, 61, 105 Cabot, Richard, 44 Fisk, Cyrus, 38, 39 Campbell, McFee, 46 Fitchet , Captain, 69

Page  109109 Folin, Otto, 38, 39 Fox, Herbert, 34 Gagge, Pharo, Colonel, 92 Gates, Olive, 54-56, 59, 69 Goldthwaite , Joel, 31 Gregg, Alan, 74, 95 Haakensen, Captain, 63 Hale, Worth, 37 Hammond, Cuyler Eo, 65 Handler, Philip, 97 Harmer, Tom We, 36 Harvard Medical School , 27-31 , 35-48, 104 Hastings, Albert Baird, 5, 32, 74, 79, 83, 95 Hench, Philip So, 5 Hertz, Saul, 57 Hicks, Sam, 59 '"Hobo years, '' 14-27 Homans , John, 45 Horne, Herbert W., 69 Hu, Chen Hsiang, 32, 47 Hunt , Reid , 42 Huntington Hospita 1, 54 -5 6 International Atomic Energy Agency, 89 Jenson, James , 75 Johnson, Herbert, 8 Joslin, Elliott Po, 31, 47, 51 Karsner, Howard, 34 Kirk, Norman To , 62 Lahey, Frank, 47, 60 Land, Ned, 94 Lawrence, Ernest, 5 Lawrence , John, 5, 57 Le Compte, Philip Mc, 55 Legg, Merle, 55 Leroy, George Vy, 62, 66 Lewis, Frederic T,, 36, 37 Liebow, Averill, 62, 63, 65, 68 Lisco, Herman, 60 Little, Clarence Co, 104 Locke, Edward A,, 43 Loeb , Jacque , 9 Lovelace , W. Randolph , 93 LUnd, Charles C,, 36 Lund, Paul, 19 MacArthur, Douglas , General, 62 , 71 McGrath, George Burges , 103 McIntyre, Ross, 60, 61, 62

Page  110MacLeod, Ralph, 48 Mallory, Frank Bo, 30-33, 40, 41, 52, 53, 79, 80 Mallory, Tracy, 61 Massachusetts General Hospital, 44 Masson, Pierre, 49, 50 Medical Effects of the Atomic Bomb in Japan, 65 Meissner , William A, , 59, 70 Minot, George Re, 31, 43 Morgan, Thomas H., 9 Mudd, Stuart, 44 National Academy of Sciences, 97, 98 National Cancer Act (1937), 104 National Committee on Radiation Protection, 75, 98 Neel, James Ve, 72 New England Deaconess Hospital, 53-56, 83 Nissen, He A,, 31 Operation Crossroads, 73 Opie, Eugene, 51 Oppenheimer, Robert, 62 Oughterson, Ashley We, 62, 64, 65 Pace, Ne110 (Lt, Comdr,), 64, 68 Page, Imine He, 3, 5, 26, 104, 107 Page, Lafayette, 3 Parker, George, 7, 9 Peabody, Francis W., 31, 43 Peter Bent Brigham Hospital, 43 Puck, Ted, 101 Puerto Rico Nuclear Center, 96 Quinby, William C,, 46 Ravdin, I, So, 60 Roosevelt , Theodore, 4 Rosenau, M, Jo, 48 Sacco-Vanzetti case, 103 Schull, William J. , 72 Sellards, Andrew W., 43 Shattuck, George, 43 Shields, George H,, 2 Shields, Sara, 2 Shortridge High School, Indianapolis, 5 Simmons, Channing, 36 Smith, George VOg 104 Smith, H, W,, Admiral, 63 Smith, Robert E, (Lieutenant) , 64, 68 South Dakota , University, 5 Spooner, Leslie, 29, 42 Stewart, Fred, 48

Page  111111 Stiles, Percy Go, 38 Strauss, Lewis, 74, 96 Strong, Richard Po, 43 Syrmners, Douglas, 33 Taylor, Lauriston, 75 Tsuzuki, Maseo, 64 Tullis , John , 59 Twain, Mark, 2 United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Radiation, 88, 89, 99 United States Air Force, Scientific Advisory Board, 93 Vail, Derrick, 38 von Braun, Werner, 92, 94 von Karmen, Theodore , 94 von Neumann, John, 94 Warren, John, 35 WARREN, Shields: genealogy, 1, 2; childhood at Hyannisport , 2 -5 ; early education, 5, 6; college, 7-9; summer at Woods Hole, 7, 9; service in artillery, 9-12; flu epidemic, 11, 12; "hobo years", 14-27; reporter for Boston Herald , 18, 28; Harvard Medical School, 27-31 , 35-47 ; pathology training , Boston City Hospital, 31-35, 47- 48; European travels, 48-50; New England Deaconess Hospital , 53-56 ; service with U, So Navy, 58-74; post-Hiroshima activities , 61-74; Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission, 63-72 ; Operation Crossroads, 73 ; Atomic Energy Commission, 73-78 , 95 ; thoughts on "integrated" medical curriculum, 79; American Board of Pathology, 80, 81; comments on higher education, 83- 87; specialty societies in path- ology, 90, 91; government- university cooperation in science , 94-102 Warren, Stafford, 59-61, 63, 64 Warren, William Fairfield, 1, 2, 4, 12, 34, 95 Warren, William Marshall, 2, 5, 8 White, James , 27 Wigner, Eugene, 75 Wilson, Caroll, 74-75 Wolbach, S, Burt, 29, 41, 50, 61 Wright, Arthur Wy, 47, 48 Wright , Homer, 54 Wright, James He, 40 Yasuyuma, Kodo, Admiral, 64

Page  112Reel 1 1 2 2 3 3 Y Appendix Side I I1 1 11 I I1 Tc Pages 1-17 17-35 35-53 53-67 67-81