Lister Hill : an oral history [sound recording]
Page  i
Interview with Senator Lister Hill

SENATOR LlSTER HILL National Library of Medicins Bethesa, Maryland 1967

Page  11 Senate Office Buildins, Thursday, Januarv 26, 1967. We talked brieflv in terms of the interests I have todav before we turned the machine on, and one of them is to fence in the sort of thins you fall heir to in terms of the humans that make up this Hill Fami1.v. and I don't mean to be discourteous to the ladies because they are a sub.ject b.v them- selves.... I understand. But the menfolk in terms of how I've come to this are qiants. I wanted to sort of fence with your qrandfather--not because I had a chance to win a point, but because I'd walk away the better for havinq had the education. Sure. Now, you didn't see either one of them. No, I didn't know either one of them. They both died before my day. But families have a habit of creatinq a kind of feelinq about what the fam- ily is. I don't know whether this was true in your case, or not. What's the measure of these people? What brouqht them where thev were--vou know, what made them run and tick and act and think and function? That's hard, but I think it tells a lot ultimately about you because it is a point of departure for .you. b Well, I think they all had a spirit of dedication, didn't they? Deep.

Page  22 Deep dedication. I think they did have a deep dedication. Of course the man who influenced my life more than anybody else was my father, and he was a doctor and a surgeon. He used to talk about his grandfather, and he'd talk about his father. Then the example that he set for me--see, a man of real dedication! He not only went to his hospital every morning, again every afternoon, but he went to his hospital every night between ten or eleven o'clock just as regularly, by golly, as he went there in the morn- ing, or the afternoon. Like breathinq. Yes--just like breathing. Before he went to bed at night he went to that hospital. him on the telephone and tell him how this patient was, or that patient was. He went out there to see for himself. He went every night just as regular- ly as he went every morning and every afternoon to check those patients. Then every morning at seven otclock the telephone would ring. head nurse of the hospital, again reporting on those patients--you see? He didntt rely on somebody else to check his patients, call That was the There is a phrase that comes to me--llrelentless insistence." That's a good phrase--a good phrase. I quess it is from a sermon of Vour qrandfather. That's a good phrase--well, my Dad lived to that. It's hard to escape. He lived to that.

Page  33 But schoolinq--I'm a Twentieth Century kid. Throuqh your Dad... . Talking about schooling, you may be interested to know about this. My Dad went to New York and graduated from New York University Medical School. It was a good school even then. Valentine Mott--men like that were there. Then my father went back to Alabama and got his license to practice, but he'd heard of a man named Sanuel D. Gross who was Head of the Department, or Professor of Surgery there at Jefferson. My father decided that he wanted to attend Gross's lectures, so he went to Jefferson, and al- though he was already admitted to practice, already had his M.D. degree from New York University, he graduated again from Jefferson. In the meantime, Dr. John Allan Wyeth--who, by the way, was an Alabamian--had founded the New York Polyclinic Hospital, the first postgraduate medical school in the country, so then my father went there and took a course under John Allan Wyeth at the New York Polyclinic. Then, of course, he knew about a man named Joseph Lister, so after he got through at the New York Polyclinic, he went on to London and took a couxse under Joseph Lister at the old Kingts College Hospital in London. Then he heard about a man named Jean Martin Charcot in Paris, France, so after he finished with Lister, he went down to Paris to attend some of Charcotts lectures. Of course, in that day and time you didn't have interns, all that busi- ness--residents like you do now. My father took those four courses, al- though at the end of the first one he'd gotten his degree and was licensed to practice medicine. He didn't have to take all those other courses. He subscribed to the British Medical Journal. He subscribed to the London - , publications like that, those British publications, and he read them as religiously as he did the publications here in the United States. For

Page  44 that matter, he used to get certain publications from Germany. He didn't read German, but there was a very fine lady who was the wife of a doctor-- by the way, her husband taught biology at the University of Alabama, Dr. John Y. Graham; he had been to school over in Germany, and his wife was a German--she could speak and read German well, so my father would turn these articles over to her, Mrs. Graham, and she'd translate them for my father. He was trying to keep up, trying to keep ahead of the game all the time-- see what I mean? Did he ever explain to you what it was that projected him into medicine? You know, action is a function of interest. How did it emerqe? His Dad had been.... His Dad had been a preacher and his granddad had been a preacher. Why he--frankly I've often thought about it. There are so many questions that I'd like to ask him today. Why he went into medicine--1 frankly don't know what it was that projected him, as you expressed it, into medicine. Did he ever mention a Professor Thomas? You mean Professor George W. Thomas who taught him--oh, yes. He had tremendous regard for Professor Thomas. Thomas had come down to Alabama from Massachusetts and operated this boys' school there in Montgomery. So many in that day and time--you know, so many boys went to these private schools. I spoke about Professor John Metcalfe Starke. He'd come down from Petersburg, Virginia. Some of the leading citizens of that time in Montgomery had gotten tagether to get Professor Starke to come down there and to start that school to educate their sons.

Page  55 My father had a tremendous regard for Professor Thomas who was his teacher there in what weld call today, I guess, high school, preparatory school. The biqqest education he had was with his own Dad. I'd say that the biggest education he had was with his Dad--yes. When medicine came alonq for whatever reason there was never any question that it should be pursued. I think that's true. Just what motivated him--1 don't know. You know, his Dad had two wives. He came home once and found his first wife and a couple of his children dead--1 think it was diphtheria that killed them. Fact of the business is my grandfather had about nineteen children-- two wives. That's what I said--he was a qiant. Yes, he was a giant, by golly--some man. You and I don't have nine- teen children, have we? Times have chanqed. Times have changed. There is some intimation that the familv were cotten qrowers. Well, they were cotton growers to a certain extent. Of course, my grandfather was busy with his ministry, but he lived four miles out of what was then the heart of Montgomery, lived on a plantation out there and raised

Page  6cotton out there--sure. This was Rosemary Hill. Exactly. That was still standinq after .you were born, althouqh there was a fire there.. . . The old house is down now, has been for many years. The old house has been down for many, many years. He has a great grandson who lives there where the old house was, built a new, modern house, lives there today, but his grandson doesn't plant and raise any cotton. He practices law. He raises some pecans. What effect in this backqround does the distaff side have--the women? Well, 1'11 say this. My mother was Lillie Lyons from Mobile, Alabama, and she was a wonderful person. She lived for one thing--that was for her husband and her children. She was a wonderful person--wonderful. All her thoughts, all her actions, all her life was the life of dedication to her husband and her children. That's the human qlue that sticks all the parts toqether. That's right. That's a beautiful way to express it. Keeps it alive. That's right. I don't know what we'd do without them.

Page  77 Well--off the record--everything is different now. They have these automobiles, and the ladies can bounce around. Whenever qlue obtains, it's 1arqel.v from the distaff side. That's right. I see it now with my daughter and my two grandboys. She lives for those two boys--absolutely. Ides there anv notion at all as to what it was that put these people out of Enqland to North Carolina? That's 1687, and there's no reason why you should know. Frankly I don't know. That was before I was born. I'm sorry I can't tell you about that because I really don't know. I'm sorry I didn't have more curiosity about these things and inquire about them. I don't know. That's all riqht. How long have your folks been in this country? Thev landed UP in Massachusetts Bav, but why .... Why did they come? You don't know any more than I know. I just thouqht that the family miqht have had some notions. I don't know what caused them to come over--to leave Wales and come over here, what motivated them--1 don't know. From--where was it?--Warrenton, North Carolina to Greensboro, Alabama-- 1829. -

Page  88 That's before you and I were born. Restlessness. Well, in that day and time a lot of people--that's the way our country was developed. If they hadn't moved south and moved west--we wouldn't have this nation today. Isn't that right? Sure. - We wouldn't have this nation today. Just a tuq on the ear and "let's qo!" I guess that's it, isn't it? By golly, I guess that's it. Then you know--you put down roots, and by the time you come on the scene, you've qot a qood quide--,your Dad. That's right. Of course, you've seen chanqes over the years in Alabama, but the roots are already deep, and Montqomery, Alabama, isn't .just a piece of real estate. No. travel around with your Dad a qood deal? I traveled some. I went to New York with him. I went out to the Mayo Clinic with him. The fact of the business is the first time I went to the Mayo Clinic with him, he took me out there to have Dr. Charles Mayo fix a

Page  99 a little hernia on the left side. I was just a kid then--oh, about nine or ten years old. I went out there with him, and then afterwards he'd go out there once in a while. He'd also stop in Chicago. There was a John B. Murphy--did you ever hear of him? He was a great surgeon there in Chicago, and my father would stop in Chicago; in fact, to go to Rochester, Minnesota, from Montgomery in that day and time by railroad, you'd have to change trains in Chicago. He'd go to Mayo to see what he could find out, pick up there, and then he'd come on down to Chicago and go to John E. Murphy's clinic, and then there were two doctors Ochsner. By the way their nephew is Alton Ochsner in New Orleans who did so much to develop Tulane Medical School and the Ochsner Clinic down there, and Ochsner was a protege, we'll say, of Dr. Rudolph Matas. He was a pioneer in vascular surgery and a very remarkable man. Also a leader at Tulane. Sure he was at Tulane--oh, yes, he was a great leader there. He was indeed; fact of the business is that I think our friend, Mike DeBakey, down in Houston, Texas, who certainly has the reputation of being one, if not the leading cardiovascular surgeon in the country, got a lot of his inspira- tion from Matas. Think of Edward the Duke of Windsor leaving London, Edin- burgh, Glasgow, Paris, Berlin, Vienna--all those great clinics where our doctors thought they had to go in the old days to round out their educa- tion--to go all the way to Houston, Texas, to have a vascular operation. It shows how times have changed. It's qood thouqh--refreshinq.

Page  1010 Do you know Mike DeBakey? No, I've never met him. He's quite a fellow. Incidentally, between you and me, he's Lebanese descent. You talk about Welsh. He's Lebanese, and if you look at his fin- gers--he has fingers at least a third longer than the average man's fingers, born to be a surgeon. As I say, he has eyes that feel and fingers that see--quite a fellow. That's qood. He's quite a ',2 low--I'll te tion of being one of the very top 1 you, and he certainly has the reputa- cardiovascular surgeons in the country. Did vour Dad have any special interests--he was a qeneral practitioner, wasn't he? I'd say this about it. In that day and time you didn't have much spe- cial interest. He was what I'd call a general surgeon. In that day and time you didn't have hospitals in your smaller towns and communities. in Alabama, they'd come from within a radius of a hundred and twenty-five miles. The local practitioner would bring his patient to Montgomery which was the capital city to be operated on--see, so my father did all kinds of There surgery. The operation that he did that brought him more acclaim than anything else was in September, 1902, when he did the first successful suture of the heart. Henry Mvrick.

Page  11Henry Myrick--that's right. My father sewed up that heart. Henry My- rick and some of his friends were walking across a bridge over a railroad track, and a boy named Johnny Connor and his sister were walking across too, and Johnny thought that Henry brushed up too close to his sister, so he pulled out one of these switch blade knives and right into the heart. The first doctor that saw Henry just put a little piece of healing tape over the hole. That didn't have any effect. Fortunately my father was called in very shortly and by the light of kerosene lamps in what was really a shack he did that operation, sewed that heart up. That's the marvelous thinq about that st0r.y--when you find somethinq that is unknown, never done before, you qo for broke really, and here the re- sults were marvelous. That's right. Well, he knew darn good and well that if he didn't do something, that patient would die, bleed to death. You can't stab the heart--the heart is a blood pump, isn't it? Soon you'd run out of blood, and that would be the end. That's riqht. You can't spend your time in conversation either. It re- quires action. It requires action and right now--sure. That takes couraqe. He didn't rush him off to try to find him a hospital. He operated on him right there on the kitchen table, so to speak, by the light of those kerosene lamps.

Page  1212 Unbelievable. Unbelievable. They didn't have all these electric lights like we do now, you know. When did he set up the local hospital in Montqomer.y? You know, that's a funny thing, doggone it. The lady who was his head nurse for a good many years is living here in Washington, and I talked to her the other night--1 guess it was Sunday night; yes, it was Sunday night, as I recall, to ask her that very question, and she couldn't answer it, and I don't know myself. As a boy, I remember his having the hospital there, but just what date they set up that hospital, I don't know. Funny I didn't ask all these questions. Well, it went throuqh successive development and enlarqement. Oh, yes--sure it did that. It grew. Of course it did. I guess it was full from the start. But just what I don't know. I'm as a boy. date he opened the first doors, I can't tell you because sorry to say that, but I don't know. I just remember it How was he as a fr end? He was a wonderful friend. I think those who knew him would tell you that he was an awful good friend. He certainly was a good friend to me. He sure was my good friend.

Page  1313 Were there books in the house? Oh, I'm sure for that day and time he had the best private library in Alabama; in fact, when he died he left lis library to the University of Alabama Medical Center. His books are all there at the University of Ala- bama now, at the medical center. They'd be out of date today. The three books that he counted on most were Osier's Practice of Medicine. That was about fourteen volumes, twelve or fourteen volumes, Sir William Osler, and then John Chalmers De Costa and W. W. Keen. They were right in the book case where he could turn and get them almost without getting out of his chair. Then he had--I'm sure he had the best private medical library in Ala- bama. You see, what he'd do--he not only would buy a lot of books, but at the end of the year he'd have his journals bound. Yes, he'd have them bound, by golly--sure. That's qood. He'd have those journals bound. My mother used to talk all the time about the number of books he had. Yes, he'd have those volumes bound so he'd have them. He had a journal there from the American Medical Associa- tion, the Annals of Surqer.y--things like that. He didn't throw them away. He kept them, and then at the end of the year he'd take them down to the Paragon Press where they were bound so he8d have them. A man after my own heart. Well, he was a student. He'd try to keep up. He tried to get the

Page  1414 latest in every way. Did he have much time for play? No, he didn't have much time for play. He must have been somewhat remote then in the early da.ys. He didn't have much time for play--he did not. They had a society at that time--I've forgotten what they called the darn thing, but they'd meet once a month. The doctors would meet at different ones' homes, and they'd have this dinner and they'd socialize, that sort of thing, but he didn't have much time for play. He didn't go to baseball games, or football games. He didnnt play golf or tennis, or anything like that. He worked. He worked. did every other day. He went to that hospital three times a day on Sunday just as he No difference. No difference--well, that patient out there was sick, and it didn't make any difference whether it was Sunday, or Monday, or Tuesday, or Wed- nesday--that patient was sick out there, and he wanted to check that pa- tient. That patient needed his attention--see what I mean. I tell you that was a day of dedication on the part of doctors. town fellows who would bring those patients up there to him, they had a sense of dedication--I'm talking to you--that I don't think we see quite as much of today as they did in that day and time. You take those small

Page  1515 I had a friend down in a little town, Greenville, Alabama, the county seat of Butler, about fifty miles south of Montgomery--Dr. John Kendrick. I used to say it didn't make any difference what time of day or night I got there, Dr. John was either going out on a call, or coming back from a call-- you see, and remember in that day and time all your babies were delivered in the home. When that call came, that that wife was in labor and ready to produce, why they had to be there--don't you see, and they were there, by golly--they were there. 1111 tell you this about it. When I went to the House of Representa- tives--1 went there before I came over here--I was the baby member of the House, and it was these small town doctors who elected me. They were my father's friends, and in that day and time your doctor had more influence than anybody--why? They answered the call. ey to pay them or not. Because when you were in trouble, they were there. It didn't make any difference whether you had mon- Thev were the credit cushion too. Absolutely--they were indeed. They certainly were, and when that call came, 1'11 tell you they went no matter how hot the weather was, or how cold the weather was, or how muddy and tough the roads were. Remember in that day and time we didn't have all these paved highways, but those doctors were there. In those early days after we finally got the car-- the model T Ford probably got stuck in the mud, as you and I well know-- I've been stuck in the mud myself. That's part of ever.vonets experience.

Page  1616 Yes. I remember once a fellow got shot down at Fort Deposit, Ala- bama--that's thirty-five, or forty miles from Montgomery, and my father was called down there. We went down there one night. Coming back we got stuck in the mud, and we got two mules to pull us out. The darn mules couldn't pull us out. pulled us out, in pulling they broke the little spigot off of the radiator, and all the water drained out--see, so the driver of the car had to go off in the woods right near by and make him a little wooden plug to plug up that hole so water would stay in that radiator so that car wouldn't get too hot, and we could come on back to town. People who live in this day and age don't realize what they went through in that day and time. We had to go and get some oxen to pull us out. When they They haven't qot the vaquest idea. No, they don't have the vaguest idea. Well, my Dad, I may say, was always there. He set me that example. He was there. When .you finally went to school--1 mean in the early times in Montqomery itself, did he have time to have interest in what vou were doinq? Oh yes, he'd ask me questions about how I was getting along, what I was doing--at night time when he'd come in after what we then called--what you call dinner now; it was supper then. You ate your dinner in the mid- dle of the day. He'd take a little time at times to ask me how I ting along, that sort of thing--sure. He'd seek to encourage me. In his own case--1 quess his own father spent not a little time w children. was get- th his

Page  1717 I'm sure he did. My father would seek to encourage me--"How are you getting along? What are you doing? What are you studying now?"--all that business. Mental arithmetic--did you ever study mental arithmetic? Oh ves. Did you study mental arithmetic? Yes--I had a father who was a Latin teacher. By golly--you know what it's all about then. Where were you raised? In Mt. Vernon, New York. Mt. Vernon, New York--that isn't too far from New York City. Where did you get your degree? Amherst Colleqe and then Columbia University. P & S? No, I'm not a medical man. You're not a medical man--you're a Ph. D. Well, hell--don't you know in this day and generation the Ph. D. in biology and that sort of thing is just as important as an M. D. You got your Ph. D. from Columbia? Yes. - Well, I got a law degree from Columbia. I know.

Page  1818 What year did you get your degree? 1954? You waited a long time to get it, didn't you? Well, I spent a little t me in the infantry. Oh, you were in the infantry--1 see. I should have come to attention when you came in here. Part of the qreat outdoors. Part of the great outdoors, but you went to Amherst. Calvin Coolidge went to Amherst. Dwight Morrow went to Amherst. There's a third one there--they all went together--Harlan Stone. Law School when I went to law school there at Columbia. Stone, Morrow, and Calvin Coolidge were all there at Amherst together, and I understood the He was Dean of the Columbia question was when the students voted which one was going to be voted the most outstanding student. I don't know. I wasn't there. But you see, when Cal got to be President, he made Dwight Morrow Ambassador to Mexico, and when they kicked old Harry Daugherty out for all that corruption, he brought Harlan F. Stone down here to be Attorney General, and then after he made him a Justice of the Supreme Court. After that, Stone became Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. He was quite a man, 1'11 tell you, that Har- lan Stone. I had quite a little incident with him. 1'11 not take your time to tell it, but he was awful good to me. I got my A.B. degree and my L.L.B. degree both from the University of Alabama in four years time. At that

Page  1919 time, the law school at the University of Alabama was a two year school, so I jammed it all in and got both degrees in four years time, so when I first wrote to Harlan Stone about coming to Columbia and went up there, he told me that I would have to stay the full three years. Columbia was a three year school. Well, I'd go in and have a conversation with him every once in a while. He was a wonderful fellow. Finally, when I came to the end of the year, I told him, "Dean, I can't come back here for two years. I just can't come back." He finally said, "Well, we're going to have a six weeks session this summer. If you come back for that six weeks, 1'11 give you your degree." I went back for the six weeks, and before I left to come back to Ala- bama, I went in and thanked him for his many kindnesses to me, and I told him that I'd love to have an autographed photograph of him, and he said, "Well, I don't have any now, but I'm going to have some made, and when I do, I'll send you one." In 1924, when he came down here to be the Attorney General, take Daugherty's place, I went down to see him, just a social call, and just as I got ready to go, he said, I'By the way, did you ever get that picture?" Fortunately--well, I said, "No, I didn't." That afternoon, by golly, a messenger came up from the Department of Justice and brought his autographed photograph. He was a grand fellow. He was a reasonable man to allow the six weeks course. Sure he was. He not only did that, but I'll tell you what he did for me. Not only did he do that, but to show you how reasonable he was--the year I left the University of Alabama, I had this awful good friend, J.

Page  2020 Lamar McCann, and the Black Warrior River comes right back of Tuscaloosa. Lamar McCann was out on that river with another boy and these two girls, and something happened--the boat turned over. winter time, and he saved the lives of those two girls. the Carnegie people, and they gave him the Carnegie Medal along with a nice check that he might continue his education. then President of the University of Alabama arranged for me to make the pre- sentation of this medal at commencement time of the University of Alabama. Well, it just happened that that commencement time came at the same time that commencement time at Columbia came--really while we were having exam- inations at Columbia; so I went in and told Dean Stone what the situation was, and he said, "Well, have you got a friend down there who is a lawyer? 1'11 send these examinations to him and you can take them right there in It was cold weather, in the I took it up with Dr. George H. Denny who was his off ice. tt You know, he let me stand several of my examinations right there in Tuscaloosa, Alabama! How is that for a wonderful man! You couldn't beat that. Not at all. That's an adjustable, reasonable fellow. Isn't that so? Sure is. You talk about a beautiful library--when he came here, he built a home not too far off of Connecticut Avenue, and he had the loveliest, private law library that I believe I ever saw--a beautiful room with all these beau- tiful law books in it, but he was quite a man, 1'11 tell you, that Harlan

Page  2121 F. Stone was. Those two stories .you've told me are precious ones. They show you what kind of a fellow Harlan F. Stone was. Your Dad was in medicine. Idhere did the seed for law come to .you? Idell, by golly, 1'11 tell you the honest truth. I donft know, except this about it. I went in and saw my Dad do two or three operations--one of them, by the way, this fellow had a great, big cancer of the nose, like a great, big red cauliflower. In that day and time your anesthesia was ether. You didn't have all this spinal like you do now, and I went in and saw my Dad do that operation. You talk about a ghastly sight! A man lay- ing up on the table, and my father taking his nose off with the idea, which he did, of coming down here and getting some skin and making him a new nose-- see, but you talk about a ghastly sight! You want to see a fellow laying on the table with his nose off! He had two hoses up there--see. Well, I didn*t vomit because since I was named Joseph Lister, I knew it would never do for me to get sick in that operating room, but I guess I got about as white as your shirt. Well, I left the operating room, and I haven't been o back since. I understand. You understand. I haven't been back since, by golly. By the way, that ether didn't help the situation any either. It never did.

Page  2222 No, it never did help the situation any. Well, boy, just think of what progress we've made! When I went out to the Mayo Clinic many years ago, and It11 tell you one reason I remember about it. It was while I was out there that a man named Harry K. Thorpe shot a man named Stanford White over Evelyn Nesbit. Did you ever hear of that case? - Yes. All right. Well, that's what they were all talking about out there, and I had to stay in bed three weeks. In that day and time if you had a hernia, you had to stay in bed three weeks. Now, I had a hernia fixed a year ago this fall, another one on the other side--there was nothing wron with the one that Dr. Charlie fixed. It just happened to be on the other side this time, and I didn't stay in bed four days. I didn't have to take that damn ether. They gave me a spinal. That just shows you what progress has been made. Instead of three weeks you get four days now. Instead of that horrible, damn ether which makes you vomit and everything else, they give you a spinal, and that's your progress. I understand whv medicine wasn't attractive to you--surqerv, but how did the law come in? Were there lawyers in the family? Oh yes, there were lawyers in the family. I had two uncles who were lawyers, although It11 have to say this, that the doctors were heavy in pr ponderance. Both my sisters--they hadn't at the time I made my decision, but one of them married a doctor. He was what we call today an otolaryn- gologist. Then you called them ear, nose and throat specialist. They are in Birmingham, Alabama. My other sister--by the way, my twin--she also

Page  23married a doctor. At least one year the statistics there in the Department of Health showed that he delivered more babies than any other doctor in Ala- bama. Then I had an uncle in Montgomery who was a doctor and who practiced there with my father, and incidentally, I had five first cousins who were doctors, so that the doctors were pretty heavily engrained in my family. But I had some lawyers. One of my mother's brothers in Mobile was a lawyer too. I tell you in that day and time a young fellow thought in terms of being in a profession. He didn't think about going into business--that is, if he had a Dad like my father. If the opportunity was there, it was a profession. Yes, and then I think this--in that day and time perhaps a man in a profession had a standing in the community which perhaps a man in business didn't quite have. One was to serve. The other was to make money--see what I mean? Just talking to you. They're not mutual1.y exclusive. No, they're not mutually exclusive at all--not at all. What year did you graduate from Amherst? 1942. - 1942--Lord Almighty knows-1942. You can see why it was interrupted. I understand--the war came on. I was in the Army in the First World War. That was the "war to end all wars"--"to make the world safe for

Page  2424 Democracy." I'm afraid that we're not quite safe yet. You may have to go back and fight some more. It's open ended. I'd .just as soon, if we have to. Open ended--it sure is, and doggone it, we live in a world today that is entirely different. It sure is. I'm taking your time, but I have a story I sometimes tell. You've heard of General Billy Mitchell. He was the great advocate of the devel- opment of American Air Power. If we hadn't had those airplanes to bomb Hitler and his gang, we'd have had a whole lot more trouble licking them in World War I1 Well, I was the ranking Democrat on the old House Committee on Mili- tary Affairs. the Air Force, and you had the Navy with the Navy and the Marine Corps. You had the Military Committee for the War Department of the Army and that business and the Naval Committee for the Navy and the Marines. Well, I was the ranking Democrat on the old House Committee on Military Affairs, and I knew Billy pretty well. He was out of the service by then, but he came up and filled me with the arguments for the development of American Air Power. He took me down to the White House and put me out there at the main gate. I went on in to see President Roosevelt and, sad to say, within forty-eight hours Billy had that heart attack and died. I never got to re- port to him on my mission. living then down in Virginia, near Winchester, down in there. I never got At that time you had the War Department with the Army and I never got to see him again because he was

Page  2525 to see him. He had that heart attack, but anyway, he had loaded my gun so well with the arguments and I was throwing them in on Franklin Roosevelt so fast that he finally reached over and caught me by the arm and said, ',My boy, you forget one thing." I said, "What is that, Mr. President7lt He said, "You forget the fact that we have the two best friends in the world--the Atlantic Ocean on one side and the Pacific Ocean on the other side. Well, in 1935, and up to that time, those two oceans were mighty bar- riers for our defense. The truth is that when James Monroe in 1823, pro- claimed the Monroe Doctrine, he did it at the suggestion of Mr. George Canning who was then Prime Minister of Great Britain. The effect of that doctrine really was to marry the British and American navies. Well, hell, with those two navies back in those days, were we worried about a damn Russian, or a Chinaman? We had it made! We had it made! Do you think they could have come over here with those navies on those high seas?! We didn't have anything to worry about, but now if you talk to any military man, he'll tell you about the most dan- gerous weapon there is--this damn polaris submarine. So instead of those oceans being barriers for our protection, they might be highways for our destruction. Riqht. And you've got these missiles, and you've got these jet airplanes and

Page  2626 all that stuff never dreamed of in that day and time. Roosevelt was a man of great vision, but he couldn't foresee this nuclear bomb. around the corner, but it was under his administration that that bomb was developed, as you and I know, and if we hadn't had that bomb to drop on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we might have had a hard time taking those Japs, but we got rid of them in short order. That's looking Turned out the liqhts. Turned out the lights--sure did. That's right. Yes, sir--turned out the lights. Well, Senator, can I come down and see you tomorrow? I think we've qone about as far as we ouqht to qo today.

Page  2727 Senate Office Buildinq, Fridav, Januarv 27, 1967. As I indicated before I turned this machine on, I want to qo back to Mont- q0rner.v which is source, beqinninq. A fellow comes to know, in the way fel- lows know somehow, even without words, the nature of home, the corner, the people, the places, ever,ythinq you take for qranted, and .vet somehow it qets into whatever it is vou are, and you tend to reflect it. Now, Mont- qomerv--I was down there this past summer for a week, ,just sort of wander- ins around, nosinq around. It wasn't warm down there. It was a little bit warm, but walkinq is qood, and there is a character to the town. Don't you think so? Yes, but vou saw it turn of the century about. Not quite that early, but pretty soon thereafter--don't make me too old now. When eves beqin to feast, voulve qot food to feed on. I wondered about whether you were free to roam Montqomery? What is the atmosphere of the place for a ,younq fellow? I was free to roam. I was born on South Montgomery Street--you see, we named quite a few of our streets for our naval heroes--McDonough Street, Lawrence Street, Perry Street, Hull Street, Decatur Street--all named for our naval heroes, don't you see?

Page  2828 We moved from Perry Street to McDonough Street when I was a boy of about ten years old, and I then entered Starke's University School which was up on Dexter Avenue. Did you happen to see the State Highway Building? The Public Service Commission. Yes--right down from the capitol. Right there--well, I used to walk from up on the four hundred block of South Perry right down to Dexter Ave- nue which is the main street of the town right on up to school every day. In fact, I made that walk four times a day because in that day and time you walked there in the morning. in that day and time dinner. walked back after dinner and then after school was out that afternoon at four-thirty, I walked back home again--right down those main streets, by golly--sure did. Then you had an hour for what we called I walked back home to eat my dinner. Then I Did your mother manaqe the household? Oh yes--she managed the household. I'll have to say this: frankly, in that day and time we had plenty of good servants, but she absolutely managed the household. Let me tell you how things have changed. Every morning the man from the grocery store would come by in the wagon to take your order, what she needed--meat, eggs, flour, sugar, or whatever it was, coffee, and then he'd bring it back that afternoon. Then every day some fellow would come by selling vegetables--see, fresh vegetables. In fact, he'd ring this bell and cry out, "Fresh vegetables!" Then every morning the ice man would come by, and he'd want to know whether you needed ten pounds, twenty-five pounds, or thirty-five pounds

Page  2929 of ice. If you said thirty pounds, he'd go back to his wagon which was right out front, and he'd chip off thirty pounds, weigh it right there. He had a little scale right there on the wagon, and he'd bring in that thirty pounds and put it in your refrigerator for you at the back door, the back entrance. See what I mean? That was right in that day and time, and very often--my father being a doctor--he had a lot of friends in the country, people he'd been a doctor for and some of them he'd operated on, and they'd send him turkeys, chickens, squirrels. They even sent him pos- sums. Did you ever eat a possum? With sweet potatoes. Well, that was considered quite a feast--a pos- sum with sweet potatoes. That was the life in the old days. Of course it was, and we kids used to play all the time up on the corner from us, friends of ours, and he--by the way, his father, Mr. Cody, was President of the Bank there. He had a big back yard there, and we'd go up there and play baseball right after we got out of school--play baseball. My mother ran the household. She ran a trim ship. Oh yes, she ran the household, and she did a wonderful job too. You don't get food like you do now. I remember going down to Alabama here some years ago, and I told about what a wonderful thing we'd done, how we were feeding these chickens antibiotics and what it had done to help us produce them, give them more weight, all that business. Instead of selling them-- pay so much for a chicken, you pay by the weight of the chicken now, but it

Page  3030 doesn't taste like the fresh chicken did in those days. See what I mean? I know. It doesn't taste like chicken. You can't get a chicken today that tastes like a chicken did in the old days. In the old days we had a chick- en coop in the back yard and the fellow would come in from the country and want to know how many ch ckens you wanted. Well, you'd buy the chickens and put them in the coop and if you wanted chicken that day for dinner, or that night for supper, the cook would go out and pick out this chicken, may- be two or three chickens, whatever you needed, ring their heads off and douse them in this hot water, pick the feathers off. Do you remember those old days? I was a very poor chicken plucker. Maybe you performed the operation of taking the intestines and the in- ternal organs out of the chicken. But you're riqht--they do taste different. They don't taste the same at all now that they did in the old days. Then of course another thing--1 suppose most of these chickens you get to- day have been in the refrigerator and cold storage. In that day and time, as I say, by golly, if you were going to have chicken tonight for supper, that day the cook went out there to the chicken coop and got the chicken, or chickens and rung their heads off and then doused them in that hot water and picked them, cleaned their insides out. You had fresh chicken, but you don't get that today--you sure don't, by jingles.

Page  3131 The Starke Universitv School which had been established in 1887 by .... That's right. A qroup of citizens, as .you pointed out ,y esterda.y .... A group of citizens had gotten together to start a school down there for their sons, and it was a school of discipline, a school where you had to do your job. So much of what an institution is takes its color from the man who heads it up. Old man Starke--I never got thrashed. Do you know why I never got a thrashing? I said that if I got a thrashing at school, I'd get another one when I got home. these mulberry switches down under his desk--see. a boy, he'd reach down and grab those mulberry switches, tell that boy to '!Stand up and hold out your hand!" Professor Starke didn't hesitate to thrash a boy. He kept If he wanted to thrash Then he'd say, ((1 whipped you to loosen up your hide so you'll grow." He was pretty strict. Was he? Yes he was strict, and we had real discipline in that school. We had real discipline. You had to know your lessons too. You had to study and

Page  3232 work and get your lessons. The fact of the business is, you see--here's what happened. If you missed any questions in any of your classes, you had to stay in that afternoon. You tried to get your lesson off. If you didn't get it off by Saturday, you came back to Saturday school, and if you didn't get it in by a certain time on Saturday, before he'd let you go home, he'd give you a good thrashing. How's that! I think it's qreat. Well, 1'11 tell you--it was great, and I'll say this too, my friend, that we need a little more of that discipline today. I think one of our biggest problems here is lack of discipline, don't you agree? That's why I said it was qreat. It was great! We have a lack of discipline. As I recall the last figures I saw, some fifty percent or more of all the crimes committed in this country today are committed by juveniles nineteen years of age, or younger. There's no discipline--see. Did he have humor? Oh yes--yes, he had humor. He was a great friend, a great individual. As I told you yesterday, he came down from Petersburg, Virginia--a graduate of Mr. Jefferson's school down at Charlottesville, Virginia. A lovely place. Oh yes, a lovely place. Well, he came from there, and he opened school every morning by reading from the Book, the Bible. That was the first thing

Page  3333 every morning and after he read from the Bible, we went on with our classes. Were you a qood student? I made good marks all right. I graduated all right. I made good marks. I won several medals up there--the medal for the oratorical contest, and I won the medal in the writing contest. He closed the school that way. He'd give you a subject and then you'd write. The student who wrote the best piece on the subject he gave you, got this medal. I came out pretty well. That's a very interesting debate .you had. It was on women's suffraqe. Do you remember it? I do indeed. I think you had the affirmative We have woman suffrage today. Yes. I wondered how .your mother was on this sub.iect. To be frank with you, I don't recall her having too much to say about the matter one way or the other. In that day and time most women back when I was a small boy didn't have too much to say about those things. They were taking care of their homes, taking care of their children, raising that boy right, inculcating him with the right ideals and ideas-see. That's what my mother did. I owe her a lot. Yes, I know. She held aloft the right image.

Page  3434 Was she insistent too--qentle? She was a very gentle lady, but she sought to have me do the right thing and live the right ideals--sure, the right ideals. She was gentle, but she sought to have me live to the right ideals. She sure did. Professor Starke was sort of a sky-scalinq fellow--he opened up the world to you in man,y ways, pro.iected you into it. He did--he and my Dad together. As I told you yesterday, my Dad was quite a student. I used to love to sit there at his feet, so to speak, and hear him talk about these different things, talk about a fellow like Sir William Osler, Joseph Lister, Pasteur, Vesalius, and a few others, even about Michelangelo, and my mother read a lot too. She could tell you a lot about these things--both of them did. It was in the air. It was in the air, t..e atmosphere, he c imate. It was in the cli- mate--you see, my mother and father both created this climate for us. That's so important. Of course it is. You never know when you :e qoinq to ca 1 on it, but it's there--a cons-ant. Yes, by golly, it's there. There never was a sweeter mother in the world, or one more dedicated to her children and her husband than my mother. That's what she lived for--you see.

Page  3535 Her universe. You didn't have all this whirl you have today. We sort of let it qet away from us, didn't we? We sure did, and it's one reason we have some I think, that we do today. You didn't have it. f the internal problems, There was a settled kind of quality about those times. You're right. There was a settled kind of quality. You're right about that. There was indeed a settled kind of quality. People tended to reflect it. That's right, they did. They couldn't escape it. They couldn't escape it. You're absolutely right. You said yesterday that when the time came to think beyond Montqomery and the Starke University School, the nature of a profession was important. Was there any discussion as to where to qo? Well, I wanted to go to my state university, the University of Ala- bama. A marvelous place. At Tuscaloosa, Alabama, named for an Indian Chieftain--Tuscaloosa.

Page  3636 He was a Choctaw. That's exactly right, and by the way, before I was ever elected to Congress I was President of the Montgomery Board of Education. Leslie's Maqazine--I don't know whether you ever saw a copy; it went out of business a good many years ago, but it was a magazine very much like Look today, had a lot of pictures. It carried my picture as the youngest School Board Pres- ident in the United States of America. Then, of course, after I came back from the war, I took quite an in- terest in the American Legion. I was the Post Commander of our Montgomery Post of the American Legion, and in 1921, I took this trip to France. The French Government through our government sent an invitation to the American Legion stating that during the war they were so busy, the French people, the French Government were so busy trying to win that war, trying to lick those Germans, that they didn't have time to show their appreciation of American soldiers, so through our government they invited us to send a delegation over. I went along with two others, we three representing the State of Ala- bama on that delegation, and we had a wonderful trip from the time we landed at Cherbourg. We went all over France, visited all the battle fields and all that business, and then we went on up into Belgium. We visited practi- cally all the battle fields of World War I and had a wonderful trip. I remember going over to Montfuqon for the dedication of a monument there. In the dining room that day I sat by a man named Petain. Did you ever hear of Petain? He couldn't speak English, and I couldn't speak French, but I could write French, so we took the menu. He'd write on that menu, and I'd write on that menu, and by the way, when we got to Verdun, which was perhaps the greatest battle field so far as the French are con-

Page  3737 cerned in that war, Marshal Foch was there to greet us and to explain the details of that battle. That was some trip, and the proposition was that each town and city that we visited, each place, tried to outdo the other one in the warmth of their reception. They watered us on champagne, and I thought, ItMy goodness, if I can get back home and get me a glass of water! 'I They had no water. They just champagned us. That's their way. That was their way. They gave us the royal treatment. We came over there representing the American doughboy who had saved the day for them. I tell you, if we hadn't gotten there when we did, the American doughboy hadn't gotten there, the Kaiser might have won that war. The French were qettinq worn out. They were getting worn out, and those Germans--you know, you can say all you want to about them, but they're pretty efficient, effective people. They showed that under this damn Adolph Hitler. Isn't that right? Yes, but they weren't as resourceful, or as imaqinative as we were. No, they weren't. I was over there in 1921 on that trip, and then I went back again in 1937, when the American Battle Monuments Commission of which General John J. Pershing--did you ever hear of that name?--he was the chairman of that commission. We went over there in 1937, and by then we had built our monuments commemorating the deeds of our soldiers on the dif-

Page  3838 ferent battle fields, and we had also built our chapels at the different cemeteries where our boys are buried over there. That was quite a trip too. He was quite a fellow. That fellow Pershing was quite a fellow. I saw quite a bit of him-- yes, sir. One incident that amused me about him--the last day I was in Paris just before I left to start back home. I came back by way of London, but anyway, I was getting ready to leave Paris. I went in to see him to tell him how much I had enjoyed being with him and having a personal conver- sation with him, and he was chewing tobacco which was all right, but he had this darn waste basket that you might expect the French to have, a lot of ribbons and all that darn fancy stuff on it, and he had to squirt that Amer- ican tobacco into that fancy waste basket. 1'11 tell you he was quite a man--that John J. Pershing was quite a man. He fit a qood mold. There's no doubt about that. He was a very great man, quite a fellow. Handsome man too. Yes, he was--big fellow, and he did a wonderful job for us over there. No doubt about that. You should have heard that TV telecast last night. This man Alistair Cooke, the Englishman, was interviewing Dwight Eisenhower. Of course he was talking about Winston Churchill--there's a tremendous fig- ure, a tremendous figure. You know, Churchill's courage, his daring, his vision, his leadership saved the British people. At one time along about L

Page  3939 1940, they were in desperate straits. That damn Hitler was bombing them-- you know, over there, and if they hadn't had that courage of Churchill! That was a clarion call, wasn't it? Oh my! A clarion call. You bet ?/our life--a unifyinq thinq. No doubt about that. You know, his mother was an American. She was Jenny Jerome from New York. I told you yesterday about when I was at the Mayo Clinic the first time, how Harry Thorpe shot--well, it was her brother who was then the prosecuting attorney. He prosecuted Harry Thorpe for shooting Stanford White in Madison Square Garden. Yes, in full view. Yes, in full view. In 1924, I was in the then Madison Square Garden. It is different now than it was then, as you know. In fact, they're build- ing a new one now over the old Pennsylvania Railroad. on--what is it? Up Eighth Avenue where it is now, but anyway, I was there at the Democratic National Convention in 1924. Our then Governor, William W. Brandon made Alabama famous for announcing--that was the first conven- tion ever over the radio: "Alabama casts twenty-four votes for Oscar W. Underwood .It They were then up I was one of those twenty-four votes. I had just been elected to Congress the year before. Well, we'll have to come back to that convention because that fiqures--one

Page  4040 fellow I met--John W. Davis. He was the nominee. A wonderful fellow. He was the nominee, and in order to try to pull all parts together, you may remember, after we nominated Davis for President, they made us nom- inate Charles Bryan, William Jennings Bryan's brother, for Vice President, but they ran against "Silent Cal", and Cal got elected. I went down one day to see President Coolidge, and I was reminded of the fact that someone had written a rather derogatory life of George Wash- ington. This friend of Coolidge had been in there telling him what a ter- rible thing it was, what an outrage it was for anybody to try to tear down the figure, the character, the image of George Washington, and when he got through with all this tirade, Calvin turned around and looked out that bay window and said, "Well, I see the monument is still there." The same thing happened to me. We had an old fort down in the south end of my district in Baldwin County. Baldwin County and Mobile County are the boundary lines of Mobile Bay. That's the southernmost point of Ala- bama, and we had an old fort, Fort Mims. The Indians went in there and slaughtered some five hundred and nineteen men, women, and children, I think. It happened. They had a heavy rain the night before, and they couldn't close the gates to the fort. You see, that mud had accumulated in such a way that you couldn't close the gates, and those Indians went in there and slaughtered every man, woman, and child in that fort. I say the figure is five hundred and nineteen, but that might not be it exactly, but

Page  41there were over five hundred, about that number. I had a friend down there in Baldwin County who went out on the scene there at Fort Mims, picked up these two old arrowheads, and he had one made into a watch fob--you know, how men in the old days wore these watch fobs, and the other he had made into what I guess you'd call today a lava- lier for Mrs. Coolidge to wear around her neck. He sent them up here for me to take them down to Calvin Coolidge to present them. Well, before I went down to the White House, I sent over to the Library of Congress and got all the information about Fort Mims, the massacre there, so I was tell- ing the President about where these arrowheads came from. I went in, and I made my little speech, telling him about Fort Mims and that massacre and all that business, the whole story, that when the massacre occurred down there old Andrew Jackson, who was in command of our troops in that area, said that that massacre had been inspired, brought about by two Englishmen, and that he was going to hang them to the first tree. After the massacre, Andrew Jackson went down there--and the Indians had left Alabama and had gone into Florida. Florida at that time was Spanish territory. You don't think he stopped about any Spanish territory--Andrew Jackson? He went on into Spanish territory and hung them to the first tree-- see, and I told Coolidge all that story and how at that time, the time of President Monroe, John C. Calhoun was Secretary of War, and when the ques- tion came up in the cabinet about General Jackson invading this foreign territory, it was said that Calhoun thought that Jackson ought to be cen- sured. Jackson, when he got to be President, found out about that, and

Page  4242 that was one reason for the split between Andrew Jackson and Calhoun. Well, I told all this story to Calvin Coolidge, and when I got through, he said, "Put 'em there!" Well, I put them on his desk, and then he said, "Thank you." That was all--then I scooted out. He had no comment about Jackson, those Englishmen, nor the Spanish territory, that horrible massacre at Fort Mims. He was a man of taciturnity. Indeed he was. He didn't enjoy talking like you and I do. Just think of what a pleasure he was denied. "Put 'em there!" !?Put 'em there!"--meaning on that desk. He didn't say, "Well, I know Mrs. Coolidge will greatly enjoy wearing that lavalier, and certainly 1'11 be delighted to wear this watch fob. You've also told me a most interest- ing story about old Andrew and all that business, about hanging those two Englishmen .It He didn't say they ought to have been hung, even though they did kill all those helpless men, women, and children. That was a qreat day. "Put 'em there!" You know, Jackson fought a battle not too far from Montgomery--the battle of Horseshoe Bend in which he licked those Creek Indians, and if he hadn't gone in there and licked them, we never could have gone forward and developed that south and southeast section. You couldn't go in there and

Page  4343 leave those Indians on your back. You wouldn't want to have an Indian with a bow and arrow on your back! No. No. You wouldn't want that, would you? We had to rudelv chanqe the stone aqe. Yes, we had to rudely change it--we sure did. The Seminole Indian War was the same. That's right. Couldn't have them behind us. They'd shoot you in the back. It was bad enouqh havinq them in front of you. You could have them in front of you, but you certainly couldn't have them on your back. and he licked them all right. Old Andrew had a way of winning. He had a way of winning. The Battle of Horseshoe Bend was a very historic battle, He hunq in there. He sure did. Do you remember Dean Charles H. Barnwell? Oh yes, he was the Dean of the college when I was there at the Uni-

Page  4444 versity of Alabama. He came from South Carolina. That's quite a family there in Charleston, South Carolina--the Barnwell Family, a very fine man. He taught English and was also the Dean. I remember Barnwell well--sure I do. You know, some people make a difference. You can meet a hundred thousand in the course of a life time, and some leave a little paint as you scrape b,y them. Dean Barnwell was a thorough Charleston gentleman, so to speak, a very good teacher and a very fine man. Barnwell was a fine man. He had a son-- Charles Barnwell Jr., who went beyond me, and I have often wondered what became of that boy. He married the daughter of Dr. John W. Abercrombie who was one time president of the University of Alabama--Claire Abercrombie, but what became of Charles Barnwell Jr., and Claire I just don't know. Others that I had known in school who went into the Army, different ways, I've had contact with them. I remember one fellow I had known pretty well. He came up for confirmation to be a general. He was a little bit disturbed. I was then on the Senate Committee on Military Affairs. I said, "You don't have to worry. I'm sitting there. 1'11 take care of you." He was a good man and was entitled to be confirmed--sure he was. Well, the nervousness was a natural thinq. Yes, you have a little nervousness about it. He and I played baseball together. Do you think he was not going to be confirmed? When he and I were boys, we played baseball together. You knew him like the back of your hand.

