Stanhope Bayne-Jones : an oral history [sound recording]
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STANHOPE BAYNE-JONES

STANHOPE BAYNE-JONES final, edited transcripts of tape recorded talks Ui Volume 11 1 " 343 Mational Libraxy of Medicine Bethesda, Maryland 1967

Page  11 Monday, April I*-- 11, 1966 -- A-54, N. L. No Wetve --I-. already talked about thepmers, -1 what I'pe feuaand it should set spinn5.W the years-w+lee jumping jacks a.. years, the years -- of goix - from house to house and the circumstances which gaasjto thato -_.ILu--- From what Ibe t_- seen in the papers, it has had a shaping effect on you, a illumination you can give to that period will be 7- - a biocaphere some researchers who want4 to understand ;you better because you're here to -- z __nuL_ I help explain ito If pxu'11 take me back to those yeare-house to house to house and the circumstances which gave rise to thata - -- I'm not sure that I can do it chronologically straight-unless you tell me from your search on this where I went after my father's death and the from then on, Does t matter? P Wo-cxcept that I think you began this process in the home of Dr. Jose? JOll880 - Yeso Wellp I have very faint recollections of that, except that while I was in the house, I used to be in and out of his office which was an annex built on the $de of the house and in which he saw patients, him some time there. This was a big house on Washington Avenue and Camp Street, right opposite the fire engin e. I would help I would answer the door, sick people coming to the door. e Are the fire engines in those papers? Bi Yes 0 7 Well, I had early impressions of horrible wounds and injuries to people

Page  22 there. could see his teeth and blood. truck, his face. I can remember one evening a man who had his cheek missing, You He had been tending the back end of a lumber The two-by-fours were flapping, and two of them caught the aide of I had a number of experiences like that in that house. Also the house was full of the most strange things, Biy grandfather collected Egyptian Mummies, and he had a great many specimens of snakes in all sorts of containers, both He had great interest in snakes, poisonous snakes, in his office and outside in another building that he put shacko He collected Indian remains, He had aU. sorts of had dug up in the Harp th River Valley in Tennessee after i up, a little wooden remain8 that he the Civil War. He had case8 and cases lining the halls with Indian relics, tomahawks, pipes, arrow heads, bows, everything that you could think ofo S Then he got interested in models and specimens of riflee, awords, breat 4 plates, armor, He had a full suit of armor and great, big, two-handed swordso I can remember once in the side yard I put on a heavy breast plab that must have been uaed by one of Crc3olwell's Ironsidera and got my friends to hit me witffi a two-handed sword, It knocked =e down, I couldn't get the breast plate off and had to lie there on the ground. He also collected Aztec things-he herd great carved heads of serpents Lv' from Mexico around in the house tith these snaka bite things projecting above thema He collected books galore-he had a remarkable libra distributed. After his death it was sold for what little it would bring. It ich was later + was bought by the man who was the librarian of Kings County Medical Society in Brooklyn, and it $ mostly there now4 They didnst identif'y the sources of their books. Jones books in there any moreo Lk They just put them on the shelves, and yo4 can't find Joseph He collected these Indian skeletons and bones of all kinds, and they went

Page  33 ultimately to the Museum of t bought them , American Indian in New York City. Mr, Heye 4 Well, now all this--lln sure all this had an effect on me, for arousing interest in the first place in the medical things that I talked about and in the second place in archhology, or paleopathology as they call it mostly. Recently there was 8 conference on paleopathology at the National Research Council ef the Nationaa Academy here in Washington-two years ago-organized by Dro Saul Jarche, He invited me to discuss a papero I had no right to be there, that I kid never dug up awning but maybe some dead rabbits, and that the only reason that I felt I could cite for being in this privileged position was an hereditary privilege from my grandfather, that conference indicated essentially a revival of interest in paleopathology in the United States, and a general society is now being formedo e, I got up and saidthat Now I can trace a great maw things back to the influence of my grandfakher-- more than my father influenced mee My father did influence me in medicine bel cause he would take me into his-I would call it a sort of dispensary, or effice in that home on Howard Avenue by Lee Circle. I can remember helping him wind bandages there. He had a kind of twisted, angular wire over a cigar bsx, and I would turn the crank on this thing, and the bandages would roll placa, sick people in that upe but not very extensively. I got used to seeing him take care of some To me it was a very happy sort of a beginn ng, I ran srouad w and I was treated respectfully for a childo I can remember-I have somewhere, and you may have seen it, of myself in Lord Fauntleroy*s clothell. Md you find it? th friends, a picture velvet Yes, I did, I put it over there in the corner with the rest of the photographs,

Page  44 Well, I fell in the gutter in that suit one day. New Orleans had n@ drainage system in those times. along the sideo Whenever the rain came, the streets were flooded, and we wed to go out ad awimP in the streeta. about eight feet, and they have a huge pumping system that clears the cityo Even when I grew up there were street gutters Urn, they're reduced the water table by \y Well, there ere lots of interesting things to doe At that time I would 4 occasionally go over to Biloxi, Mississippi, where Mrso Denegre, my "Tante Eftp had a place called ttWalualt, and play on the beach, go sailing, fishingo would see my brother and sister over there nore than I wauld sometimes in New Orleans. I Was Dr. Jones something of a chemist? Yes, he was a Professor of Chemistrye Yes, I forgot to mention thato house was just full of his chemical things, and he did same srigind. work in chemistry, The Apparently you did too in the gold fish pondo I wasn't doing chemistry in the gold fish pondo I was a biologp t that a moment, trying to see whether a fish would survive under a flame that was twelve feet in diameter,, thought it would be. I think it was gaseline-or coal oil that I poured on the pond. It got out of hand. It was much bigger than I My grandfather 1st me have rabbits in the back yard. I built rabbit pens, and the darn things would dig out from under all the time. I had dogs, especially a little Fox Terrier that I was very fond of called llVixenllo that house they had to punish me a good deal because I was unruly and pretty wild. In I did a great many things that I don't look back on now with any pride,

Page  55 but they did punish me a good deal. punishments, would come down with a pair ef ice tongs and put them around my ribs and take me awayo Do you know what ice tongs are? Two I remember-a series of frightening li'hey told me that if I continued to be bad like that, the moon Yes--the hooks Yes, and the other punishment I remesaber aroused my sense of humor very much, Om of my uncles decided that he would take me up in the attic of this big house and give me a whaling with a trunk strap, I started to run around the attic, and I can remember dodging behind these upright two-by-fours that support a slightly sloping roofo He d whale at me, and the leather thong would curl arsund one of these uprights, and he'd have to stop to untangle him- I A self and the leather, I remember all these purnislnnents in more or less an amused fashiono My aunt, Mrso Denegre, "Tante Ellt was a very modest person, and I can remember when she had to spank me, she said,"Stanhope, come over here, take down your pants, and bend over." Then shegd drape my buttocks with a towel and then spank meo How gentle. Also she used to spank ne with a piece ef silver which made me blush every I / time I would look at it, and L've seen plenty of them, If you get spanked with a repoussd af roaes standing out against silver, you It s a Kirk repousse. m get a ld; of red, I think I had a great deal of corporal punishment. I guess so. But it had an amusing side, I can still laugh at it somewhat. One time

Page  66 one of them was paddling me with a lady's slipper and the slipper broke while I was being spanked, flew off and knocked something off a bureau. it was a wcnderful joke, I thought Another side of that life was that I had much time to myself out om the streets, The neighborhood where mybandfather lived was right on the verge ef Magazine Street, a block away, which is the verge of a hoodlum district. had a great many street fights at that time, and I developed some cautisno I also had a knightly sense because one of my aunts gave me Howard Pylt's book, When Knighthood was in Flower, so I rememer this punishment that a street ruffian gave me. I went aut an the street and challemged him by putting a chip on my shoulder. Itd read that he had to knock a chip off my shoulder to start somethingo the chip eff, but on the way to knock the chip off, he broke ay nose and knocked me down. I I put a chip on my shoulder, and he swung wide. He knocked Did you run free? - On the street? Ye$, I was not a part of a kang. 1 was different. I wasbn a higher social status than the gang that was running, They would mostly persecute me. Was there just your grandfather, Dr. Joseph Jenes, in the house? No, there was aty Aunt Susie ad my Aunt Kamie, Mrs, Bringier, Susie Jones It was a was there, and my Aunt Frances was living there and Hamiltsn Jones. great big house in New Orleans. , __ . - ~ -

Page  77 All of them had a hand in these pu n/ments? You said %heyft. Yes, I think of them as a groupo fsTheyll then includes all of them. I don' t remember that there was any division among them r egarding myself. Certainly I felt closest to my Aunt Susie, but I don't remember playing one off ahainst another. My Aunt Susie was a very erson who, I think, cared for me a great deal., 86d they also have fun with you? from the unpleasant? Can you remember pleasant times as distinct I think they had ome fin chasing me around all over the placeo 6 "What will that boy do next'' That's righto I could think of all sorts of things to do,, I might as well tell you while we're on this subject that I had some gun powder and I lit some of it on a window sillo powder blew back in the house and frightened everybody,, floor, so they locked me in a roomo but in that room I discovered some shot gun shells and a magnifying glasso day, I unleaded these shells and made a train of ponder from the window ledge along down to the fire place on which I had quite a shable bunch or" powder by the end of the dayo and with the magnifying glass-f didn't know that it was going to set the thing on fire. got the sun on the powder and shh-you know how it goeso All of the smoke from the gun It was on the second I can remember to this day working all I sat there and waited until the sun cane by the windew I thought it was just an interesting scientific experiment, but I It went all up againo

Page  88 I got another spanking for that, but that was an achievement of the scientific method, I guess they let you out nf that roomr I've forgotten what happened nexto Were fire arms part of the order of the day? Did you do a bit of hminting, or no? Did people generally have this? Oh yesQ tent hurlting and SO did my uncles go huntingo Firearms were around the placeo Like sppons and kniveso Peso I don't know where I get those shella. I don't remember a shot gun, but there was a bQx of shells in that room. country and still iso Liuisiana was 8 great hunting 5 My brAther got to be a great shoto Was the family a family of readers-apart from Dr. Jpseph Jones who collected books to whet his curiosity? When you say "the familyrr, are you talking about the Joneses? Yes, the Jomses. Not particularly, They read a good many things, but it was Joseph Jones who collected the books, and curiously enough, my recollection is that the books that he chiefly collected are the ones he mete himelf* He published

Page  99 four huge vol?unes and did it at his own expense, and all of the upstairs, the second floor, and part of the downstairs ?lined with book shelves containing these volmes--maybe thousands of themo Nobody beught them, and he didnft give them all awayo I had a good many sets, and there are a lot of them around still My Aunt Frances was a reader and an artist, and they had--all the ladies had, but particularly Frances and probably Mamie, a very literar New Orleans called Grace King. friend in c 4 Do you know of her? My Aunt Frances illustrated one of Grace fing's books. flew Orleans, The Place and the People (New York, 189517. literary figure, and every week these ladies would meet, and they would discuss Grace King had a salon. She was a some very serious subjecto There were a number of these literary societies among the ladies in New Orleans called the Geographics, or the Blue Stockings, Mollie Msore Davis had a salon. She was the daughter of Jefferson Davis. Yes, that is described in one of the papers--Mollie Davis' salon and the people who frequented it. All of that in there? Yeso But you indicate that some members of the Jones family: gave it a kind of creative, artistic flavor---?Yances f;. Joneso Oh yes, Frances could draw very well with pen and ink mostlyo And made potteryo Newcomb College was built just across the street from this house, a sort of huge, renaissance building with She taught art at Newcomb Collegeo

Page  1010 other buildings. Mr, bllsuortg Woodward-I think his name was. There was an artist and historian , a potter named t Well, I don't remember but Newcorcb was built there, Jones taught in it. Pottery that they invented, so to speak-glazed and baked themselves, Newcomb had an art department, and Frances They had a particular kind of pottery called Newcomb The place was full of myths and curious things. For instance, they had two iron lions on the stairway outside the steps of Newcomb Cdlege, and somebody told me that if I was lucky I would hear them roar some night, spent many a night trying to hear these lions roar, I They didn*te There was a marvelous fire engine right across the street with great big horses that would cone plunging out, and that was a great thrill, The house was a great, big, rambling, ghost-like place, and I was very frightened at times in it--didn't know what was behind the door,, Well, they lived a pretty good life there. They had a cook, maids, and a chosckwan. 'hey had an outhouse and a carriage and They had Negre servants all the time, I1 a horse. patientso My grandfather would go to Tulane for classes in it, and to see his It didn't That horse and buggy is in the inventory of his estateo 0 Mdnft you indicate that this house is no linger there? \ It's still thereo I have a beautiful picture of it, but it went to New I Orleans with his papers. work on balconies so that I could start on the ground level and put my tees in between iron roses and climb three storieso It s stU1 there. It had a wonderful lot ef iron Yeso the front, I don't remember that it was three stories,, I think there is a picture in the papers of that house with the iron on

Page  1111 It was two long stories and an attic, a flat attic, Yes e - Something I was going to tell you went right out of my head. Is this the house in which you were born? NO,, The house in which I was born was on Howard Avenu near Lee Circle, a 185 Howard Avenue, Yes, and my brother ad sister were b( there too, Also Joseph Jones was greatly interested in Confederate receru and re After the Civil War, he became Surgeon General of the United Confederate Veterans, and he used to near a grey uniform, mostly part tine, not a regular military cut uniform, but it leoked like one, and he was collectin many records of the sick and wounded and the rosters of regiments and companieso A good many of them are published in the Southern Historical Journalo great Q de interests, didn't he? I Oh yes* Terribly wideo He was a traveler in this country and then he went to Europe in 1871, and that's when he bought all the Jenners, three editiors of Jennerts great work on the small pox vaccination with cow pox, and those originals that he bought are still in the Brooklyn Kings County library, he was Health Officer of the State of Louisiana. on the management and prevention of small pox, and in that work he put the He came back at that time, and He got out B great big book

Page  1212 three original Jenner volumes including copies of the plates, just more or less in an order to his own fancy,, organized i somewhat, and Dr, Harvey Cushing has told me that this is the most remarkable Jenner in existence, very r#-I nouldntt say blerizad, but it's the kind of thing Joseph Jones would do, if he wanted tea Although he didn't change the text, he re- ti \I 2 He'd put his own gloss oyt it, He was also deeply interested in malariao Oh yes. *'m pretty sure that he saw the malaria parasite six years before the man that is credited with discovering it* the Medical and Surgical Journal of Louisiana. caseo and *,m sure that he saw ito in intestinal lesions in Andersonville Prison in 1864, and that's a good many years before Berth, the German, is credited with ito It was published in 1876, in It all appears in a murder It was his testimony that he gave in a murder trial, Narcisse Arrieux, Ifm sure also that he saw the typhoid bacillus Was the house set up with a laboratory? Yes, he had two laboratories. one laboratory wa n that office where he He could examine blood, and he was pretty sk did urine tests and other tests. good on blood. trial the judge asked him,llWill you name the diameters and dimensions of the red blood cells of all the vertebrates?:: He was not shy about showing off his knowledge because in this So he recites in this trial the size and shape and dimensions of alligstor blood, elephant blood--any kind of blood becausc he had studied that with Joseph hidy and published a Sraithsonian monograph on it. his interest in snakes ran on to the end because the last paper he ever published appeared in the Journal of the American Medical Association, and the Curiously enough