Page  4545 Yes, he was a good catcher, by the way. We played ball together. He had some qualms, but that's a natural thing. Was there any difference between Dean Barnwell and Dean Albert J. Farrah of the law school? Farrah was the Dean of the law school when I was there. He was a very fine man. They had different backgrounds. Farrah, as I recall, came from Michigan. He was a graduate of the University of Michigan, and Barnwell came from Charleston, South Carolina. I'd say that both of them were fine men. I don't know of anything that stood out as a difference between them. Both of them were fine men. You took Contracts with Farrah. Contracts--sure. That was one of the courses you had to get. You had to have contracts to get that law degree. How did you take to the study of law? I took it all right, By the way, I went out there to Michigan, Far- rah's old school. You see, as I told you, I got my A.B. and L.L.B. in four years time, so after I gat my A.B. degree, I went to Dean Farrah--I'd taken some law that last year with my A.B. work, and I told him that I wanted to graduate next year. He said, "Well, you go out to Ann Arbor. That's my old school. It's a good school. You take that course out there this sum- mer and come back next year, and I think you'll get your degree." That's what I did do, and I did get my degree. That's a good law school out there at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.

Page  4646 Was Cooley there then--1 don't think so? Let's see--wasn't the Dean at that time Bates? I think that Bates was Dean at that time. The qreat book that came out of there--a two volume work, Coole.yls "Con- stitutional Limitations." That s right. Which is a qood one to know. Sure. I wish you'd send a copy of it over to the Supreme Court. Quite a book--that Cooley on Constitutional Limitations. Do you remember a fellow, Edmund C. Dickinson at the University of Alabama Law School? I remember him--sure. He was a teacher there at the law school--a very good teacher. ber? Yes, he brought him down from Michigan, and he was a very good teacher Of course Farrah was the top man there being the Dean and everything. Didn't Farrah bring him down from Michigan, as I remem- But the stud.y of the law requires a rapier, fencinq. That's right. Nimbleness. That's right. This in some respects traces back to Starke who wanted you to prepare.

Page  4747 After you've prepared, you can improvise. Yes, and teach you to think--to analyze, to think. I told you yester- day about mental arithmetic. A book case costs thirty-five dollars, and three-fifths of the cost of the book case was four-fifths of the cost of a You had to say bureau, and that was so many fifths of something else. that--that made you think, analyze. Kicked open the windows. Kicked open the windows--that's exactly right. How about the boys up there who were in the law school You can sharpen whatever blade you have know, fellows who were in the class. We had some good boys over there. It's a wrestlinq match from the word qo. That's what it is--sure. We had some good boys. We d large school compared to what they are today. It was up in Morqan Hall. dn't have a Yes, it was up on the top floor of Morgan Hall. The auditorium was downstairs. There were only two stories, as I remember. Yes, there were only two stories in Morqan Hall. How did you get all this information? I'm a researcher.

Page  4848 You're an Encyclopedia Britannica Americana. No, I went down there to the University. I tried to look up old pictures of how thinqs looked when you were there, what it was like. It was a dif- ferent aqe. Oh, it was a different age--sure it was. That was a different age. It was a wav of pro.jectinq you into the world. That's right. Openinq a door and sivinq you a set of keys. Exactly--it sure was. That's to the qood. As a matter of fact, you did a lot of thinqs up there. I was the first President of the Student Government Association. I want to come to that. How did that orqanization qet started? How do these ideas emerqe even in a student community? We students decided that we ought to have a Student Government Asso- ciation, and I ran for the first presidency, and I got elected. I had two opponents, and I got more votes the first go around than the other two. I got more votes than the other two, but I had two good men running against me, by the way. They were good men. One boy was named Douglas,and the other boy was named Gibbons. Fact of the business is we called him "Cardi- nal" because Cardinal Gibbons at that time was very much in the news. He was no doubt the leading American Cardinal at that time. Well, we organized

Page  4949 that Student Government Association, and I was elected the first president. Your platform included an interestinq plank--equal riqhts for women. Certainly. The other two didn't do this. I got practically all the women votes too. Did you? Why shouldn't they have equal rights? You won't qet any quarrel out of me! My plank included that, and I got practically all the women votes, by golly, and I also believed that too. It carries on with the arqument in the debate on Woman Suffraqe back at Starke University School. Exactly--sure. This idea, treating woman as if she belonged to a sub- dued class wasn't right. No. Did you have a reqular campaiqn? Oh yes, we campaigned, shook hands, went around, sought votes--sure, we campaigned. Did this involve a faculty member adviser? Was this just somethinq that welled up from the students?

Page  5050 I'd say that it came up from the students--yes. Until it was an existinq thinq to deal with the school administration-- representation. Representation--sure. What did our fathers fight the Revolutionary War for? I'm for you. It stirred up the atmosphere. Exactly--sure. There's nothinq like excitement. There's nothing like excitement, by golly. Nothing like excitement. Riqht. You'd been producinq an annual calendar there which was a brand new idea--the "Aurora .It Yes--the Aurora. We started that too. How did you find out all these things? I looked at the first copy. How did you find out all these things? We did--we produced the Aurora. That was the first edition. We sure did. Then I was also the business manager of the Crimson White. That was the publication there. That's the one thinq I couldn't qain access to. The Crimson White? Yes. -

Page  5151 How come you couldn't get access to that? The copv the.v have is in bad condition. Is it? Yes. - I haven't looked at it in many a long day. I thouqht I'd qet some flavor of what went on week b,y week, but I do know that you were on that paper. Yes, I was on that paper. Well, it's like the other day--the busy man is the happy man. That's right. You keep busy. Idleness is the devil's workshop. You've got to keep busy, boy! So far as I am aware--well, I'm wronq about this-sittinq around list to your Dad is like publishinq a daily qazette, a feel of what's qoinq on. Yes, what's going on. Journalism would then make sense, but vou were the business manaqer. Which you'd call today the publisher, I guess. Free enterprise. Free enterprise--of course. Don't you believe in free enterprise? Of course you do.

Page  5252 You and vour buddies at that school must have had not a little fun floatinq an idea like the "Aurora". We did. It qave the facultv somethinq to deal with that thev hadn't had before. That's right--put them to work. Keep them on their toes. Keep them on their toes--exactly. Yes, sir. It's all to the qood. Whatever vou absorb from it adds dimension. That's right. Don't you think so? When you're young, you either Is that right? Riqht. You e build or you don't. ther bui d, or you don't. You stand under a tree and look at a qorqeous apple and wait for it to fall, or you shake the tree. Go and get it--shake it down. You sure do, by golly. You shake it down. You .just can't wait! Yes, you just can't wait. Tomorrow hasn't happened yet.

Page  5353 That's certainly true. I quess .YOU lived UP there at Tuscaloosa, didn't you? Oh yes, I lived up there. How was beinq awa.y from home? Well, I enjoyed being home, got better meals at home, enjoyed being with my mother and dad, but to go to the University you had to be away-- sure - There's a quick ad.justment to the need. That's right. You had to do that. Besides a number of boys up there had been toqether with you at the Starke University School. There wasn't that there was an absence.. . No, there wasn't an absence. There were some there. You mentioned athletics. Did you p1a.y at it? No, I was never much of an athlete. I used to play a little tennis, but outside of that I was not an athlete. Fact of the business is in that day and time--of course we had a football team and we had a baseball team, but they didn't have the place in the college life then that they have to- day. Didn't you .Find that true? Professor Starke had a sa.yinq--tlWork first. Athletics second.!' . That's right. That was it--"Work first. Athletics second."

Page  5454 He was a pretty brief one too, wasn't he? He sure was--he was quite a man. I wish you could have known that fellow. He was a great fellow--on the job all the time. You told me vesterdav about cominq up to Columbia and those marvelous sto- ries about Harlan F. Stone, but did vou think that when you qot throuqh at the law school, you were qoinq to put up your shinqle? Oh yes--1 was going to practice. I had to make a living. ias to make a living, doesn't he? Sure. A fellow low did you find the common law in Alabama--Professor Ward, Th mas B. Ward? Oh yes, Tom Ward. He was a practitioner in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. He practiced law right there in Tuscaloosa. All right. I had another practi- tioner who taught out there. He taught evidence. That was my friend, and he's still there now--Jim Morisette. Jimmy was up here for quite a while during World War 11, in the Judge Advocate General's Corps, during that period of war and stress. He was quite a fellow. As a student, one of the requirements accordinq to the cataloque was that you produce papers in pleadinqs in a case and actually went to trial. We did. Did you? Sure we did. This was Vour first case,

Page  5555 I did my best to try to win--sure. My old partner in that case, Jim- my Hicks, is today down in Enterprise, Alabama, and he has two sons that are otolaryngologists up in Birmingham--Jimmy Jr. and.Julius. They do well up there--very well, indeed. What kind of library faci1it.y did vou have? Did you have much of a lib at the school in those days? We had a pretty good library. The local practitioner must have been a savvy kind of fellow--vou know, the demands that are imposed as distinct from the idea. Sometimes the pa- per just qets thrown aside as not beinq on the point. That's true, but we had a pretty good library--textbooks. They were the main things, but we had a pretty good library. We did indeed. Old Dean Farrah used to say, "The law is a jealous mistress--live like a hermit and work like a horse. The law is a jealous mistress." It certainlv doesn't breed a nine to five approach to an,vthinq, does it? No, it does not. Problems don't beqin at nine. That's right--that's exactly right. Let's stop today. Can I come see you on Monday? I may have a committee meeting Monday. Let me ask you a question.

Page  56Senate Office Buildinq, TuesdaV, January 31, 1967. This is the pilinq on which everythinq else rests. I know--you don't want to go back to when Columbus landed wherever he landed, do you? Not exactl,p-unless it's relevant. I don't think it's quite relevant because--and I'm being frank with you now--1 wasn't born when Columbus got here. Neither was I. Letts qo back--there was one fellow on the facu1t.v. Who is that? Frederick D. Losey. Losey--yes. He was Professor of English. He taught Shakespeare, and he also had public speaking. He was quite a man, It11 tell you. He was quite a man. He came up here from New York. I think he'd been at the University of Syracuse before he came to Alabama. 1'11 tell you that when you associated with him, you got an inspiration. Did you? You sure did. Losey was quite a teacher--yes he was, he was quite a teacher. He handled public speaking and part of the English. We had other English teachers like Dr. Barnwell who was the Dean. He also taught Eng- lish, but Losey taught Shakespeare and other English courses, and particu- larly did he take the lead in public speaking, and he was quite a teacher.

Page  5757 In 1912, there developed on the campus what is called the Shackleford Lit- erary Club. Do ,you remember that? Yes, I remember that. It was kind of a week1.y meetinq affair for extra readinqs to keep abreast of current topics and to debate. That's right. As I remember it, I was in that club. Was I president of that club? Yes, I was president of that club. It wasn't as important as President of the United States, but I was president of the Shackleford Club. That's right. We organized that, as you suggest, and they made me the first president. This would indicate amonq younq people the need for opportunity. Yes, that's right, and that's what it was--opportunity, and we met that need to a certain extent by organizing that Shackleford Club--sure. We sure did. The in eresting thing is that that club was named for the president of what we then called the Troy Normal School. It afterwards be- came the Troy State eachers College. We had one or two members of that club who came from Troy, Alabama, and they wanted to honor Dr. Shackleford, and Shackleford was a very fine man. I knew him, and he was a fine man, so we named it the Shackleford Club. It has a marvelous rinq to it. Well, it had good stuff in it--I1ll tell you. I think we met there and had good meetings, discussed important things of that day and time. Of course, we didn't have communism such as we have now, but we had our

Page  5858 problems--we had our problems, by golly. That's open ended. That's open ended--that's right. You always have your problems. Riqht. The other da.y we mentioned the "Aurora", but there's a fellow named Bill Brunson, I think. Do you remember him? Bill came from down Elba, Coffee County, Alabama. I'm sorry to say that he's dead now, died with a cancer, died a good many years ago, but he has a son who is head of one of the banks down there, and his son is named Lister Brunson. Bill was one of my dearest and closest friends there--oh yes, one of my best friends was Bill Brunson. As I remember, he died in the winter--February, 1947, awful good man, and this boy of his, Lister Brunson, has carried on in a mighty fine way. He's one of the leading cit- izens down there today, a very fine boy. Bill was a very good man. Inci- dentally, he went down to the Ochsner Clinic, and they opened him up, and cancer had him. There was nothing they could do about it. Cancer had him--see, but he was an awful fine man. Well, the "Aurora" shows--,vou remember that little calendar you put out? They hadn't had one before. No, that was the beginning of them--ground breaking. 1912 was loaded. Well, hell, I was there, and Bill Brunson was there. We were there. Excitement.

Page  5959 Excitement, by golly. We had to have some excitement, didn't we? You even spent, I quess, a couple of seasons with the Black Friars. By the way, you know who was the key man so far as the faculty was concerned for the Black Friars--this same man, Losey. He did more than any- body else to inspire and provide the counsel for the Black Friars. They were your actors. .Then you didn't have quite so much football, basketball, and baseball. You had some, but not quite the place it occupies today. The Black Friars was quite an outfit. They traveled around and put on these theatrical productions. They put on plays by even a man named Wil- liam Shakespeare, and the inspiration, the faculty adviser on that who really did more than anybody else to perhaps promote it was this man you just mentioned--Dr. Frederick D. Losey. What is interestinq is the way in which a university can keep in touch with state affairs throuqh this Black Friars--they traveled the state. That's right. We went around to the different cities and towns and put on these plays. You didn't have television. You didn't have radio like you do now, and you didn't have really--well, what motion pictures you had in that day and time--well, there were not talking films in those days. You had to roll .your own. You rolled your own. That's what the Black Friars did--they rolled their own. I wanted to put those in because it qives a sense of some of the excitement

Page  6060 quite apart from course work. Yes. We mentioned yesterday--well, I quess the last time which was Friday, a number of professors at the law school .iust in passinq. Presentation in the law is a little bit different kind of qame than it is, let's sa.y, in Shakespeare. That's right. I wondered because law professors intrique the davliqhts out of me. What's the quality of these people, particularly Morisette and Farrah, Dean Farrah? I'd say that they were both mighty fine. Farrah was, as I told you the other day, a graduate of the University of Michigan Law School, who came down there to be the Dean. When I was there he was Dean of that law school. I told you before that his slogan was "to be a good lawyer, you have to live like a hermit and work like a horse." He was more active and took a greater part in our schooling than Jimmy Morisette. I had a great regard for Jimmy, still do--he's still living, by the way. Lost his wife a couple of months ago, an awfully fine fellow, but he was engaged in the private practice of the law as well as teaching--you see, many of the teachers there were in the private practice of the law. By the way, his firm was Clarkson and Morisette, and this has nothing to do with me, but did you ever hear of a man named Richmond Pierson Hobson? Yes. -

Page  6161 Well, Clarkson had at one time been secretary to Richmond Pierson Hobson when Hobson was up here in Congress. The reason I pose them is because one has more or less the academic tradi- tion, thouqh Farrah had been a .iudqe, hadn't he? Not to my knowledge. Hadn't he been down in Florida, taught there some? Yes. - He had taught in Florida. I don't know whether he'd been a Dean down there in Florida. Then he came to be Dean at the University of Alabama. I could be wrong, but so far as I recall, he had never been on the bench. He'd been teaching most of his life. He was a teacher--Albert J. Farrah. Was he a socratic fellow in class? Yes, he was. He'd ask you questions and expect you to answer them-- yes. How were you in readinq--case books? You had case books and you also had text books. You had them both. You read your cases and you got your law from your cases. You also got your law from the text books, from both of them--lived like a hermit and worked like a horse. That'ls true. "Live like a hermit and work like a horse"--that's what a good lawyer

Page  6262 does. He sure does. In order to complete vour law course in two vears, vou went for a while to Michiqan and then to Columbia. Here's what I did. I got my A.B. and L.L.B. degrees at the same time in four years time, and in order to get that L.L.B. degree--Bachelor of Law Degree at the end of my fourth year Farrah told me, "Well, you go out and take this summer course at Ann Arbor", so I went out to Ann Arbor which was his old Alma Mater, University of Michigan out there, and then the fol- lowing June he gave me my L.L.B. degree. I'd gotten my A.B. degree the year before, and from there I went on up to Columbia and got my L.L.B. from Columbia Law School. Then vou hunq out a shinqle. Yes, then I came back to Montgomery, Alabama, and hung out a shingle. What was the Montqomerv bar like? You know, these are the fascinating people of your town and mine. I'd say this about that bar. At that time there were mighty good lawyers there. They were men of ability, and they were, I'd say, good lawyers. They had some good lawyers who worked on their cases. You had a partnership, or worked with Lee Hollaway. Yes, but my first partnership for a short period before I went into the Army was with Bernard Gerson. Bernard and I had been in school to- gether at Starke, and he was at Columbia when I was at Columbia, and we

Page  6363 both graduated the same year at Columbia, so we came back to Montgomery, and we entered into this partnership--Hill and Gerson. We practiced to- gether--it was just a short period because I went on into the Army. It was just a few months time. Then after the war was over with and I came back home, I went in with Judge J. Lee Hollaway. He was not only a practicing attorney there, but he was also the first Judge of the Juvenile Court there in Montgomery, so he was both a judge and a lawyer. I had a short period there with Bernard Ger- son, just a few months after I finished there at Columbia and until I went into the Army. Then I went in the Army, came out when the war was over with on November 11, 1918. I was discharged in January, 1919, came back to Mont- gomery and formed this partnership with Judge J. Lee Hollaway who, as I say, was a Juvenile Court Judge as well as a practicing attorney there in Mont- gomery. The face of the map has been chanqed since those days in terms of interests in Montqomery itself. You've expanded opportunity in just the wildest kind of way, but what was the nature of Montqomery at the time vou went into practice--what interests were there there? It wasn't anything like the size city it is today. I guess we had a population of about sixty-five thousand, and the base, I guess as much as anything else, of the economy of Montgomery was agriculture in that day and time--cotton. You've been to Montgomery, and you've seen Court Square which is part of the town. Well, I've seen the time when that Court Square was pretty well filled up with cotton bales piled up there. We lived in a cot- ton economy. We didn't have much industry there, and when the war was over

Page  6464 with, Camp Sheridan which had been there was closed down. We still had Maxwell Field but it was not a very large air force in- stallation, commanded by a major. Certainly a military installation com- manded by a major is not too big. During the war, it had been an air depot more for the repair of airplanes and that sort of thing. In fact, when I got to Congress in 1923, it was on the list to be abandoned, and the War Department said, "We're going to abandon it." They wouldn't ask for any money, and I got an appropriation of two hundred thousand dollars for Maxwell Field. That doesn't sound like much today, but in that day and time two hundred thousand dollars was a whole lot of money. After I once got that two hu dred thousand dollars, they couldn't very well abandon it. They had to keep it then, by golly, so then it began to operate not so much as a depot, but as a regular Army Air Force field, Then we got the tactical School of the Air Force there, and that was followed by the Air University. I would say that with that Air Uni- versity, there's no Air Force installation in the country, or in the world, more important than Maxwell Field today. It's a great big place today--a huge place. The payrolls and the expenditures out there run into the mil- lions of dollars. It's a biq installation--thanks to the two hundred thousand dollars for permanent buildings. That's right--permanent buildings. That's exactly right. Well, air power in 1923, wasn't so hiqh and miqhty. Trubee Davison was interested.

Page  6565 That's right--Trubee Davison was the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Air. Did you ever know Trubee? Yes, a marvelous fellow. Let me ask you this--not to get off the subject, but have you seen him lately? No, I haven't. I haven't seen him in a long time. As I recall, his father set up a Trust Fund of which Trubee was to draw the proceeds as long as Trubee was in the public service, so he left as Assistant Secretary of the Army for Air, and as I recall it, he became the director, or whatever you call him, administrator, of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and he stayed there for some years. I understand that he retired here some years ago, and I have- n't seen him in some time, but Trubee was a lovely fellow. Oh, marvelous fellow. A marvelous fellow. You know, his father, Henry P. Davison, who was with the House of Morgan, as I remember--he was head of the American Red Cross during World War I. I told you the only time I heard Woodrow Wilson make a speech I was in the Army, stationed in New Jersey, and I wasn't very far from New York, so we could get to come over sometime. I came over and heard Woodrow Wilson make this speech in the Metropolitan Opera House that they're now tearing down, I'm sorry to say. So am I.

Page  6666 H. P. Davison, as I recall, was the President of the American Red Cross, and he presided over that meeting that night and introduced our speaker-- President Woodrow Wilson. When H. P. Davison died, he left this provision in his will that as long as Trubee was in the public service, he would receive so much money from this trust fund. When Trubee left down here as Assistant Secretary of War for Air, he went, as I recall, to the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I think it was the Museum of Natural Hist0r.y. Maybe it was--1 guess that was it, the Museum of Natural History. He sparked all kinds of new ideas as to how to present .... You're right. It was the Museum of Natural History. It's up on Cen- tral Park--up there about 83rd Street. That's about right. He took that position as head of the Museum of History there--what's the exact title? Museum of Natural Historv. Museum of Natural History. He became whatever his title was. He was the head man there for some years. He served there, I suppose, until he reached the retirement age. He was a fine man, and by the way, he had a very lovely wife too. Did you know him? Yes. - Where did you know him? I talked to him with a tape recorder.

Page  67How long ago? When he was director of the Museum of Natural Historv. Some years ago. Yes, it was. He was about to come down here, I think, i althouqh about that I'm not sure. th - 67 CIA - o -9 I don't think he came, did he? Well, the C.I.A. is a secret organi- zation, and he may have served here a short time. That was under General Eisenhower? I believe so. He may have served here a short time, but he didn't serve long, did he? I made one call to him on the phone, and when I saw him aqain, he said, IlPlease don't call me because as soon as the call was finished, I had a complete transcript of what I'd said on the phone in front of me." I didn't see him when he was down here with the C.I.A., but he wasn't here very long--just a short time. He was somethinq of a wild qame hunter. I think he was. He found that verv excitinq. He was a very fine, lovely man, and as I say, his wife was a very lovely lady. I knew him well in the old days when he was Assistant

Page  6868 Secretary of War for Air. See, I was on the old House Military Affairs Committee, so I used to see quite a bit of Trubee then. In 1923, he was manaqinq a pretty small store where the Air Force was con- cerned. Well, as I told you the other day--the Air Force had its beginning as part of the signal corps. as I recall, and then from the Air Service, I remember we passed the bill-- I made a little speech on the floor of the House--from the Air Service it became the Army Air Corps, and then after World War 11, we set up the sin- gle Department of National Defense and gave the Air Corps equal status with the Army and the Navy, and it has equal status. You have your Secretary of National Defense--McNamara, and then you have a Secretary for the Army, a Secretary for the Navy, and a Secretary for the Air Force. It now has equal status. Force which you might expect--Maxwell Field. Then it became the Air Service of the Army, It was a long hard fight on that, and I was for the Air In fact, we also had another field during the war. It had been built as an airport--that was Gunnar Field. It was named for the Mayor of Mont- gomery, Bill Gunnar--he was mayor at the time that field was established as a Municipal Airport. It's now a very important installation in the Air Force. You did any number of thinqs in those daw so far as publicizinq the exis- tence of the plane. For example, Frank James, I think, who was a marvelous fellow in his own riqht, landed at--was it Muscle Shoals in a plane? He and I landed in a damn field up there at Muscle Shoals. At that

Page  6969 time the Republicans were in control, and he was the chairman of the com- mittee and a good friend of mine. By the way, I had a letter from his daughter the other day, telling me how her mother died several years ago, and she told me about her brother. Frank and I were awful good friends. He was the chairman as the Republicans--see, after Wilson went out we had Harding, Coolidge, and Hoover Administrations, and all during that period of time the Republicans ran the show. It wasn't--well, we took the Con- gress in 1930, which meant we came into power when the new Congress met in 1931, and then in 1932, we elected a Democrat named Franklin Delano Roose- velt President of the United States, and then we had a long period there from 1932--well Eisenhower took over in 1953, but that long period was Democratic. Except for the 80th Congress, we controlled the two houses of Congress all during that period. They controlled it during the 80th Con- gress. That was two years--let's see, that was 1947 and 1948, wasn't it? Back in the old days they had control of the committees then in Con- gress, and Frank James was chairman of the committee for quite some time and a quite good friend of mine. He came down to Montgomery in this old plane, and he and I went in that plane from Montgomery to Muscle Shoals. Interestingly enough it rained like the devil when we got to Birmingham, so we had to stop there in Birmingham, and I almost wished the rain would- n't stop because I knew as long as the rain continued I'd have to stay on that ground. If I got back in that plane, I might get off the ground, but I might not get there the way I wanted to get there. Well, we went on up to Muscle Shoals, and we landed pretty much along the edge of the river in just an old field there. There wasn't any airport there in that day and time.

Page  7070 But it was a Step. It was a step forward. Sure--the press was there, the pilot was there. Yes, it was a step forward. How did you find out all these things? I've been going throuqh your papers. You must belong to the F.B.I. I'm doinq this to help you. I understand. You don't mind if I joke a bit, do you--have a little fun? Not at all. Well, Frank was chairman of our committee, and then you see what hap- pened--in 1931, we came in, and the Honorable Percy Quinn of Mississippi took over. sippi--have you ever been down in Natchez? He didn't live too long. He came from down in Natchez, Missis- Yes. - That's quite an old city down there. Well, when Percy died, my good friend from South Carolina was next in line--John Jackson McSwain. didn't live too long, and when he died, I was next in line, and I took over, but I wasn't chairman too long because there's another body called the Sen- ate, and I came to the Senate in a special election. John In fact, do you know

Page  7171 where I was when this vacancy occurred in the Senate? I was over in Europe. That's when I made that trip with General Pershing and the American Battle Monuments Commission, and I had to announce my candidacy from Europe--see, and I had to cut my trip a little short to come home and campaign. That was in the fall of 1937. I came on home and got elected in a special elec- tion held about the 8th of January--I've forgotten the exact date, but in January I was elected. That was to fill out the unexpired term of Justice Black who had gone to the Supreme Court. Then I ran again that year, but I had no opposition, and I was elected again for a full six year term. The years have gone by, boy. It's been fun. In that day and time you had hair on your head. Yes, I'm afraid I did, but I have forqotten what I looked like with hair. What year did you say that you graduated from school? 1942. - And you said you graduated at Amherst, didn't you? Itts a good school up there--Amherst, very fine--one of the famous schools. I told you I had a nephew that graduated just about that time. He came from Des Moines, Iowa. He may have been a little bit ahead of you because I know he was in the Army during World War 11, but he went there to Amherst, and then after the war was over with and he had finished his duty

Page  7272 as a soldier in the United States Army, he went to a little law school that you've heard of named Harvard. He graduated from there, and he's practicing law out in Des Moines, Iowa now. He qot a qood start, didn't he? He got a good start, and he's doing well out there. Well, I'm miqhty pleased to hear that. You see, his Dad, my brother, graduated at West Point and got sta- tioned out at old Fort Des Moines. That was a military installation es- tablished out there in the old days when we were fighting these Indians, don't you see? When he was stationed there in Fort Des Moines, he married a Des Moines girl, Miss Mary Hippy, and when he decided to leave the Army-- there was no war going on; it was peacetime then--why naturally, she wanted to go back home, back to Des Moines, so they went back to Des Moines and be- came associated with the Cowles interest. They run the Des Moines papers, the morning and afternoon papers. They went into the radio and television field, and he pretty well ran the show out there for this reason. There were two--old man Cowles, of course, died a good many years ago, and he left two sons. John Cowles, the older boy, instead of staying there and operating the Des Moines interests, decided that he would go to Minneapolis. He went there and put out the Minneapolis Tribune--1 think hers got most of the papers there in Minneapolis now. Mike Cowles decided that he would go to New York and start him a magazine, and he started Look Maqazine and so with the Cowles gone, my brother fell in line there, and he took over, so to speak. He is now more or less retired down in Naples, Florida. Have

Page  7373 you ever been in Naples? Well, it's a nice place to live. 1'11 tell you where it is. It is really right across--it's on the west side, the Gulf side from Miami which is on the Atlantic side, right there in southern Florida. He has a nice boat down there, goes fishing, goes bathing, has a good time. He's qot it made. He's got it made--sure, but he operated the Cowles interests there in Des Moines, and they were the original interests. Both Cowles boys moved out of Des Moines, but those interests got bigger. They got a radio sta- tion, and then they've got a television station there now, but other sta- tions even as far east as West Virginia and that kind of thing. They moved all around, and as I say, Mike wasn't content to stay in Des Moines. He had to go to New York and founded Look Maqazine, and John went up to Minneapolis to take over those papers there, so my brother operated the Iowa part of the empire as well as several radio and television stations that they own, and it's his son that graduated there at Amherst just about the time you did. Maybe he was a year or two ahead of you because I remember that he was in the Army during World War 11. I remember he was stationed not far from Washington. He came in and spent one or two weekends with us before he went overseas. Well, things move on. Now, he's got two sons, but one of them is down here at Mercerberg Academy and the other one goes off next year--they haven't decided yet where he'll go. Those boys may finally land at this little school up there called Amherst--1 don't know. They might.

Page  7474 It's a miqhty fine place. It must be from what I've read of it--mighty fine. I was recounting to you how these three great men, Harlan Stone, Dwight Morrow, and--who was the third one all in the same class up there together? Coolidqe. ltSilent Cal"--all in the same class there at Amherst, all right there together. How does tomorrow look? Can I come back and see you tomorrow? Yes, you can come back tomorrow.

Page  7575 Senate Office Buildinq, Wednesday, February 1, 1967. Yesterday when we turned off the machine, .you mentioned three men in New York City--Rev. Hillis. Newell D. Hillis. Holmes. John Haynes Holmes. Wise. - Stephen 5. Wise. People collect stranqe thinqs. listen not only for the substance that a man has to say, but the way in which whatever is said is said. These three are men who put winqs to words. I have the feelinq that you discover and - Well, now that's right. I may have told you this--1 did tell you this on another occasion. I knew an otolaryngologist here in Washington who told me that Bryan's vocal chords were a third larger than the average man's. That man Stephen S. Wise had a beautiful voice. You never heard him, did you? Yes, I did. You did hear him. Well, weren't you impressed with his lovely voice? I certainly was.

Page  7676 By the way, did you see where Martinelli was going to sing again? He's eighty-one years old, and he's going to sing again. How did vou discover these people in New York? How did I discover them? Yes. - Well, I don't know. That's been some time ago. I just kept looking for the best. I thought that they certainly--so far as I in my experience told me at the time, they were the three best. Then, as I told you--Hillis very often on Sunday night instead of preaching an orthodox sermon, he would lecture--maybe take some line, or play from Shakespeare and lecture which was very interesting--you know, very interesting, and John Haynes Holmes was quite a man. A firebrand. He was indeed--he sure was. Did you tell me the old church was no longer there? This was the.. . . The Unitarian Church. Where did they move to? This I don't know. This vou sort of sampled--a free lunch counter? That's right--it was free. A reqular lunch counter.

Page  7777 That's exactly what it was--three, I'd say, remarkable men. You might not always agree with them, but as long as they informed you and challenged your thought, that was the thing--put you to thinking. Turn on the fire. You also mentioned T. R. ItTeddytt--he was quite a boy. You know, ttTeddylt didn't have a very good speaking voice, but he had a way of sort of throwing it out. You know what I mean. He had a kind of animal-like ferocity. I think that's a good description. He would move up and down. That's right--he would move up and down--he sure had these darn microphones like you have today, I don have done. "Teddy" couldn't stay put--no, he couldn' say, he moved up and down. For him a speech was a total investment. That's what it was--by golly, it sure was. would. If you had t know what he would stay put. As you You had the time to sample these people. You know, we qot ,you in the prac- tice of the law briefly, before the war came, and with a fellow student; Bernard Gerson. That's right. Incidentally, he arqued with .you at Starke Universitv in that debate on

Page  7878 Woman's Suffraqe--he was with you. That's right--he was with me. If we didn't have this microphone, I'd tell you something interesting about him. Wh.y don't you tell me? I don't like to put it on the record. called him--his nickname. He was a sharp student. He was smart. Top student. It11 tell you what we boys No doubt about that--one of the best students there at the school--yes, he was. He was a smart boy, and he lived right down the street from where I lived up there on South Perry Street, so he and I would very often walk home together--you know what I mean--from school. Bernard was a smart boy. You didn't practice with him verv lonq. No, it was a short time because the war came on. I had to go to fight "the war to end all warstt and "to make the world safe for Democracy." There's something in, I think, the southern tradition that has a military overtone to it. It's different than the northern tradition. I don't know why it should be--well, for example, we don't have the likes of Georqe Wash- ington, except as a national symbol, but take General Robert E. Lee. He's not on1.y a human--you know, but a rallyinq point and a symbol.

Page  7979 That's what he is--exactly. Well, so many of our great military lead- ers came from down South--whether it was Andrew Jackson, Lee, or Stonewall Jackson--so many of them came from there. Do you know where Douglas Mac- Arthur came from? Charleston, South Carolina. Did you ever know him? 0nl.y from a distance. He was quite a guy--quite a fellow. He came from Charleston, South Carolina. We have a habit of throwinq to the surface somehow the men for the particu- lar task--we're fortunate, but when the war came along .... Do you know where General Marshall went to school? The Citadel, wasn't it? V. M. I. Virginia Military Institute. Marshall went to school down there. Great fellow too. I should say that he was a great fellow. Did you enlist in 1917? What I did--well, they first threw me out because that fellow wouldn't let me in. I told you about that fellow who heard my heart beating from be- hind, and I was twenty-six pounds underweight, so I had to get in on a waver from General William C. Gorgas--he was Surgeon General of the Army at that time. He came from Alabama, and he knew my father well. I told you before

Page  8080 how my father had operated on his brother. He brought his brother down from Tuscaloosa to have my father operate on him, and so when I got thrown out; in fact, just as the war started we had a rally at the Old Grand The- ater in Montgomery, and I was one of the speakers. Hilary A. Herbert who had been Secretary of the Navy under Grover Cleveland was there to speak, and I was one of the speakers. I really fought that war at that rally that night. I told my Daddy. I said, ttIfm glad I made that speech. I've got to go in that Army!" What I went out to be examined for was entrance to an officer's train- ing camp, and they threw me out. I was twenty-six pounds underweight, so my father took the matter up with General Gorgas, and, as I told you, Gen- eral Gorgas wrote this letter giving me a waiver, an exemption, and after that I had no trouble. I went on in. He was a qreat man--General Gorqas. He was quite a man. A handsome man. Yes, he was. Well, you see, Walter Reed and those folks found out that the mosquito was the vector, the criminal that carried the malaria, but Gorgas is the man who went down there and wiped out those mosquitoes. When Gorgas got down there, some of the old machinery--you see, the French had tried to build that canal before we got down there, and some of that old machinery was still there. They had to retreat. That mosquito had licked them--yellow fever had licked them. They had to pull out of there. They couldn't do the job. Gorgas went down there and licked the mosquitoes.

Page  8181 He fouqht them to a stand still. Talking about that, did I tell you the story of Gorgas? They had a commission composed of three members to be responsible for digging the ca- nal. They were sent down there to carry out the project, the plan, and twice they complained to "Teddytt Roosevelt--he was President at that time-- that this darn doctor was trying to tell them how to run their business down there. The idea of this doctor trying to tell them! That wasn't his business and twice they recommended that Gorgas be recalled and be brought back home, and the second time "Teddy" got this recommendation, it worried him, naturally--so he sent for a man named William H. Welch, the great pathologist. He'd been at New York University, but at that time he was at Johns Hopkins University. He was one of the big four--you know, and Welch told ttTeddy't, "Well, Mr. President, you keep your faith in Gorgas, you keep him in Panama, and youtll get your canal." "Teddy" kept him in Panama, and we got our canal in spite of the damn mosquitoes and all the yellow fever. Great fellow. Great fellow--Gorgas was a great fellow. Tenacious. Tenacious--that's right. Once you qot into the Arm.y where did you so? This is a blank paqe to me. First, I went to Fort Oglethorpe which is up from Chattanooga, Tennes-

Page  8282 see, where I got my training. Then I went to Camp Severe, South Carolina, and then I went to what was then Camp Meade--now Fort Meade--over here in Maryland, and then right near the end, our outfit got sent overseas. 1'11 have to be fair with you. That war got over real quick, and so we didn't get to see any real action. You know what I mean. You see, we didn't de- clare war until April, 1917, and we had to train our troops and get ready for it--we weren't really ready--and the war was over with on November 11, 1918, so we didn't have any time. There wasn't a long period there. Pearl Harbor came in the Second World War on December 7, 1941, and the Germans didn't surrender until April, May, 1945, and we didn't get rid of the Japanese until August, 1945, so that war went on for nearly four years, but this first one was over in a very short time, and as I say, it took some time to train. We had some training--you know. Not only that, our industrial development was desiqned to be at maximum in 1919. That's exactly right. You hit it square on the head. That takes time. That takes time. It sure does. You can't do that overnight. How did you like military life? Well, I was proud to wear my country's uniform. The only trouble was--talking about being a lawyer. They designated me, when I was at Fort Meade, as defense counsel, to defend some soldiers before court martials, and I won so many cases that they removed me.

Page  8383 That's wonderful. Well, 1'11 tell you what happened, what the situation was. You see, in that war you didn't have to go to Europe to die. to the battlefield. There was so damn much of that flu! I You didn't have to go It was terrible. Right over there at Fort Meade, they had those caskets just piled up over there. What for? For those boys who died from the flu, even though we hadn't gotten to the battlefields. Talk about those caskets.... I know what vou mean. You see the psychology that those caskets created over there? Yes. - And a lot of them did die from the flu. It was a stranqe occurrence. Strange occurrence. Inexorable. Yes, and as you know, at that time that flu was pretty bad. Maybe I shouldn't tell you this. time to help us train because they'd had all that experience. been in the war since 1914, as you know, and the interesting thing about them--they were awfully nice men, very fine, fine men, but they didn't take many baths. They used cologne. We had some French officers over there at that France had

Page  8404 I.Eow about that! They were fine men. I want to tell you this. They were mighty fine men, and they did an awful good job helping us train. They'd been through that ordeal over there. They knew what it was, and they were most helpful. They did a very fine job, but it was rather amusing that they didn't bathe much. They used that cologne. Thev .just didn't cotton to soap and water. They didn't cotton to soap and water. They just used that cologne, but they were fine men, awfully fine, and they did a fine job in helping us train. We had a great need for them, and they certainly met that need beautifully, but they didn't cotton to soap and water, as you say, and I imagine--well, wasn't that pretty true of the history of France at that time, I suppose? I don't know. Not takins baths was the history of American boys in the Second World War. The only savinn qrace was that we all smelled equally bad. You all smelled equally bad, and that settled it. We didn't need coloqne. You didn't need cologne, but they did use that cologne. That's precious. How did you become so successful as a defense counsel-- that's qreat. Oh, I don't know. I guess I was lucky. I worked up my cases.

Page  8585 Success is in the preparation. That's right. Trying cases is like anything else, by golly. There's no substitute for preparation. None. I suspect that's just one thins where you have to .jump in and qet wet all over. There's no tiptoeinq to it. No, there's no tiptoeing to it. You can't pussyfoot there. You have to go on in, my boy. You sure have. No tiptoeing there, no sir, not a bit. Well, I'm pleased to hear that you were such a qood defense counsel. I don't mean to brag on myself, but that's the way it turned out. When you deal with a human problem, ,you deal with a human problem. That's right. And if you can bend a requlation, .you make it live by twistinq it a bit. That's right. Either prior to qoinq into the Arm.y or just prior to qoinq into the Army you qot elected to Montqomery's Board of Education. That's right. Was this the county? No, this was the City of Montgomery, Alabama. How did this come about?

Page  8686 At that time you were elected by the City Commissioners--they were the city fathers, so to speak, and I guess I can ascribe that as much as anything else to my father's influence because I had just gotten back from Columbia University. The fact of the business--what really happened is that I was elected to the Board, and then the Board had five members on it, and the Board members themselves chose the president--see. They elected the president. They were just good to me, I guess. Look, it's a door to qo throuqh. It's a door to go through--that's right. And it does provide a staqe where you can develop concern, some more in- timate knowledqe and detail. No doubt about that. You were a Vounq fellow too. I had hair on my head--that's right. You stuck at that throuqh 1922. Sure did. They were all mighty good to me. In thinkinq about the first election, I've been throuqh the papers over in the Old Senate Office Buildinq, and there's a whole collection of papers on the first election. It takes--well, I don't know what it takes to throw that hat out there for the first time. That's not easy, to fence in a district and aqree to represent a district. One has to know it so deeply

Page  8787 because you iqnore whatever it is at your peril. In a wav that's what representation means. That's true. There are some thinqs that fiqure--for example, the Ford offer for ni- trates--a question for the rural counties, I suspect, and federal sup- port for education which is quite early .... Talking about that Ford offer--you see, in 1916, Congress saw the war clouds coming more and more towards our country, and Congress passed what is known as the National Defense Act of 1916, and they put in Section 124 which section authorized the construction of these nitrate plants. At that time we had two processes for taking the nitrates out of the air. One was the Itcyanamid process". The other was the "Haber process", so they had in mind building two plants one using the "cyanamid process" and one using the "Haber process", and they then and there dedicated those plants--1 say "dedicated", but the language of the Act was that they should be used for defense in time of war and be used for agriculture in time of peace. They built them, but they didn't get through building them really until the war was just about over, and the Wilson Dam which was named for Woodrow Wilson was built there at Muscle Shoals where the plants were, wasn't completed-- well, it was supposed to supply the power for the operation of those plants, and that dam wasn't built for some several years after the war. One of the questions in that election was how to make Section 124 qet up and walk. That's right--move on, do the job it was intended to do. Sure, get

Page  8888 that nitrate. I think I told you the first naval battle of World War I-- didn't I tell you where the first naval battle of World War I was fought? You would have thought that the first naval battle would have been fought up there in the North Sea, or the Atlantic, or maybe down in the Mediter- ranean. You know where it was fought? Where? - Off the coast of Chile--way down there in South America. The Germans had sent merchant ships down there to get Chilean nitrate--that's bird dung-- and to bring that all the way to Germany to make gun powder, and those mer- chant ships were escorted by ships of war, and the British sent their ships of war down there, and the first naval battle was fought off the coast of Chile. Britain was fighting to keep that bird dung from coming in to Ger- many. Interfere with the process. That's right. That's exactly right--keep that stuff from going in there to make that gun powder. Think of it--the first naval battle of World War I--it wasn't fought up in the North Sea, or in the Atlantic somewhere out near Germany and Britain, or even down in the Mediterranean. It was fought way down in Chile in South America. Those merchant ships were down there to bring in that Chilean nitrate which, as I say, was bird dung out of which you got your nitrogen to make your gun powder. The British sent war ships down these to intercept them, and they had a battle down there-- the first naval battle of World War I. Isn't that an interesting story? Very--but even the forward lookinq thinkinq of our own qovernment in the

Page  8989 development .... Yes, in 1916--in the development of those nitrate plants. I tell you we had two forward looking men, if I may say that, at that time. We had Woodrow Wilson as President of the United States, and we had a man named Newton D. Baker. Secretary of War. Incidentally, Wilson said that Baker was the most valuable public servant he ever knew. 1'11 say this about him. He was a brilliant man. Of all the witnesses I have heard before committees, my many long years here, I never heard a more brilliant, or finer witness than Newton D. Baker. He knew how to present his case, and he did it beautifully. He was quite a man, and, of course, you know what kind of man Woodrow Wilson was. They saw ahead. That was way back in 1916. What made you decide to qet in the race for Conqress? I just thought I'd like to be a Congressman. I'd served on the Board of Education. I'd been active in the American Legion--Commander of the Montgomery Post of the American Legion. I had been a member of the Rotary Club. I'd been around quite a bit in different civic matters, and I just thought I'd like to be a Congressman. It just happened that my predecessor who had been Chief Justice of the Su- preme Court of Alabama and then resigned that and ran for Congress and was elected--Judge John R. Tyson--he died unexpectedly. an operation. He went to the Mayo Clinic, and I have a great appreciation of the Mayo Clinic. have a tremendous regard for the Mayo Clinic. I was operated on out there I'd been in other public affairs. He went out to have I wouldn't say anything unkind about them because I

Page  9090 twice myself, and I have a tremendous regard for them, but he went out there, and he didn't die from the operation. Do you know what he died from? Ether pneumonia. That ether business had danger in it--developed that pneumonia. I was with a friend last night who was telling me how he had this rheumatic fever and how the doctors had been unable to diagnose it. They didn't know what was wrong with him, and they didn't know what to do about it. They finally sent him out to the Mayo Clinic, and they found the trou- ble, and he got well. That Mayo Clinic is a wonderful place, as you know, a wonderful place. This then was an accident that removed Judqe Tyson? Yes, but I had pretty stout opposition. Oh, bov, that was a horse race! Well, the man who ran against me was one of the leading lawyers in Alabama--see, Mr. Ray Rushton was a very outstanding man in Alabama. He was old enough to be my Daddy, to tell you the truth, and a very outstand- ing lawyer, very outstanding lawyer with a very outstanding reputation, but we carried the message to the people, and we won. Accordinq to the correspondence, .you did cover ever.y c0unt.y in that campaiqn. Oh, we did. In that day and time you didn't have television and ra- dio. You went to the people. You went to the people, by golly. There's one fellow who fiqures in this correspondence.

Page  9191 Who's that? Ira Champion. Yes, he was a good supporter of mine. He had worked, as I recall, in the state government when Thomas E. Kilby was Governor of Alabama, and he was quite a--what we called in that day and time, a dry too. He didn't believe in liquor--whatever you and I might believe today. Ira was a good supporter of mine. County which is one of the most populous counties in the District next to Montgomery County, and Ira was a good friend of mine. After I got to Con- gress, I got him a job up here in Washington. State Department. He was born and raised, and came from down in Pike He worked down here in the There was another man runninq-Sanders. He was a doctor. Was ,he? Yes, he was a doctor. Yes, I had a man who was one of the most out- standing lawyers in Alabama, had a state-wide reputation as a very fine outstanding lawyer, and Dr. Sanders who was a doctor right there in that town of Troy that I just spoke about. There were three of us, but I had a doctor for me that did a job, and that was my Daddy--see. Funny thing-- although Dr. Sanders was a doctor and was in splendid standing with the Alabama Medical Society, no criticism of him at all, and he had a lot of doctor friends, most of the doctors in my District then composed of nine counties supported me because of my Daddy. As I say, most of them through

Page  9292 the years had brought their patients to Montgomery for my father to operate on them. and a good reputation, and was a good man and all that, the doctors ral- lied to me on account of my Dad. In spite of the fact that Dr. Sanders had an awful good standing Ace in the hole. My ace in the hole was my Dad, and the doctors rallied to me to beat the band. You announced in April. March, I think. And it wasnlt until Auqust.. .. You see, we had a Democratic primary and then the election was in Au- gust, but whoever got nominated in the primary in that day and time was elected. Once you got nominated, there was no question about your elec- tion. You were in. You were in. The primary came, as I remember, about July, and about thirty days afterward we had the election, but as I say, in that day and time if you got nominated, that was the end, so I really got elected for all practical purposes in the primary in July. You covered the whole Second District. I did indeed, I kept moving. I had an old Dodge car. Did vou? It was an open car. It didn't have any windows. You couldn't turn

Page  9393 the windows up. The most you could do if it was chilly, or rain, was put up what they called rain curtains. Yes, I covered that District--1 sure did. The "Advertiser"--I quess the Montqomery "Advertiser" published an editor- ial dealinq with the question of reliqion in this campaiqn. Do .you remem- ber that? I can't say that I do. That's been a good while ago. You refresh my recollection. Someone--well, I can't say that. I don't know, but the purpose of the "Advertiser" was to scotch and stop rumors about the nature of your reli- gion. As I remember it, and it was last summer.... That you read it. Yes. - I'd like to go back and read that sometime. 1'11 brinq it in. You bring it in. I'd like to read it. Where did you find that edi- torial? In your papers. I'd be interested in reading that. Boy, that's been a long time ago! M.y on1.v point was that if a hole appears in the seam, you've qot to stop it. You've qot to meet it somehow.

Page  9494 That's right. You're right about that. It11 brinq that. Bring it in. I'd love to see it. That was in 1923, and this is 1967. 23 from 67? No time at all. It was a close race. That's right. I had two good opponents, and one of them, as I say, was one of the most outstanding, ablest lawyers in Alabama. I think he got an awful shock when he got defeated. What is it--.youth will be served in 1923? Somehow or other vou communi- cated to the people. I think there was some evidence that he didn't cover the District the wa.y you did. He campaigned pretty hard, but of course, he wasn't quite as young as I was. Then I think another thing about it--1 think he felt pretty confi- dent. kind of thing that he thought--I'm sure he thought he was going to win. His standing had been such--he'd been so outstanding and all that That's the first rule not to break--never underestimate an adversar,y. If that played a role--fine. That's right--fine. That was a different aqe and time in a lot of wa.ys from the current one-- different pace. Different entirely.

Page  9595 It wasn't even clear what it was to be a conqressman--.vou know. That is true. The sessions were short. Yes, well, I told you one year we met in January and adjourned gener- ally the last of June. The Appropriation Bills had to be passed by the first of July, so we got through in June. The next year we came here on the first Monday in December and recessed for Christmas, and on the 4th of March when that clock got to midnight, Congress was ended by the Constitu- tion. Things were different then. We hadn't gone into all these different things. We hadn't heard of NIH. You had the Surgeon General's Library down here, but we didn't have the National Library of Medicine, or things like that, and if it hadn't been for men with the great vision and inspira- tion of John 5. Billings, we wouldn't have had the Surgeon General's Library down here. He was one of the great figures in American history. As I told you the other day, he designed the Massachusetts General Hospital, and he also designed the Johns Hopkins Hospital. That's going some, wasn't it? A fruitful fellow. Who was Kenneth Murphv? Kenneth Murphy was the son-in-law and secretary of Judge Tyson, my predecessor, who died as I said from ether pneumonia, and when I got elect- ed, I kept Kenneth Murphy as my secretary. He had married Dorsey Tyson who was a daughter of Judge Tyson, John R. Tyson, who was my predecessor, so Kenneth Murphy served there for a while as my secretary. Apparently--well, what I remember of the papers, Judqe Tvson himself had

Page  9696 indicated at some time that if for any reason he was not to return to Con- qress, he wanted you to follow him. Do .you remember that? I don't know that, but I know this--the old Judge and I were always friendly. John R. Tyson was a friend. He was quite a fellow. He'd been Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Alabama, and he'd won that state-wide election, hotly contested. He'd beaten a man from Birmingham named Weatherly. It was a hot race. Then he served, and then he voluntarily retired from the Supreme Court of Alabama and practiced law for I don't know, several years, and then he decided he'd like to come to Congress. He ran for Congress, and he died, I think, about his second term. He hadn't been here for three years when he died. He was not a young man, and I say he died not from the operation, but from ether pneumonia. You see, we didn't have the spinal in those days, but ether, and an old man like that got pneumonia, and we didn't have any antibiotics for this pneumonia. When you think about this spinal anesthesia and antibiotics and the changes that they have made! It wasn't anything unusual for a person to die from pneumonia in that day and generation. Just like I said in World War I--some of those boys died from that flu. The reason I mentioned Kenneth Murphy was because it is he who in corres- pondence indicated that Judqe Tyson was interested in havinq you follow him to Conqress. Well, Judge Tyson had been my friend, and Kenneth supported me in my race for Congress. The Judge and I had always been--well, when he was Chief Justice of the Supreme Court I had known him for a great many years.

Page  9797 He was a lot older man than I was--let's see how old Judge Tyson was when he died--he wasn't a young man--since we're studying history these days. He'd been throuqh the rouqh and tumble. Yes, sure. John R. Tyson--born 1856 and served from March 25 until his death in Rochester, Minnesota--they didn't say Mayo Clinic, but that's the right way to put it because I'm a great admirer of Rochester, Minnesota. I've got these Mayo Clinic marks on me. If I had to be operated on tomor- row, I think I'd go back out there. He died on March 27, 1923--sixty-seven years old. In that day and generation when we had no antibiotics, sixty- seven was a pretty ripe age. He'd had a full existence. He'd had a full existence. In that day and time if you lived to be sixty-seven, you were doing pretty good. Sure was. You know, this is a kind of accident that livinq is in a way that projects .vou into Conqress. Yes, it was an accident, by golly--just as you say. Funny thing--in that day and time I thought he was right old. Sixty-seven was a pretty ripe old age in that day and time. I don't recall just what his operation was--an abdominal operation of some kind. Of course, if he had lived in the day of Joseph Lister, he couldn't have had the operation. As I told you the other day, they had a law in England prohibiting abdominal opera- tions and the cry was. "Down with the belly rippers! Down with the belly rippers !

Page  9898 At least Judqe T.vson had a chance. At least he had a chance. That ether was what it was that knocked him out. He doesn't seem so eld today, but in that day and time he seemed old to me--1 remember him well. He was still active. His mind was still fine, but not too many folks got to be the biblical three score and ten. As you know, at the beginning of the century the life expectancy of the average American was about forty-seven years. Now the life expectancy is the biblical three score and ten--seventy years. We've moved up from for- ty-seven to seventy. That isn't bad. That ought to be very encouraging to you. I'm in favor of that. You know, doggone it, when I think about what we've done these last twenty years, it's really remarkable! Incredible, really. Incredible--the way you can go in now and clean out this carotid ar- tery. a blood vessel. One damn thing that they haven't really been able to do anything about, or mighty damn little, or practically nothing, is this can- cer business. Is that right? The way you can go in and put in several feet of plastic instead of Yes. - I was with some people last night. They were talking about maybe they had gotten some kind of an answer to leukemia, but my friend Sidney Farber--do you know Sidney Farber up there at Boston? I never knew a more

Page  9999 dedicated man than Sidney Farber. He's been working for the last fifteen years, I think, on this battle on leukemia, and all he can get is what he calls a remission. That means a child gets leukemia and might live two years longer, or four, or five, or seven, eight, nine, or even ten years, but that's no answer. What is it Rachel? Well, you see, I have been talking and having a wonderful time here.

Page  100100 Senate Office Buildinq, Friday, February 3, 1967. Last time we talked we qot you elected. That's right--1 remember. I've shown you some papers from the files todaL. Hold tight to those papers now because they are very valuable. They sure are. pected thinqs that emerqed, and some of the fire fiqhters who were out on the hustinqs sendinq information to you. They show some of the flavor of the campaiqn, the unex- That's right. But you're elected and you fall heir to--well, it's like .jumpinq into a stream that's already swollen and flowinq by. You've described the Sec- ond District as a rural district. At that time it was--it was cotton really. It's changed a lot since then--we've got a lot of cattle down there and some peanuts. eat some peanuts? Did you ever Yes. - Well, the main crop in that day and time was cotton. When ,vou represent, as ,you were representinq, and these were your consti- tuents--one of the first thinqs that comes into the field in Conqress is the tariff act--remember McNary-Haqen? It was a little late--perhaps even

Page  101101 a little outdated. It was, wasn't it. It didnlt help much. It was a little outdated. It was late nineteenth century thinkinq for twentieth century problems. I think you're right. Out of this orqanizations beqin to develop, and one of them is the Farm Bureau Federation--an interestinq qroup of people, I think some from your home city and one in particular, Ed O'Neal, a qreat character. Ed O'Neal was quite a fellow. Incidentally, his uncle had been Gover- nor of Alabama, and he was also a direct descendent of John Coffee, and John Coffee was a great lieutenant of a man named Andrew Jackson. Did you ever hear of a man named Andrew Jackson? Well, Coffee was a great lieutenant of Andrew Jackson and on his mother's side Ed D'Neal was a direct descen- dent of Coffee. We have a county in Alabama named Coffee--named for Gener- al John Coffee. John Coffee was quite a fellow, and Ed, you see, was presi- dent of the Alabama Farm Bureau Federation, and he and I made many a trip around Alabama speaking in these counties to the organizers in the county, and then he became president of the American Farm Bureau Federation. He was that when he retired. Isn't it a hell of a thing when you get to an age when you have to retire? I think we ought to pass a law against that.

Page  102102 You do that, and 1'11 support it. You know, feelinq your way as a younq- ster--the Alabama deleqation had a number of people in it that had a lot of aqe and time in the House. What does a .younq fellow do when he comes up here? I would imaqine that .you did pretty much what .you did at the University of Alabama--1 don't know. I did the best I could--sure did. You see, one reason I went on the military committee was that we had jurisdiction over these plants there at Muscle Shoals. That was established really, basically, as a military pro- ject for the defense of our country to get that nitrogen to make that gun powder. We hadn't gotten the nuclear bomb then. Then secondarily, it was also for agriculture in time of peace. Then I told you about having that field right there in my home town-- Maxwell Field--that they were about to abandon. That would have been a ter- rible thing. Why the great Air University is down there today! The heart of the Air Corps is right there today. The intellectual part of the Air Corps is there at the Air University. I qet the sense in looking through the files, that a qood bit of this in terms of representinq one's District is like finding a hole in the dyke and putting your finqer there, and for a lot of reasons--the national adminis- tration is Republican and they have a political philosophy, or thinking, which was perhaps better in the late nineteenth century. They weren't open to conviction anymore. They were qoing to turn the clock back. What they forgot so far as water power was concerned was that a fellow like Newton D. Baker had floated a new power po1ic.y.

Page  103103 That's right. And had developed the new policy, and I think that it had been carried on under Garrison who replaced Baker, so that there was a tool, but--,you know, words aren't self-activatinq. It takes people. It takes people--yes. Here--well, lookinq at it from today the development of rivers and harbors and water power has opened up opportunity tremendously. Oh my. You wonder why they didn't see it. Well, they didn't see it, and we couldn't get either Calvin Coolidge, or Herbert Hoover interested--no, they were not interested. They finally built the Boulder Dam out on the Colorado River and named it the Hoover Dam. That was an exception to his thinkinq. That was an exception to his thinking--sure. It sure was. Definitely that was an exception. I don't know. I don't mean to draw any indictment here, but it may have been that if those fellows had had more vision along the lines we're talking now, we might have avoided that terrible depression which our people suffered--a terrible thing. We had bread lines, people on the streets selling apples and all that kind of thing--just anything to make some money. buy food for people who couldn't buy food for themselves. I remember right there in Montgomery my father contributed to They had this

Page  104104 bread line where they were lined up to get something to eat. It was terri- ble, a terrible thing. People were out of jobs, and there were no jobs to be had--see. There was no reason we shouldn't have gone forward there. None at all. Well, we didn't do anything to inspire--well, there was nothing there to bring us forward, so we went into that horrible depression where so many people suffered so much. I think that you find when people are willinq to talk about labels, in- stead of contents, there's an unrea1it.y about it. Yes, there's an unreality about it. You know what the Good Book says, "Where there is no vision, the people perish." In the Coolidge-Hoover days we lacked that vision, so we got into that terrible depression. But it wasn't without idea. Some of the letters I have read--Colonel Worthinqton, Ed O'Neal, and that's not all. Old man Worthington was quite a fellow--I*11 tell you he was. I wish you could have known him. I wish I could have too--he writes some marvelous letters. Doesn't he? Oh boy, riqht on the line--qood. You know, before he became head of the Tennessee Valley Improvement

Page  105105 Association, he'd done a good deal of work for the L & N Railroad--build- ing those railroads. We had to have transportation, didn't we? Sure. - You couldn't get your products to market without transportation. Riqht. Of course, back in those old days when he was with the L & N Railroad, we didn't have any automobiles, or paved roads. About all we had was mules, wagons, or ox carts-see what I mean. It helped chanqe the face of the map. Of course it did--it certainly did. A qood bit of the opposition--1 quess it had to wait until--oh, the Public Utility Holdinq Company Act in the 1930's because the opposition to Muscle Shoals continued. That continued. When Franklin Roosevelt came in, we got a change then. I remember my first conference with Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He was down at Warm Springs, Georgia, down there in his little cottage where, by the way--you know, it was there that he died on the 12th day of April, 1945. He had that stroke and died. He had gone down there on a little rest, a visit to get a little rest after the campaign and everything, and I made an engagement and went over there to see him and what we talked about was this very thing--the Tennes- see River and the development of the Tennessee Valley, the whole project

Page  106106 which afterwards became, and what we now know as, the TVA--Tennessee Valley Authority. By the way, in that day and time the President didn't enter office until March the 4th. He became President on March the 4th, and I was there with him when he signed this TVA Bill which was on May 18th of that same year. We really made speed. 1'11 say you did. March 4th to May 18th was really going some. Well, you'd had that case all prepared since 1923. Well, we'd been working on it since 1923. 1'11 say .you had. We'd been working on it since 1923. Just to preserve it. As I told you the other day, and I want to render justice where jus- tice is due, while I was working in the House, my friend of that day and time, George W. Norris, was working in the Senate. Incidentally, he'd made this trip into Canada, and they had pioneered in the Province of Ontario in some of this rural electrification. I remember the day when we sat down with the President to talk about what kind of legislation we ought to have. We not only talked about these nitrate plants for the farmer and finishing the Wilson Dam and all that business, but we also talked about rural electrification, getting this power out to the farm homes.

Page  107107 He had a tremendous dream about a Canadian-American network that would just brinq the source of cheap power to people--furnish 0pportunit.y. That's right. Open it up. Open it up--that's exactly right. Sad to say that we passed that bill in 1933, and George Norris was defeated in 1942. He even broke with President Hoover. Oh yes, he did. He felt stronqly. You know what the Bible says--"A prophet is not without honor in his own land." He felt stronqly on that. Sure he did---no doubt about that. I remember a trip that he and I made after the TVA got started, and we got this rural electrification started down there. It was a visit we made together. We went to visit some of those farm homes where instead of having to go out to that well and pump that water, get it in that bucket, and then carry it all the way to the house--electricity was bringing that water into the house. He looked at some of those things, and I could see the tears coming down his cheeks. They were tears of joy--really, tears of joy! He was a remarkable man.

Page  108108 He sure was. It was all changed. You may have seen this some time. George W. Nor- ris National Centennial Conference. That was in 1961, and there s a little speech in here by a man named Lister Hill--page 32. I caption i "As I re- member George W. Norris." That's what I took as my text. There are some other good speeches in there too. He was quite a fellow. He was quite a man. Let me see. He was born, as I recall it, in Ohio and then went on out to Nebraska. You know what interests me and I think would tease some of m,y northern friends. What's that? The waV in which an idea has to qet up and walk. It does. You know, it's interesting and the files disclose this; that the "proqres- sive"--whatever that may mean--or the free, or the whole question of what constitutes opportunity emerqes most stronq1.y in the southern states--water power, for example--and not in the northern states. the dayliqhts out of some of my old colleagues who have never been, as many people in the Senate and House in those early days and times had never been, to see Muscle Shoals. You were tr,yinq to corral a number of them. It would ,just tease You see, in the South we had to struggle--to be frank about it--though

Page  109109 I don't know whether I ought to get into this or not, but after the Civil War, the people who controlled the Republican Party--they had no interest in any development in the South. The fact of the business is we had those terrible freight rate discriminations. I was chairman of the subcommittee that investigated those freight discriminations way back about 1940, and the lowest discrimination against the South was thirty-seven percent. Did you know that? You've heard of Pittsburgh plus? Oh yes--that was terrible. If you owned a plant right next door to the United States Steel Plant-- its name was Tennessee Coal and Iron, but it was a subsidiary of United States Steel--and you owned the plant right next door to it. Suppose you went right next door, knocked on the door and said, ((1 want to buy some steel." All right. price of steel, but you also had to pay what the freight rate would be if the steel had been shipped from Pittsburgh down to Birmingham, Alabama. They'd sell you steel, but you not only had to pay the The basinq point system--yes. That's right. Don't you see what we were up against! You talk about the development of the Tennessee River--why sure, the Ohio River was developed long before the Tennessee River. They went ahead with developments up there. See what I mean? I got an amendment on the Transportation Act directing the Interstate Commerce Commiss I got two Alabam

Page  110110 that that Commission went forward and did the job. The matter of freight rates was terribly against us so far as any development was concerned. Another thing that hurt us terribly was the tariff. We had to sell sixty-five percent of our cotton--and our economy was largely a cotton economy, but we had to sell sixty-five percent of that cotton in foreign markets, and on all the stuff we bought we had to pay this high tariff-- see what I mean? Thev had vou over a barrel. Yes, they had us over a barrel. That's riqht. They had us over a barrel, and then the third thing was this. A bank in New York might loan money to some industry up there for half the rate of interest that they would loan money to a new plant trying to get started and operate in Alabama, in the South. We had those three barriers, and I think President Wilson would have done much about that situation just as Franklin Delano Roosebelt did, but the trouble was that he had a war sit- uation on his hands. We didn't get into the war, as we were saying the oth- er day, until April, 1917, but after all, the war started back in 1914, so we had this war situation which made it very difficult to do things here at home which he otherwise would have done, if he hadn't had that war situation That World War I presented a terrible problem for him. Sure--the proqram he presented was in the direction of qrowth and develop- men t . -

Page  111111 His program was for growth and development, but he couldn't go for- ward as Franklin Roosevelt did because of that doggone war we were in--see. I was in that war. That was "the war to end all wars", but we didn't quite end wars. We did not--no. It's an interestinq period--well, it's the play of forces. Isn't that right. It's like a biq orqan, and thev sort of come to loqqerheads, join for a moment and then separate aqain. For example, even a fellow like Norris--if you put his notion of qovernment operation in the context of a Republican Administration--nobody really wanted it. They would have killed it b.y ad- ministration. Why of course--that's right. So it depended on whose ox was beinq qored. Yes. Well, I told you the other day about my going down with my col- league, Congressman Miles C. Allgood. I took him down with me to see Pres- ident Hoover about doing something about Muscle Shoals. ItWell, who could I get to operate that thing?" Well, hell--since we passed the act on May 8, 1933, that's been how many years ago; thirty-four years ago--we've had no trouble getting some- body down there to operate that thing. That was Hoover's thinking. See what I mean--ttWho could I get to operate that thing?" That was his thinking. One difficulty in the twenties was that the only access vou had was the

Page  112112 press. That's right. The whole question of communication even in the Conqress--the effort to brinq those from other sections of the country down to Muscle Shoals. There was a series of people you tried to brinq throuqh Muscle Shoals .just to ex- pand their understandinq because they came from a different reqion. That's exactly right. We had no radio. We had no television. Many people who miqht have been useful, or influential, couldn't be because they hadn't seen it. Old Colonel Worthinqton was in favor of brinqinq them down. - That old man had vision. He was my braintruster. He was a damn good man. It was a tragedy that he had to die when he did. But the tenacity of pushinq an idea--1eqislation. It really takes a long time. - It was a long, long hard struggle. Remember that war was over with in 1918, and it wasn't until 1933, that we got that legislation. All those years of Harding, of Coolidge, and of Hoover--there were those plants built and idle, and for quite a while the Republicans wouldn't even finish the construction of the Wilson Dam. They wouldn't even finish the construction of that Wilson Dam. They reallv didn't understand the nature of American opportunity. I don't think they did, did they?

Page  113113 No, thev didn't. I don't think they did. They understood it for their purposes, but theV didn't want to share it. They didn't want to share it beyond their purposes. The record is qreat on that, and there's no question about it. They didn't want to share it. They did not. But to qo back and keep fiqhtinq and to naq--you know, fiqht this querilla warfare as Worthinqton did. He was a braintruster. That's what he was. By golly, he was right there--smart, able as he could be. He didn't miss a thinq. That old man didn't miss a thing. He could draw distinctions between more and more. That's right--he sure could. You qot a tremendous education in this, didn't .you? You certainly do. It's like neqotiatinq with a parade, and on a clear day that's hard. By golly, it sure is.

Page  114114 Just to keep pressinq. Some of the rivers within the State of Alabama be- qan to be developed, local sources of power, but the whole overview.... It wasn't there. No, thev missed it entirely. There's no state in the Union that is more blessed with waterways than Alabama. Wonderful. Marvelous. Wonderful. Marvelous names too--the Coosa. Yes, those Indian names. The Chattahoochee--exactly. My wife came from Eufaula, Alabama, which is right on the banks of the Chattahoochee, right on the Alabama line. That river is the dividing line at that point. The Eufaula was a tribe of Indians--the Eufaula Tribe of Indians. They afterwards went on to Oklahoma. I did a little time at Fort Benninq, so the Chattahoochee and I are old friends. If you were at Fort Benning, you knew the Chattahoochee well. Of course you did. Marvelous name for a river. Isn't that a marvelous name for a river--Chattahoochee. An Indian. When were you at Fort Benning?

Page  115115 1943. - You must have been a doughboy. I was. - D-;I you carry that pack on your -ack? We sort of shook that off after a while. It was a little too much to carry around. You couldn't run fast enouqh. In my day and time we had that pack. We had them close bv. Well, if you were at Benning you were practically on the banks of the Chattahoochee--sure, and you were damn near in Alabama. You were right across. I could wave. Yes, you could wave to the folks over in Alabama--sure. Alabama is an Indian name. Do you know what it means? No, I don't. "Here we rest." Alabama is an Indian name that we got from the Indi- ans--"Here we rest .'I That's qreat. Isn't that great--certainly.

Page  116116 How--in this earlv period were there anv efforts made within Vour own Dis- trict at diversification? When did cattle become important and peanuts? Sheep? There's a Sheep Growers Association down there. There are some sheep. They don't compare with the cattle. I think that most of that came pretty much after World War 11, but we've gone ahead more and more with the cattle and peanut development and other diversified crops too. We've gotten away from that one crop system--away from "Cotton is King." What is it, John Ed?

Page  117117 Senate Office Buildinq, Monda.v, Februarv 6, 1967. We qot you elected in 1923. That's right. You'd never been a representative before. I don't know what it is to be a representative. Why don't you try sometime? Well, it's pretty late to make me over into somethinq stranqe and lovely. You've had this experience. What is beinq part of a deleqation?--when you come for the first time into somethinq and are part of somethinq that has an accredited past, has a tradition, momentum; suddenly .vou're there, and you're a junior member. That's right. What does it all add up to? How does it strike you? Do vou remember at all? - I'd say that when I came up here we had a good delegation from Alabama. We had some good men. Stronq men. Most of them were older men than I was, of course, but they were all good strong men. I don't think that any state in the Union had a better delegation than Alabama had--a stronger delega- tion. We had a strong delegation. We had a good delegation.

Page  118118 How much aid does a Vounq fellow get, say, from a fellow like Representative William E. Bankhead, or Oscar Underwood? These are qiants to a .younq fellow. Both of those men were awfully good and mighty kind to me--mighty good. I never asked them for any advise, or any help in any way that I didn't get it--mighty good. They were both very fine men. You had a lot qoinq for you. You have a lot going for you when you have men like that to advise with you and help you, help counsel you. They were fine men. Did .you feel like you belonqed? I had joined the team, so to speak. Underwood was especially a fine man. You know, let me tell you this about Underwood. He was the Democrat- ic Leader in the United States Senate before he had finished his first term in the Senate. You see, he'd been Democratic Leader in the House of Repre- sentatives. He'd also been the author of the Underwood Tariff Bill, and then he came over to the Senate, and before he had finished his first term in the Senate, he was elected Democratic Leader. That shows the type of man he was, a man of real character as well as real ability and real devo- tion to his country and to his job. There's somethinq about breathinq in a new know, and to navi- qate the shoals, and there are shoals. Oh yes, there are shoals. You're going to find shoals wherever you go. These are shark infested waters.

Page  119119 That's right. There are shark infested waters. It isn't all smooth sailing. You had your problems. By golly, you do. But the function of a teacher in a wa.y is to take the flashliqht and sa.y, "Look out for that stone!" That's right--beware! Look out! If vou can have that kind of relationship, as vou miqht have had with Representative Underwood, or Representative Bankhead.... It's helpful. Yes. You absorb a lot. You sure do. And at the same time they are wise enouqh to let you be. That's right. Because therets no substitute for the actual wettinq of your own toes. That's right. I had another good friend up there, Representative Henry B. Steagall. He afterwards became Chairman of the House Committee on Banking and Currency. He represented the Third District, and I repre- sented the Sixth District. Those two Districts are right adjoining one another. They were neighbors. He came from down at Ozark, Alabama, down

Page  120in Dale County, and Henry was an awful good friend of mine too, and a wise man. He got to be Chairman of the House Committee on Banking and Currency and did an awful good job, and did a good job particularly in the field of finances which was important. Back in the old days, the depression era, your financial institutions and financial programs and policies played a great part in the winning of that battle against the depression, to help us come out of that depression. We were in real distress. Come on--it took the nation nine years to catch up to where the farmers had been in the 1920's. That's about it. Thev were havinq a touqh time on the farms all throuqh the twenties. Certainly--so many people in industry, unemployed people generally without jobs. It was an awful crucial situation--Itll tell you. I think the wa.v in which the war itself had interfered with economic devel- opments which you mentioned last time--like the development of a water pow- er policy which had started, I think, as ear1.v as T. R.... Yes. At least he'd mentioned it. I think he'd been an advocate of it. That there ought to be some national concern with rivers, navigable streams and so on, and in the absence of such policy, the building of dams had been

Page  121121 almost solely throuqh private member bills. That's the on1.v way that was open. The development of a policv--I mentioned Newton Baker, and I think Justice Frankfurter worked on this as an assistant in the War Department just to clarifv what the policy should become, but then banq--the war came. Yes, the war came. We went and developed with war in mind, and the farmers did the same thinq. TheV just qrew as much as the.y could, and come 1920 and 1922--you bet it did. - Yes, it toppled down. The tariff that came out, while it is a verv interestinq piece of leqisla- tion, didn't meet the problem. No, it didn't meet the problem. It didn't beqin to meet it. No, it did not even begin to meet the problem. The whole notion of financial matters--bankins and currencv, while there had been some chanqe in the Federal Reserve Svstem, most of the bankinq power was reqional. That's correct. Just like in Alabama, when vou thouqht about Muscle Shoals and its promise, it was looked upon as reqional. Well, it wasn't merely reqional. It had more to do with equal opportunity, open up the universe. Hoover made the

Page  122122 mistake of usinq that Dhrase--"eaual 0DDortunity"--but he meant the Ohio River, not the Alabama and Coosa. That ' s right. So you had to wait for a shift in power because interests, power interests, had qrown qreater than the states which had created them. That's true. TheV had created a kind of vacuum, and the question wasn't whether thev were qoinq to be requlated or not. The question was who was qoinq to do the requlatinq. You're right, and for what purpose. Yes, and for what purpose. They had friqhtful problems all throuqh the twenties about farminq, and it took the nation nine years to catch up with the farmers. Yes, just to catch up. October, 1929--bang! Things sure went, didn't they? It was spearinq balloons in every direction. Throughout the nation. It qave us time to think and re-examine--how much liberty could we stand, and all over aqain.

Page  123123 Well, now we have a proposal--1 happen to be the author of the amend- ment that authorized it--called the Tennessee-Tombigbee Canal. That would tie the Tennessee River in with the Tombigbee River which comes on down through Alabama and goes on out through the Port of Mobile. The whole idea there is that we'll tie in the Ohio region--they're talking about a canal now from Toronto down into Ohio and on down through Ohio, down through Ken- tucky, the Tennessee Valley, and then the Tombigbee to the Port of Mobile-- see. Great. It wou d be a mighty waterway through the great midland, the heartland of our country, so to speak. Sure. That could have been thouqht of in the twenties too. That could have been thought of in the twenties too, but it wasn't. It takes time. Well, I got an amendment put on the rivers and harbors bill authorizing it, and the engineers have got their report now ready to come on through. They're almost ready to start it. There was a canal built across Baldwin CountV. That's right. It goes across Baldwin County today--sure. It really runs sort of from Pensacola Bay across to Mobile Bay. It's a good canal and all that, but of course, it doesn't get into anything like this canal I'm talking about through the heartland of America. It's a start.

Page  124124 Yes, it's a start. That served interests in those daw. That's right. No reason why .you can't pro,ject it further. No reason at all why we can't project it further. Thev did quite a bit of--well, I looked at and read the survey which the enqineers made of the Alabama and the Coosa Rivers. That's in keepinq with the assertion of federal interest where rivers are naviqable. We'll have the Alabama River navigable within the next two or three years all the way from Montgomery right on down to Mobile. was the au hor of the amendment to the rivers and harbors act that author- ized that, the navigation on that river. We've got the Jones Bluff Dam, the Miller s Ferry Dam, and the Claiborne Dam all under construction now. As soon as that construction is completed--you know, you don't build a dam in six months time--we'll have that river open to navigation in the next two, or three years. By the way, I Look how it opens up the interior. Yes, sure--how it opens the interior, and new industry has already started coming there, see--already coming in. Have a fellow with an idea and fire in his bellv, and he's sot opportunitv. That's right--he's got opportunity, and industry today is interested

Page  125125 in waterways. One thing you get if you have any bulk cargoes--your trans- portation is cheaper by water, and they use that water for what they call industrial purposes--cooling engines and your machinery, all that stuff. Then also, when you build these dams, you get the electric power you need, the generators. It makes sense. You get your transportation--a waterway, your industrial water for industrial purposes, and so many of these plants today use lots of water in their operations, and then they get cheaper electricity from these dams. They make it work--just as an idea qets up off the paqe and walks. That's right--exactly right. It's excitinq to be part of that sort of thinq. It is indeed. I was the author of the development of the Alabama, and I was also the author of this Tennessee-Tombigbee River development. I had to put them all in in the Senate because the H.ouse didn't want to--well, I finally got the House to agree to it. There's one little experience that .you had--a fish hatchery act--at Brewton. It was vetoed by President Coolidqe--unimaqinative. That's right. It was an authoriz tion for p rmanent b iildinqs, st ck, and so , a local kind of industry which would provide in the area access to fish. It seems so simple.

Page  126126 It was simple when you think about it. Cal wasn't doing very much. I know he wasn't. He wasn't doing much--no, he wasn't doing much. If you've never had somethinq vetoed, it is at least an interestinq exper- ience. It sure is an interesting experience. if you've never had it before. The pocket veto--where he took the Joint Resolution on Muscle Shoals and put it in his pocket. Yes, it died in his pocket, and he didn't even give it a decent burial. No. - He didn't even give it a decent burial. The arqument at the time was on an Indian Act that he had also sub.iected to the pocket veto, the constitutional question was raised. Yes, I remember that. Evervbodv thouqht he'd be sustained, but it's a terrible thinq to have a man have that power to slip it in his pocket and forqet it. Well, you must remember another thing too--Congress then stayed in session a much shorter time. Furthermore, we died automatically every other year. We died automatically on the 4th of March, so he had one of those bills, and the 4th of March came, he'd just keep it in his pocket.

Page  127127 The alternate year we adjourned. his pocket. All he had to do was put that thing in He did. Sure--he did. It seems that anythinq that miqht conceivablv express the principle of neqa- tion he would exercise--unimaqinative. Look at the interests that were do- inq the same thinq. They had a field da,v. Look at the Miners' Marches in West Virqinia--Logan County. Remember Chapin, the sheriff? Oh yes. He was runninq the whole show for the coal companies. For the coal companies--sure. They didn't have enouqh sense to go beyond just takins somethinq out of the land to puttinq somethinq back. They left big scars--holes. Certainly--they didn't have any of that vision--no. You know what the Good Book says about vision--"Where there is no vision, the people perish." Isn't that right? When you look back at it and read about the Miners' Marchinq--I would have been marchinq alonq with them, or I would have been scheminq all over the lot with Colonel Worthinqton--hanqinq in there somehow.

Page  128128 You would have been right there with the old Colonel, wouldn't you? Yes, he had the sense of what it miqht become. Oh yes, he had that vision. Sure he did. He was a remarkable man, 1'11 tell you. He was indeed. This is get- ting off the subject somewhat, but a thing that has always interested me is what might have happened under Woodrow Wilson if we hadn't had this war come along. You see, Wilson came in as President on the 4th of March, 1913, and the darn war started in Europe in 1914, as I recall, about a year after Wil- son came in, or a little over a year, and the things that he might have brought to pass--well, when that war came on that put everything aside, even though we didn't get into the war until 1917. At that time we were so eco- nomically tied in--whether we were sending our cotton to Europe, or whatever else it was, we were so tied in, our economy and everything was so tied in with these western European nations--1 mean Britain, Germany, France, Italy, and these countries--that the war had an effect over here, you see. Wilson was a man of vision and of courage. And of leadership, and he had men with him--just like you said, Newton D. Baker. I told you this before, that President Wilson said that Newton D. Baker was the most valuable public servant he ever knew. He was a bril- liant man, and he had other men around him of vision and foresight. Garrison who replaced Newton Baker.