Page  1313 title was "The Ophidians"* alligators as ophidians, but he would write that word-just like his charactero ??ow, people as a rule don't speak of snakes and When you stayed at the home, he was pretty old at the tine wasn't he? No, h as born in 1833, and he died in 1896, so that he was sixty-ihree Speaking of the influence of rrry grandfather, I have + years old when he died, found that as I have gone along, I do things, have done things, just as he did them. I wasn't aware of that until I read some of his letters, or his jourqls, or in his books what he did about thingso way he worked and I would do things the way he woih do them without knowing ito I think it's an atavis%ic trait come in theres I worked just about the Procedure determines the end, - -=- - Well, it had an Influence on me in another way because it impressed me so much that I was doing things in the manner of my grandfather that I thought that I certainly could not outlive the life span that he had because he seemed a very old man to me. He was sixty-three, He died when he was sixty- three. I never expected to live beyond sixty-three. Irrn now seventyeight+ P That could have a disastgrous effect because I've had an uncle, my Uncle / Charlie, who was an engineer, a geologist--what do you call a man who goes aroud looking for gold and minerals? Prospector, and he went to Alaska at one time-I think around the gold Thetahe came back and settled down around rush time, and he got some gold,

Page  14l4 Los Angeles and was one of the early itwesters in the coal fields out there. Is that in the papers? Yes, it is, __. Mr, Kaiser-the Kaiser plant is out there because of this fuelo Well, my Uncle Charlie was in a very low state the last years of his life, apparently had no money, was in a boarding house and I had a letter somewhere from him te:ling me that he was sorry that he was living so long, that he expected to die years before and had spent his money, and that now he had out- lived his sustenance. He We used to help him, Is this the 'Jncle __I Charlier.oa He was with my father in West Virginiao ou dtt_seeyour father much after 189h? 3- No, I only have one recollection of him about that time, and that was down in that boarding house on St, Charles Avenue, about four blocks above as,, least thaq where he was in a small little bedroom in the back ell of the house on the second floor, and I remember seeing him once there, but I don't remember anything else, At Rut he had been staying at your grandfather's houseo Well, if he did, I don't remmber that,, I suppose he was, but I donrt think he was at my grandfather's house very long, was he? A- No not accordingto thessapersp

Page  1515 You describe a great free lunch counter that a kid can absorb in a house such as your-xandfatherts with arrews and the like. discoveries that you can go through. - -- a__)- -e* It's like a series of steady __ -I_ ---L__- -, Yes, and all of it is still with me and had an influence on meo I'm sure that my grandfather, probably more than my father, influenced me to go into medicine because I went into the stud:,. of medicine without giving it a second thoughtp I never had any doubts and I never had any agony such as some of my classmates a ale had in trying to decide what profession they were going into, For me it was all settled by the stars long agoo + That's as good a way as 9 I know of . Yeso It mi ht have been a tandem thing too because you were with your Dad in his 2---- I office tooc Yes before. mu -u-- had the two, It gas in the air you breathed, Yes, that's certainly truea What relationship as of 1894, didyou have with the Baynes? the other side of the family, the legal side, The Baxnes are -I___ e* I can% pin it down to the year exactlyo I just say 1894, which is the year of gour mother's death,, - Yesg Well, the one that I remember best is my "Tante El1, #rso Edith Denepee c

Page  1616 She married George Denegre, and she was the boss of that side of the familye She used to boast of the fact that she was know "she who must be obeyed", but she was a very ch wasn't very well. and she was never-well, I would say she was a very vigorous invalid-if you know what I mean,, s a young woman there as .B +I! ing and lively person, She She had some severe surgery shortly after her marriage, She was an invalid, but she did everything that she wanted to do, and she ha determining influence on where I'd go and what I did and wheno eople doing a lot of things for her. She had a great SP The next Bayne that I remember is my Uncle Thomas Levingston BBne, and I remember him because he took me in to his house-he and his wife Gretchen took me in. They had three children already, so I was extra in that crowdo They lived first, 3s I remember it, down on 610 Royal Street which is down in the French Quarter near the VSeux Card, in a great big house with one of these old court yards, funny creole things. no kin, of course, except through marriage. in Louisiam, the Governor Nichols family, and she was apparently a very lmely person and gay-aaybe a bit of a faddist. of hero When I was down on Royal Streetp she did something that has kept me from eating honey the rest of my lifeo My Aunt Gretchen was a Huller, She came from a very fine family I have a medical recollection Really? I was sick, and she thought I ought to have an emetic, so she made a soup, a tea out of violet leaves and put honey in ito threw up, and I cannot take any honey. As soon as I drank it, I That's a chancy thing;,

Page  1717 Isn't that a silly thing to put on the tapel Not at all, It's the sort of thing that comes to mind, - Well, they used to go to Russellville, Tennessee, which is a little town in the mountains near Knoxville, every summer. Several mers we went there, and that was a very primitive place. there. in those marble bearing hiller. loose againr 1 Everybody seemed to get typhoid fever 1 didn't get it, Thatwas a wonderful experience though to roam arbund I had a pretty free life because I was on the Then they came back to New Orleans-now, Ism up to about 1898, They came back to New Orleans and buiU a house on 8th Street between St. Charles and Prytania, right next door to George Denegre. The yards were continuous, and I lived in that house with my "Uncle TL", as I called him, Aunt Gretchen, and their three children, T. L, Bayne, William L. Bayne, and Edith, a daughtero I guess I was a good deal of a nuisance because I can remember being 3ocked up in roms again and shrieking so that they could hear me all over the block, batting en the walls, trying to get out0 This is your mother's brother. Yes, and then1 used to visit with my mother's sister, Mrs. Vaught, Did you run across her? Yes Mrs. Vaught had a punishment that I think conditioned ny inability to keep and I would do something that my check book, I would go down to th Mrs. Vaught'a children would be playing in the yard. aughtla with my brother and sister, i

Page  1818 required my being locked up again, and this time they locked me in the back stairway. closed in part going from the first floor to the second floor,, little cut window in the side of the wall far higher than I could stand on any- thing to reach,, paper, a yellow sheet, as I remember it, with figures on it and tell me to add it up and if I could add it up right, I would get out. Instead of adding it up I used to rush up and I would look at the figures on this yellow sheet and put down a number and stick it under the dooro out because I hadn't really added it up. this again. I could see them and this little wind0 afternoon. there wasn't any need to keep me there. ever since then if I sit dam with a column of figures in front of me, I just get the dithers,, It was a long house ith a long wooden stairway and a kind of It had one I could see out of ite 'They would give me a long sheet Qf down the stairs an scream and beat on the wall. Then d It would come back with my addition, my sum scratched Then I would have to go through Meanwhile my brother and sister would be playing out in the yard, ould 11 el the sun come through toward + il: I never did let that column ef figures added upo It got dark, and lhey could send me somewhere else, but You want to reach for those stairea No, I get the dithers and make o many mistakes, I'm fascinated by mathe- \ matics. calculus onceo Itve taken course after course, and I got part way through into I thin 't's a beautiful subject. The thing that thrilled me d + y was that I found that if you differentiate twice the equation of One T a falliw body, you can come out with a value of the force of gravity-just by monkeying with the figures, but I can not work the materials because I make sas many transpositions without even knowing that I have done it, I canrt even see the mistakes, Are you that way?

Page  1919 I can't see the mistakese I get telephone numbers backwardso I don't trust myself at all when it comes to check books. To me 35 is just as valid 53. I trace all these things back to this experience with the Vaughts. You see, the daynes come in for disturbing my mathematical genius. Then I can remember another experience with the TL Baynes in 1898-there were two wars about that t 1899, and the other was the Boer War, and I can remember sitting=-I was climbing up on the back fence there on 8th Stree men going down to get on tsansports to go off to the Spanish-American War. That influenced me in a martial sense a great deal, sold thousands of mules to the British, and these troops of mules with soldiers taking them down there influenced me a good dealo terested in Civil War relics and Civil War Museums and would hang around them. I had lmost as strong a feeling from the beginning for military things as medicine o . One was the Spanishderican War, briefly in 4 nd could see blue uniformed + In the Boer War they I always was in= b S Well, was there any continuity with the Jones @de of the family while you were with the TL Baynes? \ Yes, I'd go off to see them sometimes. Oh, one period in there I actually lived-Ilm not sure of the date-kith my Aunt Wamie. and they had a plantation up in Ascensicn Parish, Louisiana, about sixty miles north of New Orleans, a plantation called "TeZcucoRa summers, certainly one summer, and I had very severe rnalaria in that place. P"y Uncle Trist was a mystical sort of a figure who was in and out of the house with a shot gun, accompanied by two dogs, two pointers, or two large She's Mrs. Eringier, I went there several

Page  2020 setterso He shot quail all through thereo There was sugar. It was a sugar plantation. where these paddle wheel steamers, old show-bost-type things would go by against the sky., There were great, big oak trees there, so that I could build a house way up in an oak tree, and nobody could find meo The grass, flowers growing--it was a good ante-$ellum house. The Nississippi River was about a half a mile from the front door ; Now that happened in a couple of years, but not for the whole year, paper down there You can probably find the dates in some - She's mentioned in this 1900 problem of schooling. This was a convenience in a way to allow you to get out of New Orleans for the summer time, or whenever it was0 In sane of these episodes with the Joneses in ways that I never understood I would be transferred back temporarily to the Baynes, mucha Prytarda and 8th Streets when a little cart drove up with a Negro on it, pulled by a horse, I guess, and on it was a little trunk and a little white iron bed, and they brought the bed and trunk into the houseo by that metamorphosiso I recall this very I was playing with my brother and sister at Mrs. hnegre's house at I changed houses Nobody asked me. Just baggage Don't think that I'm reciting this with any particular grief because I just took it as it Cameo Part sf the order of existence,, I wasn't embittered, I was bad in many ways, as you would call it, but I

Page  2121 don't think I was on the verge of juvenile delinquency which is supposed to happen in a case like this. Well, you know, having a place where you were secure-you had a hero kind of attitude toward Dr, Joseph Jones, and by comparison everyone else must have paled just a little bit, They didn't have-you know, the accumulated things that he had around to keep you occupied, keep you intrigued, Oh, going back to the things that Joseph Jones had-he had brass cannon, and we used to load those cannons with gun powder and nails and fire them off in the backyard-anything, A wonderful time Then the other thing that comes in about this is my going to Mxon Academyo Did you find anything about that? Just a brief mention of it, Well, Mxon Academy was a boy's school at Covington, Louisiana which is ti across Lake Pontchatrain, behind northwestern New Orleans. who ran the school was the son sf the President of Newcomb College, family knew the Dixons very well and somehow or other I got to Dixon Academy in the period-I would say 1900 to 1905, somewhere in there, now, but that was a boy's school in which they had pretty good standards, was there, and I played baseballo I got tremendously interested in water moccasins, those square boxes?-en my side and wander around in the swamps. very strange river that went back of that school. long time before I got there, a branch over the stream. Mr. William Dixon My Jones I It's hazy to me I I used to go out with a little leather Kodak box-you remember fhey had a I could smell a moccasin a "hen I'd find this creature dozing on a log, or I had a forked stick, and Itd go put it over his

Page  2222 neck and put him in the box-you know, these are very poisonous, big mouth snakes-and bring them back to schoolo of that school and the principal didn't know it, on newly hatched chicks that belonged to the principal of the schoolo think that it was stealing chickens. moccasinso theme I didn't catch many of them,, I had twenty moccasins in the cellar I was feeding those moccasins I didn't I just thought that I was being good to These creatures didn't frighten me any, and Ipas fascinated with I caught black snakes and king snakes. They had coral snakes too, but They are the deadliest, aren't they? The moccasin is a pretty bad one tooo What did you do with them in the cellar? They all got loose, One night they all got 1008eO Oh manb I had themo Ild Just go down and look at them and talk to themo Was it ever discovered? I mess it wasa Oh yes, Then another thing that I never doubted was that I was going to Yale, My My Uncle Hugh I had plenty of extra tasks at Dixon because of various behavioro grandfather, Thomas Lo Bayne, was in the class of 1847 at Yaleo daym waa in the class of 1892, 2nd I had been brought up on Uale, so I was always sure %hat Iwas going there, but nobody gave me any directions for the mapping of my course of study, everythinge I studied history. I got pretty far in Greek, In Latin I got .3 At Dixon Academy I took a little bit of

Page  2323 up as far as reading a part ef Virgil. I had French, It was a pretty good schooling, but it was not very well organized. In 1905, Mr, Denegre had a hand in sending me-no, I had gotten by that time, around 1905, back under the nominal control of the Denegreso livi+th them, I was off at this boarding school, and it was about that time, 1901, or 1902, that I came back from Dixon Academy one Christmas and found that Mrso Denegre andMr, Denegre had hyphenated me. about that either, me, but later I found that I had to be known as Bayne-Jones, and it had a tre- mendous influence immediately en my life and has ever since been influential. In the first place, when I was Jones, I sat in the middle of the alphabet, in the middle of the classroom and inconspicuously. When I got to be Bayned-ones, Iwasn't They didn't ask me I didn't care. It didn't seem to make much difference to I was In the Bs and sat in the front row, so that I was questioned much more than I was when I was in the comfortable mediocrity of the Js, I began to study more. That's wonderfulo To continue with tnis hyphen--I became self-conscious of my name, and I don't believe people as a rule are self-conscious of their names, explain, and I still do, that my name is Bayne-Jones and listed under B. still Is a nuisance because people come to Washington and look me up in the telephone book undar J and think I've movedo calls that wayo Trust Company for going on tweq years, or moret and every time they change the tellers I have to explain to them that a ch ck and they look it up under J and they say,"I'm sorry, but you have no I had to It I've nissed a good marly friendly In addition, I've had an account at the berican Security and e card is under B, so I ge and present 4

Page  24It money Yre* Well, I've had a deposit there for twelve years, and I have to explain my name+ over and over and over again. It has the advantage-well, it s got two advantages. 1 one is that it helps me to sort out my friends. people who misname me and call me nr, Bence-Jones, I know right away that they are chemists, people call me BurneJones, I always turn on the literary parlance, or whatever you want to call it. mine. have been elected president of at least three scientific societies because pople think I'm Jones-4, and they think that the list put out by the n' inating committee is in order of preference; whereas the nominating committee is putting out a list alphabetically and people tend to check off the first name on the list and being moved from the Js to the Bs I have been first on quite--well, practically all these lists, and I get all the votes. There was a great chemist named Bence-dones, and There was a great poet and artist named Burnedones and when I can tell their backgrounds by the fact that they mistake The other thing is that I'm quite sure that it ha6 been a reason why I D t" That's a facts It's an ill wind, That's a good one. Tell me this-did they ever give you any rationale as to why this was done- the Baynes being Uncle George and "Tarlte E"? Yes, my opinion is that they hated the Joneses. They did? They hated the Joneses, thought it was disgraceful to be identified with