Page  129 129 That's right--Garrison was a man of that same type. He was a touqh lawyer. Yes, he was. But think of the time span b.etween Wilson and the needed shift in the cen- ter of power. People--well, they bore me to tears when they talk about the centralization of power in Washinqton, D. C They know nothinq about the twenties. That's right. The.y don't understand how the shift had to come--somethinq had to break the loq .jam. Something had to break the log jam--it sure did. This was a nation of people, not a nation of just interests, and opportun- ity had to be extended, so the shift in power had to wait until the thirties, and that a disaster. That came out of a disaster--sure. It jolted us thouqh. As I recall it, it was September, 1929, that we had the terrific crash in the stock market, and then we were in, as you said. There wasn't an.y wa.y for Hoover to erase that. He real1.y wasn't open to conviction on a new set of facts, but it was ver.y hard for him not to see the crash. The whole notion of lookinq around the corner! He-had to roll

Page  130130 up his sleeves, enqineer that he was and start monkevinq with the mechan- ism, but he wouldn't do it. He wouldn't touch it. He wouldn't do it. He floated the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, but it had a narrow purpose. That had a narrow purpose--yes. He did float that. You've got to give him credit for that. He did float that. I was talking to you about Henry Steagall, and Hoover suggested that just before we had a Christmas holiday--I've forgotten just what one it was--and Henry and I were going down on the train together for the holiday. He had to go through Montgom- ery to get to his town of Ozark, and he was talking about--well, Hoover had told him about the RFC--the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, and we were talking about that going down home on the train. I remember the con- versation so well. It was too late. Yes, it was too late then. You had that period of the absence of stronq leadership. Well, there it was--Harding, Coolidge, Hoover. Like a vast vacuum. That's right--like a vast vacuum. Then we qot movinq aqain.

Page  131131 Yes, then we got moving again. Then we got as President of the United States a man of action--Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Did you ever know him? No, sir--onlv from a distance. He was quite a man, It11 tell you--he was a man of action. He was open to suqqestion too. Certainly he was. And he certainly surrounded himself with people with suqqestions. I remember the day that George Norris and I went down to talk to him about what became TVA--the Tennessee Valley Authority. Norris and I had fought the battle to keep those power plants and, more particularly, Wil- son Dam from falling into the hands of private interests, but that day when we were sitting there talking, finally we came up with the idea of calling it the Tennessee Valley Authority, and we also got into the ques- tion of rural electrification--see, get this electricity out to the farm homes. That was the birth of REA. REA was born in 1933, and it was not two years afterwards, a little over two years afterwards, 1935, that we passed the REA Act, but it had its birth really there with the TVA. I remember that morning sitting there in the White House, and we got talk- ing not only about operating those plants for the benefit of agriculture and the farmer, but also getting this electricity out to the farmer. You see, back in the old days the farmer would buy his fertilizer and maybe only fourteen percent of what was in that sack was plant food. The other was inert matter. The farmer had to pay for the transportation, the cost

Page  132132 of all that damn stuff, and yet it meant nothing to his land, or to his crops o Riqht . Maybe only fourteen percent of it was plant food. In some cases it Idell, there wasn't anything to it, was even less than fourteen percent. and yet if that fertilizer was bought from some fertilizer company up North somewhere and came down to Alabama, the farmer had to pay all that freight on all that inert matter, haul it all, dispose of it all, and that stuff wasn't worth anything to him. ' That!s the interest that stood astride the introduction of new process. That's exactly right. They wanted their way. Yes, they wanted their way. Well, I suppose, if I had been sitting in their chair, I would have been arquinq for it too. Maybe so, if you were getting dividends on inert matter, you'd still be for inert matter. Isn't that right? Action is a function of interest. I kind of think I would have been on the other side of the fence with Colonel Worthinqton. I think a man of your vision--you would have been. The way the interests were trying to do it anyway would have put an added

Page  133133 burden in the nature of three and a half million dollars on the farmer-- the difference between 6% and 0%. That's exactly right--put that extra burden on the farmer. That's what vou were fiqhtinq about. Sure, that's what we were fighting about--exactly. I think a man of your vision would have been with Colonel Worthington. Don't you think it had to wait for a shift in power? Oh yes, you couldn't do anything as long as you had Cal Coolidge and Herbert Hoover in there. You had to keep it alive and finally you get Franklin Roosevelt in there, and then we really came forward and did busi- ness. Even in the twenties I would have thouqht that there was no absence of flood relief funds, and there were terrible floods in Alabama. That's right. That was an added arqument for some kind of control. We needed that control--needed it desperately, but--"Where there is no vision the people perish." You were able to qet an aqricultural experimental station. We did get that started. That's a root.

Page  134134 That was a beginning. It was good, but the fish hatchery had to wait. Look how you were able to stampede them with the Mediterranean Fl,y--remem- ber that? In Florida? That sort of jolted some action. It did indeed. Just like in the old days--the mosquito. Within the State of Alabama, I may be wronq about this, but the first piece of leqislation that created a state health orqanization, I think, is Ala- bama. - If not the first, it's one of the very first. We had one of the first State Departments of Health. Even within the state--local problems, like how to handle meat, meat in- spection--inspection laws, local ordinances had to come out. That's right--they had to come out. This is the period in which the.y were cominq out. Did you run into at all durinq this time.. .. You know, thinking about this lack of communication, 1'11 tell you what gives me concern--1 think we've been very unwary of this pollution problem both in the air and in our streams. You and I were talking the other day about this hepatitis--stream pollution. I don't know--1 think cigarette smoking undoubtedly has a lot to do with this tremendous increase in emphysema, just one example--but I don't know how much this air pollu- tion, all this darn carbon monoxide, nitrous oxide, and stuff coming out of these buses and automobiles and out of these factories, is causing.

Page  135You don't reallv know. No, you don't really know. It's there thouqh. It's there. What's all this smog about? They call it smog. is it? They don't really know. No, they don't really know. Or its effect. We should have started this thing twenty-five years ago. 135 Jhat I think .vou're riqht. It miqht have made a difference in the whole desiqn of plants. Exactly. An existinq facilitv is a hard thinq to pull back. Once you get that thing set, once you put that chimney in the corner.... "Switch it on!" Yes, switch it on. It's qot to pa.y for itself. I think that's one of our pressing problems today--this matter of pol- lution in the air and of our streams, don't you agree? No question about

Page  136136 that. Then there's another thing that gives me concern and that is this-- I think I talked to you about this the other day--we're using antibiotics, hormones to grow our chickens big. Instead of a broiler now, you buy them by the weight--see what I mean? You're contrastinq it with the chicken .you had as a bo?/. That's right--the chicken I had as a boy. Different taste. Different taste--different chicken. Chicken doesn't taste the same to me as it did when I was a boy. When I was a boy those chickens came off the farm. They didn't have any antibiotics, or anything of that kind. They were brought to town. The farmer came to our house, and my mother bought them and put them in a chicken coop in the back yard. We fed them until we needed them, and then when we needed them, the cook went out there and wrung their heads off, dipped them in hot water so as to pick them, but they were just as Mother Nature had provided them. They weren't in any way polluted by antibiotics, or anything of that kind. Nor were they stored frozen for several years. Hell, no--we never thought about putting them in storage for several years. That never occurred to you. You qot them riqht out of the yard. We got them right out of the yard. A walkinq chicken.

Page  137137 Yes--a walking chicken--a live, walking chicken, a chicken that Moth- er Nature had provided without any contamination by man--you see, and this thing of putting them in a refrigerator, freezing them, and leaving them there maybe for a month, or six weeks, or maybe longer than that, and no telling how long before you ate them--you never dreamed of doing that in that day and time. In the twenties, did you ever run into a public health fiqure by the name of Lumsden?--the llpriv.y builders", the drainaqe and ditchinq people. That name has a familiar sound, but I can't say that I ever had per- haps any real contact with them. Tom Parran was in Muscle Shoals in 1922. That's right. Franklin Roosevelt brought him down from New York to be Surgeon General, and by the way, we never had a better Surgeon General than Tom Parran. He was certainly good. I know. I remember him beinq at Muscle Shoals in 1922, but these public health, sanitation people chanqed the face of the map by draininq and ditch- ing--alonq with your Dad's interest in qettinq rid of those damn mosquitoes-- Paris Green, "Get that water to flow and not just stand there!" That's right--no stagnation to breed those damn mosquitoes. Did you ever know Tom Parran? Yes, sir. I don't think we've ever had a better Surgeon General. He was one of

Page  138138 the top men that we had there. He had a lot of vision. Oh yes, he had vision. Franklin Roosevelt brought him down. He's a man who wanted a biq broad hiqhwav on which to run too. That's right--he had that vision. No doubt had he stayed there as Surgeon General, we might have attacked this very problem of pollution that wetre talking about now because he had the vision to see this thing coming. You came in here this morning from Rockville, I don't know how much poi- son you got in your lungs. A couqh ever.v step of the wav. You can call me to testify any time. Why did you cough? Well, I'm not sure, but I didn't sense anythinq internal. It miqht have been external. I don't know, but by golly! You see, Senator, it's querilla warfare from day one, isn't it? That's right--that's what it is. Whether it's a thinq, a mosquito, an interest--you .just fisht them riqht down to the qround and open it up. Then you can do the job. We don't have any more--well, yellow fever is almost forgotten as far as our country is concerned. We've got a pro-

Page  139139 ject going on now down in the southern part of the country to make sure that we get rid of the--they changed the name. Steqomyia. Now they call it the Aedes aeqypti. changed the name. They used to call it the I don't know why they Lovely name in either case. Lovely name--but you take malaria. People used to have malaria in the old days! They sure did. What was that drug they used to take for malaria? Atabrine. There was some other, wasn't there? Sort of an antimalarial. Chloraquin, primaquin--durinq the war. I'm talking about a little bit before the war. Quinine. Quinine. That's a ruqqed drug. I remember before the war I was going down on the Gulf Coast right An uncle of mine had a little home down out from Panama City, Florida. there that he used just to go down to fish, a resort place, so to speak. He turned it over to me and my wife--we had two little kids then--and I

Page  140140 talked to my brother-in-law about going down there, and I didn't want to get that damn malaria, so he gave me some quinine. Damn that stuff made me so nervous that I couldn't sleep, so I threw that quinine away. Fortunately I didn't get that malaria, but the thing to do was to kill that damn mos- quito which welve done now. Sure have. Take typhoid fever--as I was telling you the other day, we don't have that any more. We've had a battle royal all over the United States in most of these towns, cities, and communities over the fluoridation of water for the preser- vation of the teeth, particularly the younger people, but I think that fi- nally we'll win, but there was a lot of opposition to that. Old ideas die hard. That's right. There was a lot of opposition to that fluoridation. I remember here right in the District--this has been some years ago; oh, gosh, this was way back, about 1950, I guess--1 was chairman of the Subcommittee of the Appropriations Committee that handled the appropriations for the Dis- trict of Columbia, and they came to me on this question about providing some money for fluoridation of the water here. There was opposition to it, but I took it up with the American Dental Association, and they've always been my good friends, by the way. They've had more vision than some other peo- ple. As I told you the other day, they thought it ought to be done, that

Page  141141 it was a good thing. Well, I put the money in there, and we got fluorida- tion here in the District. But I know that right there in Alabama we've had fights in different towns and communities about fluoridation. people have been outraged about it. Some Well, I quess vou never thouqht that part of the .job was beinq involved in education--brinq them the messaqe. Bring them the message. That's about all .you can do. That's about all you can do--tell the story. There's another thinq. You know about barnyards. Yes. You toss a little corn in the barn,yard and feathers fly. That's right. That's the illustration. And fluoridation was bound to interest some and disinterest others. "Why should that government be there contaminating our water!" Whether the,y understand it or not, it finds its level sooner or later. Sooner or later it finds its level. You agree with me about this pollution, don't you? Oh, sure. I think twenty-five years is probab1.y a conservative estimate.

Page  142142 We ought to have started long ago. The truth is that we ought to have started--really should have started when Selden--I believe he made the first automobile, didn't he--Selden? We ought to have started when he brought out the first automobile-- you see. I think that if Watt, who developed the steam enqine, had also been a medi- cal man, it miqht have been a qood time to develop it riqht then and there. It might have been a good time then because that's really--that steam engine, when we got that, that's when we really moved into this Industrial Revolution. You know, you're too young to remember, but I remember when some of our automobiles were steam operated. They didn't last too long. It sort of passed off. Don't you know about Phillips 66, the gas "that won the West"? Haven't you seen that on television? Phillips 66, the "Gas that won the West." It wasn't gas. It was guts, intestina fortitude and gun powder that won the West. The Indians had arrows, and we had guns and gun powder, is that right? That was the distinction. That was the distinction. I think I'd rather have a good rifle and gun powder than a bow and arrow, wouldn't you? Oh, yes. Much rather, but more than anything else it was intestinal fortitude.

Page  143143 Am I right? When it comes down to a question of we or they, it's we who are qoinq to survive. That's right. Think about Watt--he's the qreatest law qiver of all times. the very instruments to which society had to ad.iust. He created Isn't that right--that's certainly true. If he'd had a medical backqround of some kind .... But he didn't have that, did he. No, we had to wait to catch up to him. Enqland where the,y've had pollution for a lonq time. Look at the mill towns in New A long time. Riqht. we'll handle it. Well, it's identified as a problem. We'll kick it around, and But the trouble is--how long is it going to take? How much are we going to suffer before we do? That's an unanswerable question. I told you the other day--not to keep on repeating--that I had typhoid fever and my wife had typhoid fever, and her father died from typhoid fever. We don't have any typhoid fever today. The average student who goes through

Page  144144 medical school today doesn't see or hear of typhoid fever. We'll meet this kind of threat, and at the same time we'll develop new sources of power, and we'll have to continual1.v meet this. It is not a finished thins ever. We continue to move forward and as you move forward, we have problems-- different movements bring problems. Sure they do. I think we are a little late in cominq to air and water. When I said twenty-five years--I'm really conservative--we ought to have started when Selden--or you say, when Watt--go back beyond Selden to Watt. That's right. That's what we should have done, by golly, but we didn't have the vision, or the foresight to do it. Folks were thinking in terms of making money out of this new invention and not in terms of pro- tecting people. They wanted to make money out of it. That's when the qreat development of cities beqan, and look at them--they were horrible places. That's right. Questions of sanitation--unplanned, unthouqht out thinqs. Well, we can meet it. It never occurs to me that we can't. We can do the job, but we've got to have the will and the determina- tion to do the job. Isn't that right? Words aren't self-activatinq. You've qot to find somebody with fire in his belly.

Page  145145 That's right. Youlve got to get you a Colonel Worthington. A Colonel Worthinqton and turn him loose. Yes--turn him loose. Senator, I'm qoinq to qo back up into the papers for a while, and I wonder if I could see you aqain on Thursday. Would that be possible? I think so. I never know exactly when I might have some committee meeting called. Could you check with my office? Yes, let me call Don. 1'11 set it down for Thursday at 10:30. You set it down for Thursday at 10:30, but you give Don a call, will you? Good. - Call him sometime--say Wednesday afternoon. Would that be all right? Sure. - 1'11 try to work it out, but sometimes I have--well I don't know. I might have an important meeting on the Appropriations Committee where I had to be there--you see, have to get some money for one of the waterways wetre talking about. Speaking of heart operations there was a great Viennese surgeon who said, "Any man that attempts it will lose the respect of the profession." You wonder what it is that will make a man say somethinq like that.

Page  146146 He was one of the great surgeons there in Vienna of his day. He was no.. . . That's a red flaq--ItStop!tr trStop!tl--don't try. Hell, don't stop! Well, do you know who was the most bitter antagonist that Joseph Lister had with his asepsis and antisep- sis. I told you the other day--James Y. Simpson. He had discovered chlo- roform as an anesthesia and no doubt had been very much acclaimed. He didn't want anybody else to be acclaimed, I guess. Is that about right? Riqht. Is that about right? It tells a lot, doesn't it. Damn if it don't! It explains everythinq. It explains everything. Old human nature is the same. 1'11 say, but you know, sooner or later, the new comes poundinq up right throuqh the old. Yes, it makes its way through. You can't sit and put the lid on it. Sure not. Because the,y*ll blast .you riqht throuqh the wall. It's qoinq to come.

Page  147147 They surely will. It's a matter of timinq and the accidents that happen and the whole world is suddenly a different place--like that. That's right. Imaqine somebody sayinq, "He will lose the respect of the profession." Think of that! He was no fool. No. What would our friend Mike DeBakey think of that today? Well--you know, I would think of him as simplv runninq and thumbinq his nose every step of the way. I guess so. It would never occur to him--never occur to him. Just think of what people had in the old days compared to what they have today, but they didn't have all this damn pollution. They didn't come to town coughing all the way from Rockville. And I was inside. You were inside, but you had your windows up. We'll lick it. Yes, we'll lick it.

Page  148148 Senate Office Buildinq, Thursday, February 9, 1967. 1930-1931--there was a chanqe of power, and you move across the aisle in the House of Representatives. That's right. The election was in 1930, and we moved over in 1931-- that's right. A little bit different thinkinq than you had been accustomed to prior to 1930-1931. Well, 1'11 say this--up to 1931, of course, the Republicans had been in control, and they had the chairmanships. They had had a Republican Ad- ministration down here too, and they had pretty much set the pace, but then in 1931, we came into power, got the chairmanships of the committees, had a majority in the House and, as I recall, a majority in the Senate, so that changed the situation some--sure did. You could press a bit. Yes, we could press a bit. We elected John N. Garner our Speaker. There's a right interesting thing in that connection. Nick Longworth had been Speaker of the House. He married Alice Roosevelt Longworth. Nick and Jack Garner were good friends, and they teased one another a good bit about who was going to have the Speaker's limousine and chauffeur, and in that day and time we didn't have as many limousines and chauffeurs around as we do today--not by a jug full--and they kidded one another a good deal, and dog- gone it, as I remember, the Democrats won, so that meant that John Garner

Page  149149 got the limousine and chauffeur. He became Speaker of the House, but poor old Nick died in the meantime. When I first came to Washington Nick was driving his own car, and what do you suppose it was? It was an electric car. He lived over here on Massachusetts Avenue where Alice, his wife, still lives. It was right down the street from where I lived at 2100 Massachusetts Avenue, and I could see him going in there in his electrical car. He was driving his own electrical car. The thing is now--we left that electrical car and came into the gas car, as you and I know, and it looks like wetre going back to that electrical car on account of all this air pollution that we have today. Did you see that presentation that came on at 10:00--as I recall on channel 9--on Monday night on air pollution? Right interesting thing, wasn't it? Staqqerinq! Well, that afternoon I had Secretary Gardner, Bill Stewart, the Sur- geon General, and Wilbur J. Cohen, the Under Secretary of HEW, Phil Lee, the Assistant Secretary for Health and Medical Affairs, and I told them that I thought we were about thirty, or thirty-five years behind on this air pollution. We should have started to work on air pollution way back when Selden gave us the first automobile--see, and even when they first started these big industries with these smoke stacks--you saw those smoke stacks in that presentation? Terrible.

Page  150150 They've gone on all these years, and we haven't done anything about them. they were run by electricity, and we brought all these darn buses here. Here a few years ago we made them abolish the street car lines, and I told .you last time that we should have started all this when Watt in- vented the damn enqine. That's exactly right--you told me that was the time, when Watt made that engine. That's what you told me--you sure did. Well, Senator, when you have the substance of power, committee chairman- ships, and so on, you still need that House across the road, don't .you? Yes, you still need it--to pass legislation, you have to pass it through the House and the Senate, and then it has to be signed by the President. It was a little hard to speak with him--President Hoover. No talk. Well, it was worse than no talk--it was no action. About the only thing that he did that I can recall--he may have done other things, but the thing that I recall now, and there may be other things that I should recall, is that he did set up the RFC, Reconstruction Finance Corporation. No doubt a lot of big business needed that money. It was too late--he hadn't really thouqht about the problem. It was too late. He was still writinq books on a kind of individualism that had a1read.y

Page  151151 passed. That's right. Times had changed. Do you remember the situation in Washinston durinq the bonus marches-- the tension that was created? This was real. It really was. The boys were down here in the south east section. Yes--it was tense. Darn risht. A & P for food? There wasn't anybody that was qoinq to stop them. It was touqh. The times needed some kind of action. Or the lonqshoremen in New York City who were simply invadinq Yes, it needed some kind of action. You know, what you said to me Monday morning no doubt inspired me to say what I did Monday afternoon to Secretary Gardner, Under Secretary Cohen, Bill Stewart, the Surgeon General, and Phil Lee, the Assistant Secretary. No doubt what you said that morning must have inspired me to say what I said to them. Mavbe we'll set movinq. We hope so. When vou take over as a Representative the House MiLtary Affairs Committee, a bill comes out on Muscle Shoals--it wasn't a very qood bill. No. But it does show how the interests, which had existed in the twenties,

Page  152152 still had enormous power to exercise and were pressinq like mad. Still pressing. Oh, terriblv. Still pressing. That was nothing comparable to the bill we passed in 1933, but that was the best we could get, and then you will recall that President Hoover vetoed it. A man named Calvin Coolidge had killed the other one. I understand that when vou have to neqotiate with a parade, it's the best you can obtain. floor. Even in 1933, you practically rewrote the bill on the Yes, we had to make some changes to get by--sure did. We had to make some changes to get it by. We had troubles--you had your problems. Sure did have your problems. You had to defend the faith and fiqht them off. That's right. The pressure became enormous. Well, 1'11 tell you in that day and time your power companies--oh, boy, they were powerful! They had qrown larqer than the states which had created them. That's right, and they were really powerful. Don't forget that--they

Page  153153 were really powerful. Like fleas they were ready to take off one doqts back and jump on another, and ride. They were certainly powerful. Out of the conference that takes place--1 think the Senate had passed the Norris Bill and you had been successful on the floor of the House and vir- tual1.y rewrote the bill that came out of the House Military Affairs Com- mittee, but out of the conference it is the House Bill that comes. Then you have authorization and no funds, and what a terrible wrestlinq match that was. We had to go and get some money. You see, you can build an automo- bile, but if you don't have some gas to put in the tank and some oil in the engine, you can't operate it. Forqet it! You've got to have that money. The power companies were still stronq enouqh to forestall a direct appro- priation, so that some means had to be found to beqin construction of a dam, I think, on the Alabama and the Tennessee Rivers with WPA funds ini- tially. Or was this prior to WPA? I think it was WPA, but we got started. The main thing was to get started, and we got started. Oh, sure, but in order to sort of clear the air the Senate had an enor-

Page  154154 mously fruitful investiqation of the power companies. That's right. Not only that, but the banks in Penns,ylvania--the Pecora Committee. The,v were lookinq at what the interests had done. You're thinking about the investigation carried on largely under the chairmanship of Walsh of Montana and the work he did--yes. He put the fire where the holes were. That's right--he sure did. It sort of chanqed the atmosphere. It did. The power companies were then ready, in effect, to turn over to the TVA the area. They were more amenable after that investigation--that's right. That investigation had a very wholesome effect--there's no doubt about that. It did indeed. It shows, I think, the lenqth of time it takes to get an idea to really latch on and qrow and how you try to qet as much as you can, but this is really a new idea; namely, the investment a nation can make in its own future. That's certainly true.

Page  155155 Do you remember the arqument in the Senate over--is it the Johnsonville Steam Plant? Yes, I remember that. I read that Vesterday--a marvelous arqument. They tried to make the point that under the law that steam plant was not authorized, that you couldn't build that Johnsonville Steam Plant. The thouqht was that .vou couldn't use the appropriation mechanism to create.... That steam plant. Because it was substantive. That s right. And they claimed that the law--well, as amended, the law indicated that the TVA could not build steam plants throuqh the issuance of bonds, not that they couldnit build steam plants. Just throuqh the issuance of bonds. They didn't read the law ver,y well, but it was a qood arqument. That Johnsonville Steam Plant was the first steam plant that was built after TVA came into being, and we had quite a scrap on that--sure did. That was a battle--a battle royal. Well, you know, you read it now--itts one dimension. You can't hear the heat. - I understand.

Page  156156 I thouqht it was a qood arqument, and both .you and Senator Sparkman indi- cated that they, the opposition, hadn't real1.v read the bill as amended, but you know, the theory of it was that hydroelectric power b.v itself had to be firmed up by a steam plant in the event that there was some breakdown somewhere for cities, villaqes. Look at what was at stake--the Rural Elec- trification was beqinninq to qrow. Sure--the whole thing was at stake, as you say. Thev're still fiqhtinq it. Yes, still fighting it, by golly. I can understand, I think Senator McKeller's objection--somethins was hap- peninq in his state that really went beyond his state. That's right. And while he was verv much interested in his state, it was real1.v something that was reqional. He was thinking of his state. I understand. He made it pretty touqh. He was thinking of his state. He didn't know that Georqia, North Carolina, Alabama, Kentucky, and Tennes- see were all involved. All in the same.

Page  157157 This process of creatinq an aqenc.v like the TVA was a new wrinkle. Oh,yes--that was a new wrinkle. Later on in 1938, or so, you float the Inland Waterwa.ys Corporation which is aqain a wa.v in which people can invest in their own future. That's correct. Must have been qreat times. They were great times--they sure were. They gave us all plenty to do. They were great times, no doubt about that. We were all busy--busy. I think the administration was readv to qet thinqs movinq. Oh yes, President Roosevelt was. No doubt about that. He was ready. And he had to rely on spade work that had been done b.y Colonel Worthinqton and others. That's exactly right. The idea was alive. It .just had to be moved. Yes, it had to be moved. The baby had to be delivered. Riqht, but when you think 1923 to 1933--ten years. Ten years of time there. Then you qet two more years before you can siphon off some funds to start the dams with--,you know. Then the whole notion--they had to attack it be-

Page  158158 cause they understood it--it had to amortize itself in f0rt.y years. The power companies weren't doinq that. No, they weren't doing that at all. You couldn't read the papers and find that out. That's right. That's correct. The burden was really on the TVA to demonstrate--to enter the market, come alive, and prove itself. There was a blanket placed on understandinq that throuqhout the nation. I would think that this kind of stor.y, 1923 to 1933, teaches one a fantastic measure of patience, doesn't it? You have to keep after it. But to stoke that fire for ten years! That's what we had to do--you see, keep stoking that fire, keep waging that battle. Sure. When the administration chanqed there was such an assault upon the interests that had really been discredited because we were flat on our backs-you know, but they were beinq hit from so many sides sudden1.y. The thing had changed. The bankinq, currency, investment picture--even the tax structure in 1934, was beinq revised, so it was all of a piece--and there are just so man.y ropes you can skip. You can't skip them all. You cannot.

Page  159159 How did President Roosevelt exercise his power in this sort of thinq--did he support the effort? Oh yes, he supported it--sure he did, and he wanted to move forward with these things, and he certainly wanted to move out of that terrible de- pression we were in. He knew these things were not only good per se, in and of themselves, but they would also help to move us out of that depres- sion. He really went for the nation's investment in its own future, but there were some people in his own cabinet that didn't qo for that. I think that's so--they didn't see it. The Attorney General, for example, a qood man, Cumminqs, and I think Mor- genthau was a little bit leery about it. I think he was a bit leery--well. He had a manqer theory; that you could lie down in the same bed with the power trust--you know better than that. You couldn't do that. You had to remake the bed and then invite them. You saw that he died the other day. I hadn't seen him in a long time. I think his father came over here as an emigrant and achieved great success there in New York, financial success and other success too. One of the 1uck.y ones.

Page  160160 I guess so. I quess it's ninet.v percent chance. Maybe so--1 don't know. I would think so. You have to be at the r-qht place at the riqht time when all the factors are qoing. You remind me--have I given you that quotation from Bob Ingersoll about Napoleon? He said, ,,I saw him upon the frightful field on Waterloo where chance and fate combined to wreck the fortunes of their former king." You see, Napoleon had won every battle he'd ever fought until Waterloo, but what happened there at Waterloo, that caused him to lose those battles-- two things he couldn't control. They had a very heavy rain the night before, and when his cavalry went charging, as they had so often done, against the enemy, they had to go over this roadway, and due to that heavy rain that roadway had sunken and become a ditch, so to speak, so the cavalry instead of hitting the enemy piled up on one another in that roadway. He couldn't control that rain. The other thing was that one of his generals was forced to come up and help with his troops, but he didn't arrive. Someone did ar- rive to help Wellington--see. It came up heads that time. It came up heads that time. Those two things Napoleon couldn't control. He couldn't control that rain, that weather, the fact that that sunken road there presented that

Page  161161 impossible situation for his cavalry--that they charged into a ditch in- stead of going over and hitting the enemy. Then support never did get there, doggone it, so as old Bob said, "Chance and fate combined to wreck the fortunes of their former king.'I Isn't that pretty well expressed? Ver,y well. Did .you hear him speak? He was before my day, but I had read that. Bob Ingersoll was before my day. You mentioned a fellow some time back that I would have liked to have heard. - Who's that? Wendell Philips. I never heard him, but I read some of his things. How helpful was radio in the ear1.y thirties? Radio? Did it play anV role at all? I don't think by that time-it's a little hard. That's been thirty- seven years ago welre talking about. I don't think it played too much part at that time, not by then. I don't think at that time it played too much part. You still had to qet out on that corner.

Page  162162 Get out on the corner--right, get out on the hustings, as the expres- sion goes. Radio didn't play too much of a part at that time. Another thing too, these farm people had to get this electricity to have that ra- dio. The radio doesn't run by itself. You have to have that electricity to get that radio--see what I mean? They were still using these old kero- sene lamps. They didn't have any radio. They didn't have any juice to run that radio. I was ,just wonderinq--it may well be that the reason we misunderstand the early thirties from the point of view of the press is because there was no corrective. There was, as you say, no corrective--nothing there to challenge them, nothing there to present the other side of the picture, so to speak. Riqht, and I think it's fair to say that eiqht.y, or ninet.y percent of it was anti-administration, or if that not, anti-President Roosevelt. I think that was undoubtedly true. But the.y couldn't afford not to carr.y some of the thinqs he said, even thouqh they butchered them in translation. That's right--butchered them in translation, and later on in the later years of his administration, he did use that radio very effectively--his fireside chats. He was very effective in his later years. This was after 1936 and 1937. Yes, moving on in there.

Page  163163 But even when you passed the leqislation that .you passed in the first hun- dred days--remember?--like the Guffey Coal Act. That was a friqhtful sit- uation. Sure was. You never knew old Joe, did you? No, I didn't. He's been dead now some little time. He left Congress out of the Sen- ate a good while ago, a good long time ago, but after he left Congress, he continued to live here. He first had a lovely home on what we know as Fen- ton Place, and then he moved into an apartment out on Connecticut. The last time I saw him was one Sunday--I went out there and had dinner with him-- my wife and I did. He was living there then with his sister--Emma Guffey Miller, who by the way is quite a figure in Democratic politics in the State of Pennsylvania. She was quite a girl, 1'11 tell you. She's pretty old, but she's still living, and she was quite a figure. But, .you know, even thouqh .vou meet that kind of problem with leqislation, it's nice to see our constitutional system work. That's right. It qoes into the courts, and they fiqht it every step of the way. I quess the Court overturned three or four pieces of leqislation, one riqht after the other that were riqht at the heart of the emerqency enactments. As I recall, they did. Well meaninq men, but not open to conviction as to what 1935 really looked

Page  164164 like. Mavbe the haste made for less tiqht leqislation than .you miqht have wanted to have, so the.y could find reasoned qrounds, but the effect wasn't the wordinq. It was to throw the whole proqram out. It's qreat--well, our full system comes into p1a.y on1.y when we violate it. That's right--that's certainly true. It ' s marvelous. That's certainly true. Like the Itsick chicken" case--what a horrible case to defend! We were out- fumbled on that. Me surely were. The man who arqued that case for the Schechter Poultry Company knew chick- ens backwards and forwards. That was certainly true. That made all the difference. It made all the difference--it sure did. But there was haste, and there was a sense of urqency throuqhout the land. There was a sense of urgency. People were in distress. People were in need. Not on1.y that, but look at the mortqaqe riots out in the midwest. Sure--up she went.

Page  165165 Damn riqht, so that the normal business interests couldn't meet this an.y- way. The.y just couldn't do it. Had the.y been wise, they miqht not have needed to in the first place, but they didn't see it. They didn't see it. No, they did not. When a vacuum is created somethinq new emerqes out of the devastation. It sure does. Something comes up, as you say, when that vacuum is created. You can look on the worst devastation and find beauty, and it comes up under the Aqricultural Adjustment Act. That's right. Or the Soil Conservation Act, or the Soil Surve.v--the application of tech- noloqy and science in the field. Did you read Sunday's New York Times? Yes. - Did you see those pictures in there of the theaters, colonades, and things that the Romans had built? it! Remarkable! You and I go to Rome and go there to see what they've done there--well, that's not too surprising, but think of it--way down there in Africa, and they didn't have any railroad trains, or anything like that in that day and time. They didn't have any steam boats. Isn't it remarkable when you think about No--just barqes and human labor.

Page  166166 That's right. I've always thought that Acropolis is just about as beautiful a place as there is in the world. Isn't it? Don't you think that's the most beautiful place in the world? It's supposed to be in ruins now. The main temple is, but even at that, still it's beautiful--beautiful. Were you ever at that Roman city in Africa? I think I asked you that the other day. The Romans built quite a place there. TheV had the know how. They had the know how--they sure did. They had the enqineers, they knew what they wanted, and the.y had the power to create. They brought a lot of that marble, a lot of that stone, all down the Nile River across the Mediterranean, across over there to this city--re- markable ! The.y didn't face much opposition. Didn't they conquer the then known world pretty well? We weren't in the picture at that time. We just had a few Indians over here then. Take Senator McKeller in 1911, who introduced the possibility of a dam at Muscle Shoals--1911 to 1935 aqainst all kinds of opposition, but look at it today, look how it chanqed the whole face of that area.

Page  167167 It changed the whole face, the whole economy. You know somethinq else--I don't think anywhere alonq that line anyone could have stepped in and quickened it. It had to be fouqht out the way it was fouqht out. It had to be fought out just like it was--just as it was. It had to be a long, slow, tedious battle, and that's exactly what it was. Colonel Worthinqton referred to it as Ita case of measles that had to run its course .I1 Wasn't that a pretty good expression? In that day and time we didn't have any vaccine for measles. No, we did not. Had to run its course. There's really no showinq anywhere alonq the line that it was qoinq to be born--it was up for qrabs every step of the way. That's right--all the way. But it's know, to be seized b.y an idea and then suddenly to have the power to make it walk. I don't hear any ob.jection to it today. No--no objection to it today. People tend to applaud. Most of them do. The old battle is pretty well ended now. Well, think of it--1 guess our small pox vaccine was about the first vaccine we had, wasn't it? Think what we've done since then. We had practically no polio at all in this country last year. Measles is way down, and I'll make

Page  168168 a prediction that in a very short time we will have our vaccine for rubella, German measles. We just got that vaccine for the small pox--comparatively speaking--just a few years ago compared to the long history of mankind. that right? Is If there is anv distinction between the two--it's one thinq to create a piece of equipment like a h.vdroelectric center. touch and feel and see, but when you're dealinq with somethinq that is alive itself and can fiqht vou, or absorb your attempts to poison it, di- gest it, and come out with a new resistant form--that's a steadv battle. That's somethinq vou can That's a steady battle all the way along. It's a never endinq thinq. Yes, it's a never ending thing. You ought to go down there and take a trip through the TVA. I have. That's the most inspirinq thinq imaqinable. Isn't that inspiring to go down there and see it? When were you there? Three vears aqo. Interesting, wasn't it? Interes tinq! Sure and challenging. And qreen--qrowinq, alive, prosperous, and imaqinative.

Page  169That's certainly true. New industries all the time. More coming there all the while. That was the open up opport Sure--that's what you do. 169 inity . An investment in our own future. It makes a biq difference. It makes a tremendous difference. To x, .Y, and z down there--I'11 say it does. Like projectinq them into the world for the first time. That's right--that's the story. It's a sky scalinq idea--it excites me even now to think about it. It excites you even now, doesn't it. It sure does. How could it have been so misunderstood! And most bitterly opposed! I don't understand it--oh, I do--dividends that .you count, thinqs that are real1.y unimportant in the last analysis--an unwillinqness to share, really, but a qreat idea. It chanqed the face of that whole area. It has indeed--oh, my, I should say. It's a different area entirely now. Not only changed the area, but think of what it has done to the

Page  170170 nation. As I told you the other day, one reason we have the George C. Mar- shall Space Center at Huntsville is because of the TVA power. When we were fighting to get that space center down there one of the strongest arguments we had was that TVA power. You can't build a space center today without power. You've got to have power. The strongest argument we had was power. I think the survey that the enqineers made of the power on the river was conservative. It was conservative--there's no doubt about that, and then of course they weren't thinking about augmenting that power with steam plants and that kind of thing. You throw that in. Yes, you throw that in. Look at the power problem we had recent1.v--the failure. That whole concept of firminq hydroelectric power--not just hydroelectric, but more. Of course the demand.... You're speaking of that power failure up in New York, the north east. Canada. It went all the way to Canada--it did indeed, and it got to be pretty serious, a pretty serious thing, 1'11 tell you. Senator Norris's notion of a whole qrid network for the whole of North America.

Page  171171 You see, he'd made that visit to Canada, saw how that thing tied in there. There was nothinq small, or narrow, or niqqardly about his thinkinq. No, it was big. We haven't reached it yet. We haven't reached it yet--we're still working on it. And meanwhile, while you chanqe one variable, a lot of other ones you did- n't anticipate crop up--a new crop, new wa.ys of doinq thinqs, new indus- trial desiqns, a more prosperous and wholesome future. It's no lonqer new. That's certainly true.

Page  172172 Senate Office Buildinq, Friday, April 7, 1967. We haven't used the tape recorder for a while, and it looks a little lame. Last time when we talked, we were talkinq real1.v about a qovernment corpo- ration in TVA, so that the people could invest in their own future--a re- qional thins. This was a kind of warfare in the twenties between interests that had a stranqle hold and wanted to maintain it and the desire on the part of other people to qet a reqion to qrow better by enrichinq its possi- bilities, and TVA was thouqht to be a means whereby this could be done. The concept is new--the federal qovernment floatinq a corporation so that the people in a reqion could have a chance, or qreater opportunity. I don't know the oriqin of that idea. I don't know that it is important, but do vou have any information on how that idea, the use of a qovernment corporation supported by qovernment funds to enrich opportunity in a reqion, emerqed? Well, you see, the TVA really had its genesis in the National Defense Act of 1916. more towards our country, so they passed that act to strengthen and build up our defense, and in that act they put Section 124 which authorized the President of the United States to construct the nitrate plants. Then they said that those nitrate plants should be used for the defense of our coun- try in time of war and used for agriculture in time of peace. You see, you have to realize this--back in the old days really before TVA, if you bought a sack of fertilizer, only twelve or fourteen percent of the matter in that sack was any good from the standpoint of plant food. The great majority of that matter was inert, so to speak. You had to pay for the handling, haul- ing, and the application of the fertilizer on your land, and only maybe The Congress at that time saw the war clouds rolling more and

Page  173173 twelve, or fourteen percent of it was helpful so far as your crop, or your land was concerned, so it was out of that Section 124 that TVA had its be- ginning. At the time the war ended, we built two nitrate plants there--one using the Haber process and the other using the cyanamid process, and they were really just beginning to turn out this nitrogen when we got our victory. Then the question came up--what should we do. We had our steam plant that we built there to help to operate the plants, generate the power. We also had a dam unfinished--the Wilson Dam, named for President Woodrow Wil- son. Well, frankly when Mr. Harding, Mr. Coolidge, and those people came in, they didn't want to do anything; in fact, it was some several years that that Wilson Dam lay unfinished. I remember the first time I saw it. They only had a piece of a dam there, and of course a piece of a dam is no good at all. You've got to have the dam all the way through--dam up the fall of the water to get the power, and we finally got the dam completed, but then nothing was done about the plants. It was only when Franklin Roosevelt came in that we set down with him-- I remember Senator George Norris and I going down to the White House to see him and talk this matter over and the idea was that we could not only use those plants for the benefit of agriculture, benefit of the farmer, but we could build dams on that river to generate power for the development of that area there, and out of that came the act that became law when the President signed it on May 18, 1933, creating the Tennessee Valley Authority. We'd take that Tennessee Valley, that whole waterway, and develop it with the idea of fertilizer for the farmer for plant life, the idea of rural electri- fication for the farm home. At that time when you drove out in the country, you saw a few old kerosene lamps, and that was all. Really, what we know

Page  174174 as REA had its birth there in TVA. The TVA Act was passed in 1933, and in 1935, was passed the REA Act, and now today, what is it--about ninety-eight percent of the farms in the country have rural electricity. Then too, the idea was that we would generate electricity and invite industry and manufac- turing plants, and many of them have come into the Tennessee Valley. Fact of the business is that we have the great George C. Marshall Space Center at Huntsville, Alabama today. It had its genesis in a chemi- cal warfare plant that we put there during World War 11. When I went to see General Porter, who was Chief of the Chemical Warfare Service, urging him to put the plant there at Huntsville, Alabama, one of the best arguments I had was that we could get this relatively cheap cost electric power from the TVA, and we thought we might have to use gas. We didn't want to use gas in that war, but if the Germans started using gas, we were going to be ready to gas them--don't you see, so we put this big chemical warfare plant right there at Huntsville, and that was the beginning of what is now the George C. Marshall Space Center. We didn't have to use that very much during the war. They didn't resort to gas much, so we didn't, but we were ready for them. Then the question came--llWell, we've got this big plant, this great in- stallation here, all this money expended, what shall we do?" We began to think then in terms of space, rockets, missiles--see. "All right. We'll use that then for a space center," and we named it after, for me, one of the greatest men I've ever known, George C. Marshall. He was Chief of Staff during World War 11, as you know, Chief of Staff of the Ar- my, and a very remarkable man to me. This particular approach had its orientation for defense. P

Page  175175 Oh yes--it started as defense--the act of 1916. The choice in terms of the time, the twenties, was to scuttle, or preserve. Scuttle, or do what we did with a lot of surplus property after World War 11--we gave it away, or sold it. Of course, the power interests would have been glad to grab the power facilities there, not have any TVA, not have any competition, not have any other source of power. You'd have to go to them to get your power, but it had its beginning really in Section 124 of the Defense Act of 1916, to produce that nitrogen for gun powder, explosives in time of war and for the production of plant life in time of peace. When the thirties came alonq the scene had shifted. Me were on our backs economically. We were. The depression was on us. The very power interests were also on their backs. Well, they were having their problems. Everybody was having their problems then--sure. I was thinkinq that part of the problems that emerqed certain1.v out of the South and the Midwest, the farm areas, qo back to the Granqer Movement, the Populist Revolt, and almost entire1.v a qood bit of their anti views are di- rected aqainst what was referred to as "Wall Street"--the banking facilities. Yes, but you have to realize this. I think, and I want to speak fair- ly, fair to everybody--what you speak of as "Wall Street" interests, and

Page  176176 what Franklin Roosevelt called "Economic Royalists", they did pretty much dominate and control the Republican Party, and, as you know, with few ex- ceptions, the Republican Party pretty well ran the show from the time of the Civil War down to the Franklin Roosevelt era. We did have the Woodrow Wilson era in there, but the World War I was already going on in Europe, and it had a tremendous effect on us and our economy, and many things, no doubt Wilson would have done, he couldn't do because of this whole world economic upset due to that war going on. To be frank with you about it, and I say this, I hope, in all fairness, when the Civil War was over with the Wall Street crowd, so to speak--they were thinking in terms of their own interests which was a natural thing, and the South was more or less destitute due to the war, and,they proceeded then to treat the South 1argel.y as a conquered territory illustrated by their freight rate discriminations. I remember--in the forties I was made chairman of a sub-committee of the Interstate Commerce Committee, and I made a study of these freight rate discriminations. I found that the low- est discrimination was thirty-seven percent. In other words, if a plant in Birmingham, Alabama, manufactured a product and shipped it, say, to some plant in the Midwest, or Indiana, or Illinois, and another plant in New Jersey, or Delaware, the same distance exactly, the same mileage, shipped the product to this place in Ohio, or Indiana, or Illinois, the freight from Birmingham to its destination was thirty-seven percent higher than it would be from that plant in New Jersey, or Delaware, or somewhere there in the East. We had this freight rate discrimination. I understand that case, Georqia v. Pennsylvania Railroad.

Page  177177 That's right--you understand that case. It was inequitable. Yes. Then there was another thing too that worked very much against us, and that was that the Wall Street crowd loaned money to the northern and eastern industries and manufacturing plants at a much lower rate than they did a plant down in the South, and that interest rate had a lot to do with the cost of production of your goods. There was another thing that worked against us. Whereas we had awful- ly fine waterways just like this Tennessee River there, the Coosa, Alabama Rivers in Alabama, the Chattahoochee River, the dividing line between Geor- gia and Alabama, we couldn't get these rivers developed. They developed the Ohio River. Oh yes. They got that cheap waterway. That adds much from the standpoint of your transportation, so with your relatively low interest rates in the North compared to the high interest rates in the South, these awful freight rate discriminations against the South, the development of waterways in the North and the failure to develop waterways in the South--you can see what we were up against down there. Standinq still. That's exactly right. There is a shift in the power base--maybe it stems from the ear1.v thirties; that is Wall Street, the bank holidays, the old law firms with their corpo-

Page  178178 rate reorqanizations of railroads--vou know, the terrible drain, but thev didn't understand that their limited vision had put them in the box in which they were in and, deeper than that, the.y overlooked the income tax case in 1895. - I think that's true--undoubtedly true. So power shifted--the person who collected, controlled. That's right. And Marshall's dictum "the power to tax being the power to destroy" is al- tered to mean the power to tax is the power to rebuild. That's right. You're certainly right. This, to me, is the Populist feelinq, the Granqer Movement feelinq, the rural feelinq qenerally, but it now has the substance whereb.y it can qrow. Is this the sort of thinq that was talked about in the thirties--the man- aqement of this, the technique of achievinq this? For example, social se- curity. Let's qo back further--do you remember Grace Abbott, the Chil- dren's Bureau? Oh yes. Grants-in-aid for children--maternity benefits, one of the ear1.y ones. That's right. She was almost pilloried for what she did, and her Bureau was all but snuffed out in the twenties.

Page  179179 It was. It was a beginning. When you have the Social Security Act.... Which came in 1935, as I recall it. This is a contribution with the power base now chanqed. That's certainly true. Was that rea1l.y recoqnized; that the power base had chanqed? I think so. It chanqed the whole qame. It did indeed. It sure did. Of course it was subjected to the same kind of vituperation that the TVA had been subjected to before. It was a last ditch struqqle. That's right. It was indeed. 1'11 tell you, if I may say this--Itm not going to brag on myself--after I had these hearings on these freight rate discriminations, I got an amendment to an act directing the Inter- state Commerce Commission to remove these discriminations, and then I got Franklin Delano Roosevelt to appoint two Alabamians to the Interstate Com- merce Commission. Both of them had lived in my home town, Montgomery, Ala- bama. One of them had left Montgomery to go down to Mobile to be head of the Docks Commission. He'd been head of the Transportation Division of the Montgomery Chamber of Commerce. The other one had been with the Alabama Public Service Commission and had then left for a brief period of time to

Page  180180 work with the Tennessee Valley Authority. I got Franklin D. Roosevelt to appoint those two men who had this knowledge and this background to do this job, to remove these discriminations. Has that worked out? It's worked out--there wasn't a thing you could do overnight--you know what I mean, but it's coming through pretty well now. Well, you know, talk- ing about those freight rate discriminations, did you ever hear of Pitts- burgh plus? That was horrible. Wasn't that horrible! You know, the United States Steel Corporation had a subsidiary which they have today, known as the Tennessee Coal and Iron Company. They are in Birmingham, Alabama. If you had a plant right next door to the U.S. Steel plant, and you went right next door and bought some steel, you had to pay the cost of that steel plus whatever the freight rate would have been if that steel had been shipped from Pittsburgh to Birming- ham, Alabama. That's what you were up against. I think in terms of the qrowth of the country it is a fact that the inter- ests that developed qrew larqer and stronqer than the states which had cre- ated them. There's a lot of truth in that. It took a lonq time, and it should take a lonq time because you have to feel your way, for the Conqress to move into the exercise of its discretion over Interstate Commerce, but this development created a no man's land.

Page  181181 It did. And that Pittsburqh plus was part of it. It was part of it. That's what it was--part of it. Look what the interests did to the Interstate Commerce Commission Act and the successive amendments thereto, like the Clayton Act. They tried to whittle them to pieces. The lower courts were filled with cases to over- turn this section, or dilute that section.... By the way--you know where the Clayton Act got its name. Henry D. Clayton from my State of Alabama. It was a qood act. He was the author of that act. He was chairman of that committee at the time they passed it. In fact, he came from my wife's home town, Eufala, Alabama, and he represented the congressional district in which she was born,raised, and lived until she married me--Henry D. Clayton. Thatts how it got its name. There were a lot of thinqs qoinq--the use of the in.iunction to forestall-- you know, never really reach a conclusion as to whether the act was wise or not. All these tools were cominq out of the ground like termites. They were indeed--here, there, and everywhere. So in the thirties, at lonq last, while we were standinq in the shambles, reall,v, we qot a chance to put our hands on the mechanism and chanqe its direction.

Page  182182 That's the opportunity we hadn't had before. You couldn't reach closed minds. As I say, knowing Mr. Wilson--1 didn't know him personally, but I've read a lot about him--he would have tried to have done something about these things, but that war in Europe came along very shortly after he took the oath of office and started, and that upset things. Of course, at that time we were much more dependent in an economic sense on what was going on in Europe than we are today. In those days we were a debtor nation. We were a debtor nation. In fact, some British interests had investments in the State of Alabama, and meaninq no disrespect to them, but they were absentee landlords. Yes, absentee landlords. Think back in that day and time and for many years we were great cotton producers, and we had to sell sixty-five percent of our cotton to Britain and other foreign nations. Over a barrel. That's exactly right, so you can see what happened when Britain got into the war with the Kaiser and all that business. It shuffled a few cards. It did indeed--it was interesting. It certainly did shuffle a few cards.

Page  183183 Oh yes, but to show how lonq the struqqle is--nothins happens overniqht, and it's how to hanq in there. A lot happens that vou don't anticipate, and it's the way you ad.iust, see it, the way you make it qet up and walk for one purpose here, and leavinq it sufficiently vaque so that another time can fill it with another meaning. Well, listen here--talking about that, I don't want to get too far off the subject, but I have here the March copy of Modern Medicine. Page of Cleveland is the Editor and Chief of this publication, and he speaks about a century of antisepsis and tells the story largely of Lister, the centennial. It was 1867 that he laid down his principles of antisepsis and asepsis. Think of the tremendous advances we've made, and yet there for hundreds and thousands of years--go back to Imhotep and Hippocrates. In the days before Lister laid down his principles they had a law in Eng- land prohibiting abdominal operations, and the cry was "Down with the belly rippers ! It Think of how many centuries had gone by! If you had an appendicitis you died. Good ! Yes, good bye. If you had gall stones, good bye. If you had many things, it was just good bye. The reason I brouqht in Grace Abbott was because of the qrant-in-aid factor. There are other qrants-in-aid that come alonq that are of a simi- lar nature--maternity benefits, women, maternal health, social security, but the biqqest wrinkle that comes up in the forties is the discoverv of

Page  184184 what is called a variable arant. How--let's see, the Public Health Ser- vice under the Social Securitv Act was qranted some discretion as to how it would use the funds. stuff that came over the transom to them the.v could adjust, qiven a cer- tain body of funds. It wasn't exactlv open ended, but it was--that is, That's true. But somewhere alona the line this variable qrant comes in on an education bill, a bill that you sponsored. A professor at Teachers Colleqe wrote a marvelous article, harsh and intractable facts in terms of the percentaqe of state income which a qiven state used for education, and it was friqht- ful.. . . - We did the same thing, of course, as you know, when we wrote the Hill- Burton Act. This is backqround. Yes, this was before that. The whole concept of variable qrants as a tool comes in--that is, if .vou're goinq to control tax funds and you're qoinq to use them for a purpose; name- ly to invest in your own future, how do you invest it and make it equitable. It first comes up in the field of education. That's right. As you say, that's where it first came up. Was it difficult qettinq the variable qrant accepted? It wasn't easy. It was not easy. We ran into the same kind of prob-

Page  185185 lems--sure. No doubt about that--we had our problems. It makes sense--this little article this fellow wrote, this professor at Teachers Colleqe, Columbia, makes a hell of a lot of sense. I'd like to see that article. I think it's in the files. I'd like to see it. I sure would. How recent is it? It qoes back to the time of--1946, I think, maybe a little earlier. Ini- tially there was a question of servicemen--education for servicemen, hospi- tal facilities for servicemen, benefits for servicemen's families--this was all durinq the forties and may have provided some basis for thinkinq about what to do when we're not in a wartime period. In any event, some of the difficulties in lanquaqe, as the files disclose, were ironed out with refer- ence to servicemen first. You qot some elbow room in thinkinq, some new facts to play with, but the variable qrant is, I think, a key. No doubt about that. That's the key. It was indeed. Let me come talk to you about the variable qrant aqain as it emerqed as an idea. - Good, but we've got a little more time. I wonder whv it was so difficult for you to qet a reallv simple idea like this accepted. For example, if it's important to open up rivers and har- bors to create opportunity, if it's important for rural electrification to liqht up the lives of people, if rural telephones are important as a kind

Page  186186 of status symbol, but also to brinq them in touch with more.... I was the author of that bill, by the way. I know you were. It9s of a piece with other thinkinq that you had about the area. But here--to come to this education bill. This is the first idea .you had in that very first election that .you were in--way back--fed- era1 support for education. Correct. But how are you qoinq to qet federal support on the basis of equality when a state like New York spends only three percent of its income on education and a state like Alabama spends thirty-five percent of its income. It doesn't make sense. You know, how to move mountains! How do you qet this variable qrant idea across so that it ultimately is an acceptable item be- cause it really does make sense, and it has chanqed the map in Alabama? It did. You have to keep hammering away. What sort of arquments did they use aqainst it? It seems so plain. In the Senate each state has two Senators. I know. You understand. You neqotiate with a parade. That's correct. But there was a lot of support for this.

Page  187187 Oh yes, we marshalled support--oh yes, we did. But it took some time for it to qet across the footliqhts. Yes, it sure did. It took quite a while. There is some arqument raised about the wav the act was worc>d--I'm think- inq about Hill-Burton later on, because the same kind of question is raised then as to whether you can finance construction of denominational hospitals. Well, the wa,y the act is worded you could finance the construction of hos- pitals for service purposes--the question of whether it is denominational, or nondenominational is somethinq which is excluded. That's right--out. Aqain it depends on how it is administered, qiven--I won't say the "vaque- ness", but the way in which it is applied and the astuteness of the admin- istrators--once they have the enablinq act. Some of our best hospitals that have been built are denominational hospitals. The question was service. Yes, the question was service. Like the arqument you had about the steam plant. That's right. They didn't read the act.

Page  188188 That's correct. I see this whole problem in terms of qettinq this notion of variabilitv ac- cepted as a tool because now it can be used in a hundred ways--.Vou know, it has behind it the weiqht of an accredited past. It's part of our tradition. That's true. But as of the time vou had a hard job. Oh yes, it was a hard job in the old days, an uphill battle--sure was. It's a qreat idea--in keepinq with all that we've been talkinq about--the formation of a qovernment aqency, a qovernment corporation for people to invest in their own future. We have the taxinq power, and we have more funds available to us as a nation than we have as separate states. It makes so much sense. Think of the arquments that were used in the 1936 campaiqn, the 1940 campaiqn, the 1944 campaiqn, and even the 1948 campaiqn--all on the basis of individual initiative, freedom to contract--isn't it absurd! It is indeed. What does it mean to Joe Jones, and Vet that idea persists, but how hollow when you read their arquments, and I quess they would tr.v to emasculate a qovernment corporation to enable people to invest in their own future be- cause they have this marriaqe to a the0r.y which must be applied, and they are not open to conviction on a new set of facts. That's kind of a harsh thins to say about them, but 1'11 risk it. Well, you see, they didn't get too far because from 1932 to 1952, a

Page  189189 period of twenty years in there, as you know, we've had Franklin Roosevelt, or Harry Truman. Thev didn't qet verv far. No, they didn't get very far. You can pose aqainst that period of time the period from 1952 to 1960--the theories reappeared. They reappeared all right, but they didn't get very far. They reappeared. The?/ sure did, didn't the?/. And I think really--I like General Eisenhower personally. He was al- ways mighty nice to me, but he was a war hero, and whereas Adlai Stevenson-- he's gone now--and I liked him, and he was a brilliant man, a brilliant man, but he never came to quite have the common touch. Isn't that right? He was a brilliant man, and I'm sure that he would have made a great president-- and brilliant, one of the most brilliant men I think our country has produced, but he didn't seem to quite have the common touch. Am I right about that? He didn't come across--as a matter of fact, neither candidate came across very well. It was really a kind of charade that was used--"I will qo to Korea." That seemed to stampede everything. Yes, that sort of business.

Page  190190 I'm sorry that happened because I don't think it really qave an appraisal, but it was a pause that refreshed for the next development--no more. It was merely a holdinq action. That's correct, and those things happen--sure. They happen in life. You have these pauses--that's a good word for it, a pause. That's just about what it was--stock takins and soothinq themselves with empty qeneralizations, but proqrams don't emerqe. Idea is pretty barren, except in the health field. Let's come back next time to Hill-Burton and how it emerqed. Did you ever know President Eisenhower? No, sir. You couldn't know the man without liking him.

Page  191191 Senate Office Buildins, Wednesda.y, April 12, 1967. So many thinqs had happened to us--happened under stressful conditions, war conditions. That's right. Of course, you realize that by the time we really got the bill that became the Hill-Burton Act introduced, the war had pretty much ended. You see, the war with Hitler came to an end in April, and then with those bombs--in August that was the end of the Japanese, so it was time to move forward on the domestic front. I don't know whether the correspondence shows this or not, but for your information and background, Harold Burton had been Mayor of Cleveland, Ohio, and George Bugbee had been the administrator--1 guess that was his title-- of the big city hospital there in Cleveland. That's where George and Harold had known one another, and then George left that administratorship in Cleve- land to become--1 don't know whether they call it the Executive Secretary of the American Hospital Association. Harold and I were on the now Labor and Public Welfare Committee--they changed the name a little bit in the Re- organization Act in 1946--and we introduced that bill in August of 1945. Then Harold the next month became a Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States and an awful fine man he was too, a mighty fine man. Some of the early hearinqs are in July, 1944. We started back then, but we couldn't get action until this war busi- ness was pretty much over. We were spending so much money naturally to win that war. The first job was to win that war.

Page  192192 The war itself had disclosed fantastic problems--take the number of men who were. . 7 Oh yes. . . .rejected--staqqering! That's right. Forty percent--somethinq was wronq in the richest country in the world. Isn't that true--now. About forty percent, as you say. There's a lot of continuity in the correspondence from your home state, Alabama, people sayinq, !!Gee, can you qive me the name of a physician-- an yon e ? '! That's right. That was the situation. Just like today--1 think one of our biggest problems is the cost of hospital care. It's staqqerinq. It's staggering--isn't that right? It surely is. But that, in some wa,ys, was presented as a kind of deterrent to the Hill- Burton Act initial1.y because the thouqht was that the local community could not sustain it once constructed. That's right. That's what they said. "Why put up this money when the local community couldn't sustain it!" The funny thing is--do you know where we had more trouble than anywhere else?

Page  193193 Where? - It was with the House, and the Chairman of the House Committee came from a state which, I think, has as much benefit from Hill-Burton as any state in the Union, and that's North Carolina--Mr. Bullwinkle, Chairman of the Commerce Committee. That committee handled the legislation in the House, you see, and oh boy, what a time we had with him in conference! He didn't want to put any money to amount to anything in the bill. That's just another hurdle. Then after we passed tie bill, no state got more benefit out of it than did the State of North Carolina. Bullwinkle was a good fellow, but he just didn't see the picture. That's the problem of neqotiatinq with a parade. I understand that. That's right--that's your problem. 'That's exactly right--that's where our problem came, and of course too, when Harold went to the Supreme Court in September after we really got started in August, why he couldn't be too much help because he was over there on the Court which I fully understood, and I was delighted that he was there, but he wasn't over here on the bat- tlefield--you see, but he was a wonderful, fine man. I wouldn't take any credit away from him. He was a very fine man, and the very fact that we had his name on the bill was a great asset--great asset. It certainly tied in the two areas. That's what it did--sure.

Page  194194 Hiqhly industrialized Ohio. Yes. Where, while it was a wealthy state, it had fantastic needs also. That's right--that is certainly true. So the very fact that his name was on that bill was a great asset, 1'11 tell you. He was a mighty fine man--mighty fine. In some of the hearinqs--oh, the devil's advocate was Senator Taft. That s right. I like Senator Taft not for his views, but because of the antibodies he arouses sometimes. He pressed his views. Sure--well, even though you might not agree with him, you couldn't know Bob Taft and not have great respect for the fellow and great admira- tion for him. He was a strong man. He was sticky in those hearinqs. That's right. He certainly was. He really was--yes, he was. Well, he just hadn't yet reached the state of mind where he wanted to go forward with federal aid programs, so to speak. For that purpose. Yes, for that purpose--that's right. He was still late nineteenth century.

Page  195195 Yes, he was. you know, a question I wondered about--we talked last time about the shift in the power base and the whole notion of loans where they strangled devel- opment of various reqions of the country because bankinq was centered larqe- 1.y in Wall Street--that's the symbol. That's right. That was the symbol in the old days. But in the thirties that symbol came crashing down to the qround. It certainly did, and the thing changed then. Riqht. It sure did. It suddenly appeared that the real implication in the 1895 tax case would shift the power. That's right. I think that's correct. But Senator Taft never seemed to recoqnize that fact, did he? I had great respect for him, but he held those views just as you said. I had great respect for him, great respect for him. You sat on--the committee chairman was Murray at that time. No, the committee chairman at that time--was Jim Murray chairman, or was Elbert Thomas? Maybe Thomas had taken over the Military Affairs Commit- tee. I guess he had. Thomas had been chairman, and in 1945, Bob Reynolds

Page  196196 left the Senate. He retired, Senator from North Carolina, and Elbert Thomas took the chairmanship of the old Military Affairs Committee. You see, at that time you had the War Department with the Army and the Air Force--and the Air Force was just an arm of the Army really at that time, just like the infantry, the artillery. We had the Military Committee for the War Department, the Army and the Air Force, and the Naval Committee for the Navy. As I remember, when Bob Reynolds retired in 1945, Elbert Thomas then gave up the chairmanship of the Education and Labor Committee, as we called it at that time, and he took the chairmanship of the Military Af- fairs Committee, and Jim Murray then became chairman of the Labor and Edu- cation Committee. Somewhere alonq in there he named a special subcommittee to come out with a report. That's right. You were its chairman. Yes, I was the chairman. Yes, he named, set up this special committee, and I was named the chairman. I want to say this about Jim Murray; that he was always most cooperative and most helpful in all these matters. His correspondence is very qood on the power question as to what the advi- sory council would do, what the Public Health Service would do, and where review would be--real tough, legal questions. Jim was always--he was always mighty fine. But on the subcommittee--1 quess there was Senator Ellender.

Page  197197 Yes, Ellender was on there. I guess we had about five, didn't we? Tunnell. Tunnell was from Delaware. LaFollette. LaFollette was from Wisconsin, and Taft and myself. Ellender, Tunnell, and I were the three Democrats, and Taft and LaFollette were the two Repub- licans, and by the way, Bob LaFollette was a mighty fine man. He was open to conviction on this? Oh yes, he was. He was a man of vision, a forward looking mind and most helpful. Bob was a mighty fine man. I sorely deplored his defeat. You know who defeated him, don't you? Yes. - Yes, you understand. I understand. You understand. That was a terrible loss to the country when Bob was defeated. It sure was. 1'11 tell you one reason he was defeated. Bob was the representative on the Joint Committee from the Senate as Mike Monroney, at that time in the House, was from the House on the reorganizing plan which became effec-

Page  198198 tive in 1946, and Bob was so interested in trying to work out this reorgan- ization of the Congress, the two Houses, the Senate and the House, that he really didn't go home and campaign which he would have no doubt done under normal conditions--see, and had he gone home and campaigned, the thought was that he would not have been defeated. He would have been reelected. That was a great loss to the Senate and to the country when Bob LaFollette was defeated. He was an awfully fine Senator and a fine, forward looking man. Not only the defeat, but the continuinq virus from.... Oh yes--exactly. That caused the most fantastic paralysis in idea and imaqination. It certainly did, by golly. A body blow--well, we survived it. Yes, we survived it, but we went through quite an ordeal. But we're stronqer for havinq had it. I think so--1 think we are stronger. It's a peculiar thinq about America, how it throws to the surface people from time to time that qive us this kind of challenqe. That's right. Give us a qood run for our money.

Page  199199 We survived it--we came through all right. We sure did. Well, it sapped some of the fiber for a while. It did. It did indeed. Especiallv in the foreiqn field. There's no question about that. You felt, wherever you were, that you wanted to be Saint Georqe with the draqon, and that was some draqon! Some dragon--it really was. Tell me in the emerqence of an idea about hospitals, as in Hill-Burton, where does a fellow like Joe Mountin, or Tom Parran fit--you know, the con- tinuinq sources of information like the Public Health Service? Joe Mountin sparked a lot of ideas. He may not have had much continuity with them, but he certainly qenerated them. He certainly did. He was a good man, and Tom Parran I always thought was one of the very ablest Surgeon Generals we've ever had down here. He was a very able man, a very able man. You see, Franklin Roosevelt brought him down from New York State when FDR came down. thing that we had Tom Parran. That was a very fortunate A qood man. Yes, he was a good man. He'd been speakinq around the country, writinq articles about the hospitals

Page  200200 wav back. Oh yes, sure. He had seen the situation, and he recognized what it was. Sure. Tom was quite a man, as you say. He certainly was. Or the placinq of Vane Hoqe in a spot where they could develop--particularly and initial1.v in war impacted areas--certain needs and demands that had to be met. Yes, had to be met. You couldn't waste time with those. No, you couldn't waste time with those. Out of that qrows the continuity for developinq plans. That's right. Did you ever know Vane, by the way? Yes, I've talked with him. He works with the Hospital Association now--you know. Yes, he does--a qood man. He is a good man. Sharp on statistics--wowie! Yes, he is. You know. Yes, I know. Vane is a good man.

Page  201201 But there is this developinq bodv of material. At the same time there is this Murra.v-Waqner-Dinqle Bill--way bevond, a huqe bill by comparison. From a tactical point of view was it sparked to draw the flack? I don't want that to sound like a curve ball. It is a fact that the health insur- ance scheme in the Murray-Waqner-Dinqle Bill did receive criticism. It did--yes it did. Now ultimatelv thev trv to embodv the Hill-Burton Bill inside the Murray- Waqner-Dinqle Bill, but, you know--that's a question of do you go with plums, or do you qo with qrapes. That's right. I think that's a good way to put it. If vou can draw off--put it this way; those who are neqative have to be for somethinq. That's right. You .iust can't be forever and a da.y aqainst. No, you can't be agin' all the time. No, you cannot. I wondered about that. Hill-Burton was a basis upon which people could aqree. And be positive--yes, be affirmative. The hearinqs show that. Sure.

Page  202202 It's funny--,vou know, we talked about the limited vision back in the twen- ties, if vou only could see around corners what the power interests miqht have done with TVA, but since Murra.v-Waqner-Dinqle we've come around not precise1.v to the same position, but one consistent with it under the Social Security Act. That's right--under the Social Security Act. That's it. Suppose we had done-it earlier rather than later. That's right--rather than later. That certainly is correct. It shows the sensitivit.v of the representative form to orqanized qroups that scream and holler, but naviqatinq those shoals must be a lot of fun-- you know, to float one bill and to see it shot down in flames and at the same time to push this other one. Yes, push it around. That is correct. You have to navigate, as you say. Yes, and have the neqative ones come ifi as part of the cheerinq squad. Yes, bring them in. Support was enormous. Murray raised some question about the review of de- cisions. I don't know whether any questions have ever been raised about review of decisions--the Public Health Service under the Surqeon General. I don't know that they have been--do you ? I don't think so--no. Of course, we have the Hospital Council set up in the act and a lot of authority, as you know, is through your state health

Page  203203 departments. A lot of action has to be taken by the council which is set up in the bill itself, and that is a council composed of representative citizens, so to speak, interested in the health field. It's like sa.yinq, "Give them a hearinq. They can never sa.y the.y haven't been heard .'I That's right. "Give them their day in Exactlv. There's a lot of wisdom behind that. "Give them their day in court." You know, the bill asks for serious consideration of a state plan. That's right. And that's a good thinq. We wondered before--there was a lot of criticism in the thirties from that other party to the effect that all eyes were fas- tened on Washinqton. "It's qoinq to be a unitary form of qovernment. They're qoinq to qobble up everythinq." Well, the Social Security Act re- versed that trend, in part, but even deeper than that and b.v the time you qet to Hill-Burton, there is the recoqnition that there is this power base and the real question is the purpose for which it is to be used. That's right. Isn't it. That's true. Well, you remember before any funds could be given to a state, they first had to make a survey of the state, the whole state--all

Page  204204 the counties and cities in the state, their different areas, and work out a sort of overall plan as a result of this survey. In fact, it is called the Hospital Survey and Construction Act. The word "survey" is in there. It wasn't to be a haphazard, grab bag proposition. It wasn't. No, sir. That's a qood thinq because it involves the local people--investinq for their own health care. That's right, and I've always thought a lot of that passage in the book--"where your treasury is there is your heart also." The fact that these local people had put up some money of their own gives them an inter- est, gives them a pride in the hospital that they otherwise wouldn't have. Makes a difference. The psychology is different. All these thinqs are tied in. In the thirties we beqan the development of roads, and--,you know, roads suddenly extend your abi1it.y to move. That's right. You can concentrate better in qiven areas because you can qet there. Yes, get there--sure. It makes a difference in how you plan.

Page  205205 That certainly is true. Cominq from the Second District you knew what it was to qet from one corner to Montqomery in the twenties. You see, my District ran all the way from the capital city, Montgomery, down to the end of Baldwin County which is on the Gulf of Mexico, some lit- tle distance down there. Travelinq in the twenties was certainly a different thinq from travelinq in the thirties. Oh my! And b.y the time we qet throuqh the forties and fifties, it's a piece of cake by comparison. Indeed--it is indeed. It put more of what is qettable within the reach of people. That's right. And with your telephone bill they can call the qroup practice clinic, or the hospital--it's all of a piece. That is true. I think the review of state plans is lodqed in the Surqeon General. Primarily so--yes. In the sense of standards.

Page  206206 That's right. The work is really done by the hospital division of which Vane Hoge was the head. As Amos and Andy would say, "He checked and double checked." He knew what he was doing. You know how it is with these councils. We have a council for the nine Institutes of Health. We have many different councils. Well, they come in, and they stay in session a couple of days, but they don't have the time to go into all the details of checking and double checking, so we have to have somebody just like Vane Hoge was. It's detail that conditions judqment. That's exactly right. But there was a wa.y in which whatever plans came out could be reviewed, revised, and suqqestions made. That's right--suggestions made. And hesides, I think there was virtue in the act in the sense that hospitals didn't sprinq into beinq overniqht. It showed consideration. Yes, it showed consideration. On a state-wide basis, even the local and state health service people had to think state-wide. Oh yes, they had to think. They had to make that survey. That was the first thing that had to be done. I don't recall the exact date of the first grant under the act, but it was some months afterwards because they had to make this survey first--you see.

Page  207207 And I think the bill provided for assistance from a fund point of view in the makinq of the survey. Yes--in the making of the survey because we recognized the importance of that thing. The bill also recoqnized, did it not, the facts of economic life in each state? Oh, it did do that because we had an available formula--your per cap- ita income. We talked about that last time--that was the key in a way. That's right--exactly right. That was in the education act as a variation on the early Social Security Act which also contained matchinq qrants on some formula, but didn't recoq- nize that there were differences in the states. That's true. This was an effort--1 don't know whether it was called equalization. I'm not sure that that's the proper word even now, but it did reflect the fact that one state stood with reference to this act in a different way from a more wealthy state like New York, or Ohio. There is a difference. It worked out an equitable formula. The important thing was the health--the police power "protect the health, welfarett etc. It9, a very interesting evolution of idea and means, techniques to achieve it--you know. Sure.

Page  208208 The fifty bed hospitals which were created--most of them were small. Most of them were small--that's right. But with travel beinq what it was, they were more reasonablv located. I think one of the thinqs which .YOU mentioned in testimonv before the commit- tee was the fact that you had heard, learned and been told that when doctors who had been siphoned off and sent overseas with the troops came back, they wouldn't necessari1.v settle in areas where there weren't hospitals. That was true--that was undoubtedly true. You take today. If a doc- tor doesn't have a hospital to work in, he won't go in that area, and you can understand why. Of course--it makes sense from his point of view. Why certainly. You take, particularly your small areas--who is going to do your radiological work for you? Who is going to examine your blood for you? Who is going to examine your urine? Who is going to do all those things which are so necessary today as we know it. Who is going to admin- ister your anesthesia? You've qot to have it. Yes--you've got to have it--exactly. Not six months from now. No--you've got to have it now. You have to build a better mouse trap.

Page  209209 That brings home to me--did you know Ed He was down here as Assistant Secretary of HEW for Health and Dempsey? Science. He had the job that Phil Lee now has. He was former Dean of the University of Washington Medical School, and he's now head of the Depart- ment of Anatomy at Columbia--P & s. I had a letter from him that I used to get my appropriations through last year. I got this letter just before we were getting ready to write up that bill, in which he told me how he ar- rived there--the day he got to P & S he had this coronary attack, and if it hadn't been for that coronary unit that they have there at P & S, he wouldn't be alive today. That's continqency at its best. Yes--at its best. You're darn right. He wrote me that letter volun- tarily, and don't think I didn't use it to good effect too. It sounds like a leveraqe letter. It was a good letter--yes. I think I told you the story of the money for the rubella vaccine. I don't know whether I want to put this on the record, but a good friend of mine helped me in most of my efforts for research, and I said that I wanted to put in ten million dollars to carry on research on rubel- la. That was two years ago. This fellow said, "Oh, hell, we can't do that." Such-and-such "pharmaceutical companytf--calling their names--"they contri- buted to my last campaign. They don*t want the government to do this.

Page  210210 Leave it to them. Leave it to them." Well, I called a fellow named Albert Sabin and told him what my situa- tion was, and I said, ((1 want you to send me a telegram on the importance of going forward with the development of this rubella vaccine," and I got just what I wanted from him, so when the question came up, here I had this great Sabin telling me we ought to go ahead with this vaccine and, by golly, we went ahead. We put the money in, and we've almost got that vaccine to- day, as you and I know. They feel pretty sure of it now. They're making test trials, but they're pretty sure that they have it, and as you know, a woman if she got that rubella during her first three months of pregnancy, gosh, she might have a blind child, a deaf child, or a child with a terri- ble heart condition, bone structure all wrong, and many other defects. It's worth it. We've just about got that. What we know as ordinary measles--we're just about ready to wipe that out, just like we wiped out polio, and it's just a very short period of time now that I think we'll have this rubella wiped out. It's worth it. Yes--it's worth it. Sure it's worth it! You've qot to harness the power vou have. That's right. Do you know how many cases of polio we had in this country this last year?

Page  211211 Well, I had hearings before my committee Monday--we had sixty-six cases, and I think about ten years ago we had about thirty-six thousand cases, didn't we? There's a difference. It brouqht it to a halt. Yes--it brought it to a halt--sure. Just like one of my witnesses talking about Malaya and yellow fever, and I said, "What you did there-- you licked the mosquito" which is true. They licked that mosquito. I told you the story of J. Marion Sims. That was a lonq time aqo, but not on the tape. Well, he came down to Alabama and went out to a place, Mount Miegs somewhere--fifteen, or sixteen miles out of Montgomery, and he started practicing there--just a small rural community, so to speak, but there was a creek very near by, and those mosquitoes were awful bad out there, so he moved in to Montgomery, Alabama--see, in to the larger city where he didn't have those mosquitoes like he did out there at Mount Miegs. Really, it was right there at Montgomery where he did his basic work to become the father of modern gynecology, as we know it today. Then he went on, as you know, to New York, went on to Paris as the physician to the Empress Eugenie--but those mosquitoes rousted him out of Mount Miegs. I understand that. You understand that. I sure do.

Page  212212 1'11 tell you that he had his office on the site where afterwards my father constructed his office. He had left by the time my father was ready to build his office. Marion Sims had moved on out, of course, had gone on, but that office of my father, that old building--of course, my father has been dead now some twenty-one years, and he stopped practicing too some years before he died. He lived to eighty-four years old. On that building there is this tablet, saying that this was once the site of the office of Dr. J. Marion Sims because those mosquitoes had run him from Mount Miegs to Montgomery. The most interesting story my father used to tell was that back in the old days when they had yellow fever there in Montgomery, after a patient died and they wanted to do an autopsy, what a job they had getting doctors to do that autopsy! They didn't want to get that close to it. Think in that day and time they weren't quite so sure that the mosquito was the vec- tor. They didn't know. Do you know where they had one of the worst epi- demics of yellow fever of any place in this country? Philadelphia. You wouldn't think about it being that far north, but Philadelphia was one of the worst epidemics of yellow fever--right there in Philadelphia. As far as the c0untr.y is concerned we have the means to push that kind of thins out into the Gulf Stream. That's right--we do--sure. It's some of the refinements, in a way--maybe not refinements. Malaria is coming back--resistant strains. I suppose that battle is qoinq to be a continuous one.

Page  213213 As I said to one of my witnesses yesterday, or the day before--1 said, ttYou talk about these diseases. Take hepatitis. In the old days, we didn't know much about hepatitis. might get hepatitis." Now I'm afraid to eat raw clams for fear that I Of course, that's your polluted waters out here. We ought to have started on this pollution fifty years ago. Yes. I think I told you once that we should have started on that when Watt discovered the steam enqine. You did. You told me that. When Watt discovered the steam plant, by golly, we should have started on this question of pollution. Riqht. We went on for years. Without even thinkinq about it. In wavs I think we sort of ad.iusted to its consequences, but it is qettinq pretty staqqerinq now. It is. It is getting pretty staggering now. You take what happened there in New York--my gosh. It just settled and stayed. It settled and stayed--it sure did. I was up there in it. It was like cuttinq your wa.v throuqh it. You were up there in it. It was--you know, .iust there. I

Page  214214 Yes--something. When I was at school there at Columbia University a good many years ago, you wouldn't have dreamed of anything like that. Frankly, you wouldn't have dreamed of a fellow knocking your head down in one of those subways then either. Variables do have a way of chanqinq. They have their way of changing. I used to ride that subway all the time. That was my means of traffic when I was going down to 42nd Street to the theater, or going on Sunday to church down there, or going over to Brooklyn to church, but I don't ride those subways in New York now. In the first place, it's no lonqer a nickel ride from one end to the other. Yes, it used to be a nickel ride. That's what it was. The subway stopped right there at 116th Street, right at Columbia. You know where the main campus is, and for a nickel you went where you wanted to. There was a preacher, Dr. Neal Dwight Hillis--1 may have told you this before, and if I have, stop me, but he preached at the old Congregational Church, by the way, where Henry Ward Beecher had preached, and on Sunday evening instead of preaching an orthodox sermon, he usually would more or less lecture. He might take a play from Shakespeare, "Macbeth", or something like that, and very often I used to go over there on Sunday evening and hear him. One nickel from 116th Street, New York, right to the first stop in Brooklyn. The old church is right there, almost the first subway stop. Oh, sure. That made sense. I understand wh.y you don't ride the subways now. - Yes, that made sense in that day and time.

Page  215215 We've increased the cost of the subway ride without increasinq the securit,y. That's right--I'd say without maintaining the security--see, because in that day and time I don't recall reading in the New York Times anything about any particular crime. There may have been some, I guess, but nothing like we have here in these more recent years--you know, by golly. No. In this sense "pollution" takes on a new meaning. Sure it does. You know, back at this time when these two bills were up, there was another one that was up, and I wondered what its rationale was. This was the child and maternity care bill. Now--you know, thinkinq back, I wondered if it was a way in which to split pediatricians from doctors qeneral1.v who were aqainst what they called, and didn't understand, "socialized medicine." Under the child and maternitv care bill there were benefits in a m0netar.y sense for pediatricians who handled. ... Those cases--right. Let me ask you this. I recall the bill well. Refresh my recollection. Who was the author of that bill? I'd be quessinq riqht now. That's the reason I askeL you the question. That's been a .>w years ago--yes. But I thouqht--you know, it was a way, and I think it was put out that

Page  216216 these were physicians who were now qivinq this care free, and this would enable them to at least qive the care and receive some personal benefit for it. It was a wa.y, or so I thouqht, one could split the phalanx of those who were aqainst what thev called "socialized medicine" without qet- tinq into the details. I don't know whether it was thouqht of in those terms. I think child care and maternit.y benefits are important quite apart from this, but it could be used. It could be used. I think your thinking is sound. One doctor who is mentioned in the files in writinq about this is John Peters from Yale. John Peters--is he still living? No, he's qone. He was a whirlinq dervish. He's gone. Wasn't he in the thirties responsible with others for floatinq a new or- qanization of ph.ysicians to compete with the older orqanizations? I don't remember too specifically, but I think you're right. He was quite a fellow. But the thirties was a period when we could set up new orqanizations to compete. That's right. Well, we had conditions that you just talked about that brought the old dynasties down. The old dynasties fell. The,y stood in the wa.y, and others beqan to say, "Move over, and qive us

Page  217217 some skx!" They stood in the way--they sure did. As a matter of fact, I think Peters and his qroup led to the first National Health Survey. They may have done so. I'm not sure. Josephine Roach is a name that pops into mv head. Yes, she was quite a leader in that day and time. But imaqine havinq the first National Health Surve.y, I think, on WPA funds-- I'm pretty sure. Josephine Roach--wasn't she connected with the State Health Department of New York, or wasn't she? Do you remember? I remember her name well, but it's been so long ago. I remember her activity and her leadership. I think here she set up and ran the first National Health Conference here in Washinqton, and out of that came this first National Health Surve.y sup- ported b.y WPA funds at the time, but then we had more information than we ever had before. I think that was true--I'm sure that was true. Peters and his crowd were very instrumental in supporting it aqainst--I guess the.y fixed it so the American Medical Association, and I don't mean any disrespect for them.... I understand.

Page  218218 Jhev had to go alonq with it. I remember Josephine Roach--she was quite a leader. fi whirlinq dervish. She was quite a leader. At least it built some tracks on which you could set some cars. That's right. And it chanqes after a while. People think in different wavs. One of the thinqs that surprised me most in the files that I have read on Hill-Burton is the--oh, some of the real savaqe attacks on the Murrav-Waqner-Dinqle Bill. You know, they leap off the paqe, and what they offer is a kind of theory they're defendinq without diqqinq into the detail which should have conditioned their .iudqment. I'm qlad the.v write because they constitute a hurdle--well, certain thinqs are warm and familiar to them, and thevtre not ready to reach for somethinq new, but those you have to draq alonq ul- timately, and you chanqe the scene b.y buildinq roads without their ever knowinq it, by constructinq hospitals that are within a reasonable dis- tance, and suddenly they're sharinq in the benefits, and you've based the chanqe on the consideration and .iudqment of their own state and their own state people. That s right. It brinqs the draqon riqht down--their the0r.v. That's right. That is true.

Page  219219 That's what's so excitinq about qoins throuqh these papers, the manner in which a qood idea is floated and then docked--.vou know, it qets all kinds of flack because people don't understand it. TheV have positive views. But it is surprisinq the number of aqencies that you qot to support this Hill-Burton--Labor, Farmers, riqht on down the line. Well, there was such a need for it. And the.y recoqnized it not onlv--I mean, their answers to Senator Taft are marvelous because he was alwa.vs askinq whether the.v would be able to pay, and the labor unions were sa.vinq, "Well, we already have a pre-pa.yment plan, and weld be qlad to do this. We already have this ....I' Well, it sort of took some of the stinq out of his questions. Sure it did. I saw the picture. With my father being a surgeon there in Montgomery, and a patient out on a farm stricken with an appendix, or something else where he needed a hospital--the patient had to ride these old, rough, muddy roads, get to the railroad station to wait for the train, and it might be two hours late getting there, and then that train would take him to a junction, and he'd have to lay off there at that junction, and finally get to the hospital there at Montgomery. wait all that time, from what he said he wouldn't be here today. If Ed Dempsey had to But think of that kind of hurdle before a simple need, a definable need, even in your Dad's time--an appendectomy. Imaqine--peritonitis--all the rest of it. Of course.