Page  25the Joneses, practically told me 008 That's strange because there's nothing-well, she writes you very gentle and tender letters Who? "Tante E", (?h yes, sureo Thatasn't meo It was the Jones people that they didn't think well of--my fathero name, and Jones was just run of the mill. Also they tholight that Bayne was a diatinguished That's the feud aspects of this, Yes, that's why I say-and I love both sides of the Pamily--I1m a missing link between two families in IL feud, They did this without consulting youo Yes, I came back from Dixon Academy and found that I had been hyphenated. Well, to finish out about this Dixon Academy and Yale, My Uncle George through Yale friends had heard about the Thacher School which is in the Ojai Valley in California,, where, I thinka and we lived in good old California ranch buildings. and you took care of him yourself, and you roamed all over the country in parties, up in tk mountains, camping--wonderfull I was going to Yale, and I had no orderly preparation for Yale, so I prepared really for Yale in one year out thereo It was four.ded by Sherman Day Thacher in the 90s same- It was an excellent school, forty boys and about ten masters, Every boy had a horse, lhey looked me over,, At the end of that year I took nineteen en-

Page  26trance examinations for Yale, and I failed ody Advanced Algebramagain rny mathematics, lrie played baseball and rode horseso it with me, but it was all done in a year out there. I don't know how they did The reason I think it was easy for Mre Denegre to send me to Thacher School in 1905, I guess, was that he was a very inportant railroad attorney, He was the attorney for the Louisvilleshville Railroad, and attorney for the Southern Pacific, and all of us travelJed on passes in those days. home from Thacher School just for Chrl)nas week on a pass, and later I I came 1 travelled to Yale on a pass, so having a pass, way, as easy enough to do it that Tell me somethingmore about that school-people, teachers, 'What about Dixon - I- - -- *--- I- School? Xas theremanyLeople -- - that - fire --c_ imamation there? -_uI__ Dixon didn'to Mr. Dixon-I forget his full name now-was a tall, austere mano He lived much to himself, though we saw him in classes and in the dining reom, and then I think he would have certain evenings when he would read Dickens, or something, to the boyso come to me after a while--a big, hearty man who influenced us a good deal in sports-basketball and baseball. My professor of Greek vas a shy, little man, and he inflaenced my morals irnfavorably because he was afraid-I being his only scholar, so that when the time for the examination came, he gave me a set ef questions, and he also gave me a dictionary, 8 grammar, and a trot, He went out of the yoom, locked me in the room again, so I got a high mark. There was a chemist there whose name will It's a great language incidmtally, quite apart fromyour experience with ito I---- --- ---u_-u_- Oh, marvelous--I like it. No, I don't remember the characters at Dixon

Page  2727 Acadeary that way very much, recollections-makes. Curiously my recollections are mostly earthy Yes--well, that traces back to Grandfather Jones, -- - In those days we had a good nany fist fights in Louisianag In the school? - In Louisiana, It was a ritual. See that knuckle? Well, I broke it on the side of the baseball pitcher's head one day. He was taller than I am-he was six feet tall, and I reached up and hit him on the head. beat me for about a half an houro The ritual was interesting, This fight began because we were both in love with the postmistress who was about three times as old as each of us, 3rd I said to him one morning,"Did you say what I heard you had said to that lady?" 1 broke my fist, snd I couldn't tell him. He wouldn't stop, and he He said,llGoddam yorr, what is it to you?tt So I had a -uI- Saturba ?henin --- Post in my hand, and I >"as still a knight, so I slapped him in the face %nth the Saturday Evening- Post. then but we arranged to meet about a week later in the evening on ",he basket- ball field, and thatts when 1 had this fiat fj.;hto Nothing happened -- Another one showing you the ritual t;as at Biloxi a little later,, a young lady riding. and took her riding. Sk had a horse and at Br?avoir near Jefferson Davis' house her horse stumbled, 2nd she fell over the neck of the horse. I took I borrowed my dncle George's horse without asking him L She was

Page  2828 riding my uncle's horse, and the horse started to go off down the bushy road,, I looked at her, 2nd I saw that I couldn't do very much, but there was my uncle's horse going off, so I dashed after and caught th horse. When I came back she was sitting up and rather angry because I had shown no chivalry at all i football player, and he challenged me to fight. I kr to wait two weeks for that fight-worse than Cassius Clay's periods, but it was-iwell, we had secondso We exchanged insults, and you had to wdt and calm down, and then you had to get all mad againo f pite of being a southerner. She had a friend who was a powerful, young \ -' 4- Was this a sought thing-something that you sought? What? That was in the ritual of the life of the boy in Louisiana at that time, Whet do you mean by sought? Was this the sort of thing that you would look for? --- Oh noo I was scared to daath,, I wond'ered, -_I_ I think tlia others were tooo but you had. to do to That was the moreso What about the Thacher School--since they prepared you for Yale? - -I They were awfully good, strong characterso Some we liked, and some we didn't. read tb the boys gathered after supper in a big roomo Mro Sherman Day Thacher was the headmaster, and every evening he would He was a bit remote, but

Page  2929 a stern disciplinarian. man, a national tennis champion, and we admired him no endo He taught Latin. We had a very interesting professor of physics who taught us some physics and chemistry, a Mr. Avard Lo Dodge. brought me through all this Latin-he just gave me a trot, a translation, would read it and remember it--that is, for a while. He had a brother, Willian Le Thacher, who was a big The way they got me along, the way Mr, Thacher I In the light of subsequent things, how did the physics and chemistz..oe Physics and chemistry were elementary things at that theo Was there a laboratory available? Yes, the school had a smalb laboratory, I did at Yale mediocre work in chemistry and less good in physics, Physics required too much mathematics. I'll get into physics later when I finish up on telling you some more aboat getting ready for Hopkinso I think we've gone about as far as we ought to go todayo 4 You're getting - tired? Yes. Well, that wasn't so bad, was it?

Page  30Wednesday, April 13, 1966 A-54, N. L. .- M, h 4 I have been wondering since the other day when we talked, wether you hadany thOU@tSA FbsUt it. My recellectiea is that it seeaed a little jumbled up to ae, but I dsn't know hew you srdered it. I liked it. I transaribed it, and it'sgeod, IS it? Yes, for the~urpose we originally talked abeut, it's geod-%!%e two cmps, in effect, but I want te e back today and pick up some themes which we may have overlooked. They nq- re, I don't know, fa thia thing recording now? Yes. Religion is-you know, a straago tUa t of the inlisritanso that om lua, and I wonderod about yours in this pin ball process that you had-hw much continuity there wa8, know0 how %mpertsat it was, how much it figurrd. I don't - Well, I think rather early in my life, perhapa because of this no.Biag around frm ow doctrine to another, I got a feeling that there was a great difference between %hat I later learned to call religion 8s distinct fraa theology. ahriatend a Catholic. My mether was a CathoEie, am3 she wan a Catholic because my grandfather, !l'homaa Levingston Bayne, embraced catholicism, a8 they salcl, on the death bed of his Wifa, and that was! carried over to his children. My Now, I went through a Catholic phaae--as a matter of fact, Iwaa

Page  3131 brother and sister were brought up 'atholic, but the DeDegre family that brought them up are very liberal Catholic8. They are not oppressed by the regulations of the diocese, or the church, so I think I very early noticed 8 distinction between the inner deep feelings pu might have about the ngysterries of the universe and 80- controlling influence. God, except uhen I was threatened with him like that story I told you about the moon, so I had no strict continuous theological, ormligious upbringing by aw$body OR $he Denegre, or Bsyne side, but when I lived with my grandfather Joseph Jonea0 a very strong Presbyterian influenee came to bear through , #cillard, who wa8 a mlnirter in the Presbyterian Church, and that HQ~ a low and painful experience for me because I would hsve to go to church in the mornings-has it stopped? I never believed in a living Nos it's going fine, I would have to go to church in the mornings, and then cme back to a big nid-day SundeJ dinner. Then I can remember sitting on the side porch with the older members of my family--whoever they were, and I cannot reuaewber naw-and I was required to give the gist of the sermon. Sunday ceremonies very much as I might have done otherwise. severe sort of lesson because I wa8 supposed to say something that fit in with what the minister had ssid. That didn't nake me love those It was a very I couldn't just nake it up. Then I passed over into the side of the family that was more interested in the q?iscopal Church-that picture in Grace King's book of St. Paul's Church downtom. behaved so badly that they wouldn't let me CO~. the choir, I went to that church for a while and sang in the choir there, but I got in a fist fight in

Page  321 32 As good a place 8s any. That rather put a dankper on my going very far in the Episcopalfan Church, but I never studied any of those things to the extent that it would lead to confirmation. I never was confirmed, so here I am a baptired Catholic without confirmation in any church, and I have had experiencte in the Catholic Church, the Presbyterian Church, the Episcopal Church, and the free sort of Congre- gational Church et Yale, Right. I think it'@ typical of the times for the church to mean ajreat deal to families, but you had this pin ball proceas-=yeu how, and Sunday with the - I Joues88 aay have been revere. a day of rest, a day ofjood clothes, a dax sitti. on the poroh, not exploring the uavou were wont to. That must have made it very depressing. That 1 can understand, and than to be paed.off to liberal Catholicism, and from there a flirtation with the Episcopal Church is a variety of religious experiences that other pezle don't have, . They have this deadening, unitary sense, nrost of the time. They go ahnost autcmatically and go through a grocess which leads to confirmation ubicb they never real% understand. To jump ahead, I found ky the time I went to visit 1Ir. Andrew Mckson White in 1906, I tu, a very satiawng, huge, two volume treatise that he'd written called The Warfare of Science with Theology. Do you know that? He got hia Ph D in Germany on that book, and there's a great deal in that that influenced me a good deal-satisfied things that I was wondering about. Tied thin=?

Page  3333 CI 1 Yes, it distingudded between the ecientific things that I vias interested iL in and the churchts opposition to scientific advances,, I appreciated very early that the church was always taking a positioca-well, science would move ahead, and the church -33 controlreray over lightning rods on steeples. Lightning is a bolt of Jupiter, but it also CQI~S out of the hand of Jehovah, God of the Jews, and Lightning rods were a profanation of a church at one time. Now they have them everywhere, The astronomical problem that were settled by Galileo and people like that interested me very mche try to catch upe 0- that iapressed me thenwas the Wsa there added religious study at either Dixon, or Thacher? No, there wore praysrs. There was a routine kind of prayer which, I must conf'ess, you atteded while thinking of something elseo Theyweren't prayed with amy fervor, aa I remember, It was ern exerdaw, Part of the order of the and not oppreaslvee There Is another church that I belonged to that didn't affect my religious feelings, but when I went to England to join the British battalion in World War I, they asked me when they were making out my dog tagr, what church I be- longed to. I said,"@iaooprl Church." They didntt know what it was, so they said,"Oh, you mean the Church of E~l8Ud." I went through World War I with a C of E tag around my necko Marvelous1 We talked yesterday, in sose sense, about securityo May I say one more thing about this religion?

Page  3434 I'd like to convey a bewe of reverence for something, but I think it's childish, ljuverdle stuff--the furor that is going on now as to whether God is ado I never thought he was living, and yet I have a respect for sanething, though I don't know what it 58. I don't believe in any life efter death, and I don't believe in all this that I used to recite about the resurrection of the body. Those are pepsoaired things that one absorba-yes, but you at least had a variety, so that you could possibly discern distinctions and raise problems about it, accidents of going to Thacher School In a + It -8 good thatgou had the talk wlth Andrew D, White, one sf the You were talking about seerarity9 I was talking about security in teras of what we said last time, to IW that the 8ense of securi. was related to the cart with the white iron bedstead and the trunkdverywhere you went that went with youo Whether it went in accordance with a request to you, or whether you knew about it--at least they are things that remained constant. It would seem That only physically appeared once in my experience. Oh? - The cart, the bed, and the trunk only appeared owe. I see. But if you are raking a figure of rpeech out of 4 I was thinldng of them as your lares and pattes, known thing.,

Page  351 35 Probably every the I did change there waa sanething, but thie change I remember because he drove up to the front gate. Yese I was also thinking about eating habits being bounced around from place to place. How were you a8 an eater? I know about the how, but food. I had no fads about food. I ate whatuaa there. Only one or two things I just don't cam for, and these are beets and turnfpa, but I don't know why that is. I ate amhing, and 01s far as eating fiah on Ffidq's, I would expect that, but I like fish anyway, and this Catholic side of my family-I don't know which member-raked up a Papal Bull that one of the Popes had issued on Lake Garda in maybe the 15th Century. He didn't have any flsh that Friday 80 he issued 8 Bull and declared that teal duck was fish, $0 thost, Catholies in that group would eat tea duck, or arpr duck on Friday. They hare a oonsistency that makes me gagr t It was comforting to have that rationale, wasn1%t? I Yes, and when I learned that it was all a matter of protein, they ate eggs on Friday-that's not too far from a chicken. No--not too far. What about sleeping habits siace you had a succession of' rocms--I mean nothing that you could really call your own with aay continuity, Well, I waa fortunate in meet places in getting a little roan, or a piece of a roam-often I had a little rom to myself, and I don't recall auy trouble sleeping anythere at all. I wondered about this because you were a young kid-eix to twelve, or thirteen,

Page  36before going off to Dixon Academy, and the requirement inposed upon gou was one of almost continual adjustment-you know, facing sunething newfi so I wondered about sleepinR habits and eating. No, I don't recall any problem like that. I don't recall any problears of adjustment particularly. Maybe I was too shallow a person to be bothered But you did have the iense in joining the various fmilies where there were children, of being aoaethina on the outeide. Yes. Yes, and I wondered whether that had any carry over-like being locked in that back rom, that back stairway. That's not an easy experience to absorbo It didn't leave 8ny long scarso It just made ne mad-that's allo Bll ef these peopls-aad I1m taking advantage of A certain snobbishness which comes frap having looked through the war time letters--I get the impression, and I may be wrong, but I got the impression from the war the letters that aa of that particular period people began to mean more to you. *he choice between worMng In the laboratory in the rear and working vith the troops was disaaissed completely almost. You had to be with the troops. The letters haae-the first ra notloem of @I'd like to be once again at Blloxi, Mssiasippi" when you knew that evergolbe was Being to be gathered there. I don't know, and this may not be sa, but it appears fraa the correspondence that people qua people began to mean more to you later than io this early pe riod, and in this early pe riod I woadered whether they meant anything at all-people,

Page  3737 As I look back on it and I think I still have some of the same feeling about people, they weredstent beings, but I was rather aloof from them. think the kind of a life that I was leading, going from one place to the other, I I made me a bit secretive and want to withdraw froaa them. I think I avoided ex- posing myself to either criticism, or contentiom, or to the opiPion of strangerse I had a sort of life to myself, and I think it still ont times. Sure-lilse derpcrlbing the hut you can build in a tree where you can't be foundo Or, for example, the collection of water moccasins. You could go down and look at then. perhaps you either didn't, or wouldn't risk conversation with slpleoae else. These were friend8 to a kid, friends that you could talk to where 0 /\ For you these mre, as I sag, friendso I think thatts followed me through my life because even though I know hundreds of men I don't have any particular close friends. I wsndered about that, There couldn't have been very much in term of local neighborhood friends in this early pe riod because you weren't there long enough to put down roota. I was just speaking of q associatea 'an Yale, or medical school and others. I still hare long associations that are of an affectionate and frank kind, but they're not what you would call an intimacy particularly. Yes-well, the only one I've run on to, and this was at Thacher School, uas Andrew D White I1 who formed an attachment for and had respect for you. The letters he wrote to you are filled with humorous allusions and questions of

Page  3838 a real, quizzical minded fellow which showed certainly respect for you, regard for you as a kind of guidkn a way. I Well, that always surprised me at the the, and when I have thought about it, because he having been brought up in a highly intelligent and literate family, almost an American aristocracy in a sense, that was different fron the kind of aristocracy that I was talking about in my family which could raatch his, but he had a grandfather who had been, as Mr. MMte ua8, an Ambassador to Germaq, a great collector of books, a president of a university, and a man who had travelled all mer Bhrope and had taken this grandson, Andrew D. I1 with hh, and 80 Andrev D. 11 to me was a highly cultivated and educated young fellow-way beyond what I was at the time, 80 much so that when I first got to know Um, I just thought he wat artifically polished, Peu know how a country boy would think about a city boy? Bot hew he happened to find sanething congenial. in me was astonishing to me because we vetre very differente Well, in looking toward Yale-we got you prepared at Thacher School. Yale irs a great distance away from New Orleans, certainly a distanca away from the Thacher School. You had people iathe Bay- family who had been there and gave you, I asewne, a kind of orientation toward what you might expect at Yalee They gave me more than an orientation, They gave me a feeling that that vas a part of the natural life of one whowas related to TL Bayne and Hugh Bay-, You tee, I saw my Uncle Hugh very often during that period when he would rieit New Orleam, Then he married Helen Cbney frcm Hartford, the Cheney Silk

Page  3939 people, and he brought her to New Orleans to a house he built on Hamoty Street, where my sister went later after lay Uncle Hugh and his wife had gone. Bayne was In New Orleatm, and he talked a great deal about Yale. highly social person. He belonged to the Delta Kappa Epsilon fraternity, and I wed to hear a great deal about that. He talked about torch light parades. He could sing. He could play the piano. E Uncle TZ Bayne Jr. was a very I Hugh He was a nervy, little football player at Yale io the clam of '88, but he didn't make the grade, and I learned about Yale from him. Bayllg who was a very attractive person. My mother was devoted to Hugh Bayne, and I think I carried over some of her feeling without knowing it. know whether you came acrose the last scene down there in the howe when she was dylng. I learned a great deal from Hugh I don't She begged Hugh to stand by the foot of the bed and whistle tunes that She hew, ll And he did, and that'd 8ort of a sentineatal thingbhat is carried dong I in the memory that make8 the Yale connection feel warn too, but Hugh Bayne was a rmantieist about Yale, I don't think I thought of any other college. My grandfather had been there, and I tell the story about my grandfather R Bayae--I don't believe It's true, but he used There urn nothing else but Yale. to stay that he wanted to get to Yale so bad In 1847, that he walked all the way from Mobile to ?bu Haven to get to Yale. That'e 8 traditional story, but it is anample of what I mean about the desire to go to the place. 1 Then I went to Yale without knowing anybody which also is sanething you might have thought about ahead of time. Going to Thacher School and going to ;I 1 Yale where there were only about Thacher School boys bekdes myself, and

Page  40knowing nobody else, you were rather isolated as compared with the people who come from Andover, Fxeter, and Hotchkiss, the big shots right away, so again I felt that I was quite isolated at Yale. It took me a good while to find people, I got to know $me of the men in my class early who were not firat ranMng in the social life at Yale at the start- They come in by the doseos and were some of them cane along. My Uncle Hugh did a good deal, He introduced me to Q good laany peopleo He had a plar then in Bromvillea, New Pork, and he used to invite me and some others down for a week end, but when you cane from a small out of the way school and go to a big populow place like Yale, and you know very feu people, you often walk around the artreeta and look at the lighted windows and hear people laugh, and you haven't get anything to laugh about. C I Tou wonder what It 8 all about. 1, How did the courae work go at Yale? Well, it got better as I went along, When I went there, immediately, as soon as poesible, I tried to do soarething because Yale, they say, breedas guts, and you have to do some extracurricular work to juatif'y the tradition of Eanli- ness at Yale, 80 I started to heel the Yale News. By tthetelingft you go out and try to get copy that will be publishedo you'd go to class, and then you'd start to work and try to find things for the NeW8. any heme work, so I didn't do too well in my first two years up there, sophomore year I remember I got a letter frola Dean Henry P, Wight, and all it said wa~,~Sirr Your uork in the following subjects is unsatisfactory", and he It was very, very strenuous because That would take all your evenings, and you had very little time to do - In my

Page  41md everything I was taking, and he implied, I thought, that if 1 had taken any more, they would be equally unsatisfactory. That'e good. I stuck at the News, and it took me three competitions. A competition lasts a half a year, so a year and a half I spent trying to get on that paperr Then when I ggt on the paper, I became zaanaging editor, and things got much easier, there, Thatms enough. I was manager of the freshman track tea~a a coupler of years running, and I tried for the crew-the freshman crew, but I weighed about a hundred and forty-eight then, maybe, and I was too light for the crew, I didn't have much else in the way of competitive things to do up That is one pkace here my lla~ae came in for advantage, %e crew coach, Mr. i. John Kennedy, had been brought up in some kind of uncouth, muscular emiron- laent that was quite unfamilar with a hyphen, hadme on one list as Jones and on another one as Baym, so I got two rowing practices a day, 1 for Bay= to row number 5 and Jonas to row number 7, He was a humorous Irishman, I guess, be- etause he looked at ne when I etepped out and answered for both names and said, "Well, I don't know what I can do, accept put both of you in a pair by yourself," I used to get two practices. He Then one day he called out for one s k Then he didssed me f'roal the squad, Well, the extracurricular activities becwe importanti-you know, it is "the thing." I don't knaw why, except that it seems to be a key to social things, Well, Yale grades on a four level, and I think for my first two ears I 3 was running about two-fifty, In my senior year I think my grade wa8 up around throe-thirty, or three-forty. Then wbn I went to Hopkine-I don't remember

Page  42working too hard, but I graduated first in my class at Hopkins and was made Phi Beta Kappa, so that wiped out some of the earlier disgrace. Was there any-Yale had a good faculty in those days. Oh yes, they had some very fiw %en-4@eeler in history and Suaner in economiclo I guess you took whatever uas required of go% It was a rather rigid curriculum in those days. They adn' t have many optional courses 88 they do now, but Iwas more or less heading for medicine, ad I was guided there to t 1 e physics and chemistry. I went through organic I chemistry which was very hard for ~013 and physics-oh, mybe two years or more, I studied sme more Greek and sone mre ktin, and English. there in niy tiBae-William Lyons Phelps and Chauncey Tinker who was the great I studied French and history The Snglish I liked very much, Therewere two great teachers Johnson scholar. Well, then not far froaa where I lived-I was rooming mar the cawpus-they had the old Peabody Museumo The Peabody Museum was just a mass of mssed up collections of di pterodactyls, It's torn down now. It's built in a new place. c) 0 Yams' One thing they had was Marshts Evolution of the Horse, and I remember hou that 3ust intrigued me to learn how this thing started with five toe$ and came out with a single hoof, I thought it was wonderful. It 18. ~ But English-this joornalistic escapade that you went into was sane- thing new, msntt it, or were you on the ppe r at Thacher?

Page  43You were not. I think I went out for the Yale News Just because it mas a conspicuous thing to doo Maybe it wa8 saaething that somebody told me I ought to doo didn't do anything in aay literary senm at Pale. John Berdan who had a COUT~Q in what he called "xinor a short descriptive thing, or 8uwthing, and I scored a few on those, and then bofeesor helps formed 1p club called "the Punditen which had very bright people, Wayland william#, Lrrwrason Riggs, and others, and somehow or other they took me into that. discussed Chaucer and all sorts of esoteric hings. I There was a man, Professor You had o write P That club met at Mr. William Lpns Phelp(8 house, and they i I roomed with a very able literary young man named Howard Vincent 0'3rfen. I spent two years rooming with him. Did you ever hear of him? OtBrien is mentioned sawwhere. I n He s dead, mPatw they called him then, and he at that ti= had made two of the marin Yale magasines, the Yale Literary Magazine, and the Courant, as they call it. He was a very clever and facile writer. of the staff of the Chicago Daily News, and he wrote fm years a coluwa called "All Things Consideredem He's about as close a f'riend as I ever had there, We roomed together in Durfee Hall em year and a place called Haughton Hall the other year, but we went rather different ways. Well, we were in the same fraternity together. After graduation he became a member !hat's Zeta Psi, but he went into Wolf's Head senior

Page  44pari and I went into Skull and Boms which is also smething that I dust thought I was godg to get. at all, and lo and behold, I got tapped, I r-ber very well tap day. I wasn't worried Subsequently, and thercsts correspondence about this, .your brother Bayne, his rrophoeaore elas8 took a jaundiced View toward what tap day had beme. Not only tap day, but the senior secieties. They changed tap day a great dealo '%e students revolted agaiwt it. a horrible, barbaric torture for these people. For instance, beident BtmBter, president of Yale nowa Kinpan Brmsaterde was Q brilliant student, the Had of man whom you think would be choean by Skull and Bones. Well, when tap day came in his class, he went down In the basement and sat on the toilet during tap "hay coPlldn*t find himo He was rewoltingo My brother went Skull and Bones, and my brother was in the class with Dean Acheson-191~~nd Dean Acheson went Scroll and Keyso A number of others, men who have become rather prominent- I forget all their nares-but they worried Re ami my Uncle Hugh beceuae they didn't know what thsy were doing. They were revolting csgcrin8t the senior societies that had a good derdl mor. to them than appears on the outsidea make up fictioas about what they do. For years they just thought it waa Yese Tap day wasnrt an odd day 113 your Cla88. No. We ook it all very naturally and expected it. I think I came through i a curiouer kind of age up thew,, We were quits conservative-at leaat the people I was with were, but I felt on the verge of change,., I've always thought that the year 1910, marked the end of an era and the beginning of soae neu things at Yalep Ixm sure that's se, if you analyze ito I never went into it too

Page  45" '*' 1 ~ +i 4s deeply, but we didn't worry. I didn't worry. Fortunately I didn't have to. I was standing eut there under that tree and one of these senior Bones men stepped up behind me. didn't worry4 Thatwas about five mlnutes before the bell rang so I This was, I think, important to Hugh Bayne too. Hugh Bayne, yes. Well, I can say that having beeninthat senior society, Skull and Bones, I know that there is no packing. aaybody in advanceo are 4% the electioaso '%at's not true of' the other societies up there to the same extent. wantedme, of comae, very much to be in the Bones, My grandfather was in the Bones, and Hugh Bqm wa8* and I'm sure he must have done a good many purposeful introductions, but he never laid a finger on the process, There is nothing said to No older person dares to say anything to the people who I know it wasn't because we have the lista, but H gh Bagns r; I only meant to indiaate that he WBB pleamd. Oh, well-he wa8 not only pleased, but If It hadn't happened, he pmbably would have been grieved. That's true, but he -leased, Did you haveLow about study habits in this period, along toward junior and senior year? I studied quite hard, I wasn't very bright about it because I would study like the dickens with chemistry and phyrriee. Marsh glock Powers from Cleveland, I thinke befa- ta the examination, end he'd get an A, and I'd get a C, He was quicko There was a boy in my class named He would borrow my notebooks just

Page  46You attended class and took notes which is a new procese too, Y0se Listening toL* proferasor, getting down what is called %he meat",, I changed those habits when I got to Hopkins. As I said, and this is not boasting, I lsos the first In Glass, but I don't remember making aqy special effort to study. the textbookso 1 I w88 disgusted with one of our professors who used to take Osier's System of bdiciae when it waa one volume, and he would stand up there and read it to uso He d ~ay,~New, underline this seutenceen Ht'd go right through the pages, and putd underline all the sentences. I took some noteso I read a great deal. I read much outside I n 'phis was lagchaaical, but in my senior gear at Hopkiw I came up with an intenae interest in #e Negro question, and I spent practically most of my claspr the reading books about the South and the Negroes, I'd sit there with an open notebook, but with this other book inaide it, of course) turning the pS-8. I had 110 trouble in the medical school getting along, and I had sme good friends-that is, of the kind of friends I had, Md you get to knaw many of the professors at Yale? At Pale? Yea-in the sense of teacher-student, They were remote? Either they were remote, or I was in a fish like stage at that time-lf

Page  4747 you know what I mean-squirming out of the way of things, but I got to know Mr. Phelps smmhat, and I got to know President Arthur T. Hadley somewhato He uas a queer man, but very nice. I don't recall going out very much to aay- body's home. I had no partdcularly close relation to any faculty. That's 8bU08t Par for the courre, ~ I think. Did aqy member of the faculty stir you up, kick @pen a window or two? well, I think Tinker did. Of course Tinker was a wonderful teacher of Samuel Johnson and the 18th Century, a very polished lecturer. Mr. Phelpa arowed my interest in plap-Pinere, and Shau and those things very niuch. Curiously enough, I didn't see much of a aedical aide at all when I was there, or I don't remembero Well, medicine lay up ahead, and you dd the other when we talked that so far at^ uhanietry and physies yore concerned, there was a certain amount of Er_eparation towardmedical school that you took more seriouely at Pale than you did at Thacher and Dixon. I I can add tm that French and Gemma becaure, we were supposed to be able to read F'rench and Germano I could read German with a dictionary all righto Bow did you do in chemistry and physiea? You inacated that you went through organic chemistry, but how did you like laboratory work? Very much. Oh, you recall something to me that I liked extremely well, I got along in chemistry well enough to be accepted bp the great physiological chemist at Yale--Ruseell Chittenden,

Page  48Reall.? Yea, and I bok the CQUTS~ with Chittenden and Lafayette Bo Mendel over in the old Sheffield Building. You know, that's so identified with my medical work that I hardly consider it a part of my undergraduate work, but that laboratory was extremely interestirq, and Hr. Chittendenwas too, and we did a lot of interesting thiqg. That's like getting familiar, Was it a well appointed laboratoq? No. Oh, it was a turabled down place. It waa the old Sheffield mansion, a living house that had been made over on Hillhouse Avenueo put laboratory benches in the old parlor and places. thatwas all right* It seeaed fine to me, and we did all sorts of phgrsiological and chemical thingso Mr. Chittenden wa8 the lively Orno I suppose they It was very crowded, but Lafayette Mendel was an interesting person, but Was he a critiu? What? Was he EL critic? Yes, he was a critic, and a tremendous workero He was Dean, not founder, but II Dean of the Sheffield Scientific School, and he wa8 very ambitos for that school to wip the eye of Y!e College, 80 that there was a conflict then in a

Page  49way. waa responsible for introducing to the Sheffield Scientific Sc'ool a course that he called a "select courseno The men could go into that and not take any science at all, and they their studies in the humanitlea than the students over in Yale College acros8 the street. This was called a "select courseno Now they're all merged. Theytre in one university now, but Mr. Chittenden i t through easier in their literary studies and in c T He was sosething of an innorator then, Tea. When it came time to RO, or to think of medical school the indication that I have is that you studied one year at Tulane, 1910-1911, I always wanted to go to Johns HopMns. I never thought of aw other place s because it seemed o admirable to me because ef the people whowere there and their ideas, but as I approached the time to go I surrendered to the wishes of Hrs. Denegre. My brotherwss at Yale, or coning to Yale. He was still at the Thacher School theno Ply sister had married an ad moved out of the Denegre house, Of cow8e she y88 acro8s the streeto This is 8 true story. Mrs. Denegre had a little white poodle called Hbouche troue". Do you know what that means? k + It means %top gapn. You see, a bouche is like a cork, and a troue is a hole, so they called the dog "bouche troue", and Wrso Denegre wrote me that Marian had gone, that Bayne wasn't there, that she and Uncle George were loaetly, and that "bouche trowR wasn't enough, 80 "youtC better cme home," L

Page  50I didn't have the nerve to stand against thato I went to TJew Orleans, I I don't know that the financial side had much to do with it, got into maneo but I got a scholarship because of my grandfather Jones having been a professor there, and 1 imagine that relieved them of someexpense. At that tias and all through Yale I was getting a tk ousand dollars a year from a fund I thought was inherited, I got a check for eightyothree dollars and thirty-three sent8 a month, and I lived on that-tuition and everything else, Well, anyhow I went to New Orleans in the fall of 1910, after I graduated from Yale, and I entered Tulaneo I don't know who put the money up, t.0 tell you the truth, but As Ilook back on it nw, Wane was 8 rather raucous, rough tiBpe of country boys who had very little educationo They didn't nave to have much more than a high achool education to get into Tulalu, at that tine, For instance, the first anatomy leeason rather shocked me, as it does most student Alan Oregg wrote a bo for doctors, and he said,"Medical students certainly don't realize before they begin that their course of instruction is rather like a prise fighte They meet the cadaver fir and shake hand8 with the adversary at the beginning Well, you entered medicins in thoas days through the dead hsuse, and I had To go into those big dissecting rooms that smell a different feeling about it. bad and see all those boclieer lying out there-far me, who had had some experi- ence with nedical thinga, it didn't look too well, It didntt smell very nice. It was a bit of a shock, but I remember that two of u8 were on a cadaver to start the dissectione You were supposed to work out all the nnsclss and nerves very carefully, and this Georgia boy working on the lower part with me took a big knife and went around the buttocks of thia cadaver and cut one side of it off like 8 ham and took it of those other bags didn't mind it so ELUC~.