Page  220220 To say nothinq of the pain in transit. That's right--miserable, and remember when that peritonitis set in in that day and time, you didn't have any antibiotics. When that set in, that was a roll of the dice wasn't it? It certainly was. All you could do was put that rubber tube in there-- that was all. Terrible, but with roads, ambulances, and so on.... Things are all different today. You've qot a chance. You've got a chance--sure have. You've got a chance today. I haven't seen the latest fiqures, but this bill--1 want to qo into some of the refinements. Maybe we'd better take those up later. There seems to have been a built in re-examination qoinq on all the time. Well, there should be. Like anythinq else--if you're qoinq to hanq on to somethinq as thounh it is eternal, forqet it because it's qoinq to chanqe. That's right. There should be re-examination. You know, the surprisinq thinq is the movement of population in the forties, durinq the wartime--you know, where we needed thinqs. Somehow we took pop- ulation and moved it--well, they came because they had the skills we needed,

Page  221221 but the burdens that were placed on existinq facilities--on schools, on sewers--everythinq. Like Hartford, Connecticut--it just turned Hartford, Connecticut up on its ear. "What are you qoinq to do when .you crowd this facility?tt and I think Joe Mountin had a part which had to do with war impacted areas. Yes, he did. As I recall, he did. This was a wa.y in which you could learn more about what happened with popu- lation, what happened to services that were available to them, what they needed, and those had to be met, but then out of that Mountin set Vane Hoqe to stud.y the much larqer problem of what happens when we set back to peace- time. There is a provision in the act, or at least the act seems to have been floated not as a public works scheme. Let me dilute this. There's a certain attack in the election of 1944, on the administration in that it wasn't planninq for peacetime, qettinq its thinkinq in step for reconver- sion. I think--Dewey, I believe it was hammered awa.y at this; namely, that the next administration would be a peacetime administration, and that this administration, the then current administration, was not prepared for peace. Well, I don't know. I say that these hearinqs start in 1944 which was long before that election. Yes, before the election--we sure did. Tom Parran and Joe Mountin had been thinkinq about this lonq before 1944, early 1940, 1941. Wasn't the WPA terminated and--well, I forqet the collec- tion of aqencies that fell inho WPA, but one of them was war impacted areas. Yes, we passed the Lanham Act.

Page  222222 That's it. The Lanham Act. For instance, they put a big powder plant in a little bitty, small place in Alabama known as Childersburg, Alabama. Well, Child- ersburg just couldn't possibly take care of the needs of those people brought in there to run this powder plant, and yet, by golly, we had to have that powder for those boys over there on that western front and out there in the Pacific, so the government had to go in there and help do some- thing and right at Childersburg there's a little town of Sylacauga, Alabama, and we built a hospital in Sylacauga with war impacted funds--that is, un- der that Lanham Act--you see, to meet the compelling needs of this great increase in population there. That's how it came in--the Lanham Act. The Lanham Act--it sure was. That made sense, and it was immediate. That's right--immediate--sure. In the sense that planninq and surve.v was warped to fit an immediate need-- you know, the war effort and the needs which were riqht there at the moment. To meet pressing needs. Out of that comes the lonq term view. A lot of questions come up on another side--what to do about servicemen's wives, and your files are filled with ltI1m about to have a baby, and I want my man home!" That's right.

Page  223223 This isn't just idle chitchat from this woman. These are real, personal problems, 1'11 tell you. They were indeed. ttWhere do I qo? He's not here to take me. You're elected." That *s right. Those aren't stray letters. .. No, no--1 should say not. I quess menfolk and womenfolk were pretty busy in those da.ys. They sure were--we had a job to do. But they were all wonderinq what was qoinq to happen to their child when it was born--"Where am I to qo?" Those letters came to you. Well, you can understand why they came. Of course. Sure. They don't want just a pass and a prayer. They want an answer. That's right. As you say, they don't want just sympathy. They want action. !'Keep your towels! Just send me a name. me some place to go, or send my man back to me." Give me a door to knock on. Give That's certainly true.

Page  224224 That creates a climate that is not understandable in terms of the 1944 election. The opposition didn't have the detail-vou know, and didn't think that there was any planninq qoinq on. It may well have been that-- what is that place? The War Production Board--people on the War Production Board ma.v well have had narrow vision, may have been struqqlinq over who was qoinq to control what when the war was over as distinct from whether wetre qoinq to make the economy qet up and move. I understand that--you know, limited as it was, but I would have thouqht that some of the people who were on that War Production Board thinking in these terms were already in the opposition part?/--you know. Some of them were. I thouqht the war impacted areas and this chanqe to hospital construction over a lonqer ranqe could also be considered as a work pro.ject for the areas. but the title isn't in those terms. [the buzzer] That's all right. Don't worry about that buzzer. It was rinqinq up a storm. The Senate met today earlier than usual. I didn't know at the time I set this meeting with you that it was going to meet early. Instead of meeting at twelve o'clock we met at, eleven o'clock this morning, and those last bells you heard were just as the morning hour was over with, so it's nothing to worry about. Now, if I get one long ring, we'll have to worry then because that's a vote, a yea or nay vote, but I don't think we'll vote that quickly.

Page  225225 That's news. But it is interestins, I think, in retrospect, how all these thinqs tie toqether. Isn't it? It is indeed. The same sort of thins--when you think in terms of the implications in the TVA for the development of roads, development of towns, villaqes, schools, and better 0pportunit.p-also with this comes health problems. I haven't seen any fiqures as to the construction of hospitals in the TVA area, but I know in terms of the states--boy, it's ,just qrown. It's grown, and it's grown right in that area, of course, to beat the band. It sure has. And think of not havinq to borrow from Wall Street to set it done. That's right. You put your hand on it there, boy. You put your hand on it. The shift in power. Yes, the shift in power. Shift in power and its purpose--well, it's qrown. It sure has. You don't draw distinctions any more between one area and another in terms of what is available. We've qot huqe centers that are within strikinq dis- tance of almost anyone. That's true.

Page  226There's a qeneral sharinq. It isn't because I have a few extra dollars and can knock on the riqht door. Development makes a difference. Yes, it makes a difference-sure it does. I wonder--vou know, in retrospect about some of the people. Even Taft would have been happy about this. I'm sure that's true. But when he needed help for his particular problem, none was available. I'm sure what you say is true. He would have applauded. Yes, he would have. He was quite a fellow really. He could be brouqht around--thouqh there was a certain stiffness to him. You know, there's somethinq in a man of wantinq somethinq .just too much, or feelinq that.... But he was a man who would listen to your arguments. Would he? Yes, he would. Would qive you due process? Yes, he would give you due process--he surely would. Would he arque with you about the facts?

Page  227227 He might if he didn't agree with you--he was honest, frank, and straightforward. would. He would certainly do that. He'd let you present your side of the case--he sure That's qood. Bob would. He might not agree with you, and you might not agree with him, but he'd let you present your side of the case. do that. He certainly would Sometimes a hard wrestlinq match is qood. Of course it is--sure. But .you alwa.ys like the notion that when .you leave the room somehow some- thinq of what you've had to say is restinq in the mind of the other fellow. That's right. You know--the old clipper ships, that fiqure that used to hanq out in front? Well, sometimes I used to think that Senator Taft was prett.y much like that fiqure, and no matter what the wind, rain, and tide did, he was still riqht there. You didn't qet much salt on him, thouqh he did turn color with aqe. That's about all. But whether you reached him, or not--but you say he did listen which is qood. Ih - He sure did. d occasion to come down and talk with him alonq with a qroup of ser- vicemen on the question of the G.I. Bill--we were qoinq to school, wanted to qo to school, but at the time our fami1.y life was somethinq else. We

Page  228228 wanted him to raise the ceilinq of our earninq capacitv since we thouqht, "What the hell! We could earn a few dollars at niqht," but talkinq to him was like talkinq to a wall. It was maddeninq. I used to think I could be ver.v persuasive--well, my kids were chirpinq behind me. Your situation was different. He wanted to go back to what he called ruqqed individualism. We knew that wasn't the answer. We wanted a marriaqe between a certain amount of indi- vidualism and the G.I. Bill which was enablinq us to study in ways which, left to our own devices, probably we never would have. It was a tandem ef- fort we were interested in. It wasn't that we didn't want to work. We wanted to--sure, but we couldnlt reach him. Couldn't make any impression on him. No, and there was a certain ethereal quality to his replies. He belonged to a different school of thought. That was it. He be- He did indeed. He belonged to longed to a different school of thought. the old Republican school of thought, to be frank about it. It was .iust like sayinq to us, "When my mind is closed, it's closed!" It was a horrible experience. I don't know, or can't remember, why it was that he was so instrumental, or why we had to go to him. He was on the Senate Finance Committee that handled that legislation. That's why. He may well have been the ranking Republican on that committee at

Page  229229 that time. I'm not sure about that--I'd have to check the record on that, but certainly there was no one on that committee who was more influential than Bob Taft was. He was a very key figure in that situation. It11 sa.y he was. I've alwa.ys remembered that, and I've always wanted to check my visceral reaction to him with someone else who had to deal with him at arm's lenqth. I was never convinced that he really listened to us. That's harsh for me to say because I had an interest. You figured that his mind was closed, and he didn't open the door for you. It was just a question of "Here's ten minutes of my valuable time," and in almost every instance when you lose an arqument like this--first you think of what you're qoinq to say, and then .you actually qet the chance to say it, and then the winninq arqument is when you walk away. That's right--that is true. It was a hell of a qood experience, but we came up zero. We didn't have enouqh orqanization. Well, that isn't true--we had a few stem-winders. You didn't get in the front door, did you? Not really. I guess Bennett Clark who authored that bill--1 guess he was gone by the time. I think Bennett was defeated in 1946. I think the division in the Senate was close.

Page  230 230 Sure--very close. Of course, it might have been during the time of what we know of as the 80th Congress which came in really in 1947. Of course, that's what it was--he was the rankinq member. 1947--he used that famous arqument in the 1948 pre-campaiqn period; narnelv, that families should eat less. What a horrible thins for him to sav! You should have heard my family chirp away at that. 1'11 bet they did. They couldn't see that argument, could they? No. He was a real stone to make that kind of comment. That's right--that's true. But you say he could be reasonable. Yes, he could be. Now and then he could be just as you say; adamant, absolutely like Gibralter. there? How many hundreds of years has Gibralter been Quite a few, and I think it's qoinq to sta.y there a while too. How about next Wednesday? Do you think I could see you next Wednesdal? I think so--yes, sure. Let me come back and we'll talk about hospital leqislation--the refine- ments.

Page  231231 Senate Office Buildinq, Wednesday, April 26, 1967. The last time we talked somewhat about Hill-Burton. I want to qo back a little bit. All right. The Second World War was aqain a way in which enerqies were oalvanized--they were needed, and means are found to harness enerqies both from the point of view of buildinq hardware and, even more important, protection from the un- known in the wa.y of disease. The National Research Council which is not a creature of the Conqress, but of a Presidential Executive Order, had been in an advisory relation to and had done some qood work, especia1l.y with the Arm.y and the Navy, but mostly the Army, I believe. Problems there are a little different, but with the advent of war brand new aqencies were cre- ated just for that purpose--the war, the Office of Scientific Research and Development. Do you remember the thinkinq that went into the wa.y in which this orqanization for victory with respect to scientific research was floated? Well--give me a cue. We needed it. Oh yes, we had to have it. We were sendinq boys somewhere, and we didn't know the nature of the prob- lems they were qoinq to confront. We sent them all around the world.

Page  232232 Riqht, and we had to find the experts, or at least those who were thinkinq scientifical1.p-laboratory men. In that connection we had brought into being a laboratory that I was very much interested in and that was the William C. Gorgas Laboratory down in Panama. I remember making a speech on the floor of the House on the leg- islation to bring that laboratory into being, but we really didn't appreci- ate that laboratory until World War 11, until we had our boys all over the Pacific and everywhere else. that laboratory were helpful insofar as taking care of the health and wel- fare of our boys who were scattered all over the face of the earth. At the time we passed that bill--1 guess all the way back--it must have been about 1926, 1927, maybe 1928, something like that, we weren't thinking of having our boys out in the far islands of the Pacific, or anything of that kind. You see, you were in World War 11. as Woodrow Wilson said was "the war to end wars." We found that a lot of things we'd done in I was in World War I, and World War I, Don't you see? Yes, indeed. And his great hope, as you know, was the League of Nations, that we might establish that League of Nations to bring nations together and get them around the table as you earlier suggested this morning and let them resolve their disputes and bring about a consensus, put an end to this thing of human slaughter in war, destruction of cities and property and all that business, but gosh .... What's interestinq, I think, is the Minutemen who stood at Lexington--you have them in 1941 and 1942--that is, you have people who are prepared at

Page  233universities with laboratories that are functionins. All durinq the twen- ties and the thirties, for the most part, they wanted funds to carry on their work. Suddenly .you need them. Yes, suddenly you need them. And vou can float support throuqh an aqenc.y like the Army Epidemioloqical Board. - That's right. It's a sort of a holdinq structure--medicall.y oriented with reference to troops, and therefore sustainable because it's necessar.y for defense--our boys. Can you imaqine the letters from mothers you'd qet if you didn't have this kind of support! You're right. They'd hop up and down, and that's not the only thins that was done under OSRD--the Manhattan Project--way out thinqs. You saw in the paper last night, I guess, the honor given posthumously to Robert Oppenheimer. A qreat man. A great man. Philosophically a qreat man--a very sensitive fellow too. And yet at one time he really stood in what we might call national disgrace.

Page  234234 I never thouqht so. A lot of people didn't think so, but the President of the United States, the chosen leader, the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces had put this wall around him. I read that record, and the attorne.v, Robb is his name, a damn qood attor- ney, but I thouqht he pressed wa.v be.yond what he had to really say, but-- you know, that has to do, in part, with certain conflicts in personality which have never really seen the liqht--you know. Just think of a fellow like Aaron Burr killing a man like Alexander Hamilton. Think of shooting Alexander Hamilton who wasn't but forty-two years of age. Wasn't that about it? Brilliant too. Brilliant. You know, I commented the other day, I think, that it was generally understood that Alexander Hamilton wrote Washington's Farewell Address which we read on the 22nd day of February every year over here in the Senate. He was a brilliant man. But once you have this research momentum going, Senator Pepper, I believe it is, on a subcommittee in 1944, holds some hearings on what to do to sus- tain research in a peacetime atmosphere. I wondered--you know, you have to have it. What do you do in the future? I don't know whether it was tied in with the thinking about Hill-Burton also. For instance, if you have hospitals, you have to have more doctors, and to have more doctors, to really train them, you have to have more with which to train them. It

Page  235235 all seems to be tied toqether. That's true. But the Office of Scientific Research and Development was cominq to an ar- bitrary end. It was indeed. It still had certain qrants which they had floated--particularly in syphi- lis, malaria, penicillin studies, and the question was what to do with them, where to lodqe them, where to find a home for these continuinq studies, and somehow or other the Office of Naval Research came out of almost nowhere. That's right. And latched on to some of them, and the Public Health Service took the peni- cillin-syphilis studies. Then the price of penicillin fell. Down she went--that's right. I don't remember the price, but I do re- member how darn hard it was to get it in the beginning. You see, they were being bombed over there in London. They couldntt make it over there in Eng- land. They came over here to an animal laboratory, a veterinary laboratory I guess we'd call it, of the Department of Agriculture out there in Peoria, Illinois, to produce that penicillin. Yes, and they found ways to produce it in quantity. In quantity--exactly. Well, that's one of the demands that wartime made.

Page  236236 Oh sure. You know, there's a book called Maqic Gold. Have you seen it? That tells the story about boys who had been brought home from the is- lands in the Pacific, the war out there, shot, wounded, infections, that kind of thing, and how they had been hoping, hoping, just hoping for some relief, and finally this young major in the Army, Major Champ Lyons, ar- rived with this penicillin. That was the answer. It replaced a qrimace with a smile, didn't it? You're darn right--it did indeed--yes. Champ Lyons I mentioned him-- he was a cousin of mine, and afterwards he did so much to build up the Uni- versity of Alabama Medical Center there in Birmingham which if you check on it, you'll find that it is a mighty good center today. You know, it didn't get started until after World War 11. You see, we had the old Medi- cal College of Alabama down in Mobile brought into being under the leader- ship and inspiration of Carlos Finley, and it was a four year medical col- lege, and by the way, Finley was one of the first men to declare that the mosquito was the vector of yellow fever. Well, then the Board of Trustees of the University along about--oh, way back about 1918, or 1919, back in there, and I'm not sure of the date exactly--they moved it to the Tusca- loosa campus, the University campus, and reduced it from four years to two years. Well, two years isn't a medical school, as you and I know. Not at all. You don't get any of the clinical teaching which is absolutely essen- tial. Then thankfully, after World War 11, they decided to move it on up to Birmingham and restore it to a four years school, turn it into this

Page  237237 medical center which we have been building there ever since then and which we have today. A two year school isn't a medical school. When you think about it today--the average student today has to have his four year study for a B.A. Then he has to have his four years of medicine, then two years of internship and then another year of residency--you see, instead of two years he has to have about seven years. At least. At least seven years, but I suppose that Board of Trustees, and there were some very fine men on there, but I guess they didn't understand. They didn't get the picture. The idea of moving that school to Tuscaloosa and cutting it down to a two year school! Well, in anv event, it took a lot of couraqe to make that decision. Yes, it took courage to make that decision. TheV may have confronted other problems. I suppose they thought in terms of the costs--you know, you don't run a medical school on a wish. You have to have the money. You have to have the money. I think I can justifv certain aqencies runninq into debt all the time, and one of them is a library anywhere because you have to have it. Another is the medical school because you need the doctors. That's right. It doesn't make any difference what the expenses are really.

Page  238238 The truth of the business is that we're paying a price today all over the United States for the fact that we haven't in the past turned out enough doc tors. Rish t . They tell us that we have acquired more medical knowledge in the last twenty-five years than in all the centuries, the thousand years before that, but we haven't got the personnel that we need--whether it be doctors, nurses, or what we call paramedical personnel, technicians. It's hard. It sure is hard. It's like savinq, "We can't do this because we don't have that." We have to do this anyway, hopeful that we'll qet this other personnel. Yes, get that personnel. The knowledqe is important. Then you see, back in that day and time--way back in the old days the doctor had his little satchel with his stethoscope in there, and that's about all he had. It was only after that that we began really to develop radiology, all this about testing the blood and all that business. Sure. Give him a broader vision of what he's doinq. You're riqht about the satchel. That was rather limited medicine. Of course it was. You can hear a fellow's heartbeat, but with that

Page  239239 satchel you had no way to examine that blood, or that urine, or make that electrocardiogram of that heart. Is that right? Riqht, but think--you not onlv needed a whole new qeneration of doctors trained in much wider areas, but take some of the older doctors who had a thirty year old physio1oq.v course. on t0da.v. The.y must be lost with all that's qoing Yes, they must be lost with all that's going on today. Thev're rocks where thev are. That is certainly true. I don't know what the heck was in the air, and you were certainly busy at the termination of the war on a number of committees, so I don't know wheth- er you confronted the question as to whether we should float a National Sci- ence Foundation approach to basic research, or whether we should capitalize on those that had grown up like the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, or the Army Medical Colleqe here, or the Public Health Service which had the Hyqienic Laboratory and its successor institutes, or the Office of Naval Research--whether to work throuqh those agencies in order to qet some pre- cedents established as to how thinqs miqht go in peacetime rather than to float it wholly new throuqh a National Science Foundation. I qather from the correspondence that I've read in your files that those who were in fa- vor of the National Science Foundation approach didn't particularly think that political issues should bother them. They just didn't understand that when you vote ten dollars, it's a political issue. That's right.

Page  240240 That may have been a deterrent in floatinq the National Science Foundation-- I don't know. I don't believe that it was bottled up so much in the Senate as it was in the House--Percy Priest. No, it was not. The author of the National Science Foundation legis- lation was my good, sweet friend, Senator Elbert Thomas of Utah. By the way, at one time he had been a Mormon missionary to Japan; in fact, during the war what we now know as the Voice of America--1 don't know whether it had that title at that time, but anyway, that same agency used him quite a bit to make talks to be broadcast to Japan, and he was a strong advocate of the establishment of the National Science Foundation, and when we finally passed the bill, he felt tremendously gratified. He felt really that we had moved properly, so to speak, into the scientific age. While I read the papers I have the feelinq that for whatever reason, the precedents with respect to qrants, how the.y would operate, the relationship between medical affairs and medical research had already been kind of si- phoned off, placed in the Public Health Service, the Arm.y Medical Department. That's right--they had been. That's true. You see, of course, we'd already moved into this scientific age really. We needed it. We had to have it. We couldn't wait for the National Science Founda- tion to get that nuclear bomb. We'd still be waitinq. We had to get that to get those Japanese out of the war. After we

Page  241241 knocked Hitler and Mussolini out--1 say "we" , but we didn't knock Mussolini out. He got hung by his own, as you know, but after we got them out, why then we had this Japanese problem on our hands, and if we hadn't had those bombs, I don't know how long that war might have gone on. It was a different kind of fanaticism. Yes. Just think how long that war in Korea went on. Think how long it went on. It's hard to teach some people. That's right. Just think how long this war is going on now in Viet Nam. Yes. and medical supplies at the same time. In addition to the bombinq I wish they'd bomb with food, clothinq, You've got a thought there, my friend. It's a balanced kind of judqment. I don't know that it would mitiqate aqainst our own critics--and qee, we've qot a lot of critics. That's all riqht. I understand wh.y they take the positions they do. It might have quite an effect on those people up there in North Viet Nam. They might say, "After all, these people aren't what they've been re- presented to be." Rinht--especiallv the civilian population. That's what I'm talking about--sure.

Page  242242 If we can send waves of bombs aqainst somethinq, whv not trv waves of bombs aqainst the civilian population of food, clothinq, and medical supplies? Leaflets aren't any qood any more. There was a time when they miqht have been. - Might have been, but not now. Not anv more. They've passed out so far as any usefulness is concerned. Anv effort to draw at least some reservations--not a wedqe, but a reserva- tion. - There's no question there. Look, mothers--you know, feed my boy, my babies. I don't want to make it sound callous, but a balanced approach miqht be more useful. Say, you've got a thought there. Has anybody ever suggested that? I don't know whether an.vbody has suqqested it or not. This isn't novel with me. I heard this from Mr. Kurtz up there at the National Librar.y of Medi- cine. He was talkinq one da.y, and it made sense to me--you know, we're not all arrows. I understand. We're not all arrows. It's certainly something to think about--I'11 tell you that. The mere thouqht of it--it miqht even please the New York Times.

Page  243243 In other words, you'd rather give them food and clothes than give them the lives of American boys. I know that while we're there, we're qoinq to have to hit kev mi1itar.v tar- gets and I'm hopeful that our position is as qood as it is alleqed to be. I don't know about that. We hope so anyway. But when we draw closer to the civilian populations with one wave of bombs, it seems to me we could qo over the followinq day and shed somethinq else than bombs. You've got a thought there. I don't know how stronq Ho Chi Minh is with mothers, children. How much real support he has. I have no wa.v of knowing. We have no way of knowing that today. Who did you say you heard make that suggestion? Mr. Kurtz who is public relations officer, or an assistant to Dr. Cummings at the National Library of Medicine. field from research to the current war, but that's what happens with conver- sation. But I can see-you know, when you have this instrument in being, all these scientists workinq, organized for a given purpose, I don't know whether the.v make noise for its continuity in peacetime or not. I have seen nothinq of this kind in correspondence, certainly in .your files, with scien- Well, itts taken us a little far a-

Page  244244 tists sayinq, "Do I now qo back to what I had before"--which was a small qrant, let's say, from some national foundation for a specific job, or some pharmaceutical house--"or can I really set into this and can I stav in it as I did durinq the war?" I don't know whether vou heard this or not. In any event, what comes out is an effort to sustain this onqoinq interest in basic thinqs--and ultimatelv applicable thinqs--in the field of medicine. You have the whole proliferation of the institutes as structures in 1946, 1947, and 1948. I quess everVbody came here who had an interest, an insti- tute for thumbs, whatever, and the question was do you or don't you have a plan? You've qot to qo and sustain that kind of influence which is qood. The Veterans Administration did some marvelous thinqs toward the end of the war throuqh--oh, for a period of time, constructinq new hospitals in centers. They did. Do you remember that? Sure. I told you the other day that before World War I1 your Veterans Hospitals really weren't anything but old soldiers' homes. They weren't anything but old soldiers' homes, and then we brought in as medical direc- tor--well, right before Paul Magnuson. He did a wonderful job building these new hospitals and converting the old ones into Hospitals--not just old soldiers' homes. Right, but this is almost like a stalking-horse in the sense that they were veterans, and no one is going to quarrel with that--we want the best--you know, we were on that kind of wave, not only in the design of hospitals, but the location, site, how it should be equipped, research programs in

Page  245245 tuberculosis and other thinqs, and it seemed like a packaqe for veterans where you could work out the details that come later in other fields--like the public. That's right. We can afford to invest--vou know. in fellows who come back, some protec- tion--like the whole rehabilitation proqram. It looms as an idea and a need, but all durinq the war it was there, and by the war's end it had be- hind it--you know, an accredited past. Put it that way. I think before you qet throuqh, many of the controversial areas like health insurance come up first with veterans and the Army. That's right. Say [to John Ed Campbell who entered the room] who was our first medical director, came here before Paul Magnuson who did so much to convert hospitals and build these new hospitals? I don't remember his name. I remember Paul Maqnuson as a fruitful 9u.y. Paul did a grand job. A stem-winder. But his predecessor [Paul Hawley] did an awful fine job too. Paul and his predecessor were the two men who did this job of building hospitals and making soldiers' homes into hospitals. They beqan to attract--what is it, ,you build a better mouse trap .... That's right, and the world will come to you.

Page  246246 That's riqht. And thev beqan to attract vounqer men, excitinq minds, and beqan to develop a research proqram which would keep them qoinq. That's a line which no one is qoinq to quarrel with. You can float ideas with refer- ence to veterans and the Army personnel where most of the fellows come out of civilian life, as most of the fellows did, more easilv than vou can float an idea for civilians. Let that run around for a while, and it pays off. Then you qive the critics somethinq that they have to be for. Campbell] [John Ed Let me shut this off. It was 1947--right in that period. It might even go to 1948--11m not sure. Let's see. This fellow was quite a man, by golly, and I was trying to think of his name. It was nearly twenty years ago. He started this thing of converting these soldiers' homes, building new veterans hospitals, a lot of them, and then taking the old ones and making them hospitals in- stead of old soldiers' homes--lay around all day and finally die. The whole notion of sayinq, "Our hospital ouqht not to be out here. There's nothinq out there. Brinq it over here next to the University. Let them set the benefit." Take right there in Alabama--very shortly after the war we built a fine Veterans Hospital, and do you know where we put it--right there at the University of Alabama Medical School. That makes sense. Sure, it does indeed. Look what you can call on.

Page  247That's right--look what you can call on. You can't do it out in the middle of acre lot forty. That's right. That maV be nice in terms of the 1920fs, but not in terms of the fifties, or sixties. Not now. I told you the other day when you were here how a year ago last June, or July, I went to Birmingham to speak at the first tie-in of research facilities of the Veterans Administration and the research facili- ties of the University of Alabama Medical Center. We built a bridge across the street to tie-in these research facilities--you see, of the Veterans Administration and the University of Alabama Medical Center Research Facil- ities. The first time we'd done that. We put our Veterans Hospital, just as we did in Birmingham, right there at the medical center, but we didn't have that bridge, so that if it was raining, or cold, you just couldn't go across there and just wear that white coat you had on--tied them in to- gether. That was two years ago this June, I think it was. But to me concern with veterans was the spur that came out of the war and leads into peacetime. If .you can develop with reference to veterans, you can demonstrate the fantastic needs for civilians also--Survey and Construc- tion Act. Planninq is not the road to chaos--this kind of thinq. You cre- ate a network. Then you face the problem of where you're going to get the personnel, and that emerqes too. Yes, that emerges too.

Page  248248 But the thins that comes first is the 80th Conqress. That s right. That's like standinq still for a while--not exactly standinq still. We'll have to talk next time about Marion Folsom, an interestinq fellow. An able fellow. Oh boy, He's .just about the liqht in the Eisenhower cabinet I would agree with you thoroughly on that. But even he was somewhat timid, but nonetheless forward. Yes, he was as forward as you could be in the Eisenhower cabinet-- much more forward than that gentle lady from Texas. Oh--well, that almost washed away. Washed away--she didn't do anything to stand up. There wasn't any- thing there. Nulla bona--there are no qoods. You leave a pile of leaves, and if the garbage man doesn't take them away, the rain will finally wash them away. It sure will. John Ed Campbell: 1948 is as far back as this qoes. Wait one minute here. Well, that's all right. I was trying to think

Page  249249 of the name of the medical director of the Veterans Administration right before Paul Magnuson. They were the two men Johnny, who did so much to make our--wait a minute. Let me see here. I'm not talking about the Ad- ministrative Director. I'm talking about the medical man. The chief Medi- cal Director was Dr. Paul Magnuson at that time. What I was trying to do was find out who was back there about 1946, Paul Magnuson's predecessor. [Paul Hawley] This is 1948--that's nearly twenty years ago. out now for twenty years. Just get me his name as a matter of interest be- cause he did an awfully good job, and then Paul came along and carried on and did a wonderful job too. Paul lives here in Washington--you know. He was a great orthopedic surgeon out there in Chicago. He's been He had a lot of ideas. Paul was quite a man, 1'11 tell you. Even in the correspondence about the Murray-Waqner-Dinqle Bill--he writes a letter in which he indicates the wa.v in which you can set the substance and not suffer the flack. Did you ever read his book, Rinq the Niqht Door Bell? Yes. - Say, John, that fellow who did such a good job--not to take any credit away from Paul who did such a wonderful job too, but those two fellows-- they just went right on with that thing. It made a difference. I should say that it did make a difference. It sure did.

Page  250250 It stimulated the other people, people in the Public Health Service-you know, how can we qet it to set up and walk? Paul did a wonderful job, but his predecessor started it. Both of them did a beautiful job. Did you ever know Paul? Just throuqh that book. He was quite a fellow, by golly, and I have a great admiration for him. He's a fellow who knew how to swim throuqh the shark infested waters too. Yes, he did. Damn if he didn't! He had guts and intestinal fortitude. I remember one day he came up before my committee and made a statement that had a lot of whack in it, and when the meeting was over with I called him to one side, and I said, "Listen here, Doctor, I think what you said was true, but I believe that as a matter of good policy and diplomacy, I ought not to have that statement in the record. We'll take it out if it's all right with you." He said, "If you feel that way about it, why take it out." Paul was a two-fisted.. . . He was a hammer. Yes--he was a hammer. "Let me out on the track and qet out of m.y way! Here we come." That's right. He was a hammer.

Page  251251 Senate Office Buildinq, Tuesday, May 9, 1967. We qot Hill-Burton pretty well established. Then we ran into the 80th Conqress which sort of threw us for a while. That was prett.v quick1.y corrected thouqh. Only two years. They didn't stay there long! They had some novel ideas--that 80th Conqress. I wonder cominq from Ala- bama--do you remember much about the Commodity Credit Corporation? This was the warehouses for qrain. It certainly played a part in that 1948 election. It did. I don't remember too much about it, but certainly that period in our history we weren't producing too much grain down in Alabama. As you know, the midwest and the western states are the big grain section--Iowa, Minnesota, the Dakotas--all out there. We don't produce so much grain down home. Most of out products even today are cotton, poultry, peanuts, soy beans, vegetables, but we don't produce any wheat at all hardly, so we did- n't get into that too much. I was thinkinq of it from the point of view of the cattle industrv that was developinq in Alabama. It has--that cattle industry has developed quite a bit in the last twenty years. It has developed a whole lot. Boy, you'd be surprised how much that cattle industry has developed down there. Where you used to see row after row of cotton, now you see the bulls and the heifers. That cat- tle industry has developed to beat the band--it sure has. There's no doubt

Page  252252 about that. Thev use feed qrains, brans and so on. They do. Power and fertilizer, and I just wonde d wheti- c there was any--we was a silly thins to do--the 80th Conqress, to emasculate that Commodity Credit Corporation. It was indeed. I don't know who it was--Brannon and I quess President Truman played that sonq out in the Midwest. They did. That's what swung that line behind. I think that was as great a factor in the election of Harry Truman as anything else--yes. cause, as you say, although we don't raise much grain, we do raise a lot of cattle down there. That's one of our big products down there today-- cattle. We're big in cattle now. Be- When we talked before about the need for fertilizer, here's the need for qrain and I wondered whether that storaqe, or the emasculation of storaqe facilities--probably it wasn't on lonq enouqh to have an effect, if any. They stopped buildinq elevators. They just stopped, as you say. It was a silly idea. It was indeed. Yes, it was.

Page  253253 That was an odd period an.vwa.v. It certainly was. Thev had the Conqress for two years. They elected the Congress in 1946. It came in January of 1947 and stayed into January, 1949--just a two year period. I don't know who it was that shifted the burden. I remember that speech that President Truman made in the wee hours of the morninn. It was kind of a scrappy thins when thinqs didn't look so briqht. Thev certainly didn't look so briqht to him; in fact, it was raining. He really upset the pollsters--all the prophets. By the way, you saw yesterday that it was his eighty-third birthday. He's a qreat old fellow. Yes, he is. He called that special session and put the burden on the Republicans from the pork chop point of view. He sure did. Roy! That kind of pulled the ruq out from under Tom Dewe.y. It did, didn't it. It sure did, by golly, when he called that special session. I kind of feel--I don't know why this is so, but the Republican Part.v in

Page  254254 the Conqress has been pretty much draqqinq its heels--and I don't mean any disrespect to them-- I know. You know, into the twentieth century, and that's a heck of a burden for an.v presidential nominee to carry. Yes. It was horrible. They didn't make any record for him to run on. They didn't do anything for him to go out and brag about. They didn't make any record for him to claim victory on--no record. Just spoilers. Just marking time--doing nothing. But this Commodity Credit Corporation. Just the Commodity Credit Corporation--that's exactly right. That twisted the old eaqle's tail for sure. It really did. I suppose Hill-Burton after a while, once it was floated and had opportunity to fiqht its way--the survey aspects of it took some time. That took some time--yes, it did. I would assume that members of both houses understood what was in the air

Page  255255 so far as Hill-Burton was concerned because it's had surprisinqly qood sup- port all alonq. It has. When new amendments were concerned, or extensions were concerned. You see, the act was called the Survey and Construction Act, and it required that before you made any allocation of funds, a state had to make a survey of the hospital needs in the state and submit its plans. It went on the basis of a master plan for the state. That's right. Even thouqh in time, as thinqs chanqed, repair, restoration, almost elimina- tion of some parts of a plan--it was a loose qrowinq thins to keep it alive. That's right. Just a little thins like ttmodernizationlt--the meaninq that you can qive to that word, and these refinements, I think, have come up more recently-1966, I think. That's right. You're correct. You've read your history, haven't you? Well, I like leqislation that is sufficient1.y loose so that one aqe can fill it with meaninq in terms of its time, and it's still qood twenty years later when you can fill the words with new meaninq and new idea. To meet the new situation.

Page  256256 Look at our Constitution-there aren't manv words that baffle. There are some, but itts an enablinq act. It enables us to function. Right--carry on and meet the new situations. Riqht. We have to patch it once in a while, but that's expected. Take the Public Health Act itself--vou know, when they made the codification in 1944--puttinq all those thinqs toqether. Yes, put it together. Somebodv did that verv nice1.v because it's not as precise, say, as the Na- tional Science Foundation Act which was like a straitjacket. I didn't like that piece of leqislation, but the Public Health Service Act had a kind of looseness to it, and I don't mean that in a bad sense. I know. Words can have different meaninqs qiven different times and circumstances. That's correct. And that sort of thins is in Hill-Burton. It just qrew, and it qrows. Yes, it just grows. And I suppose so far as opposition to it is concerned--that's over. It's now recoqnized as a part of America--we can invest in health facilities. I think that's true. It's interestinq to find a non-controversial area.

Page  257That's true too. Come alonq to about 1954, and there's a chanqe in the scene. The Republi- cans come in with the presidency. I was lookinq at President Eisenhower's state of the union messaqe. He had some pretty forthriqht thinqs to say about health and health leqislation--.just words. I remember in that first budget he sent up how he slashed the Hill- Burton funds. What a fight we had to try to get those funds up a little bit--it was tough, awful tough, and all during his administration we had a terrific fight getting these National Institutes of Health funds up--you see. Sure, they had reached the position where they had consolidated the Insti- tutes, and it was time to move. Time to move--right. Eisenhower, with all kindness for him--he had that attack of ileitis, he had an attack--how many heart attacks did he have? He had two heart attacks, didn't he? Just about. Just about two heart attacks. He's in Walter Reed Hospital today, as you know. It's interesting how idea develops. An old soldier friend of his, General Mark Clark wrote him about getting some support, or to use the President to sustain the Heart Association in its campaign for funds. I understand Pres- ident Eisenhower not wanting any part of that, to become a household word, a symbol, but in the exchanqe of letters the question was raised as to

Page  258258 whether we shouldn't forqet about fund raisinq and go in for more research. The letter I quess went from the White House to Marion Folsom out to NIH, and they qot a hand in how to answer that letter, and that's what ultirnatelx led to the Bavne-Jones Report to assess the needs. It is an interestinq re- port. Yes, it is. Althouqh nerhaps on the conservative side in terms of support. It was a conservative document. But interesting. Verv--I think Folsom was shaken somewhere. Certain1.v--well, I don't know whether he was in step, or not, with President Eisenhower, but he has a backqround of beinq interested in Social Security Leqislation, and he cer- p- ward lookinq enterprise. Mr. Eastman certainly had a mind and paid atten- tion to his employees, a health plan. I think Marion Folsom was forward looking. There's no doubt about that. I'm sure he had his problems with Mr. Sherman Adams. That was the problem. I'm quite sure that was the problem. I can't believe that the Bureau of the Budqet was very happy with Marion Folsom. No, I don't imagine so. I wouldn't think so either. They had--you know, double locks.

Page  259259 Oh yes--they were going to hold down these expenses, hold down the ex- penditure of money. I'm like you. I can't imagine that the Bureau of the Budget was very happy with Marion Folsom. I wouldn't think so--no. It's a little difficult to answer a man who takes part in the development of an idea, that we're qoinq to hold thinqs down. That qeneralization .iust isn't warranted really when you can expose a need. That's the Bayne-Jones Study. That's right. But because it was, I think, a part of the administration, and somewhere alonq in here Conqress qets back in the Democrat side, and this brinqs in a fellow I would like you to talk about whom I found to be a fascinating fellow. Who's that? Beau Jones. Oh yes--Beau is quite a boy. You know what he's doing now, don't you? He's head of some foundation. Yes, he's head of the Woodruff Foundation, and you know where the Woodruff Foundation got its money? Coca Cola. Coca Cola. Yes, Coca Cola, and here you can go now anywhere, and you can buy Coca Cola. Beau is a fascinating fellow. I set up in 1959, I think--1 guess it

Page  260260 was--a committee to advise us on this matter of medical research when we were having so much darn trouble getting the Eisenhower Administration to go along. I named Beau Jones as the chairman, and I had men on there like.. . . [The phone rang]. Excuse me half a second. Beau Jones was the chairman, and I had men like A1 Blalock of Johns Hopkins--you remember that he and Helen Taussig gave us the blue baby oper- ation. We had General Sarnoff of the Radio Corporation of America. We had some very fine people on there, and they gave us a very fine report. We needed that report at that time because we were meeting so much opposition on the part of, as you say, the Bureau of the Budget, and I'm sure back of it was Mr. Sherman Adams. He was pretty well running things, as I said be- fore, on the home front, and that commission with Beau Jones as chairman did an awful good job. Then you may recall when the Democrats came in-- Jack Kennedy came in in 1961--Beau Jones was brought up here to be Assis- tant Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare on Health and Science, and he stayed here for several years--two or three years ago he left to go back to be head of the Woodruff Foundation. He's quite a fine man. He had marvelous clarity. Oh yes--a fine, wonderful man, a very outstanding man. A lawver. He had been there at Emory University--you know. He set up their medical proqram.

Page  261261 He did indeed. I hated very much to see him leave here, but I recog- nized that there was an opportunity for service there, and there is of course. That foundation--1 don't know how much money they have. I don't know how much Coca Cola people drink around the world, but back in 1951, when I was in the Middle East, in places like Lebanon, Syria, places like that, Jordan, you could get Coca Cola right out there just as well as you could right here in Washington, D. C. It's bound to be a very affluent foundation, and Beau Jones was an ideal man for that job, an ideal man. You know, he had--well, listeninq to him he had that sense of discipline, but there was an awful lot of fire in that be1l.y. Oh yes. Oh - boy! He's a man of idea That Beau Jones is quite a man--I'11 tell you. Was this because you had to meet the administration's report--the Bayne- Jones Report? I think Conqress had chanqed hands. Oh yes, we had control by then. It had changed hands. We had the Eisenhower Administration, and we had the Bureau of the Budget which op- posed us. For that matter--the whole climate of what was his name?--Secretary Humphrey. Oh yes. He was almost somethinq out of the late nineteenth century.

Page  262262 Certainly--1 don't suppose outside of Sherman Adams any man had more influence with President Eisenhower than Humphrey did. Even disaqreed with him publicly--I don't see how he remained in office. He sure did, by golly, so we had operators in the Bureau of the Budget and Sherman Adams--all that school of thought--see, so we set up this--well, you couldn't find a higher class commission than we had. No, vou couldn't. A man like Sarnoff on there, A1 Blalock, Beau Jones. I think Mike DeBake,y was on there too. Yes, Mike was on there--oh, yes, we had Mike on there. These were men who were pressinq. Men like that made it possible for us to say that in the last twenty- five years we've acquired more medical knowledge than all the centuries be- fore. Think of that. I think when you look at the Eisenhower Administration most of the expendi- tures were held down with the exception of health, and Folsom somehow, some- way was able to.... Folsom did the best he could, I think. He did the best he could. His problem was Humphrey, the Bureau of the Budget, and Sherman Adams, but I think Marion Folsom did the best he could. He had difficultv explaininq, I suppose, back at headquarters why Conqress

Page  263263 was steppinq on his heels. I'm sure that's true. The need was there for both sides to support, and you just can't salt that away. I'm sure he had his problems--I'm sure he did. No doubt about that. But. as vou sav, Secretary Humnhrey had qreat influence--well, it was those turkey shoots. That's right. I don't know what they had to do with economics, but they were very persua- sive. - They were indeed. Humphrev was a qood man, but from the point of view of a nation like this which has to qrow--it can't stand still ever. It .just has to qrow, but when that kind of thinkinq qains currency--it*s just terrible, and I think in every instance expenditures were cut back with the exception of support out there at NIH and that, I quess, took maybe a thirty percent leap. It did. We went forward. And then thereafter it didn't make too much difference what the Bureau of the Budqet said. There was pressure and interest and votes in the Conqress. That s right.