Page  51to the profess re He was finished with his disaection in five minutes. was typical. That \ The other things I told you about, The tape recorder wasntt runnine, then, so please put them downo I got to be president of that class pretty soon. Our histology course was quite interesting, but Professor Irving Hardesty who taught it was quite strict, and you had to draw pictures of microacopic sections, and you were supposed to have in your drawing exactly the MMber of nuclei that were in your section which was pretty hard to do. Then he had a courso in neurology which is an extremely difficult course anybow, but the bop thought that it was pat in there te spite then, and they asked me as their president to go to the trustees to get Hr. brdesty to take the ~ourse out of the curricul~~~. The Professor of Chemistry, Nro Abraham L. Metrs, was a strong and vulgar and rather Interesting chdst, but taught in a rather unorthodox manner. He- I what I said to you the other day-would put Mr. Sodiumo He s blonde and debomire, and he's walking down the beachon on the board and say,"Here's I I n Then he'd write and he'd sary,"This is Hiss Chlorine, and hers green- i eyed and avid.a !hen herd write H/C{ on the board and ~ay,~lVauie their baby$" Sodiuaa Chloride or salto He would come into the lecture room--owe lecturing on the flash points of oil he came into the lecture rom carryiag an oil lamp and pretending, to stumble OR the threshold of the doorI he threw the lamp on the floor, and it would go out. lecture on the flash points of oil, 8. very dramatic way to do it0 It wouldn't catch fireo It was 8 way that he could begin a

Page  5252 -i Another time he lectured on copper, and he had all the copper des and everything else on hi long laboratory table, and he went down along that table and with hie big right hand he picked up chunka of stuff weighing ten to twenty pounda and hurled them at the students sitting in the amphitheater-big copper pots toe, His biite noire was Jean Jacqueo Rousseau because Rousseau said that you would get poisoned if you made picues in copper pots, and he would talk about toxicology. That's a good way to teach. t a He started me in the first piece of real research I did, I didn't succeed. He didn't believe that tryptophane, aa amino acid, would come from caseia, so he boughtme maw gallom of milk, and I =de the casein out of the milk by precipitating it with acrid. Then I tried to hydr it to get tryptophane, I almsst got it, but I didn't quite. This was til$ newo The Professor of ysiology was an intmesting person, an Englishman by the name of Gustav Mann and at the time my brother-in-law, Ralph Hopkinar, my sister's husband, wa8 an Associate Proferssor in Phyaielogy, so I was pretty close to him. hard-4 think now in a compensatory fashion for things that I wasn't getting elsewhere-that 18, I didn't care to work off energies, or anything by playing areundo I didn't go to dances, If I could help it. I didn't know many people, and I can reareaber once at Hardi @a8 that first year. I was upstairs in the attic, that Washington bed of which there is a picture in the Files. anatomy up there one everbng, and it was carnival tine, and I should have gone to a ball, or sawthing. Mrs. Danegre, my "Tante E", came up to the attic door and a8w me-I canremember it to this daj. She waa about five feet one and and fell Bcrws the bed so that her k Iwas dissatisfied from tt-e time 1 went there. I studied very I had a room in bhe attic with a single bed, and the single bed wae I was studying rather pkmp, and she gave sort of a

Page  5353 little feet were sticking out over the edge, She was lylng acmss the bed, not verg comfortable, I guess, and she sdd,"You're the most annatursl member of tMs family that ever has existed" - This was because I wouldn't go to a party. Well, I didntt go to the I don't remember how that ended, but at that time I began to read partyo Eherson, an read Ellrerson's essay called Welf-reliamew, and he sap in there that if you are in the household of your parents, or close relatives, and don't agree with them, it's bet%er to go and tell them and get out than to try to stay there and make a go of ite week, or two. + - I read that, and I stewed arourrd for maybe a I wanted all the more to go tce HopMns, so one night I went down about nine o'clock frem the attic which was on the third floor to a library dm stairs where Hr. Ge rge Detmgre and Mrs. Denegre would sit in sort of opposite chair5 and read books. I came to the door with great trepidation, and then 1 told them that I wanted to go to Hopkinst. We=, to my amaaement 4 before I finished telling them I wanted to go to Hopkins, they agreed withmy going. I would hurt them, and they didn't want to tell BDB to go because theywere afraid that it would appear that theywere putti g me out of the house. Well, this, opened the snbject up, and we were all together in no theo I didn't want to tel them that anted to go because I was afraid that + ii Then I wrote right away to Dr, Welch, and youtve seen the letter. I got an ammc from Dr. Welch which is one of the achievements of awbody in the world. Before you go on, there are two things-you told me a fascinating story the other day about a group of students who were about to tar and feather one of the professors o That was a man mmed Herbert H. Bullard. Bullard was a Canadian, and he

Page  54was a Professor of Osteology. His idea was like Hardestyls with the nuclei. He would teach us about the bones in the akeleton, and you had to know all the origins and insertions of the muscles, not nly the big things on the bones, but dted that. It was too tsrd really, It was Just strict memorizing, and also the stuff is very variable because two boner are not exactly alike, but he would insist on thiso Well, I was president of the class when I got a call 4 the little roughnesses where the muscles come and go. The students from somebody In the evelRing,aCome on up here to Audubon Park, Dr. Bullard on the levy of the Mississippi River. They're got They've got him undressed, and they're going to put tar and feathers on hiplaw Well, I got up there in tire and stopped theno They would have tarred and feathered himo That show8 in some ways the flavor of the times and Tulane, the attiaade they would tab. The other thing that intrigues me is that you said that even at ping to Yale, Johns Hopkins wa about this place? or before he plsee for you. HQW did you first hear 1 Well, it's hard for ae to remember bscawe it goes back into Joseph Jones and early dayne themes, One of the admlrabb people at Hopkins was William Sydney Thayer, professor of Medicine, a most charming arid cultivated gentleman, who wrote one of the first papers on malaria in this country, somewhere in the known to my family, to Wrs, Denegrs, through 'altimore connections o

Page  5555 To digress a little. The family used to corns up to %Ltimore frequently becaus spr mother went to Fmalittsburg, the Catholic seminary-that's a place for monlas, isn't it? t She used to go to Fhmettsburg, the convent. It's right up here near Frederick, Maryland, I'hey got to know a good many people in Baltimore, including Dr. Tbayer who became Professor of Medicine and ale0 Dr, Lewellys F, Barker who became Professor of Hedicins, Dr. %rbr married a Halsey, and her brother was addition, the family connections that go through aaltimore included Cardinal. Gibbons. Somehow or other I identified him with Hopkins in a way as a great c rofessor of pharmacology at Tulaneo In figure, Most of the things in Baltimom took a part of Hopkins in my insagina- tion, but I met Cardinal Gibbons. He forgave me for being a rather gauche sort of person when my aunt, my sister, my brother, and I called on the Cardinal in his palme on Charles Street, They kneeled down and kissed his ring, When he held out his hand to me, I think I reached out an ust shook hands with him, I didn't kiss his ring. I was about twelve at that tirae, I guess, You see, 4 we were in and out of Baltbore a good deal, and HopMnswas there. Now to go back to the reasons for starting with Dr. Thayero When malaria was attributed to a parasite carried by a mosquito, thatwaa a very exciting thing, discovered in 1897-1900, and shortly after that various people tried to confirm, That must have been around-mCl.s the mosquito that carried malaria was or disprove this, and one of these was Thayer, He would come to New Orleans, stay at our house, and go chasing lgbsquitoes. Everybody thought he was a damn fool to be chasing mosquitoes. They did. I didn't think so. I thought that was a good thing, He was so charming and SO interested in this biological

Page  56process that I thought HopHns nust be a fine place. That's one of the thingso Then 1 used to pass through 'altimore and see this superb building-you know, the central dome of the administration building of the Johns Bopkins Hospital, It was very impressiveo In addition, I had an even earlier connection with Hopkirw because when I%'?CS theywere planning the hospital in the early y, the trustees invited five people in this country to sutrait plans for this hospital, and one of themuss Joseph Jones. I forget who the others were, but there is a book In thia library with those five plans in it, and my grandfather, after being prodded by the trustees, said,"I'm very busy, but here18 what knother was John Sku Billings. J. 've done", nnd he sent thew drawings of the hospital. They were very like Billing's plan too, so you see, I knew about Bopkins from the plans that he had made about it, and we'd talk about the placea It's hard fer me to separate my recoUections of my fine experience there with the anticipations I had about the place because they have all merged as one nowp where one began and the other eaded. 0 I dontt knru Did you work with Thayer in New Orlearn? No. I can't say that I worked with him, I knew what he was doingo What I meant 11 as did you EO allth him? I may have, Mosquito catcu- You didnt.t have to go faro heywere all in the houseso Everybody had a . ckstern then.

Page  5757 The reason I asked about Johns Hopkins was because I know from thepape rs that it has had a lo ontinui9, and I wanted you to put it down. pone just about an hour-Just a I think we've I 0 I think so. I could follow up on this Tulane story with the Chicago story, if you wanto That may take a little bit more tiae-sl, all right. When I got through talking with Ws. Denegre and my Uncle George about going to Hopkim, I immsdiately wrote to Dr. Welcho I soon got an amer saying that I had been accepted for the secend year class, if I could meet the rum quirmenta. Well, therequirenents for entering Hopkins were even hi@er than the things I would have in my head after I'd finished the year at Tulsno. The requireaents also included more of physics than I had had, so I found out that I could take a swuner course at Chicago to make up this difference, I went to Chicago, and I have sollicewhere some of the recorjleft-I lived in a little rom in a side street near the University i' a roan so small that ay bed wan across the door, i I had to push the bed out of the way when I opened the door and push the bed back across the door when I got in. I have food bills that I saw not long ago, around six dollam a week, and zuy I think I lived there- roam was around two dollars a week,, I took a full course in bacteriology. I took a courae in physiology with Dr. Carbone He was a great physiologisto and I read a great deale I had good enough marks and finished all the stuff up necessary to get in HopMm; in fact, I did more thn enough, but I alnost didn't get into Hopkins becauee after I finished at Chicago I took a little I took a certain amount of physics, A 1 time off. Somehow or other I picked up sone books on architecture sad I got

Page  58very interested in reading about architecture. Then I woke up one day-tbis had only taken me a few day8-to realirte that the Admissions Committee meting whichwas whatever exanination they'd give at Hopki~ had been held and finished before I even startmd for Baltimoreg going to tell you, but it*s This is a ridiculous story Ifm the truth and characteristic of the Hopkins peoplee I went on down to %ltimore, and Iwas the only candidab that appeared that dary at a meeting In the Dean'o Office. The Dean then was a man we called I nBulla Williams, a great, big Professor of Obstetrics, a wonderful man, J. Whitridge williw. Dre Williams, Dr. William H, Welch, Dr. WO Ho Howell, who becam Dean, and Dr. Franklin P. Mall, the great anatomist, were sitting them, and I appeared in that room with a derby hat in my hand. Wonst you hve a mat?n One of them said, A 4 I put the hat don on a chair, and then suaething distracted my attention, and so they said,Well, sit downon I eat down, but I sat on my derby hat-right when I wanted to make a good impression. HYoufre so dmb you can't come in $)s 8chool," but they aU acted as if I hadn*t sat en my hat, and I did too, until finally Dro Mall turned to me and I think if you did that nowadays, theytd throw you out aad say, sdd,"You can get up off your hat now. That's not a sacrifice demanded of the m")6"" here. * That's marvelous. through? Did they-this was a verbal questioning that they put you They didn't ask ma muuh, They just wanted to talk to ;you0 As a matter of fact, that system of a liberal. attitude toward a candidate is chacteristic of the place, or at least it's been my fortune to hsms had it extended to me.

Page  59~ h c 59 For instance, when I went before Dr, WiUk Halsted in the end for oral examinam tion ifi surgery--* know, he wa8 a great surgeon-he talked to me about North c ! Carslim. When I got a license by exemination, so to speak, in after I P. had moved back to Yale in the examination. They even asked in before this austere board, didn't quia me on the facts. At Hopkins I had done so this physiology with carlson, I* 308, they called you up to Hartford for mf Harvey Cushing to came up there, but when I got they just asked me opinion about things. I could make up anything. They ?- much work that it was very fortunatea 80 that excused me-Dr. Howell who wae Professor I had of Physiology said that I needn't take any more. Yousee, Iwas enixrlng the second year at Hopkinso I did this work at Chicage so %hat I Esouldntt lose a year, tire in his lab ratory working on a problem, so I worked on the extraction of prothrombin frola blood plateletso It's a part of the coagulation of blood in Dr. Howell excused me frm physiology, but permitted ne to put all that ti h which Dr, Hawell made such a great nane for himself, Well, I spent a par-all of the time that I could put in-in a little room in his laboratory. wonderful, and he g*, me an ideal which I thhk through, I wrote the paper for publication in the American Journal @f Physiologp2 and I put his name first. It woe lived up too When I got P Naturally-he outlined the problem. He guided every step, and it was reallyawell, he should be first as senior author. When he went o er the manuscript he changed it a great deal, or edited it, and he took his nam off, jh Hawa that is what a lot of professor6 don't do. When they have a student taldng a degree, a F'h D, or whatnot, I know some of them Just insist on putting their nam8 on all. the publications. b~ F, Rettger was one like that at Yaleg I don't know whether your teachers

Page  60did that-you kaow, before pu make a thesis, you often have a number of papers. Well, Dra Howdl did this, and that paper was pubhedo %at's my first publication in 19l.l DO American J~~rnal of Physiology 74-79 (April, 191217. I I wanted to take a courp~e with professor Walter Jo1~88~ He was the Pro- I wanted to take his fassor of Biochemistry, a very brilliaut and able =no course in biochemistry. chemistry?" I went to see him, and he ssid,%ave you had any bio- Isaid,Tes, sir. He t~aid,~%t the hell out, of here I can*t teach you any biocheaistqr, I had course work with Dr. Chittenden." if youtve worked uith Chittenden", and he wouldn't let me come in and audit his courseo his Alax Carlson at Chicago? I What sort ef fellow was he? He was a great big Swede, I think-or Norwegian, a big, rawbone wan about six feet two, striong 8s the deuce, chewing a pipe stem all the time and very incisire in everything he said, firm in his opinion, opinionated, a big voice, and he was a leadero J A pied pipar, Haw was he uith students? oh, they liked him, admired him so macho He was so honesto There wasn't any fa+out him, I

Page  61E!' 41 But the University of Chicago is the first time that bacterioloais mentioned. I took a cow88 there in bacteriology with-well, his name will come to me later on [bofessor Borrnan MaeLeod Harrige course. He wad a Canadian man who was a quiet, ehy sort of person, taught a routine bacteriology courie, but I ciidntt get into bacteriology because of thato there to Chicago in 1928, QS I visiting Professor in Bacterioloa, and I will tell you about hw that resulted In my being offered a pro It was P nice interesting I 1'11 take that up with you later. Itn@ a curious thing, I went back and why I didntt take it.

Page  62Thuradag, April a, 1966 A, No L, M. Last tiane ue got you through the period of i erest, but dissatisfaction at 'pulano, the break through in communlcatlan between yourself and Uncle George and "Tante E" about Hopkins, and therewas no probleraa-suddenly you were all singlng the same song. We took you to chi cap;^ by way of underscorirg Dr. Welchrs letter to gout "If you meet the requiremenksw. Well, you did more than meet the requirementa. This was because I wanted to gs into the second par without losing a yeao Then there was this fascinating aside into architecture that all but Right. elizninated the admission day weetiqe Yes, It distracted neo I forgot the date. But at amy events you finally got to Hopkina, spoiled a derby hat, but were very gently received. I guess the preparation for going and staying at Hopkins, studyiKg at HopWns-as you indicated last time-had been in your mind a long time 0 - Y Well, here you are. You're there. Baltiaore is an old frlead to you. Here you are with continuity, and I'd like you to talk about the city, the atmosphere, the general shape of thing!, whatwas available to you in terms of facilities, laboratories, people, equipnent, library, and so on as of this particular time because you must have luxuriated in it all. Evolution of the Hor8ee There was more present than Marsh's

Page  63e, Well, the first thing yeu have tAdo when you go to a new town, or a new erchool is find a place to live. Dr, Welch lived, 807 Sto Fad. Street, but I did have some kind of a letter I don't remember how I went to the house where either to hbn, or to the housekeeper of that house that made it poasible for me to get a room there. When I entered the second year class at Johns Hopkins, I got a room in the house where Dr. Welch lived, and I occupied that room on the third floor just over his bed room for the next three years. This was a great, wonderful thine; for me becausr I place Dr. Welch with the great people of the world. I adaDired him emomoasly, and he waa alwap very good to me in net a condoreending fashion, but curiously enough with his gentility and his great knowledge of poplo, he treated this incoming student at3 a colleagueo The lady who kept the houae was Miss nary Simmons, a tall, thin, austere sort of person with a most kindly heart, but an Inperions demeanor, and BS soon as I got the room and she was giving me a latch key to the door, she said to nmIfqPouw man8 if you come back tc this house any night and you can't get this key in the lock, if pa are rich, gon can go to your clube you go to the statioa' If you're poor, Pretty auatereo Miss Simtuorw, I think, also managed Dr, Welch who was a bachelor, in a sanewhat similar kindly and strict manner. Dro Welch was a bon vivant, and he gave elegant dinners at the Maryland Club, LBO= of which he took me too and I remember @me seeing Hiss Simmons, the day after Dro Wekh had been at one of these dinnere, and she told p9e that Drr Welch came home about afd-dght and didn't have his by. He rang the bo1 and ahe said,"I went to the door to tell hipn what I thought abeut tbis, but he was 88 sweeto He put in my arm 31

Page  64all the floral decorations from the center table of hi8 dinner party and went upstairs as quickly as he couldon That shows, I think, Dre Welch's character and his tact--and for a bachelor- haw to appeal to the ladies. eiplfmrianiam. It also shows something of Miss Sinrmonat dis- Did you warm te him? Were you en rapport with him? With Ik, Welch? Oh yes9 I talked to Dr. Welch quite freely, but laost respectfully all the tine because he was the molder ofthe Hopkina wecUcal school, the great feunder of all the modern foundation support of medical education. He knew Mr, Frederick T. Gates very well who was the man who influenced Hr, Rockefeller to give the noneyo Let me continue with Dr. Welch just a little on some lainor anecdotes. All the people that viaited the medical school froar abr ad, people of av come- quenue, would call on Dro Welch, and he entertained most of them at the Harp laad Club, wonderful dinnerso He took ne tomveral, but I hopperasd to 88e one night 9s I went by his door how he was prepariag for the dinnero He had a ran frm South Africa, and I noticed that; Dr, Welch while putting on his tuxedo, had propped on his bureau the Bnclyclopedfr Britsnnica. gone by enough to see what he ua8 doing. Senth AZricao At the dinner, %his forefgrr distinguished gentlsman was sitting between me and Dr. Melch, and Dre Welch began on that article with paragraph one and said 4 I think 1 may have It was turned to the article on I went up stairs and read that arttcle too bfsre the dinnere

Page  65some things, 8.) I picked up paragraph two, and Dr. Welch looked at IDG in a curious wayo Well, we went on through that whole article thatways I caught on to what Dre Welch waa doing, 80 fn the next pause, or That's a marvelow techniqueo Well, Drg Welch would do thato He would thoroughly prepare for anything he did, and it wasn't fdseo could hare dom it without prepariag, but that was one of his characteristicso He had a most 1% was false on my part, but he mamelow memory, almost ccmplete recall, and he kept on developing it by in- sisting on holding you while he recited in detail what hetd just reado He WOUM read a scientific artkls and start to talk to you about itg You t couldn't stop him until he told you everything thatwas in that articlee He woad sonetiates repeat ito I remember how long that particular quality eontinuode Drs Welch died in 193k, April 30, 1934, I think. He waa in his 85th year. He was born in 1850, and he was dying of a cancer in the Brady Urological Institute. spent a good part of a year dying there fictual3y - 14 nonthe~7, but he wae reading I think he scientific papers all the tima In the journals which we brought him, and one of them rll2 Proceedings Royal Society of London, Series B 384406 (Harcb 2, 1933v, as I remember distinctly, had the first account of KLford @m3acou - filter8 which are collodion filter8 with very fine pores, 80 fine that you can measure the sise of viruses that pass through and those that don't. Thatwrs the first time that they began to get at the size of viru8es like poliomyelitis virus and otherso or so before he died, and hemcited the whole of that article on Elferd filterso Iremember sitting by the sid of Dre Welch's bed the day 4 That'e the way he waso

Page  66He founded one of the first medical history clubs that I knew anything about, I suppose the influence of Dr. William Osler ua8 there too, Johas Hopkins Medical History Club net at least once a month under the aegis of Dr, Osler, who had gone before I got there, and Dr, Howard blley, Dr. Thayer, and always Dro Welch, Dr. Welch knew ~sediccil history just as he knew anything else, and of course the Piaal accoaaplishment of his varied and wonderful life was when he was made the second director of what ie called the Welch Library at Hopkiw, the great nedicd, historieal and general scientific medical library. When Dr, Harvey Cushing wouldn't take the job, Dr. Welch took thig on-oh, in hi8 80th year, I believeo He went abroad and bough? a lot of books in his characteristic fashion. He just bought books and greatly exceeded the provision that had been made for hi8 purchasesu-hs was a very mild sort of an anperor to hiBpaelfo He was a very Me, portly man with a very large abdonj.mil section, very handsome, dignified, pleasant voiced, Id.ndly-no end of energy as far as I could tell,, He could go all the the. but the Waa he neat and tiw Yers, he was neat and tidy, but he didntt have anybody particulavly taking care of bis clothes. very untidy a8 far as his correspondence and bis books went. He had a system of allowing letters to accumulate on hi8 desk until they got to a certain depth, and then herd put down a layer of newspapers over those and start again, He did. Hewas neat and tidy as far as his clothes He was hand written. All of his correspondence was hand written. I talked a pear or 80 ago to

Page  67Dro Allan Mo Chesney who was a elaas ahead of me and became Dean of the Johns Hopki~ Medical School some years ago, and he wrete the history efthe Johns HopMns Hospital and Hedical School, He went back over all these files of the Dean's Offioe, and they hardly found anything by Dr. Welch typewritten. He did all his Dean's work and hi8 Fouudatienwork in long hand. That's great organization to keep in mind an idea, That's tidye Let ne ask you if you're doing any collateral reading in connection witb thir? Well, there's a wonderf'ul paper by Dro Harvey Cushing called "The Doctors Welch of Norfolk" which characteri2;es this wonderful Welch doctor faailyo Drc Cushing was formed by Dr, Welch in a way too and admired him tremendously. Md he have humor? Yes in a way, Well, you didn't malcs any jokes with Dr, Welch. I urrderstand that, but did he have humor? He had a twinlcle, A twinkle. Wasn't overly serious-just well organiaed in terns of his interest. Yes, he wasn't frivolous. Well, the picture of him depositing the center piece with Miss Simmons coming ha% 0 -

Page  6868 Xas he accessible to you in the house? 1 never tried to associate with him in that way. To we# he was an Olympian figure. A8 a matter of fact, 1'11 confess one thing I did, I put my bed en the third floor mer where I knew his bed was on the second, hoping that some dreams would come up and influence ne. You indicated that he could talk with aqyaae high or low without them gaining the feeling tt he vas condescending,, \- Yes+ That'a a ram gift, i8urtit. Dr. Welch was very fluent in Geman. Of coarse he w erat to knirrrxy from Belleme Hospital up in New York befere he went to Hopkias, Then he went te Germany ahnostyear after year, He wag a close associate of Robert Koch, a' Cohrheh, mi' Ehrlich, Pasteur, He knew a1 the people who were making the bacteriological era which had begun a bit before his the, but which was caaing in to what he called "the most miraculous decade in the history ~f'rnedicine~l- that is, the period from about 1870 to 1880, 1885, and he was P part of that. He wae making discoveries of his OWR in bacteriology at that time. He was one ef the men who introduced medical bacteriology into the United States. He had a wonderful scientific mind, great judgment. of things, and his colleagues at school accepted his authority very easily, even very, very individuallatic people like Franklin Po Hall, hofessmr of Anatomy--you may have come across him in some of this stuffe i A People consulted him on all sorts n

Page  6969 Dr. Mall was a tall, sharp spoken man of great intelligence, a Professor of Anatomy, and a man who, really before Dr. Welch, had a vision of the full time system of medicineo He preceded Dr. Welch, but Dr. Mall had everybody rather frightened becaum he would say such sharp things in a qntlt manner, I can member when I was trying to draw a picture of a brain that had been given to me up in his anatomy course, and it was still covered by the aeninges, the dura mater which is a thick piece of fibrous stuff whichwas almost opaque from the fixative. the brain. Dr. Mall watched me or a while, and he said,"I think if you would remove that opaque obstruction, you'd be able to see it betterow 4 I was trying to draw the convolutions of the cerebral part of !Chat's the way he'd talk to yous Like pulling the stopper. He was a man who, as I sey, frightened you soozewhat, but very intelligent, and he had with him a marvelous Associate Professsr named Florence R, Sabin who got to be a great expert on the formation of bloodo to work a little bit in her laboratory for a 91ort time-ahe went while I was at Hopkins to the Rockefeller Instituteo mn the faculty of a wedical schoolo Dr, Mall that women were admitted to the Hopkins Medical School, admitted at first, but the place got in financial difficulty, and Miss Mary Ee Garrett said that she'd give them five hundred thousand dollars if they would admit women on the same footing as men, and they did. I had the good fortune I think she was the first woman to be It was in the time of Dro Welch and The wwen't y\ How was Dr. Welch in class? Dr, Welch in class was superbo He didn't recite the textbook on anythingo

Page  70He just talked about his experiences and his knowledge, He hard first hand know- ledge of dust about everything that he was going to talk about in pathology, His immediate successor was George H. Whipple first, and he was followed by Milton C. Winternits-both of whom had tremendous influenee on ray doings. Winternita was succeeded by William Go MacCallum whowas a brilliant man, but theae men all lectured from what they knew. They didn't recite the book back at you, They supposed you knew it. i Haw $as he thoughdof bv students generalis \ \ Dro Welch? It's the stme thing, They just t ught Dr. Welch was one of the severr % wonders of the world. $hey liked him, but there was no familiarity. They were there for businesso They were there for business, but even if there wasn't any business, there WAS an aura about him that influewedo Did you have the feeling, in comparison to Tularia, that Hc~pfhias was a professiod school? Oh yes, Of course its students were all very much more earnest than they were at Tulane, much better informed. colleges. didn't want to get by on any easy way, is very different, They all had BA degrees from their %ey all were ambitious, wanted to live up to high standards. They They admired their professors which

Page  71n As far as the physical plant went at the the, I thought it waa palatial, but I know now that it wasn't. modern appliances, modern fixtures had 't cane in very much. There were great high ceilings everywhere, not too warm rooms in the winter. Then, yeu know, the whole place got into trouble when the lost a great deal of money at the time, but you see, it was in 1910, that Abraham Flexner wrote his great report 011 the medical schools of the country, and I think that Abraham Flexrrsr thought that there was no other school in the country that could te{ch the Johns Hopkina, It was built art 8 the when modern apparatus, and Ohio Railroad failed. They Dr. Welch had a good deal of influence on the FIexners. Itwm Abraham Flexnerts brother, Simon Flexuer, who became the director of the Rockefeller Institute after his work in pathology at Pennsylvania. kntucky to work in Dr, Welch's laboratory. Simon Flexner from the time they were much younger-you see, Dr, Welch lived a long time, He was born in 1850, snd wetre talking now for me around 19ll--st that time Drr Welch was sixty-one, He came from Louisville, Dr. Welch knew both Abraham and The rest of the things on the equigment side, it was a period when most of the investigators made their own apparatus, sorts of things, could repair ihstruments,, You couldn't repair microscopes and instruments like thato but you could do a lot of minor stuff, sad Dr. Welchts own laboratory was very simple. Bewasn't dsing research awy more when I came there, but I could tell frau the past that all he had was some bactzriological apparatus, soae culture tubes, Clinical-Pathological Coaferencss7, - the great autopsy occaslorm uhere he WD uld- Yeu blew your own glass an de all + He of course presided over %he pathology - /%he