Page  264264 By this time I would suspect that the various groups in our societv were articulate about the need too--you know, wartime and all the advances. "What are we qoinq to do, qo back to the thirties--never! We're qoinq to do somethinq!" Sure, and you had a plan. Talking about that--here's an address of a Dr. Hartig--you know Hartig. I had it marked here. No, wait a minute! That's the address in full, but I can get it better here. This is from Dr. Hartigts address to the Ameri- can Physical Society delivered on the 26th of April--very recent. Here's a very significant statement to me: The scientific community is going to have to learn to articulate its hopes, to describe the opportunities which are before us for practical advance, to express the excitement of the new intellec- tual thrust, but to do these in terms which the American people, who are expected to pay the bill, can generally understand and have faith in. There is no alternative. Isn't that well expressed? It sure is. We haven't had enough of that, to tell you the honest truth. You take what's been done at the NIH. The average man on the street--he wouldn't know. He miqht share the benefit, but he wouldn't.... He might share the benefit, but he wouldn't know. There is an educational area that ouqht to be exploited. Ought to be exploited--sure. The difficulty is that some of the problems are qettinq so damn complex

Page  265265 that they mav have run somewhat beyond our capacity at the moment. That may be true too. We need a Pasteur to break throuqh some of these rouqh problems. That's true. There mav be one out there. It's hard to c0nve.v in words the kind'of ex- citement that a scientist has when he looks for one thinq and finds some- thinq wholly different that's relevant--you know. That's true. It's not a, b, c. d. No, it isn't a, b, c, d. It isn't the kind of thing that you put up on a billboard out in Iowa. Yes. and this is where the public loses some of the excitement in its own investment. How to convey a risk, or a qamble which this is. What the devil--people buv stocks and bonds, and the.v don't know any more. They just lose their eyesiqht readinq the paper findinq out where the.y stand, and I quess in some ways in the medical sciences and advances, it's pretty much the same thinq. About the same thing--it is indeed. We have broadened the base--we have at least the opportunit.v for more horses to win. We do indeed.

Page  266266 The Bureau of the Budqet in the Eisenhower period to the contrary notwith- s tan dinq. That's right. We have created a base. Almost all the way alonq even in ear1.y Hill-Burton times, the question whether there was adequate personnel, adequate staffinq, adequate physicians, and so on was a qlarinq one. Even if you had the in- stitution, somehow or other it wouldn't necessarily have a captain and a lieutenant. That's right, we still had that need for that personnel. I think that was clear even from the start, so that when the Ba.yne-Jones Report, its thinkinq in terms of medical education, medical schools, and science also, medical experimentation, as a sort of handmaiden--if you have an institution, let's fill it.. .. Yes, with competent people. Rinht which makes the thinkinq of the Eisenhower Administration a little silly. It does indeed. Doesn't it--.iust terrible, but I think qroups by that time had really or- qanized to push this alonq. Looking throuqh the files--my goodness, the number of orqanizations which spring to arms in support of somethinq like this--qosh, they're as lonq as your arm when you put the list down. I don't know--how many Joseph Listers can you find?

Page  267267 You don't find them every day, do you? No, but vou hope. Yes, you look forward with hope--you sure do. And you qive them the risk capital to develop, and Folsom understood that. He did indeed. He did understand that. Then, I suspect, that it reached a point where the institutes are in being. They can't sit on their hands. The.vlve qot to qenerate idea also--you know, they may very well have to farm out plans to interest qroups and qet their support. It's no lonqer a corner qrocery. It's not that at all. It's a biq concern with a deep investment in the future, so that they can't wait any more for new ideas to come in. They have to qenerate them. Yes, they have to generate them. That's certainly true. The President's budqet aside--he has a rinht under our Constitution, but everyone qets a whack at it too. That's true. And to place questions--that's what hearings are for--just where need is, where need lies and get answers from people who are with the problem and face it twenty-four hours a day. This is what surprises me--to come into a Senate Office, and there's a staff, and when I look into the files, my goodness, there are all kinds of problems coming from the home state, so as a Senator, I guess you have to rely on the ongoing people who have vi- sion, and certainly in the medical field the people at NIH have had vision

Page  268268 Dixon-Yates came up in that same period, and that didn't show much vision. They didn't show much vision. No, they did not. Thev hadn't learned. That's right. You know, talking about Joseph Lis-er--I don't want to get away from your subject, but to me this is one of the great things that he did. He was there at the University of Edinburgh, and he had been there previously under Dr. Syme whose daughter Agnes he married, and Agnes was his great partner, so to speak, his helpmate. He left the Professorship of Surgery there at Edinburgh to come down to London. Do you know why he did that? Because that was the center of the most bitter opposition to him. Beard the lion in his den. Yes, beard the lion in his den. That took couraqe to cut himself off from a place of security. Certainly, and I'm sure he was happy and well satisfied there at Edin- burgh. That had been his home with his wife, and he'd been there under Syme before he went down to Glasgow, and when Syme died, they called Lister back to Edinburgh. He went to London to beard the lion in his den. That's where his bitterest antagonists were. That's qood--vou know, a creative person like that has a touch of, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful wa.y, arrogance, has a dash of eqocentri- cities like self-belief, and you know, when that enqine boils, it's qot to find its release.

Page  269It sure has. It has to. Yes, it does, by golly. Success in those terms is a quiet because it's a factua 269 thinq even aqainst all the opposition. Like the Wriqht brothers. The Smithsonian In- stitution probab1.v thouqht their plane would never qet off the ground. didn't know much about aerodynamics, but the Wriqht brothers said that it would f1.v. They I may have told you this before. Do you know who was very helpful to them? A man named Alexander Graham Bell. Thev opened up a whole new aqe. I think I told you before. Do you know how Bell always spoke of him- self? He didn't speak of himself as the inventor of this telephone, or a scientist, but a teacher of the deaf--yes. You see, his mother was deaf, and it had come home to him, and when he invented the telephone, he got a prize known as the Volta Prize. He said that he was so happy to get it be- cause he could now do something for the deaf and with that money--it was five thousand dollars which doesn't sound like much today, but it was a good deal of money in that day and time--he started the Alexander Graham Bell Association for the Deaf. After that he always spoke of himself as a teacher of the deaf. That lady, Miss Helen Keller whose picture is there--he was most helpful to her. How she ever broke through I don't know.

Page  270270 Miracle. Absolutely. A qreat ladv. In the old days if you were writing the Bible and told her story, you would have said that it was a miracle. It's like--vou know, if there's passion enouqh, it's qoinq to break throuqh., If it qets said at all with an.y meaning .... It was a miracle. If Joseph Lister hadn't qone down to London, we miqht never have cauqht up to him. But if the kind of thinq in which he believed qets said at all, it qets said in the sprawlinq human mass where there is antaqonism--you know. That's right. You know, I guess we've talked about it in the past-- I'm sure we have about Semmelweiss. He insisted that after a doctor had delivered a baby, before he would go in to deliver another baby, the doctor go in and wash his hands, and they hounded that poor fellow to death. They hounded him to death. Thev didn't understand childbed fever, did the\/. They did not. Either that, or they were averse to soap and water. Makes a difference-- a simple, little thinq. It does indeed.

Page  271271 That takes a lot of couraqe--to do that sort of thinq. I think we've come to a poj.nt probab1.y where maybe the struqqle between scientific thinkinq and pre-scientific thinkinq is pretty even now. Just about--1 imagine that's about true. I don't think it's easier to set a new idea accepted. It still has to fiqht its way in the market place, but then that's our system. We may lose a lot, but experience is qained, and it's additive by the time it qets settled. Once you have an NIH in beinq, .you don't float it down the drain for want of support--you know. You don't collect a qroup of men who are imaqinative and zestful and who think and work away and then say, llWell, forqet it!" You don't. No, you don't. I'm not sure--we talked before about what was implied in the first income tax case which wasn't seen at the time, but a shift of power from New York, Morqan Stanley and their complex--you know, the Populist revolt was aqainst that sort of thinq. It swept throuqh the West, the Midwest, and went down throuqh the South--they couldn't qet any loans. Institutions with money to lend aided the development of the Ohio River, but the.y didn't care about the Alabama River. The shift in base was the income tax case. I think that's true. As you know, back in the old days the federal government's source of income was the tariff. What would that mean today? What would that mean today? I don't have any idea. That was a cumbersome piece of legislation to ar-

Page  272272 rive at anyway--the pullinq and tuqqinq that went on in that. It was no more than a collection of laws of exception. That's exactly right. It was unmanaqeable. I'm qlad that we've qotten away from that. Oh we've gotten away from that. We sure have. But that kind of thinkinq dominated the Eisenhower Administration--1 don't know what's so virtuous about balancinq the budqet, do you? know, as an idea to which wetre qoinq to liqht candles. It would be better to in- vest. It has the same ring as TVA--invest, create opportunity. That's worth a heck of a lot more than a simple, little phrase called 'lbalancinq the budqet Well, when we talked about the TVA, and I don't want to go back over it, but to me one of the interesting things is that we started out with our hydroelectric power. Then we went more and more into coal for power which we had to do, and now we're getting ready to build two atomic energy nu- clear plants right in the TVA. Somethinq new and useful. Something new and useful--exactly. That's the old patent law. That's right--something new and useful. What's the state of the art? How can we make it better?

Page  273How can we make it better. What can we add that is new and useful? Sure. I'm going to Auburn University to make a speech. 1'11 have to leave here Thursday, if I'm going to speak there Friday. They are dedicat- ing their new nuclear center there. That nuclear power is a fascinating thing. When we need to come up with thinqs, we find them. Fascinating. I quess we have no idea what lies out in the ocean. No--that will be our next field of exploration. How to turn it to advantaqe. That's right. We'll find a lot of things out there besides sharks. That will be our next field. you got that speech? [To a secretary who came into the room] Have Secretary: I'm runninq copies of it riqht now. I want to get that figure of that little ball of nuclear energy com- pared to so many tons of coal--that one page. Secretary: Let me find it. I'm carrying on a course of instruction here. I'm carrying on a course of instruction, and that thing is fabulous--fabulous.

Page  274274 It's ,just short of unbelievable. It is indeed. Look at the things we've used for fuel, and then the thing about this is that we're not going to get the pollution from it that you get from your coal and your gas. You know, I was reading an article last night in the New York Times; in fact, I had a man in here--he's the Executive Secretary of the Alabama Tuberculosis Association, and they've been making these chest x-rays in different places in Alabama. It was as- tounding to see how high the percentage of respiratory troubles was in areas that were rural areas. All right What is it? It's these pesti- cides--these fungicides, some of these ertilizers. That's an eternal struqqle. He was here yesterday in the morning giving me those figures, and I couldn't hardly believe them--they ran so much higher out in some rural town, so to speak, than they did in an industrial city like Birmingham. Then last night I go home, and I pick up my Sunday New York Times, and I find this article confirming the very thing that his figures had shown. The article was titled under "medicine"--confirming those very figures. You know, one of the most interestinq thinqs that came out of the war, out of the Armed Forces Institute of Patholoqy, in part, and the Army Epidemio- loqical Board was a study of the diqestion of a mosquito--how an insect takes a poison and converts it to an advantaqe over a period of time. Remarkable. It makes for stronqer pesticides.

Page  275275 Secretary: Do vou know where it is? It's here somewhere. Do you need this? All right, fine. Let me find that. Here it is. Listen to this now: The generation of electricity from heat obtained by splitting the atom is one of the most significant contributions of nu- clear energy to our civilization today. The potential energy in a pound of uranium, a quantity about the size of a golf ball, is equal to that in three million pounds of coal. Does that astound you, sir? It astounded me when I began to get the facts up for this speech. I can't even conceive of three million pounds of coal. I can't either. I think it would probab1.v take all of South East Washinqton to store it. It might. It would take a lot of territory, plenty of acreage--as opposed to a little size of a golf ball. Just think of it. That's a shift, and then to burn free without pollution. Yes, exactly--without pollution. It's a funny thing. I've got some kin people here from Alabama that I've got to have lunch with today, and I was thinking of one of their kinfolk whom I knew when I was at school. She was a lady when I was at the University of Alabama. She was a most lovely, attractive lady, and she's kin to me. I used to have a few dates with her. She used to come over and visit some of our kinfolk at the Uni- versity of Alabama at Tuscaloosa. She afterwards married a doctor, and she died from appendicitis. Well, hell, she wouldn't die today from appendi- citis.

Page  276276 That's like tyinq your shoes. The damn thing bursted--no doubt--1 don't know. I wasn't there. The pus poured out into her abdominal cavity, and peritonitis set in. All they could do was put a rubber tube in there to try to drain the stuff off. That didn't take care of the poison, so to speak. That's reached the point where it's no problem at all. No, that's no problem. Like puttinq on a pair of shoes. That's exactly right--just think of what it was in the old days. You can almost do that sittinq up--almost. When you and I were born about the turn of the century, the life span in even this great nation of ours was about forty-seven years. Today, it's some seventy years. You talk about your mosquitoes, so far as these infec- tious, contagious, communicable diseases are concerned--by golly, we've just about got them licked. Sure have. We qet a spot once in a while, but .just a trace. That's about all. Keepinq nature honest, I quess. That old mosquito isn't taking this yellow fever around as he did in the old days--no. But to have men with imaqination study the diqestive process of a mosquito.

Page  277277 Just think of that. To have instruments to measure it. Most of us when we saw a mosquito stepped on him, killed him, knocked Think of him in the head--not being concerned with his digestive process. that. Isn't that remarkable. You talked about the number of lunq pictures that showed difficulties in rural areas, traceable to pesticides--damn potato bugs et al. I quess you can all but qet them all one year, and they grow a new bunch that will take that old poison. Build up that immunity and go right on. That's a diqestive s.ystem all b.y itself. That's right. Sure is. It gets stronger and stronger all the while. Gee, that's an interestinq idea--from rural areas. That's where the breeze is--out in the country. Sure--well, you see, I've always said this. It's a little different thought, but I've always said this; that Thomas Jefferson who was the great father, in many ways, of American Democracy--his faith wasn't in people. He lived in Paris, and he'd seen the degenerating effects of big city life. His faith was in the fellow out on the hillside, out on the farm who lived close to Nature and Nature's God. He never heard about any pesticides in that day and time. When that fellow went out there in that corn field, or that cotton field, or to see about his hogs, or his cattle, or his sheep, t

Page  278278 he breathed free air, free from pollution. Well, vou know, if you want food now, you're qoinq to have to fiqht those insects. Sure. They come on like qanqbusters. They surely do. Thev mav have done it even in Jefferson's time. Yes, they may have. But in order to riqht that balance--or rather to convert that balance into an advantaqe you need those pesticides. You couldn't wait for natural thinqs any more. You needed fertilizers--you had to shoot the .juice to them. - Yes, you had to put the juice to them. By golly, you certainly did. You had to have that crop. That was monev. That was money. So I understand that process, but it's surprisinq now--well, perhaps it isn't too surprisinq--that when you work close to these pesticides that it has this attendant effect as revealed in these pictures. Another problem. It11 tell you an interesting thing. You know when the boll weevil came in--1 think it came in through Mexico, didn't it, up through Texas

Page  279279 all up through the Southeast into our cotton section--they called it the 'Ibillion dollar bug" because-it did so much destruction, but down in a little city in southeast Alabama, Enterprise, Alabama--they have a monu- ment to the boll weevil. Do you know why they put that monument there? Because the boll weevil caused them to diversify their crop. Instead of all cotton now, they have a lot of peanuts down there. They have soy beans, poultry, cattle--these cattle you were talking about. They have a diversified agriculture--you see, not just one crop, as it were. And they put up that monument. And they put up that monument down in Enterprise, and you can go down there today--you and I walk down the road, and we'd see that little monu- ment down there to the boll weevil--it forced them to diversify. A ureat teacher. Yes--it forced them to diversify. Now, that's great peanut country down there. Also they have a lot of cattle, soy beans, some poultry-- quite a bit of poultry. It's made for a better life. Yes, but 1'11 tell you what I'm worrying about now. I was reading an article the other day among my scientific magazines. .We're using these an- tibiotics--1 think I talked about this the other day--on our chickens to make them grow faster and weigh more. We sell them now by the pound. We

Page  280280 don't sell them any longer so much for a broiler, or a frier. antibiotic doing to you and me when we eat that chicken? What's that I have no idea. Have no idea--we don't, do we. It's certainly doing something to that chicken, else he wouldn't grow so fast and as healthy as he does. I right about that? Yes, sir. all fixed up. Am The next time you come 1'11 have this speech I want to give you a copy of this speech. Does it deal with the chicken too? NO, we don't talk about the chicken, but I think you'll find it of interest. One day fifteen or twenty years from now perhaps sooner, half a dozen daring adventurers will be making the first manned flight to Mars, nearly twenty-five million miles away. encased in a one and a half million pound space ship that will be hurtling forward at speeds up to 80 thousand miles an hour. Their round trip journey including a twenty day stop over on Mars itself will take four hundred and fifty days a year and nearly three months. ar fuel will permit them to make such astronomical excursions and return safely to earth. They will be Only the enormous energy stored in nucle- That was a dream in the thirties--that was Buck Roqers. Buck Rogers--exactly . Yes, sir. It's nice to turn a corner continuous1.y. Yes, sir. Same street, but a new atmosphere. That's what it is.

Page  281And it's qoinq to chanqe all the time--think of the demands that that is goinq to put on the adjustments that we have to make to its implications. All the time. Sure. - We live in a world of change, and the more we advance the more changes we have to make. Yes, and the quicker the pulse too. It's a fascinating life. I love it. It's changed a lot since Christopher Columbus sailed from Genoa fi- nanced by Isabella of Spain. 1'11 tell you.... It sure has chanqed a lot. Oh my! 1111 tell you--Itm getting way clean off my subject now, but 1'11 tell you a very gratifying article to me that I read yesterday in the New York Times was--I'm sure you've seen of it--the restoration that has taken place in Florence, how far they have advanced in that restoration. It seemed so tragic--those flood waters from that Arno River sweeping down on so many of those beautiful works of art. Yes. - Michelangelo and so many of those other great artists,

Page  282Or carry the silt that it carried. It .iust lined the walls. Certainly. I like that art in place. I don't care for it in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I like it there. You like it there. That's where it belongs. It has meaninq there. It has meaning there that it doesn't have in a modern art gallery. I like to see it, and I wouldn't miss the chance, but it's a wholly differ- ent experience there. That's right. It was a sad thinq. Florence was a lovely place, and it will be 1ovel.y aqain. That's what this article brings out. It's remarkable what they've done to restore that--clean up the mess, so to speak. Man--when a river moves, it moves. It moves doesn't it. Sure does--that water comes tumbling down, boy! It comes rolling down. Yes, and there's no d.yke that is qoinq to hold it. No. I was there in 1950 and 1951--of course, that was some years ago. That was--well, it will be sixteen years this fall. It never occurred to

Page  283me that they would have a flood like that. Florence is such a peaceful, 1ovel.y place. The bridge there--what do they call it--Ponte Vecchio. It had been there for gosh--1 don't know--centuries. Been there for centuries. A lovelv thinq. A lovely thing, and it never occurred to me that someday they would have this terrible flood there. Me neither--wholl.y unanticipated. Our imagination wasn't great enough to take that in. I'm not sure if we had what we could have done about it in that context. What could we have done? Imaqine qettinq the people of Florence who didn't anticipate it either, to take such steps that miqht control flood damage. They would have lauqhed us out of the town. They would indeed. They would have lauqhed us out of the town, or ridden us out on a rail for beinq "trouble makers". They certainly would. I think they probably would be more receptive now.

Page  284There's no teacher like experience, particularly when that experience was a bitter experience. Oh yes, and where the cost was tremendous. When I was there in 1951, that river was flowing down calmly. Lovely. It was lovely there. There was the Chapel of the Medici where you saw so much of Michelangelo, the Pitti Gallery and right down from the Pitti Gallery there was an old house where Robert and Elizabeth Barrett Browning had lived. You never thought in terms of a darn flood--it was all peace, and quiet and beauty. so to speak. Is that right? You almost felt like you were in a second heaven, Riqht--a second artistic heaven for sure. Yes, a second artistic heaven. It was a shockinq thinq. A shocking thing. You never know. You read about these people, and you wonder how a fellow like that Mussolini ever came to such power there. I suspect he played on poverty, turned one against another, and the inequi- ties in their economic structure were there from the beginning. You know, they are a marvelous farming people with song out in the fields, and they sort of hurl singing insults from field to field in rhyme, poetry--marve- lous, and you don't anticipate the strutting, goose stepping.

Page  285285 Not at all. You visit Genoa, Naples, Florence, and you don't think about that goose stepping business. No. - Of course, I admit that old Benito finally got his due. He seemed to have himself more bark than bite because the people really didn't cotton to this. Look at when the.y went into Ethiopia. It was 1arqel.v a farce--you know, larqely a farce. Their heart wasn't in it. Their heart is in opera, sonq, insults, poetry-. The beauty of life. Sure it is. Not the cruelty of life, the beauty of life. Is that right? Yes. There's a certain amount of posinq, but I suspect that there is a certain amount of posinq in all of us. The.y just capitalized their own for the moment, and they had that biq piaza where they could qet in there and have a show--a market place sideshow. 1 They could put on that big show. He was a qreat actor, wasn't he? Sure, just like this fellow Hitler. Oh yes--well, a qreater method to the latter than to the former. I think Mussolini was sort of pla,yinq a qame and didn't have the trumps--you know. He just didn't have it, but Hitler had them.

Page  286286 Think of the cruelty, the brutality, the murder on that man's heart to put all those Jews to death. I know--the infantry division I was with, our batallion took part of Dachau. I told you before that you never rea1l.v understand why Vou're in the war, and then you see somethinq real, and then--this is after the fact. I wanted to sta.y home and qo to school--you know. I didn't care about the rest of this. It didn't seem to make much difference, but boy, when you qet a bird's view like that! We had the railroad tracks--you know, some fift.v flat cars ,just loaded with dead bodies. God--think of the horror of that thing. You can't even walk throuqh it and believe it, but there it is. Staring you in the face. Think of the horror of that thing. Sure. We found one fellow who was alive. And they'd committed no crime. No--.iust to be alive. Just to be alive and breathe the air. No, they'd committed no crime. None--a very vivid thinq, and we ought not to stop on that somber note. Well, it's history. It's fact. It sure is. We turned our back on him and slapped him down. We sure did.

Page  287287 We had to--we rea1l.y had to. Of course we did--he wanted to take over the whole world--you and me included. Riqht--you know, when I saw that, I had the worst quarrel in the world with that son of a qun. You wanted to put your bayonet right in his guts, didn't you? I wanted to do more than that, and I wanted it a little slower. I understand. That's an initial reaction to the kind of cruelty that .you saw--how can people do this? have seen it, or not to have known about it. I told them--well, actually the qreater slaves were outside the qates. They could have walked throuqh the qates on their feet with diqnity, but they preferred to live outside on their knees. Oh, man--well, let me turn this off. How can people live in the town close by and claim not to Tragedy.

Page  288Senate Office Buildinq, Wednesdav, June 28, 1967. We qot Hill-Burton passed. We got that passed in August, 1946, as I recall it. Which placed the proqram on an analysis basis in the states. Each state had to make a survey of its hospital needs. That had to be done first before we started granting funds for the construction of hospi- tals, so that we would have an orderly procedure, and we'd take care of the greatest needs first. It meant planninq. Yes, it meant planning. The bill, you see, was entitled "Hospital Survey and Construction Act." That word "survey" connoting just what you said--planning, sure. So that there would be an overall view of what the state's needs were and where it was most appropriate to locate facilities, what the road network was like--a thousand items. Yes, many things had to be looked into, and the question too came in as we see here today, the question of personnel. When you have a hospital, you have got to have your doctors, nurses, technicians--people. I suppose the question, in a way, was do we create the facilities, or do we create the personnel. You reach for the facilities, and then you cre- ate means whereby personnel become available. That's a lonq process but once it's floated....

Page  289289 It moves on. It grows. And it qrows by what it feeds on. Sure. Even if they tend, and I suppose people do, to take it for qranted after a while--or forqet about how it emerged and how it qrew, but it also set up, I think, under the administration of the Public Health Service means where- by we could learn an awful lot more about needs--like environmental needs, or even within a hospital; how to minimize administrative problems. It seems to have set in motion, not only the creation of facilities and per- sonnel to run it, but a whole study of that whole process of hospitaliza- tion. Yes, the process of hospitalization--that's correct. To which the Senate in time could respond; a new proposal, or a piece of leqislation which would embody the new idea. That's correct. That's right. So it's alive. That's it--it's alive. It grows. That it is, and, you see, along with this development of your hospitals had come in more recent years your nursing homes too, to take care of these older people. It's just surpris- ing--you take in my home town of Montgomery, Alabama--it's surprising to know the number of nursing homes that you have there today where in the old days you had practically none.

Page  290290 One of the consequences, I would think, of advances in medicine is that our population tends to be an older population. Well, there's no doubt about that. Thev have different kinds of problems which we haven't had a chance hardly to look at. At the turn of the century the life span of the average American was some forty-seven years. Today the life span is the biblical three score and ten years, or seventy years, and there's your difference. So that--,vou know, this fact required provisions, and toqether with the kind of costs that medical care--well, hospitals were qoinq to the wall in terms of service, reall,y, because there were so many older people who re- quired hospitalization, and they got more care, more facilities than their particular problem required, so the need to vary the kind of facilities was shown, and nursinq homes became important. That s right. Some of the thinkinq of Marion Folsom up in Rochester, the variation in the kind of facility, makes sense in terms of need and in terms of what people have to live with, how they can be cared for. Have you seen Marion lately? No, I haven't. The last time I saw him, and I think this was about a couple of years ago when he appeared before my committee in behalf of some legislation we

Page  291291 had before it, he didn't look too good to me. best shape. Perhaps he wasn't in the That's possible, but he bubbles with excitement on this matter of hospitals. Marion Folsom is an unusually able man--yes. He illustrates a funnv thins to me--sometimes the older some men qet the more radical they become in terms of idea. I don't mean "radical" in an.y bad sense. I mean he's open to conviction on a real alteration which would chanqe the attitudes--like the denominational attitudes in Rochester--by settinq up means whereby this can be done to chanqe the whole atmosphere. Now, you know, that's a hard thins to attempt even on a clear da.v. That's right--it is indeed. But it does illustrate the doqqed determination of this man to find a solu- tion for a problem. That's the type of man Marion Folsom is. Yes, a perfectly marvelous feelinq you qet from him. I'm sorry to hear that he didn't look well when you saw him. I met him and talked with him about three .years aqo, and he bubbled, talked all day lonq about the detail in Rochester to illustrate the problems he was confrontinq in terms of hospital service and facilities, Blue Cross and Blue Shield and what their problems were from a cost point of view, and they were pretty hard. I'm sure of that. If he didn't look quite so well last time I saw him, I imagine some of those burdens he'd been carrying had something to do with it.

Page  292No doubt about that at all, but it also illustrates, I think--vou know, in the twenties there was a committee on the cost of medical care, a marvelous shelf of books and reports for that time, and thev also worked, I think la- ter with the President's Committee on Economic Securit.y, and there was an effort then to have a health insurance bill incorporated with the Social Security Act as of that time. Yes, as of that time. But it was sort of shouted down the way TVA had been shouted down by vested interests that either didn't understand the health insurance scheme, or did- n't want it. That's right. Look how far we've come since then! Sure. You know, an interesting thing about medicare--you know, the opposition to it on the part of the doctors--many of them are becoming not only reconciled to it, but are looking with more and more favor on it all the time, and of course what that means is this; that with these older peo- ple the doctors are being paid for services that they would not otherwise be paid for. These people would all be indigents. They would have to give their services free. Now they can collect some fee for those services. Is that correct? Riqht. Haven't you found this? Yes, there has been a softenins of their attitude toward this whole thinq.

Page  293293 You know, it will qrow like anythinq else. It will present its problems, and they will be know. Oh sure--it has its problems, but anything has its problems. It takes time. Certainly, but think if health insurance had been introduced in the ear1.y thirties, it would have thirt.v years experience b.y now instead of letting the problem qet to the point where it had to have a kind of crash proqram. Yes, get so acute that you had to have, as you say, a crash program. You didn't have time to work it out like if you had started out thirty odd years before. I'm qlad it's been introduced, re-introduced, but it's an old idea way back into the twenties, and even earlier than that, in the sense that there are services which should be available to an American citizen just because he's an American citizen, and health services are very important, or have become more important, and you're riqht, our population--1 don't know what the per- centaqe is, but it tends to create problems on one end, and endless prob- lems in a way with older folks. We have to make provision. That's right. You know, I often thought, knowing Franklin Roosevelt as I did, that if we hadn't gotten into World War 11, and there was no way for us to stay out. We had to get in that. It rained. That's it--exactly, there was no way to stay out, but I think perhaps knowing him and his vision as I did, that we would have moved in under him,

Page  294but, you see, when he first came in, we were in.the midst of this terrible depression, and when we finally got out of this depression, we were in World War I1 and all our energies, all our thoughts, everything, had to be geared to winning this war. From a health point of view the war was interestinq because it allowed the qovernment to introduce and support health insurance for servicemen and ser- vicemen's families. That's correct. It was ver.v difficult for vested riqhts to stand up aqainst that kind of feeling. Against those fellows wearing that uniform and on that battle front. Riqht. That's right. You had a sort of parallel thing runninq alonq, p rivate orqanizations which were doinq well in those days in addition to the qovernment supported bene- fits, health benefits for servicemen--experience under that. You had experience under that. The private orqanizations, and they proliferated quite a bit throuqhout the country, but when the drain beqan to be heavier, the costs to rise, you had to do something. You know, It11 tell you an interesting thing talking about veterans.

Page  295295 It wasn't really until after World War I1 that we converted what we call our Veterans Hospitals into real hospitals. In the old days they were just old soldiers' homes, but then we got Paul Hawley and Paul Magnuson in there, and we converted them into real hospitals. They chanqed the qame, didn't they? They sure did. Thev didn't stick the new hospitals out somewhere, but put them where uni- versities were. That's right--they tied them right in with these medical centers--sure. That makes so much difference. That makes a tremendous difference. You take--maybe I told you this, and I don't want to repeat, but just a year ago I went down to Birmingham, Alabama, where the University of Alabama Medical Center is and the Veter- ans Administration Hospital is. They wisely put that Veterans Administra- tion Hospital across the street from the University Medical Center, and I went down there to make a speech to dedicate the tying in of the research facilities of the University of Alabama Medical Center and the research fa- cilities of the Veterans Administration Hospital there. We built this bridge across the street so that those facilities would be tied in. A re- searcher in the university would not be maybe over a hundred feet away from a researcher in the Veterans Administration Hospital, and both of them try- ing to get the same answer and yet with no contact, no cooperation, no team work at all--you see. Now, we've got them a11 working together down there.

Page  296296 That's the first time that had ever been done. There's no special cataloque that I know of called "Veterans' Diseases". No--that's exactly right. You walk into the Veterans Hospital in Bir- mingham, and you see veterans suffering from this disease, or that disease, and if you walk across the street to the University Hospital, you find the same diseases there--sure. What research does qo on is available to both. Yes, available to both, as it should be. I think it tends to keep a hospital somewhat on its toes too. I think it does. I think it keeps it moving forward, moving forward-- yes, sir, and that's good. Did you ever know Paul Hawley? No, but he's prett.y much of a stem-winder. Did you ever know Paul Magnuson? No, but I've seen Veterans Hospitals, and they have chanqed--they even de- veloped for a while a research proqram of their own. That's right. Now they've tied it all in as it should be tied in. I knew Paul Hawley, but I never knew him too well, but Paul Magnuson I've had a good deal of contact with him. in Chicago. He was a great orthopedic surgeon out there He's a man very fruitful with idea. Yes--sure. >

Page  297297 There are some letters of his in the correspondence on Hill-Burton amonq other topics, and ver.v illuminating. Oh yes, and he's a man of vision, a man of real vision. He put it on the line--certain criticisms that he had of the wordinq of the act. Put it riqht on the line. He's a very--I'd like for you to know Paul sometime. He's a very forthright man. That's qood--a man you can deal with. Oh, he's a forthright man, and dynamic. He wrote his biography. Do you know what he called it? Rinq the Niqht Bell. From the correspondence he sounds like a man vou can work with--deal with. I have worked with him. Even if vou differ. That's right. He has a sense of oneness that comes out in these letters too. I think one of the best things Harry Truman did was to set up this Magnuson Commission. Out of that came a lot. Oh, yes. You qet a man with ideas and turn him loose. He may be comparable to old Colonel Worthinqton. You can't fence them in. No, sir.

Page  298298 There's much to be said about the power of a persuasive presence, and from his correspondence it appears that he has that kind of power. He's out of town now. I don't know how long he's going to be gone. I'd like for you to meet him. Helped chanqe the scene. Yes--helped change the scene. That's exactly right. "Where there is no vision, the people perish," and he certainly had the vision--not only the vision, but he had the will to do, to drive ahead, drive on, drive on. Well, you know, words aren't self-activatinq. It takes a little human power to make them sing. That's right. You've qot to know where you're qoinq. Yes--move on, move on. Then there's another item certainly in the development of NIH, the insti- tute approach, and this is the provision made in the law--the international institute. It's a fantastic idea. I said earlier that it's hard to con- ceive of making the United States a reasonably disease-free area in a dis- eased world. The International Health Institute makes a lot of sense. I wondered if you would tell me something about that legislation, something about the difficulties getting fully accepted the ideas that the legisla- tion embodied initiallx. Well, now let's see we passed that legislation in 1958, didn't we?

Page  299299 I'd almost have to go back and take a look at that bill. Have you ever taken a look at that bill as we originally introduced it? I didn't find that. You didn't find that [reaching for the phone] Bob, can you get me a copy of our International Health Research Bill that we introduced--you know, about 1958? I introduced it. Have you got an original copy? I think I introduced it in 1958, didn't I? I believe we passed it that year. I think it was introduced in 1958--I believe it was. Well, take a look and bring it to me, will you? These details have a way sometimes of slipping out of your mind. I know. I think if you'll look at the original bill, you'll see what we had in our minds. I know we went to the House, and they chopped it down quite a bit. We had to just take the best we could get. After all, YOU know, we have to have agreement. That's the parade aqain. That's it exactly, You argue and argue and argue, and you insist and insist and insist, but if they're adamant, you just have to get the best you can. Either take the best you can, or get nothing. Right? Riqht. What are you doing inhaling that cigarette, boy? I thouqht I probably needed one.

Page  300300 That's all right, but you inhaled it. Is that bad? That's bad. Old habits die hard. Maybe you're like Jim Shannon. He comes in here to see me at differ- ent times. He's head of the Institutes, as you know. Yes. - And he begins to smoke a cigarette, and I jump him a little bit about it in a good natured way, and he says, "Well, at my age, it doesn't make any difference really." Well, I tell him, "You're the head of the National Institutes of Health. You set an example. A young boy, or a young girl, knowing you're the head of the National Institutes of Health and seeing you smoke, they wouldn't know anything about that age business. They'd just say, 'Well, if the head of the National Institutes of Health can smoke and inhale, no reason why I shouldn't do it. t'? It's a vicious circle. It's a vicious circle, and I'm very thankful to say that I never started. I was told that I should not and in such harsh terms that somehow or other it became the thing on the other side of the fence.

Page  301301 How long ago were you told that? Oh, when I was twelve. I was cauqht red-handed--you know, with a bunch of other kids, and the punishment exacted was sufficient1.y severe that it made it sort of enjoyable. I understand. Well, vou know, the old story of the cookie put it way up there out of reach, and that's the first thinq you want. Sure, that's right, and frankly in the old days you didn't hear any- thing about the evils of smoking, or the consequences of smoking. I did. You did, but many young folk, children didn't. It was a moral thinq, not a health thinq. It was a moral thing, not a health thing--sure. You didn't hear much about it from the standpoint of health--talk about emphysema. The word "emphysema", if it was in ,the dictionary--nobody knew it was there. Yet to be coined. That's right--yet to be coined. You didn't hear much about it in con- nection with heart trouble,cancer, and these other things that you hear to- day. Is that right? Yes. - 1'11 tell you one reason I didn't smoke. I knew if I came home, and

Page  302302 they found cigarette smoke on my breath, I would get a thrashing. My Dad would have exacted the penalty. M,y Dad did, and I didn't quite see the connection. It wasn't a kind of rational thinq. It was almost--1 won't say irrational, but more emotional than sensible, and it stunq--well, you know, Dad's were heavy handed in those da.ys. Oh, boy, I should say so, but we had discipline in those days. I still reached beyond the fence for that ciqarette. We had discipline in that day and time. Oh, boy. We sure did. I think that's one of the things we suffer from today, lack of discipline. The absence of it. The absence of it--sure. We've qot a lot--we really have a lot, and we haven't real1.y turned to im- provinq thinqs that still need to be improved. That's right. Our eyes, our sense of beauty, and so on--sense of pleasure and appreciation, music, art, athletics. That's certainly true.

Page  303303 I think it will come in time, but kids qenerally have too much, and vou know, in order to qet some kick out of life they have to break into homes. They don't have a sense of restraint. You know, Solomon said, t'Spare the rod and spoil rod and spoil the child," and I think we need more di There's too much crime among our juveniles. . That's the bad part. Yes, that's the bad part. the child. Spare the cipline--undoubtedly. But that may be a response to circumstance about which we know very little. You know, there's a uniqueness about human experience, and it can respond to thinqs which you and I would see and make adjustments for. It can re- spond in a kind of wild way, particularly in our cities. Jefferson was riqht--they're ulcerous ant hills. Yes, he'd lived in Paris, and he'd seen the influences of the city. His faith wasn't in the human being. His faith was in that fellow out there on the hillside living close to Nature and Nature's God, not some fellow living here in the city with all its corrupting influences. You see, old Watt who decided that we needed an enqine chanqed the whole site of our living,. He did indeed. You know Bob Barclay, don't you? Is that the report as it was originally introduced? This is as it passed the House. Barclay: As it passed the Senate and was introduced in the House.

Page  304304 We originally introduced it in the Senate. Here's the original bill right here. You don't have a copy of it except in this book? That would- n't show what we had in mind. Barclay: This is very close to it. This is our.bil1--just as the Senate acted on it. We made very few changes in it as I remember. This is the bill as it passed the Senate--we introduced it in 1958, and it passed the Senate on May 28, 1959. This is the bill here that was referred to the House Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce. They made quite a few changes. They are the ones that Have you ex- took the guts out of it--not all of them, but some of them. tra copies of this? Barclay: I have extra copies of this report. What about the bill? Barc ay: I can make copies of that bill. I wanted the good doctor here to have one. He's asking me some ques- tions about this. Here we are in the year of our Lord, 1967 and the bill passed in 1959. That was eight years ago, and I thought the best way for him to know what was in the bill as we passed it in the United States Sen- ate was for him to see the bill rather than to rely on my memory. It was a seed bed time, wasn't it, Senator? That's right--it planted a seed. It did indeed, and we had a man down here in the White House, Harry S. Truman, who was willing to plant some

Page  305305 seeds, go along with you on that sort of thing. Well, Bob, make a copy of this bill. Barclay: This report is extra--1 have another copy of this. The report really tells the story, doesn't it? 1'11 tell you what you do. 1'11 give the doctor the report now, and you make a copy of the bill and mail it to him at the National Library of Medicine. Thank you very much, Bob. We didn't make any changes on it much--you see, I went around and picked up a lot of votes before I introduced it. All right, sir, and you have a copy of that mailed out today to the doctor. Now, what you'd bet- ter do, my dear boy, is read this report. I just happened to turn this page. Did you ever know Dr. Rhoads? C. P. Rhoads? Memorial Hospital? He's gone now, isn't he? I just noticed his statement here. You were talking about this increase in the age of our population. This is quoting Rhoads now: I do not need to tell you the importance of the cancer problem. Because of the increasing average age of the population, the annual death rate from cancer and the annual incidence rate are steadily rising, despite the vigorous efforts which have been made. We are not at the moment winning this battle. Well, we are not winning that battle at this moment--nine years later. You saw where our lady Governor went down to the M. B. Anderson Clinic. By the way, I was out there two wee.ks ago Friday where I made the commencement address.

Page  306306 Is that the atomic enerqv statement? No. No. Here's that speech. At Baylor University Medical College. Yes, I think vou were cominq back by wav of Huntsville. Yes, I did--mental retardation. [on the phone] Hello, little girl, have you got an extra copy of the speech I made at Baylor University Medical School down at Dallas, Texas, and also an extra copy of the speech I made the next day at Huntsville to the Mental Retardation Association? All right--fine. You're interested in mental retardation, aren't you? It's one of our problems. It's a funny thing that my eye fell on Rhoad's statement. He was head of the Sloan Kettering Cancer Institute there. Is that right? Riqht. You'll notice that had Howard Rusk down here. also had C.mde 1 Stanley. 1'11 tell you an interesting thing. He called me on the phone here about two years ago--yes, about two years ago; certainly two years ago this past early spring, saying that he was going to New York and that if he came back by way of Washington, could he see me. I said, "Sure,'1 that I'd be happy to see him, so he told me when he came in to see me that he thought that we could get a vaccine for rubella, German measles, if we would start now. I said, "How much money do you want to start with?" He said, ltI think you ought to start with about ten million dollars." I said, "All right, doctor, 1'11 do everything I can to get that ten million dollars to try to get us a vaccine for rubella."

Page  307307 A member of my committee--well, turn that off a minute. I put the ten million dollars in anyway, and we're going to have that vaccine shortly. It's around the corner--one year, or two years. There's another thing about it too. In my study of these vaccines, and we've led the world really ever since Jenner gave us the smallpox vaccine, they have been largely the product of what you might call a collaborative effort where you had the federal government and your private foundations, maybe your Rockefeller, or your Carnegie, or your Ford Foundation helping and maybe your drug companies too--your medical centers and all that kind of thing. I think that rubella vaccine is right around the corner. This fellow Wen- dell Stanley sat right in that chair where you're sitting and gave me the information that inspired me to start out with that first ten million dol- lars. Since then, of course, we've put more money in it, and I believe wetre going to get it. It's worth it. Of course it's worth it. We're back on the record now, but I didn't want to put that on the record about my colleague on the committee. Hell, I want the drug companies to do all they can, but I don't think this mighty nation needs to rely on any one drug house to get a vaccine. Do we? No. Besides there's a certain virtue in a kind of competition. Sure there is. Competition--there's nothing like competition. That's what has built America. That's a key word--competition. Otherwise, the\/ can rest on their laurels with exclusivity. Well, I'm going to give you these two speeches, and he's going to send

Page  308you the copy of the bill as I introduced it, and then here's the report of the committee. I wondered in the international field--.just to speculate a bit--the Rocke- feller Foundation had been workinq in the foreinn field for a lonq time. That's true isn't it. The late twenties--hookworm in South America and so on--.vou know, waves of disease that are far qreater than our ability to handle. That's right. And in the course of time when the federal qovernment itself qot interested in health as a problem, I wondered whether they saw ways of aiding .... Excuse me one minute here. [one long buzzer] Give me the Democratic Cloakroom, please.