Page  72I-suppose he nQht have introduced the system in which the pathologist and the professor of one of the clinical departments aeet Over a case, a body that's been autopsied, and the professor tells what he thought about the disease, what the consequences were and the processes, and then the pathologist, who has the last word and has the great advantage of having seen everything, suaXl.y tells him where he was wrong-the clinical pathological coaference. lively and interesting meeting because these men don't try to put on any falsa front. They go at it. Ir I c It 8 a very How was Dro Welch in thoare conferences? He was very good. He ,+#e. He didntt do what sane pathologists do in these conferences. Hem8 a gentleman and dealt with the clinical prdessor as if he was a gvntleman too. Some pathologfsts that I hsve known u8e that occasion to vilify and ridicule the other mano They shouldn't because, as I say, they've got the look-in on -what actually was there. $he other fellow was just gWssing--had to guess, It can be a little frightening, fellctw wham you mntioned and whm I met sme years ago--Winternitao I think it could be pretty frightening with 8 Where did you meet Winternita? It was here in Washingtonwhen he was down hem en the Hoover Camissicme He diad about five years ago, 0 It was some tiae before that. He was down here working on the HsAver Commission, I think it was, to revise the structure of govertnnent, and I saw hiai briefly, but .L. he had the reputation of running a pretty brutal conference, 1 That mag be

Page  7373 everatatedo Well, I worked under Dro Winternits a couple of years down thereo Winternits never hurt me, but he was awful rough on sane peopleo Yesr I guess it's one thing when you have the Final say, Youtre--%mll, it's like having an ace in the holeo Talking about the apparatus-you take this thing here, the chloride deter- adnations in the urine. nothing but a graduated cylinder-juat stock in the lab)fratorg, and you put it together and make something out of it, That piece of apparatus that is shown in there is 0 This paper is 1913. ["Simplified Methods for Quantitative Estination ef Chlorides in the Urine"' 12 Arch Internel Med 90-111, (1913)7 ..- This was during my third years Yes. Who -8 Dr, Guthrie? He was the ProfeBsor of Clinical Microscopy which is a subject in the school where you examinn blood, smears, urine, sputum--all the excretions, plus make cUlture8, rather exciitiag sort of work-hving nnany peculiar things that people get out ef their bodies and fun tmng to find out what they were and guessing, Clinicdl microscopy was a favorite subject with us, It was a - we Go Guthrie was s beau bruamaell, a good sieed fellow with shining red halr, immaculate clothes, aad I would say now, a Hadison Avenue manner, but we didntt kn0w that in thoae days. He had as anassociate a more interesting and able person named William L, Moss, and Moss discovered the blood groups while I was thero. That was a great excitement. Guthrie let me come into his

Page  74shop, his laboratory, to do what I wanted to doo and usually worked until late at nighto I usually cane in after class The interest in this particular paper was that it appears to have been an effort to test the accuracy and simplify the tests doctsrs could make. That would work, A useful service. An effort to draw stme relatienship between what went en in 001 like Johna Hopkins and practice generally, for sa rda. \ bv In HopMns they encouraged you to dm what they call an narbeitn. They carried that over from their Geman experience. be able to have an arbeit-you worked an some prvbl- didn't work on a problem, but if you shawed any inclination to do so, you were encouraged. You didntt have a grant to work ono in the departmenta, and you had to fidget around and get your apparatus aa you couldo s~imlr, pu probably wouldnft get very far with the supply because it uas too Every student was supposed to A great many of them There were very sllid.1 funds If yon had a piece of work that required the use of dogs, or other coatly. In this particular _problm--the accuracy of these tests and mea~ur~onts-i.~ setting it up did you talk to professor Outkrie a8 to hew it would be desig.aec$ or did he turn you loose? As I recall, they turned me loose-you see, there's no statistical study in that paper. I had to do to get a significant result and do sme other study of the problemo That and this one-I forget what this one ia-but they were all episodic with It is not as I would do it newo I would figure out how much L

Page  7575 me. Theyhappened to be something that I was interested in at the time. Yes, that's the nature of these early pap ere. liver. - [Bloomfield, A., and BaynelJonea, %,"A Case of Abscess of the Liv@r due to a Streptothrix" This one is that abscess of the 26 Johns Hopkins Hosp Bulletin 230-233 (1915)7. - That was because I happened to see a patient who had a mosi peculiar fungus-like thing-there's a picture of it thero. that kind of a thing then because, 88 I recall, ado Cdellaoi was talking about thme things. Waa he mentioned? I was partly interested in I1 No, but that dw?sn*t mean that he was not there. No, Castellani uame to Tularae somewhetre areund a year ar two later as a Profemor, a rycologist. He became the cMef surgeen for Muasolini in the in- vasimn of Ethiopia. This apparently was a specifia case that came into the hospital-here's its history-and presented a probleah This probably-well, Arthur Bloomfield was the resident physician then, and he was a highly cultivated doctor who went out to California-literary, in- telligent, a good teacher, and he ran the laboratory, was a laboratory for bacteriology, and he q4bably put me on that job, or else I found it and worked it up with hin. In the Hospital there Ai I I It s of no collsequenc~. * Well, it does shew what comes mer the transom as you grow-the same with this -- om. /=Pleural Eosinophilia" 27 Johns HopMns Hosp Bulletin 12-16 (1916u, Well, that one I worked up layself because the eosinophile cells were

Page  7676 supposed to have pose bly an iron component. red staining granules, chest, but I studied all these cells, Then I tried to incubate those cells, I think, with hydrogen sulphide, a.nd they got black so I thought there was some iron in them, These are these cells with Le Not only did I find them in the pleural fluid in the 'phis again is the pursuit of interest. This one on *entra,tion of the DPaphraW" r17 .... Arch Internal Ned 221-237 (191617p was an epieode too becauaa I had a patient with his intestines up in his chest because they were going through a hole in his diaphragm. about diaphragmatic hernia. case 1 could find anywhere, and 1- greatly helped in this kind of work by the Surgeon General's Index Medicuse Then I got the ~-1.ay8, See these drawings, There was a very interesting man at Hopkina by the name of Max Brddel. He was brought to the Hopkins frola medical illustration in this couttry of a special typeo Yea read I then went to the library an ooked up every dp L) by--maybe Dr, arker, and he founded He was a very good draftsman, He had a technique for drawing things on a chalk board with charcoal, You rubbed it around and came out with a full brain, or samething else, but Hax--well, didn't Nox sign this drawing? Yes, he did, Well, Max BrMel ma a musician and a rather considerable artist, not mdically trained, but very quick had a place outside BalthIore which later an in my life, in the time of pro- hibition, was one of the great beer stubas in town because Max BrWel was s great brewer. Max BrUdel's friend was Mencken-4, Lo lulencken, and he h-as out catch on to what was under the skin,, He ik!

Page  7777 there every Saturday nighto BrWel and Hencken would play a double on the piano) and wdd get out there and sing and drinkMax BrlMelts beer* He drew those plctnres, and he drew som mer@ here Coo. This paper called WRoentgenography of the Lunga" /-Waters, - A.Ao,Bayne-Jones, S., and Rowntsee, L, Ge,"Roentgenegraphy of the Lungs. in Living Anlmala after Intratracheal Injections of Iodoform lFnruleionw 19 Arch Internal Mod 538-549 (1917uB ha6 CI title that I know now cause8 ar thing to be lost-you 808, all that meam is x-ray of the lungs, but then the subtitle say8 that we used injections of iodofom 611) and look at the date en that. It% 1917, I was an instructor in Pathology and Bacteriology, Waters was the x-ray mano Dr. Rawntree is the man who wrote that book I showed you, but nowadays to visnallm the air passages, thstts what they use, an opaque substance in the x-ray and thia is om of the first papers ever on that 8ubJectt but the iodoform we wed killedmost of thoare dogat, 80 we didn't u108 it 011 patients. Roentgenographic Studies I was the anid man, and Rmtree =a8 the braino Waa Romtree at Hopkins? Rowntree was Rrofessor of Pharmacology, At Hopkina? He was assistant to Dr. John J. Abel-Leonard G. Rowntreeo He waa a good pha~%mCOlOgi8t, and he did a great deal with the dyes that were used to de- termine the hydrogen-ion concentration coming out about this ti-, Well, here I am jwt before going into the war. Yes, 1917-though this paper might reLate to work done - in 1916,,

Page  7878 I' II ii I One of the great satisfactions of the arbeit is that you really came in contact with an erudite professsr who was kindly--in.lother words, it was a little like browsing in a library. You browse on personality when you're con- nected with this work. I In another sense1 it 8 an unplanned thing--interest has to develsp, and it is interest that projects you into the midst of work like this. Suddenly you're in the midst of it-rou know, and the fringe benefits are the fact that you do pet a chance to talk with a first rate group ~ of people. 1 This first one, the beginning, with William H. Howell-he was a renarkable man. I gather you took to medicine like a duck to watero I guess soo 1 took t0 mcdicine with a great in-erest in patieate, R great interest in the processes, and a great deaire to make further contributions to knowledge I aluays thought that I would go back to New Orleans after leaving Hopkins and be like my grandfather, I would be answering a tinkle bell like he did, The houses ia those daya had a pull handle on the front door with a Wire going to a bell hack in the hall, and that bell was a kind of cow bell on a coil spring, You'd put1 that handle, and the bell jangled, life after leav3.ng Hopkina, but the accidents--I suppose I can go into them now-of having an internship in medicine after I graduated and then being asked to be an assistant resident in pathology which I accepted, changed all that. you couldn't have a fundamental understanding d morbid processes without about them, but I never did practice medieinso I thougtrt that's the way I would spend the rest of q Dr. Welch and Dr. Osler by writing and all nade it perfectly plain that

Page  7979 having a fair experience in pathology, 810 I went frau medicine to pathology, frm an internship in medicine to an aasistant residency in pathology, znd that got me so interested that it began to turn my life in that direction. Another thing happened that cones from Itre Winternitz, and it influenced A 4 me very much. Winternit% was in charge of the Pthologr Department this year of l9ls-I guess it was; yes, the fall of 1915, Winternitz had built a labora- tory for bacteriology on the fifth floor of the Pathology Building, and he didn't have anybody to put in there to run it, and he said to me)lWhy don't you take a shot tat this?" Well, I had never had anything but an ordinary courie in bacterielogy up to that time, so they sent me to work with Dro Hans Zinsser, 80 my life really began to changeo 59th Street, back near the Rooaevelt Hospital in these days. Wnsser's Deparbaent and was c his vivid personality and energy, ideas, B ranging mind. 1915 and 1916, I guess, and then went back in late 1916, to take charge of that fifth floor laboratory. came along early in1917, but Dr. Zinsser was a most charming, fascinating persong Hewas a musician. When he wa8 in trouble absut a scientific problea, he'd put the problen down and go and get the fiddle and go fiddling around, fiddling in the laboratory, playing his violino He also was a vivid lecturer who was himself writing textbooks so that he didn't have to repeat anything at all. Do you want me to on with Ziwser? I went to Columbia, P & S Medical School, which was over on I went to Dr, d beyond resistauce by his characteristics-- I worlced there through I got set up and started to work and then World War I t g, No, I don'to end, and when I turn it over, I want you to take me first douu to Pan8mao '%e got to turn this reel over becauae we're practically at the All

Page  80right? mere's that marvelous little drawing of the Schistosoma mansoni you made the other dafi Well, here we areo I think you're entitled to your own views. "Historyn, what- ever else it nay be, is intensely subjective, and when we try to maka something objective out of it, we're w king rpomsthing thatuas not before you. You know haw we're called upon to make decisions on the basis of inadequate evidence all the time. nice and neat, I wanted you to go back because ia 1912, there's a digression mybe, or opportunity is probably a better word-you didn't have to return to New Orleans. You received an opportunity to go to Panama and this, in part certainly , was the consequence of a recjvmendation frm Dr. Welch and also the fact that a relative of yours was there, General Gorgas. So the story can't really be the way historians write about it-all 0 I My going to Panampa elll~e through my relative Uhm I called "Uncle Willie", but he was my cousin, Colonel William Crawford Gorgas whowas the Chief Sani- tary Officer of the Panama Canal Zone. I don't remember when I had seem him before I went to ya~a, but there was swm preliminary talk with hirn before the letter from Dr. Welch. Gorgas and told him samething about it, but-let's see, Colonel Gorgae had been Sanitary Officer of Panema since 1904. cleaning up yellow fever in Cuba, after Walter Reed's work, and in two years he finished yellow fever in Pam. There wasn't any more yellow fever-in- digenous yellow fever. I saw some yellow fever down there that drifted in from Yyaquil and Ecuador and in the Panama Hospital, but there was no yellow fever arising in panama in 1912. parasites, typhoid fever and skin diseases, so I went down there in June, and I probably asked Dr. Welch to write to Colonel He went there right after he finished . Thnre was lots of malaria, lots of intestinal

Page  8181 I stayed down there, I think, until ne rly October. You became an expert--and very easily when landing on the dock, and that's worth telling. I becam an axpert by accidentally reading, as I usually did, anything that u 38 printed that cme in ny way, and on the dock at Colon while I was waiting for the Custan's Inspectors to finish with my baggage, I saw a rather tattered pamphlet of a few pages on the floor, picked it up and read it. It was an article by Dr. Lewis B, Bates on Scliistosoas mansoni which is an in- testinal fluke that gets in the veins in the lower part of the bowelo fenale lay8 its sharply spined eggs there, and they work their way through the tiasua and cause a great deal of troubleo I read this paper which told about the egg and about the life history of the worn just to pass the time. The Well, I went that afternoon from Colon to Panam and was sent to a billet in the bachelor's quarters, rather in the dark, and I spent that night scratching and tossing around, on a blood streaked sheet which was the habitat of bed bugs and h by other people who had left an almost dark greasy pillow. early to go to the Negro ward at Ancon which was a very big ward, about ninety patients in it, Negro laborers, and Dro W. E, Desks, the chief medical officer, assigned me right may to examining feces in a mall roam in a little out ex- tension of the second floor of the building under a tin roof. in Panama at thatmason the sun is pretty high and pretty hot, although it was not yet probably eight o'clock, ana t'nis was a stinking place with two hundred and fifty s the mfcroseop. You take a little bit of this material, put it on a slide and The next morning I found that I had been lying been used 4 I had to get up By that time e specimens accumulated thereo I started to examine then under i?