Page  309309 Senate Office Buildinq, Thursday, June 29, 1967. 1ncidentall.v. this report is a marvelous document. Do you think it is? It puts it on the line for--well, the thins that intriques me most about it is its talk about the creation of a context which encouraqes support, collaboration, and communication between scientists sharinq mutual inter- ests wherever they may reside. That's the way it ought to be: Some fellow way off somewhere else finds out how to grow you a new crop, you don't want the next generation .... Get that man's name! Get him right now--sure. When you think back to the Eisenhower years I think except in the field of health, they stood pretty still. Well, most of what we did in health--we had to push it ourselves. We didn't have any leadership from down there. We had no leadership from down there because Eisenhower just wasn't disposed to that kind of administra- tion--you know what I mean. He was not really trained to think in those terms. No, he was not. Did I ever tel.1 you what Omar Bradley said about him? Have you got this thing on? This is terrible. What did Omar Bradley say about him?

Page  310310 We were talking about nominating Eisenhower way back. He was nomi- nated in 1952, as you know, and there was a year or two before that that they started to talk about him. Bradley who was second in command to him there in Europe said, "Ike for President? He'd never do. He can't make a decision .I1 The truth of the business is that when he was here, and I say this with only kindly feelings, he was always personally nice to me. He'd have my wife and myself down to one of his dinners down there every year he was down there, and all that business, but John Foster Dulles ran the show on the foreign front, and "vicuna coat" Adams ran the show on the domestic front. Oh ves. Eisenhower didn't run that show. He wasn't that kind of man. He was--well, let's say, one hell of a qood qeneral and a ral1,vinq point, a mediator, but touqh-minded fellows like Patton and. ... He had the British to deal with and all that sort of thing. That's a ticklish business. He even had those damn Russians to deal with. He could pull that off. That's right--he could pull that off. But to qenerate an idea as to where we were qoinq to qo as a nation....

Page  311311 He didn't have that kind of imagination. No, he didn't have that kind of imagination. He sure did not. So you sort of had to .yap at his heels, bite a bit. Yes, yap at his heels--that's exactly right. That was a very interestinq cabinet--just how 5ecretar.y of the Treasury Humphre.y who disaqreed publicly with Eisenhower's monetary and fiscal ideas, remained in the cabinet! That shows you. Marion Folsom was a man of idea and could entertain an idea. Yes, he could. He sure could, but he was very much delimited because of his leader. The Bureau of the Budqet had seiqe quns. They sure did. They weren't ready to do anythinq, but pull back, so you had to press a bit. He was prepared to press because he could entertain a qood idea. Well, you have to jockey and shove a bit. Yes, you have to jockey and shove a bit--you sure do. By 1959, the Conqress had chanqed hands, had it not? It was all Democrat. Yes, we had control. The fact of the business is that he didn't have the Congress but the first two years--1952-1954. The Democrats took the

Page  312312 Congress back in 1955, and we've pretty well kept it since then; in fact, we have kept it since 1955. So that this bill was in a wa.v a kind of platform. That Is right. It had a peaceful intent. That's right. Put our skill and brains at the service of.... Mankind--that's right. That was the purpose of it. What happened in the House? They had all kinds of troubles over there. As you know, they butch- ered it up. Have you still got this thing on? 1'11 tell you an interest- ing thing. My good friend Howard Rusk was trying to help us with this. You know, he's very much internationally minded. He bounces all around the world proclaiming the doctrine of physical rehabilitation; in fact, I think he's the greatest prophet in that field certainly in the United States. If there is anyone in any other country I don't happen to know who he is, but Howard was trying to help us in the House. Howard came from Missouri, and Clarence Cannon who was the long time chairman of the House Committee on Appropriations came from Missouri. Howard came from Clarence Cannon's district. You remember Clarence Cannon by name. He was chairman of the Appropriations Committee for many years and therefore had a lot of influ- ence. I got hold of Howard, and he came down here and got old Clarence to

Page  313313 go before the House Committee in behalf of the bill and then, dammit, when the bill came up in the House, Clarence voted against it. That just shows you what you're up against over there. You know, you can push .just so far and then the other fellow has to walk. The other fellow has to walk--you're exactly right. The outlines of this report were enacted. Oh yes, they were. Some of the detail was softened, but the outline was enacted--yes it was, the major objectives, so to speak, were achieved, but some of the detail, as you say, was softened. In the field of traininq foreiqn scientists-it became somethinq of a prob- lem whether ,you would create, say, thirteen biochemists from South Korea when there wasn't a pharmaceutical industry, or chemical industr.y suffi- ciently sophisticated to employ them, even if they had the talent. That's a hard tiqhtrope to walk. It sure is. Did you ever think about how many of these foreigners we have over here now? In our hospitals--interns, medical schools, and all that kind of thing. Let's put it this wav--if the consequence is an effort to train as much talent as possible, I couldn't care less from what source it came. That's true. The provisions look be.yond to a world application, and it became necessary to have an economic study of an area like Honduras as to whether it could

Page  314314 sustain biochemistry. That's right. So it became a much larqer problem than just traininq, and I qather it made for some effort to sharpen insiqht into foreiqn areas from an economic stand- point. No doubt about that. To see whether it was fruitful or not. See whether it was fruitful or not--absolutely true. That's qood--what is it, you have to creep into an area before you stand up, and the more information you have the better .vou're able to pound away once you have it. That's right. This outline is just a fantastic thinq--on the books. it with a,whole new meaning. Another aqe can fill That's right--it's there. It sure is there. You know, talking about that.1 ought not to take your time to tell you a little story. have told you in the past, about my father. degree at New York University up there in New York, he heard about Samuel D. Gross who was really then the best of American surgery, so my father went down to Jefferson and got another degree down there. The purpose of going to Jefferson wasn't so much to get that second degree as it was to attend Grossts lectures, and yet not too terribly long before my father I told you, After he'd gotten his M.D.

Page  315315 went there, Joseph Lister came over to this country and delivered a lecture up there at Philadelphia which is sort of the cradle of American medicine, as you and I know. Gross said, "He's crazy, carbolic acid crazy!" Is that what he said? Yes. "He's crazy, carbolic acid crazy!" It was a new idea to entertain. Well, I've told you before how my father was the first American sur- geon to suture an American heart. Did I tell you what John B. Roberts, one of the leading surgeons of his time there in Philadelphia--well, he predict- ed that the human heart would be some day successfully sutured, and Bill- roth who was the great surgeon there in Vienna said, "Any man who will at- tempt it will lose the respect of the medical profession." God Almighty! The?/ do say funny thinqs. They do say funny things. Do you know what I was thinking about this morning when I was shaving and dressing? What? - The first institute that we set up out here at the National Institutes of Health, and that was really before I got into this health field like I have now, was the Cancer Institute. That was in 1937. That was thirty years ago, and yet that thing has been such a baffling, terrible disease-- we've. made less progress in that than we have in heart, vascular, and other diseases. Of course, so far as your infectious and communicable diseases

Page  316316 are concerned, when we get this rubella, as I was talking about yesterday, we've just about got them all there now. Got them in the net. That's about the last of the gang--last of the gang. You know, what is interestinq about the development of that Cancer Insti- tute in 1937--it really was and remains a pitch for the most basic research. That is true--no doubt about that. To understand far more about cells than we ever dreamed existed. Cella, enzymes--all different things. We couldn't have set up a more basic institute than that. While you can look forward to its practical application some da.y, the whole nature of the problem, I suspect, from the point of view of measurement and even thinkinq about it in a molecular way--well, the cell is a little world all by itself--a baffling thinq. That's right--a baffling thing. It sure is. But, you know, somebody will dream away someday and whammo! Yes, that's right. Did you see that story in yesterday afternoon's paper about this woman doctor from England who is over here delivering a lecture about how to train a woman for childbirth, make that childbirth so much easier if she is properly trained beforehand to undergo that labor or- deal, so to speak.

Page  317317 Preparation. Preparation--that's right--preparation. Orientation makes sense. I didn't see the article, but orientation makes sense. Yes, it sure does make sense. Golly it does. Well, we've come a long ways--a long ways. Yes, and we've opened up new areas that we didn't even dream about. The whole business of resistance is somethinq. Isn't that so? We never dreamed of it. Old Hippocrates would come back here today--what would he think? I don't know--1 think he'd be pleased bevond his wildest dream. Wouldn't he? Wouldn't he be pleased? Wouldn't your Dad be pleased? We don't have to qo back that far. Your Dad would be just as excited .... My Dad got to be seventy years of age in February, 1932--thatts thirty- five years ago this last February--and he stopped practicing. He felt that when a man got to be seventy years of age, he ought to stop surgery, and thatts the thought today. I don't imagine there's a first class hospital in the United States that would let a fellow over seventy years of age op- erate. What would he say had he been able to see the new operatinq facilities at

Page  318the Clinical Center? There you are--take that heart-lung machine. I delivered the commence- ment address at Jefferson just a year ago, the second day of June, this month, and there I saw Dr. John Gibbons. He perhaps contributed as much, if not more, than anybody else to the development of that machine. Just think of what that machine can do! It's the difference between tryinq and not trying. Doggone right. The difference between chance and no chance, and that's a biq difference. A big difference. Bet vour life. 1'11 say it is a tremendous difference--tremendous difference. We've come a lonq way. Well, 1'11 tell you--when I think that the President of the American Medical Association made the statement that in the last twenty-five years we've made more progress in medicine than we have in all the centuries be- fore that time, he was just about right. Ue've wiped out practically all these contagious, communicable diseases. Gone! Riqht. I told you before that I had typhoid fever, and my wife had typhoid fever. My mother had typhoid, and her father died from typhoid fever.

Page  319319 They say that, but I think he died from the damn ignorance of the doctor. He gave him a dose of calimo--about the worst thing you can do for a ty- phoid fever because you develop these ulcers--you know. You stir them up and what do you do--get a hemorrhage, don't you? I told you that before. We don't have that problem. No, we don't have that problem any more--we do not. You know, in reading this report--the phrase I read earlier, the emphasis upon communication, think of the way in which we have increased our knowl- edqe in the medical field and the need now to make sure it's available. Well, that is largely the purpose behind the Heart, Cancer and Stroke Centers--to establish those regional centers throughout the United States, to try to get this knowledge out. We're going to have one there at the University of Alabama Medical Center so that this fellow practicing down at Pigeon Creek can get that information, get that knowledge out--it's so darn important. Book facilities--if he wants to studv somethinq--where can he qo? He can send off a little request and qet back a photocopy of what he wants. As you know now wetre establishing these Regional Medical Libraries tied right in with the National Library of Medicine. Riqht--that whole computer approach in which.... They get that information out--it's remarkable. Your Dad--he kept his journals and bound them and was driven b.v curi0sit.v

Page  320320 to know more. When vou think that the accumulated wisdom in medical papers and journals is now available to the fellow in Piqeon Creek, or will be. Will be--sure. Just like he can have a television set down there, turn it on and see something that is going on in Paris instantaneously, he can get that information almost that same way. He doesn't have to tuq on his ear an.vmore--he ma,v ultimately, but he'll be armed. It's just remarkable what has happened. Isn't that right. It's incredible. Just as you say, it's incredible what's happened. It is indeed. Out of what did the National Library of Medicine Act qrow? Out of what did that grow--well, it grew out of the--well, it was Then it was the Army first the Surgeon General's Library of the Army. Medical Library, and then we moved into the National Library of Medicine. The old building is down here now--that old red building down there. Now they call it the Army Medical Museum, but that was the old building that housed the old Army Medical Library. We passed that bill, as I recall it, under a man named Dwight D. Eisenhower. He didn't recommend it, or sug- gest it a damn-bit, but he did sign it. That's the Hill-Kennedy Bill. That's right. They've got quite an outfit out there. That's where you operate from. Frankly, between you and me--you won't tell on me--1

Page  321321 don't care much for the architecture of that building, but I reckon that's the architecture today. Architecture aside, the question is does it function. Does it function. It turns out. It turns out doesn't it. Isn't it doing the job? It's doing the job, isnt t it. But you know, .just like an.vthinq else when vou have to think ten, fifteen years ahead as to what the demands conceivablv miqht be over what you have, you can't continue to qo with facilities that are adequate now, but you have to think around cornere. Well, 1'11 say this about that. I quoted to you the other day that quotation from Ralph Waldo Emerson--"An institution is the lengthened shad- ow of one man." That's the "lengthened shadow" of John Shaw Billings. He started that Surgeon General's Library, the Army Medical Library, now the National Library of Medicine. How did vou qet the Senate to think in terms of libraries. That was pretty new, wasn't it? Well, sort of. And besides I think, and I may be wronq, but this is the onlv national li- brary as of this time--National Medical Library. I think that's true.

Page  322322 I suspect that there was p1ent.v of support for what was beinq done out at NIH. - We aroused good interest there--don't you see. Yes we had. Do you know who the first chairman of the Board of Directors of the National Li- brary of Medicine was? Dr. Worth Daniels. He's a qood man. Right here in Washington, the son of Josephus Daniels who was Secre- tary of the Navy under Woodrow Wilson, and a damn good friend of mine. Of course he's been gone some years now, but he and I got to be awful good friends. In 1937, when I was chairman of the old House Committee on Mili- tary Affairs, I went over with General Pershing with other congressmen and senators--about four of us I guess altogether--together with the members of the National Battle Monuments Commission of which General John Pershing was the chairman, to dedicate those battle monuments and the chapels we had built in our cemeteries where our boys are buried as a result of World War I. Josephus Daniels having been Secretary of the Navy, he went with us, and my wife and I got to know him awfully well; in fact, in that day and time when you went out in the evening to some kind of a to-do you had to wear a shirt and white tie, and he had trouble tying that white tie, so he'd come up to my room and get my wife to tie his tie for him. We got to be big friends. He was a qreat old bov. Josephus was a great old boy, and Worth is an awful fine man. Do you know who the second chairman was? There's his picture--Dr. Champ Lyons,

Page  323323 University of Alabama. Old Worth, Champ and I--one or two of us--had a little meeting out at my house, and we decided to make Worth the first chairman and Champ would be the next chairman. It's qrown. Sure it's grown to beat the band. I was there the day we broke the ground, started to build the library. I was also there the day we dedicated the library, opened it--you see, and then I was there--when was it, a year or two years ago when we had an anniversary out there commemorating John Shaw Billings. He was quite a fellow. As I told you before, he designed the old Johns Hopkins Hospital. He designed the Peter Bent Brigham Hospi- tal in Boston--quite a man that John Shaw Billings. He had sparks cominq from all sides. He sure did. So did that fellow. [pointing to Dr. -..amp Lyonls p-zture.] He was looking ahead--yes. He was looking ahead. He sure was. That's what we need. Oh ,yes, you've qot to have fertile humans on which to re1.v. That's right. We need that desperately in the field 0. medicine and biology, and we need it in international affairs. We've got it within the power of man now to destroy himself with these atomic bombs. I don't like to think about it, but it's true. It's not a very happy p rospect.

Page  324324 Sure is not. Did I give you a copy of my speech at Auburn, Alabama, at the nuclear institute? Yes. - I thought I gave you that. I gave you a copy the other day of my speech at Houston. Houston and Huntsville--both. We've done a lot to aid, and we've also been pretty good at creatinq the means to destroy it all. That's right. We've qone in both directions. Well, in the old days when our forefathers traveled with these old horses and buggies, they didn't have to worry about punctures and blowouts. Of course, you don't have them now, but for many years you did have them. Indeed .you did. I remember once I was going down to a little town, Georgiana--that's just about eighty-five miles from Montgomery. I was going down there to make a speech. I bought me two new tires, and I hadn't gotten ten miles down the road when one of those damn new tires blew out. Of course, we've gotten beyond that now, thank God. Tissue paper. That's right, but we've just got to keep a working on some of these things. There's much yet to be done.

Page  325You can't afford to stand still. What is so unique about this Internation- al Health and Medical Research Act is that it seems to float an area in the foreinn field which miqht be very useful quite apart from foreiqn policy. That's right. Contact and communication. Sure, the time we worked on that and passed it I thought that was one of the most important features of it--this communication between peoples of the world--see what I mean. Science and medicine beinq the kind of community that transcended national boundaries. That's right. People with disease are just people with disease wherever. That's right whether they are in London, in New Delhi, or in Washing- ton, D.C.--wherever they are: That's certainly true, by golly. The speech, I think in Houston was a plea, in a way, for your listeners to get enlisted in the consequences of federal leqislation and local, .state, and reqional assistance. That's right. So that they would know what the stake was. Sure--that's right. That's what it was. You've got to get that cre- ative partnership.

Page  326What was most interestinq about the speech was the fact that so much had been contributed certainly in the State of Texas on a local level. That's a rich oil section right in there. They had contributed so much. Sure. - The whole sense of partnership. We ouqht to talk about the off-shore oil business too, but we won't because it's non-medical and it has to do with education. A common interest, but the effort was to qet these younq practitioners not to take what the.v re- ceive for qranted but to understand how it emerqed and how to keep it alive. How to keep it going--sure, that's right. Some criticism had been leveled at the fact that appropriations had sort of diminished in terms of qrowth--and I don't know whether that's wise, or unwise, and there's no wa.v to tell except in terms of performance really, but the notion was that appropriations miqht dwindle to a drip if the.y did- n't take an active interest in the stake which the last ten, fifteen years had created. In most of these hearinqs it seems to me that the universit.v presidents and deans don't have an orqanized voice. I don't know whether the.v do, or not. Well, I've often doubted it. They seem to be receivers in a sense that they don't have an overview. Ma,ybe the,vYre burdened b.y their own immediate problems.

Page  327327 They don't have that initiative. They don't have it. I've come to believe, and this may be wrong too, that with the development of NIH, it has reached the size and scope where it can't wait to receive idea. It has to qenerate idea. You're certainly right. And since it does, it has to both float the idea and collect the detail to sustain it and even qo so far as to marshal support for it, once it's de- siqned. That's certainly true. In the sense of beinq leq men, idea men, administrators for a purpose which has the nation as a whole as its end. That's certainly true. They .just can't wait an.v more. No. It may be that that qrowth precluded presidents and deans from havinq a view. - That might be true. If you collected all the presidents, it might be like negotiating with a parade anyway, and it might be better to chew on some meal already digested at NIH, criticize that, help shape that, than it would be to float an idea vourself.

Page  328328 That's true, but you need that innovation. Oh ves. You have to have a man with an idea. You've got to have that innovation. If the Wright brothers hadn't have had innovation, you wouldn't have had that airplane. You'd still be walkinq, or ridinq that bus. Did I tell you who helped them considerably--Alexander Graham Bell. , He was quite a fellow. He had to be. I told you he helped that girl right there too, didn't I? She's some qirl! Oh my, by the way she had her eighty-seventh birthday day before yes- terday, I sent her a telegram congratulating her. She comes from my state, you know. Yes. - A wonderful person. Think how you can capitalize on that kind of experience. Yes--sure. Opened up a whole world for some qroups. Why certainly. There she was nineteen months old, totally blind and

Page  329329 totally deaf. You would have thought that she was a lost soul so far as this world was concerned, and yet she not only turned out not; to be a lost soul, but she's done so much for humanity, so much for the other fellow. She's a rallyinq point, a symbol. A rallying point--exactly--wonderful. Yes, she's a wonderful ladv. Your state has contributed not a little, hasn't it--waterways, electric power development, medical interests. We had a pretty good man by the name of William Crawford Gorgas. You sure did. I told you how when he died--he was in London. I may have told you this before. What is this? They gave him a big state funeral in London. He was on his way to one of the British colonies down in Africa at the request of the British Govern- ment when he unfortunately died there in London, and they gave him this big state funeral there at St. Paul's, the great church of the military and na- val heroes of England, where Nelson is buried, where Wellington is buried, all the great military and naval heroes. They gave him this big state fu- neral there at St. Paul's. Recosnition. Recognition. In fact, King George who was king at that time had asked General Gorgas to come to see him, but Gorgas had taken sick and couldn't

Page  330330 go, and King George said, "Well, if General Gorgas is too sick to come to me, 1'11 go see him," and he did. The King went to see him, and then when General Gorgas died, they gave him this big state funeral there at St. Paul's Cathedral. Have you been there at St. Paul's. Yes. - A beautiful place. That's the work of Sir Christopher Wren. I told you the story about his statue, haven't I? There's this lovely statue, life-size statue of Christopher Wren right out in the square there in front of the Cathedral, and on the base of the pedestal on which the statue stands are these words: "If you would know him, look about you," which means "Look up at that great cathedral." An extension of what it is he was. That's right. You know what he designed here in America, his best known work here in America-- I've qot to diq back in historv. William and Mary. William and Mary. Of course. Haven't you ever been to the Christopher Wren building down there? Of course--it's beautiful too. The best mint julep I probably ever had in my life I drank right there

Page  331331 in the old Christopher Wren building. Way back, a good many years ago, I took a trip with John Garner--he was then Speaker of the House of Represen- tatives. We went down to Norfolk and Portsmouth, and we stopped there at Williamsburg, and they entertained us there, and, as I say, the best mint julep I ever had was there in that Christopher Wren building in Williams- burg. If ,you still have the memorv of that, it must have been somethinq. Yes--that mint julep. Well, that lovely old building is Christopher Wren. He would not have designed this medical library. I quess in order to have it accepted as it is, it had to pass throuqh some pretty touqh levels of discussion anyway. I guess it did. And then, of course, I recognize this fact--buildings today have many things that--you talk about this computer system, electronic things. In the old days Christopher Wren never heard about them, preparing places for them--you know what I mean. I just don't care much for the archi- tecture of that building. I'm talking to you confidentially. Da you care for it? Gee, Senator, I don't have a view. I know what's on the inside, and I know that they're busting at the seams on the inside, and they tr.v to do a .job which requires personnel that somehow or other is difficult for them to hanq onto and train. I'm not talking about that phase of it at all. I'm just talking about the architectural design of the building itself. Those folks in that build-

Page  332ing--they didn't have a damn thing to do with the architectural design. Not at all, but as I see it, "Does it function?" It's doing its job. Yes, it is. But I'd like to see something out there of a more classical design-- you know what I mean. You see, I'm something of a Greek so far as archi- tecture is concerned. That's perfect1.v all riqht. I say that the most beautiful spot in the world is the Acropolis. It's in ruins, but still it's the most beautiful place on earth. It sure is--nothinq like that Mediterranean blue down below. Isn't that true, and of course the Romans copied their architecture from the Greeks. They were qood journeymen. They didn't put the spirit into it that the Greeks did. No, but they copied, and in the old days we copied a lot. The capitol here is a different design from that National Library of Medicine. Much different. Well, I'm sorry that you have misqivinqs about the exter- ior, but.. . As long as they function on the inside, it's all right.

Page  333333 Riqht. Does it hum! Yes, is it producing? And it is doing that, so it's all right, and as I say, no one there today had a thing in the world to do with that de- sign; in fact, if you asked me now who designed that building, I don't think I could think who the architect was. Do you know? His name may be out there somewhere, but I don't know who it is. How did the Army qive up its own interest in its own medical library? I don't think they gave up interest. I think they recognized the fact that the library which was the greatest medical library in the world was subject to considerable danger. This old building had reached the point where a fire might have destroyed that library and if it was once destroyed, you could never replace it. That's a tremendous collection. Yes, a tremendous collection, and I think the Army realized that the time had come when they had to have a new building. You had to have new quarters for it. It was in danger of destruction, and so under the circurn- stances they were willing to let it become the National Library of Medicine. They recognized that that old building had seen its day, so to speak. You might have a fire, or flood, or storm, or something and destroy that marve- lous library. I told you before that Sir William 0 ler said, that he could not have written his Practice of Medicine, that fourteen volume book on the practice of medicine, but for that library. You see, he was just an hour's

Page  334334 ride on the Pennsylvania Railroad from Baltimore to that library right down here. And remember the old depot at the time he was writing that book was- n't over where it is now. It was right in there about where that Mellon Art Gallery is which meant that he didn't have but a very short distance to walk right down to the library. Run across the park. Thatls right to the library, and he said that if it wasn't for that library, he could not have written that monumental work of his. Billinqs is--well, save every scrap of paper. For a doctor he had a law- yer's attitude, I'm afraid. Ever.vthinq that came in over the transom, everythinq he could qet his hands on, he put a stamp on and cataloqued. He was right. Sure he was. That which might not have appeared very important in that day, today perhaps is of considerable importance, and he was right to take it all. Oh yes. Ilm a firm believer in that, and that is a qood care of the collec- tion. Don't think because I'm not enthusiastic about the architectural de- sign of that building that I have any questions about the fact that they're doing a beautiful job out there so far as the function of the library and purpose of the library is concerned. That's a wonderful institution. I just meant that I would have had a bit more Greek architecture.

Page  335335 Well, when you mentioned the Acropolis, we aqreed. We agreed didn't we. That's right. If we had just had this fellow, William Thornton, who designed this capitol, design that building, we would have had a little different looking building, I think. I don't recall who designed the Library of Congress, but I think it looks a little different. I think it does too, and that's a qreat 1ibrar.y. It sure is a great library. In that connection, you know one of the most interesting debates to be found in our records of debate was when Smithson left that money to be used for the establishment of a library and an institution such as the Smithsonian, whether we'd have a separate insti- ture, the Smithsonian Institute, or whether we would put that into the Li- brary of Congress. After some very hefty and some brilliant debate they decided to set up the Smithsonian Institute. When he left the money, he didn't prescribe it in such a way that fixed the Smithsonian Institute. In other words, he left it to the Congress to make their decision as to how that money should be used, and there were some who said, "Well, what we ought to do is just take it and put it into the Library of Congress, make it a part of the Library of Congress.n Others said, tlNo, we must make it a monument to Smithson" which it is today and quite a monument too. Tremendous. Yes, tremendous monument, and how it has grown since I came here. Gosh, when I came here, we had that one big old red building back behind. Now we've got three or four new buildings up front, got that whole big

Page  336336 building there on modern science and technology. Well, of course, when that Smithsonian Institute was built--if you had built the building, you wouldn't have had anything to put in it. You know what I mean. The whole thing has changed. It sure has. This other buildinq, on the sub.iect of architecture--the Mellon Art Gallery. I remember talkinq to Justice Jackson. Bob Jackson? Yes. - He was a fine man. It was the Mellon Tax Case which--you know, was a struqqle. I remember. Well, he had Mellon in a tree--that's what it amounted to. I quess you could set up an educational trust, but the public had to be able to see it, and it was a little difficult to see these beautiful pictures hanqinq in Mellon's livinq room, and he didn't turn that into a museum, thouqh he got the tax benefit of it, perfect1.v leqal in the twenties, but when the law was changed. Yes, that created this problem. The,y went after him, somethinq in the nature of three quarters of a million dollars in back taxes, and Jackson was the prosecuter. Frank Hoqan was on the other side.

Page  337Jackson was then Solicitor General of the United States wasn't he? I think--well, the first job he had was in 1934, the Bureau of Internal Revenue. I guess he was general counsel over there. Mellon offered this qreat sift, and I remember Jackson sayinq, and I read the transcript, "You're tryinq to smother me with Madonnas." You know, he was on the track of that cat. I understand. Well, you know, but for that trial and offer, we wouldn't have that art qallery . No, and that's a lovely thing--beautiful. I like the architecture of that building. Don't you like the architecture of that building? Yes. - Sure. It has some of the Grecian style in it. It does indeed. Sure, it does indeed. It has some of the Grecian style in it. How did you know Bob? When I was workins at Columbia, I talked with him with a tape recorder. Is that so? 1952, 1953, 1954--to just before he died.

Page  338338 He was a fine man. His death was a tragic thing to me. I think he was told that if he slowed down to a walk, he would have been all riqht, but he was an unwillinq witness to the loss of his own ph.ysica1 power and .just wouldn't do it. Just wouldn't do it. Bob was a mighty fine man. He was someone I could understand--a c0untr.y boy, and you know country boys. I know. One thinq they just cannot stand is beinq made to appear ridiculous. That's right. What were you doing at Columbia at that time? I was workinq in their oral hist0r.y research office. Talk about Bob. Did you ever know Harlan F. Stone? No, he's the fellow who was verv qood to you. Yes. He was the one who was responsible for the buildinq of that Supreme Court. Sure, he took the lead. They were crowded and jammed over here in the capitol. Yes--that lovely little room. I used it as my committee room.

Page  339339 Did you? Yes. It was my committee room and then when; in fact, when Bob Taft was chairman in 1953--that was one of the two years the Republicans con- trolled--it was our committee room. It's a lovely room. Oh, it's a lovely room. I would have liked to have heard an arqument in that room--a circular bench. That's right--a lovely room, and it's just about the same as it was when the Supreme Court used it, or rather when the Senate used it; in fact the great debates between Webster and Clay and Calhoun--just about the same as it was in that time, except for one thing. There was a little balcony that went around there, and they took that balcony down when the court took over. If you go in there now, you can see evidences where the balcony was, because over here you can see where there was a door which led from that balcony, but it's just about the same as it was when the Senate of the United States met there. That was the original chamber of the Senate of the United States. Then when they put the Senate addition on, the Senate moved over and the Supreme Court moved in there, and they stayed there for a good many years. I don't think the new Supreme Court buildinq was read.y until the mid-thir- ties. - 1936. I saw William Howard Taft preside in that room in the capitol.

Page  340340 I saw Charles Evans Hughes preside, and I saw Harlan F. Stone preside. Hughes was an able man. I once asked Judqe Learned Hand of the attornies that practiced before which qave him the best time, or stretched him the most. He said Hughes, didn't he? You know what he said--Hushes would arque before him and was just razor sharp, and qave him such a sense of fear and timidity that he would hear himself say to himself, "Go ahead and ask him a question, you coward!" Isn't that interesting. You know how Huqhes would qo by the clock. If he could save a minute and a half. There's a story in the Frankfurter book about John W. Davis pre- sentinq Huqhes with a minute and a half. Ever,ybody lauqhed, but not Huqhes. He qrabbed that minute and a half and said, "Next case." Davis was a right able man. Did you know him? Yes, I talked with a tape recorder with him too. How long has that fellow been gone now? The last time I heard him, a marvelous arqument, for South Carolina in the seqreqation cases. I think he lived after that for a while because he qot into the presidential power in foreiqn policy. I remember that. I didn't know him too well, but his brother-in-law-- you know, he came from West Virginia.

Page  341341 Clarksburq. His brother-in-law, Pierce McDonald was the pastor of the Church of the Ascension there in my home town of Montgomery and lived pretty much across the street from me there in Montgomery, and I knew Pierce awfully well, and we used to talk about John Davis and all that kind of thing. He was a qreat qentleman. Oh yes--all those men--John Davis, Charles Evans Hughes, Harlan Stone-- ' all of them great men. They were. Did you ever know Fred Vinson--he succeeded Harlan Stone, between Stone and Warren. I served in the House with Fred, served on the same committee with him. Militarv Affairs. That's right. Fred, like Bob Jackson died too young. They both died too young. Bob was an awful nice fellow. Wittv. Yes, he was. With a sort of stiletto in it. I remember being at Harlan F. Stone's home one night for dinner, and Bob and his wife were there; in fact, Mrs. Jackson was my dinner partner, and Bob really stole the show that night. As you say, he had that wit and r

Page  342342 everything. A, deadlv wit. 1'11 tell vou some of the measure of it. The time that Crop- ley resiqned, or retired as Clerk of the Court* there was a little ceremonv, and some of the Justices were there to speak, and I heard Justice Black, for example, say that when he first came to the Court, he didn't reallv know whether he was qoinq to like Cropley or not, but that in the course of time he and Crop1e.v had warmed and now he was sorry to see him qo. When Jackson qot up, he said that the ceremony was a double occasion for him, one to hon- or Cropley and one to hear Justice Black confess error. Wasn't that good. That was Jackson. That was Bob. It was beautiful. He had a way he could sa,v it with .just that little play around his mouth. That was Bob, all right. He was quite a fellow. Too bad he had to go when he did. Pity. Even Justice Black en,ioyed that. I think Bob was disappointed when Fred was named Chief Justice instead of him. I'd heard that. I don't know. He was off in Nuremberq. Yes, he was off prosecuting those cases. He was out of pocket, out of hand. You can't fiqht querrilla warfare from three thousand miles.

Page  343343 That's right. You cannot--no sir. Riqht. It's impossible. You heard what I said about the atomic bomb. I'm glad that you used that word guerrilla warfare. He was out of pocket, out of hand. Had he been here, you might have had a different situation. Oh .yes. You might have had a different situation had he been here, but he was- n't here to take care of his interest. As you say, he was three thousand miles across the ocean, and in that day and time if you crossed the ocean, it would take you two weeks on a boat. President Roosevelt had, I think, wise1.y placed some yo~nqer fellows on that Court, and they all had measure, excitement, insiqht, and I don't expect nine men to aqree. I hardly expect three men to aqree. You and I haven't fully agreed. We have fully agreed on the wonderful function of the National Library of Medicine, but we haven't fully agreed on the architecture and the design of the building of it, although you do admit that you like that Mellon Gallery. I'm with you there, and I like the Acropolis. You like the Acropolis. I was just hopinq that you would come alonq with me and see that National Library of Medicine in a little different vein. Well, you see, here's the thing about it too. You have a tremendous

Page  344344 advantage over me. I don't see it very often. It's way out there at Beth- esda, and I don't get out there very much. You see it day after day, and it grows on you. You have an advantage over me. Then another thing about it--the very fact that they're doing such a wonderful job inside tends to dissipate thought about the outside. That's its measure--to live is to function. That's exactly right. And it does all of that. Does Marty Cummings enJ-7y his job out there? Yes. I know he's busy at it. Did you know Brad Rogers out there? No, I met Dr. Cumminqs in Dr. Shannon's office when he was over there in the foreiqn or international field at NIH. Dr. Cumminqs has a lot of ideas. Oh yes--he's got a lot of ideas. He's right on his toes, 1'11 tell you. I know. He likes to move. You know, Jim's time will be out in about a year, I understand. Who's the man for the job? To run that plant, to do that thinkinq, to be nine feet tall? Some job isn't it. 4

Page  345To have the kind of illumination to think in the terms in which he thinks-- I don't know, Senator. 1'11 keep m,y ears to the qround and my nose to the wind. - Where did you tell me you went to school? Amherst Colleqe. That's what I thought, but then didn't you take a graduate course somewhere? Columbia. Right there at Columbia. What year were you there at Columbia? I qot m.y Ph.D. in 1954. 1954--why did you wait so long? I went to rout those Germans. How long were you in the service? I qraduated from Amherst in 1942, and I was in service from then until 1946, back in qraduate school--first a master's deqree and then a Ph.D. in 1954. What year did you get your degree at Williams. You mean Amherst. I mean Amherst--1 beg your pardon. Williams--we always spelled that school with a small "w" . 1942.

Page  346346 You're still a young man. Sure--most of what vou see, Senator, is mileaqe. I understand. Do you know Kirk there at Columbia? I don't suppose you knew Nicholas Murray Butler. He was a very con- siderable man. There's a lot of radiation from him still there at Columbia. I imagine so. He was a considerable man. You know, at one time he was a contender, really, at the Republican Convention for the Republican nomination. He was quite a man. I think he was a man of too manv ideas for the Republican Part.v--I shouldn't say that perhaps, but I will. I have a book he wrote way back--back about 1915, 1916, 1917--A World of Ferment. What would he write if he were writing today. You know, he was a big man in the Carnegie Peace Foundation. A very considerable man. I don't know what he'd write todav. Did you read Arnold J. Toynbee on this Mideast situation? No, that's qoinq to fester, I suspect, until Israel and Jordan aqree to work out some economic aqreement. They have to.

Page  347Yes, they have to. They're living right side by side together; in fact, they're using the same latrine. Practically. Isn't that about right? Riqht. They've got to work out something. The,vtre probably qoinq to have to take public positions, and that's bad. Yes, that's bad. It makes evervthinq hard and fast--like Kinq Hussein the other dav, but ultimately if there is to be any stability, it will have to come with those two nations and the Jordan River. That would tend to split off that naked hostility the Arabs have had for Israel. Twent.v years of hostility is enouqh. Yes, particularly since you're living right next door to one another. They're right next door to one another. You remember in the old da.vs when one neiqhbor built a spite fence. They did. They sure did. You know, whose apple fell where. That's right--which side. Or what is vour turke.v doinq crossinq my line. We've qotten awa.v from that

Page  348348 kind of thinq 1ocall.v. It's like that damn fence that qoes throuqh Berlin. Think of it. Arb i t r ar i1.p- y ou can't build it hiqh enouqh, Senator. I think I told you this before. One of the most depress-ng days o my life was when I was in Berlin in the fall of 1957--ten years this fall. My wife and I went over and spent a day in East Berlin--just the contrast there between the expression on the faces of the people of West Berlin and the expression on the faces of the people in East Berlin--the difference in the living conditions. Different tone entirely. Yes--different tone entirely. There's a graveyard there with a monu- ment to the Russian dead, and this doesn't sound very human, but after see- ing those East Germans depressed as they were, the thought was, "Pity that there was not more of those Russian soldiers in that graveyard." I should- n't say that. Don't quote that on me. I understand the thouqht. You understand. But in the play of forces that was not to be. That was not to be. That's a central problem too that we confront--unification of that people. And that's only qoinq to come, I suspect, if we can build some kind of

Page  349349 bridqe that is psycholoqically viable between what it is we are and what it is they are. We've got to try to do that, if we can. It will take time, but I think we're more on that road than we were ten, fifteen years aqo. I think that's true. What's encouraqinq, Senator, is the Russian people's love of our modern music and how that modern music is bootleqqed into that country on tape, or whatever. That's encouraging. Damn riqht. It's like our own Volstead Act. You can't impose--qee, .you can't build a wall. They're qoinq to bust throunh it somehow. Well, the more bustinq throuqh we do on the lowest level possible, the better it's qoinq to be because when you qet it up too hiqh and somebody makes an ad- ministrative decision, somebody else is qoinq to qet hurt. Sure. On this level, we can afford to let them dance to our music. I think that's somethinq for the future. Well, I often think--1 remember making a speech up on the capitol grounds in Montgomery--1 spoke about the Poles, splendid God fearing people. Now under a Communist regime, they don't believe in God--you see. I think the.v do.

Page  350Down in their hearts, they're bound to believe in God. You can't erase that kind of impulse. You can't erase that--they don't profess it because they're Communist. Thev can't. They can't--you see. They may be more successful with the .younqer Polish people. Poland was one of the most Catholic countries in the world. And how!--militantl.v Catholic. Yes--sure, militantly Catholic. I told you before that during the war I was down at the Yugoslavian Embassy with some of their leaders-- Massaryk was there and others. They were talking about their postwar plans and what they were going to do. Then Tito and others took over. The bird on the qround. All the loftiest words and plans from Massaryk, and the rest of them--somethins which we can sustain and support, but the fellow on the qround has the last word. You're right. That's true. It's like you voted Democratic in the 1930 because McHenry brought you coal, and you needed coal because you were cold. That's on the ground. It has nothinq to do with idea in a way, and yet it sets in motion a certain momen- tum. - I don't suppose you ever had any contact with Franklin Delano Roosevelt,

Page  351did you? No. - 351 Before your day. Just from a distance. He was a charming man--a charming man. Thinqs happened in the thirties. Oh sure, that was a time of action. Actually I don't remember a happier time than the thirties. We were doing things. Not on1.y that--we were all in the same boat. Yes, we were all in the same boat. We learned how to lack for a little. Remember when he ran for re-election for President in 1936, he carried all but two states--Maine and Vermont--isn't that it? That was almost an embarrassment of riches. It was, wasn't it--it was indeed. It also indicated that the Supreme Court listened to the election returns as Mr. Dooley said. Did you ever know Tom Dewey?

Page  352352 Yes, a stranqe fellow. He must be a strange fellow. I met him once or twice, but never really knew him. I talked to him with a tape recorder. You did. I tell you who was a right considerable fellow and that was Wendell Willkie. He qot a little desperate in the political field in which he found himself. He did. He made a lot of silly comments. He certain1.y threw cold water on the cam- paiqn performance, his testim0n.y on Lend Lease which in part floated us into the world. When he said somethins about "campaiqn oratory" he was candid. Did you ever read his book, One World? He made that trip at the re- quest of Franklin Roosevelt. They had far more in common.... They had much in common. They did indeed. He made that trip at the request of Franklin Roosevelt. Roosevelt had a nose for a qood idea. Oh sure. And quality. He did.

Page  353/I 353 The wa.v he would run his office--it never went off on a clock, really, be- cause if he found somethinn in which he was interested, held push it until he qat all he wanted. Yes, he would--yes, sir. It doesn't affront me that FDR would both take pleasure and see virtue in "One World" and Wendell Willkie for havinq fathered it. He could see ways in which to make it useful, to float it as an impulse, but then he was astute. That's right. Willkie had many good qualities, as you say. I don't know how qood a counsel he was for Commonwealth and Southern. I don't know either. That was back in the Tennessee Vallev. I was on the other side, although you know, after we fought that bat- tle, he sent me an autographed copy of that book, One World. I have an auto- graphed copy by Wendell Willkie.

Page  354354 INDEX


Page  356356 ARMY rnICAL CQLEGE ARm RIvffl 239 281, 282

Page  3579 71, 312 20 260, 262 291 291 278, 219 103 309, 310 39 252 125 58 ss 281, 284 40 40, 75 3 191 193 337 357



Page  360360 342 159 344

Page  361361 UB, a99 331 103, 128, 129 174

Page  362108 176 324 306s 307

Page  363363 BEPATI'MS






Page  369369 40 179 197 93 159 9 95 195, 196 2018 202, 218 68, 69, 87, 102, l.05, 108, 531, 112, 121 137, 19, 152




Page  373373 REXOZOSTRUCTION FIN4NCE CORPOBBT ION RECOBNERSIOEO 221 130, 150 RED, mTEa 80 FtEGIOIUL MEDIC LIBRARIES 313 BEORGA?JIZA!EON ACT, 1946 191 2813 282, 283, 283 285 195 35,306 2k9, 297 217, 218 315 307, 308 260 344

Page  374374 s-ss, IGmz Po

Page  375STlEOaMJlIA FACIA!LUS Tm, WaLLAH HOWBIU) TAUSSIG, BlLEl'? 375 79 222 268 268 235 339 260