Page  8282 look at it under th that I saw, had in it a perfectly beautiful, as I thought, lateral spined egg with a miracidium in the center. picture in that pamphlet that I had read at Colon by having accidentally picked it off the floor. Schistos,m mansoni, it must be a common thing, If I could tell what it wae) I suppose verybody would know it, so I wrote it on the diagnostic book which at that time vent on down to the ward *ere they were having rounds, and Dr. Deeks and others saw it and came rushing up to this roan and said,What did you do with that specimen?" croscope. About the third or fourth specimen I remember F I recognized it at once as fitting the Thinking that as I could recogniae it 88 the egg of the 9 I said,"I threw it out because I had finished with it,* They said,"Why do you think it's zchistosoma mansoniln Well, I told them, and I told them all about the worn. - They were amazed and unbelieving, so I had to find the specimen. there were these eggs in anything you picked up out of it. know what it was so they sent it down to Dr. Same1 T. Darling who was the CMef Pathologist of the mdical establishment on the Canal Zone, and he said, "Certainly that's hat it 58." We looked at it again, and Some of them didn*8 b It came hack, It was confirmed, and so the attitude of Drr Deeks and others changed from one of contempt to respect, and Ims given a white coat and a stethoscope and allowed to come down andbe a doctor. That's a marvelous story, Heow long was the to;tr? Just for the summer. Just for the summerD

Page  8383 I couldn% spend any more time, Was it straight ward medicine? You%e indicated sanitation. Oh, I went out with Colonel Gorgas n malaria control occasionally and saw \. ditching and draining and larvicidal work and some nosquite control work. wasn't just seeing patients by any means. I saw th analr At that the there was no water in the canal. lheywere still digging at Balbea, the last end of ito I saw accidents on the canal. I saw machinery working. I knew Colonel David DuBose GaiUard who built the Gatun Dam locks. with Colonel Gorgas at that time. Williams who afterwards became the health officer of Baltimore, nearly drewned in the-well, it might have been the Miraflores River. River. We started outneral Gorgas, Williams, and I down an old railroad embankment -where the railroad had been moved off. This embanheat had becane covered with brambles, and the water of the Gatun Lake w88 rising all around us, a picturesque thing, CQVered withwater, and there uere great big tarantulas on the tops of the sticks that were up in the water. getting deeper and deeper. We were going from a place called Frijoles to Mira- flores, and we orget about the fact that therbd bee+ bridge through a culvert there. breast high holding ow watches and cameras averheado heavy shees, and all of a sudden we stepped off into about forty feet of water, and we went down and up and down. I was gasping areund. on to my watch and q camera while drowningo let them go" It + I used to wander arsund He and I and a bay nanmd G. Huntington Itwasn't the Chagrea There were 'mnas up on the low branches of trees half We went down through that, and the water kept 1 This was a muddy kind of water. We got to walking with the water about Of course, we had on I was still holding Colonel Gorgas said,"Pou fed,

Page  8484 I did. Then we started out to swim to what we could see were the dl I leaves of the top branches of trees that were then 83.1 submerged, Weed get ta a tree and put down our feet, and there was nothing to rest ona pretty tired. After we did find a place to rest, we were in three separate We w=ro Fine trees. Colonel Gorgas was in one tree. I was in another, and Williams was in etill another. embanbent was, so we explored around and finally Colonel Gorgas was the one who found ito He apparently had been able to swim acros his feet duwn on this embanbent. He called us in, and we got back, but it wa8 This vas muddy water, and the point was to find out where that he river and let ae a strenuouar time. We had taken off our shoes by that timr3, and this enbanbent was covered Kith brambles which rather tore our feet up by the the we got back. I only laention this because it war such a close risk of a life of a man rrtps really vas a figure who contributed enormously to the welfare of the world, and that's Crawfwd Gorgas. -they never could have dug that canal without his sanitation af it, but he had a great belief in the value of the tropics to the white man. He said that He probably not only made the Panama Canal possible when the pllgrhns discovered Aaerica, they opened up a valuable territory for the white man, but that what aanitatden was doing down there was opening up not only an enormous territory, but one that MS richer and could be better suited to the life of the white mano He finnly believed that the life of the white man would benefit enormously by the control of communicable diseases in the tropics which is pretty trueo He also had another belief which later got confouded, and thatwas the belief that once a thing is extinct, it won't cane backo and say,"The dinosaur became extinct, and they aren't any mere, and if we"--not He would talk to me I; he didn't talk about himself much--"make this yellow fever vlms agent

Page  85extinct, it will never come backen That was his belief--eradication and finish with it, but he didn't know at that timb about jungle yellow fever, sonkeys in the tree tops, The yellow fever wa8 prevalent in the There's no way to get them to come down for treataento Well, thw are getting st it now, In a ca8e where a disease is transmitted 0 de I7 by an insect, you hava a greater power over it than you have diseases tb.at are trlanslaitted directly from hruPan being to human being because you can destroy the Insect, the breeding of the insect and get rid of it entirely,, That would break the chaino Ilhc)rels no such tranm~tission in influenza, for example, and you We a horrible time. yellow fever had been eradictated in the United States and frapl "anma, and themts a great eradication pregrm to get rid of all of the Aedes seggpti nm, and I think Ohey'll do ito This was sort of a chance experience at preventive medicine, wsn't it? Was the Hopkins oriented along gr eventive medicine linear? Through Dr, Welch later om-1 forgot to tell you that one thing that flattered me into going into bacteriology was that Yinteruits couldn't find any- body very well to take the position, and it was vacanto A rather able man, William We Ford, had been the Professsr of Bacteriology there for years, and

Page  8686 hewasn't doing so well at this time. He dropped out, or was pushed out-I don't know which, and Winternit% wanted me to take Dr, Ford's place, and here I was only two years out of school, with never any training in this subject, being flattered by being effered the position that a professor rtra sure that appealed to my vanity in some respects and ny wmse of power too, though I don't knowo It couldo In any event, I took Dro Ford's placeo Dr, Ford wasn't interested in preventive medicine too much. He was kind of a basic minded biologist who thought that anything that had, we'll say, a medical implication, could be applied, was not sufficiently remote to be worthy of being called basic!, Well, that's not true at all. I changed that course right amyo For instance, when Dr. Ford wanted to study the formation of aporss in the bacteria, he'd go out and get doplle innocuous spore bearing organ*, ism from the soil and have the student work an that. When I took the course, I put the atttlaents right to work OQ anthrax. processes a8 spore formation, but it produces a fatal disease, an extraordinarily interesting disease in cattle andman. The anthrx spores in the ground were e4 great interest to Pasteur-all the fields got contaminated largely by tbe Anthrax has the 88188 biological A 4 spores caning up from the buried cattle. digging up and pushing the dirt up-well, if you take a medical student and The spores were brought up by worms teach him spore fornation en an organism that is medically significant, there's a burst of intereat that doesntt occur when you take something remote from the 8051, It was the same thing with the capsules on bacteria-the pneurpococcw has a wonderful capsule which is extraordinarily finportant in all its reactions and what it doeso So does sane slime forming organism from milk. When Dr. Ferd would get around to studying capsulers, he would get this thing out of milk that

Page  87had no Medical significance at all. types, and we*d study the capsule and study something about pneumonia. Well, you can do that in medical teaching, sans tima.,.. I took the capsulated pneamnococcus of all You can teach the basic process at the That you're involved in samething vital to medicine. Yes, with the practical* I asked you if--yOu know, about the preventive medicine that you saw in the summer of 1912. You must have returned just filled with it. No, I don't recall that particularly became I had known befors 1912, a lot about preventive medicine and had assodations with it. I told you about Thayer coming down lookfng for malariae Well, at that time malaria was being prevented. Reed ern in bacteriology and immunology later on the founder of preventive medicine, and all of that for years had been going through +cad before I went to Panama. pansma was Just sort of a field ex- oursion into things that Iwas prettywell faariliar with. My cousin Willie Gorgas had done it in Havana. I know about Walter llow fever. When I was at Chicege my main textbook-and other books orge Miller Sternberg* He was --was 3 + Also Dro Welch had a very deep interest in preventive medicine. In 1916, I gczess-April of 1916, he founded the School of Hygiene and Public Heax h at Hopkitme Hopkins University where he had an office and talk o him about the founding aP that schoolo I know he was deeply intergeted and searchingo Same of the thing8 he worked on early like the Welch bacillus were important from the point of view of preventive medicineo He didn't realize that tha Welch bacillus was I used to sit with him in an old building over across town in Ipt

Page  8888 80 important in causing gas gangrene in wounds in soldiers and what it formedo He fourr! the Welch bacillus by-well, he did an autopsy on a Negra, woman once and found the vessels in her uterus just full of air inste-d of clotted blood after death, and he got the organism out of that. %e second the he got the organism out of dead dogs found floating in 8ewers in hI.tinore, He actually didn't know that the Welch bacillus formed a sporo. deal about it, but it had great epidemiological significance with regard to wouad infection. He didn't know a good This he appreciated. Then Dr. Welch also knew the great founders of pre- ventive medicine. He knew Pettenkofer, Pasteur, Robert Kocho Se it was in the aire Yes. In talking about Hopkins, you didn't mention the surgical side, The surgical side was interesting to fie, but not attractiveo The great He reminded surgical. professer that I admired very auch was William Halfsted. ne of$sillsk--if you knew what I mano He had eyes that you couldntt see almost, and he had a very dignified and cultured wanner. dressed. his shirts to Paris .tD be laundered, I was once o twice to his house to dinner, and he had a superb aervice, servants, table linen and silver and old furniture. Lister in surgery. He was a very skillful operator, and he had a most delicate He was beautifully He was 8 %an who had his shoes made in London, and he used to send i: tt Halsted was the great founder of the developments after Joseph

Page  8989 manner of handling tissue so that he didn't crush anything. He was also re- sponsible for introducing rubber gloves into the operation. 'Jp to that time they usre operating barehanded. I don't know much about surgery. Despite this long continued interest in medicine, I went through uhat a good maw people do, I guess, the Charity Hospftal in New Orleans when I was a student at Tulam, they took me in to aee an operation, and they brought a Woman in on a stretcher and started to cut the bandages off her abdomen with a pair of scissors. in 8 dead faint sight away, and I didn't uee the operation, up to Baltbam and was in the high stan, the sort of pipe like fabricated stands that yo* rolled around the autopsy table--I was up OR the top shelf, and I nearly fell off became I got sick at my stomache Dr, Halstsdre clinic, I was up in the anphitheater there, and he was operating, and I also got nauseated. it, but I neveras interested in surgery. Most medical students go through a phase like that. Wr..en I was in I hit the floor Then when I cane V 4 I remember once in I don't know whether that had anything to do with I Did ~QU get any work at all on Dr. Janeway's - xedi !U Dr. Theodore Janeway was another great character. When-well, there was 8 succession of professors who follo-sed Osler. Dr, %rker, Lewellya F. Barker, had written papers in favor of the full time plan, but when he got down aero, be decided that he didn't vant to give up his practiceo He ha his office outsideo With long, long fingers and a long ~88, very precise, and the wost extraordin- ary teacher. He knew evetrything, but he knew it because he boned up before hia clinics. There is a man mer there now who is a professor in his eightier, and First there was Barker, and Dro fiarker was about six feet three L

Page  90he used to think my enthusiasms for Dr,, Barbr indicated that I didn't have any critical sense because what I admired in Drc Barker was tha3 his teaching was just as precise and effective as you could want, versation too. He was good. He would draw you out in con- Now Dr, Earker was succeeded by Dr, Thayer for a while, and then we come to Janeway, Dr, Janeway was persuaded to leave a practice in New York, corn dowR there and become a full tine professor, care too much about it, but he stuck it outl but what I liked about Dr, Janeway I think he was disillusioned and didn't I so muchwas his absolute honesty and forthrightness, although I started off in a bad way with him, and, 1'11 tell yon about that. l I When I was an i rn in aedicine, Dr, Oarker waa the Chief Physician outside of his being professor, and he used to telephone me before he'd make the rounds # ~ on the ward and say,What have you got on the ward?" Itd tell him, Well, the next morning he'd come in, ard I'd be standing I at the door with all the histories in nry am, we had quite a ceremoay when the professor visited-the nurse was there with a basket of pencils, knee jerk hammers and stethoscopes and whatnot,, Well, Dr, Barker would come through the door of the ward and say,What have you got?" He'd do this as if he hadn't telephoned me, and I would tell him and then herd think it over and say,"Well, suppose we see this case with alcaptonuriat1- we'll say, some rare disease, and we'd go and see him. lead him to the bed, and they alwap pull down the covers, make a physical examination, think about it $r a while, He went through all of that, and then he gave the meet superb lecture on alcaptonuria, but he boned it up the night before, Dr* Janeway was just the opposite. He was a rather sparse, dark haired L man with the kind of mustache that Hemmitagway had when he was unger-you c. '3"

Page  91know, falling down over the sides of the mouth, and he had a way of making ward rounds that was very different, the night before what you had, He'd ask you in the morning, He didn't ask you for a dia \ Head cme to the ward and never ask you I 815. Then herd get his historye Ha d just say,lfSuppose we see that man ever there." c) The intern would give a suarmary of the history, and then Dro Janeway would atart to examim the mano Rtart to work out the problem. Well, you could see the agony the man uas going through. around the bed. He would just struggls, You'd see him struggling out loud to get at the mysteries an he unraveling because it's very hard just looking en the outside ef a patient to knowwhat's going on QD the inside. He'd walk a Dam righto He impressed me a8 a very honest man who didn't want to be prcmptedo But again I had a bad start with him, named Wilber Oo Carlyle who had been the intern there the year before. This Is 19l.4, ''na talking about now, and Carlyle left me thirty-five patients who were very sick on the ward and about six people in the back room. We used to put them in a little back roan when they either weren't sick, or they were convalescento patients. Sane were bleeding-well, theywere awfully sick, I worked all might long to get up on the histories and do what I could for those people on the ward. I remember it very wello thereo nothing in particular, but, have you got any people in the back room?" I inherited Ward F fragi a big, tall fellow I had five of thoseo Then I remember five very sick typhoid Dro Jraneway took that ward his first round, and he came to the door- He said,"I don't want to 8ee any of those people in I know you've worked hard on themo x9ti sure you have, and there's I said,"Yes, dr,''

Page  9292 Well, we all trooped back there, and he said,"I can always tell whether I've gct a good intern or not by the number of unrecognized pleural effusions I findow DQ you know what I mean?-fluid in the chesto Well, lo and behold, there was one man there in a bed, and Drs Janeway had him sit up, and he percussed him. He listened to him for a mment, and he turned to me, and he hissed at me--the man had a pleural effusiono I hadntt examined hiw eve I worked all night on those sick people, Ji. \ Well, he didn't bear any grudge against me to get over that initial experience. a bad intern by going th ough his usual pattern of behavior* It must hav aken a while for him Maybe he wad pleased that he could find (1 4 Did you trade medical services, or did you.. 1 stayed on medlcine the whole time. You trade wards. Yau move from ward to ward. There was the octagon ward where this fellow wkth the diaphragm was) I thinke Then I was on ward F-the male ward with all those acute patientso Most of them were West Virginian miners. and talk to them a bit, but I was very immature lookinge at least *tve been handicapped by having prscticd3.y invisible white hair and a childish looking face, so that when I'd come in, these poor fellows from West Virginia would say,"We came down here GO me a doctor, not a childg" L 'd go an8 sit around their bed8 My life suffered, or That's good for one's morale, isn*t it? Well, theytre awfully lonely people, and they exist by thewelves. I think

Page  93I' 93 a patient sick on the ward is somebody to be nursed very carefully not in a aenthental manner, but enough to let them know that you're their friendo You herd notions of returning to New Orleans to practice. Did the experience at Hopkins--well, you had other things infrcut of you too. Ysu had acce8s to laboratoriss of professor8 who were large in their fields and who were opea to suggestion and would allow you to work, and you got that attitude. You could 860, happily with your trip down to panma, something of the Whole quostion of sanitation which is design engineering that goes way beyond just practiceo You must have confr@p$ed a much m8re difficult choice when you see it all laid t4 I\ sanitation which is design engineering that goes way beyond just practiceo You must have confr@p$ed a much m8re difficult choice when you see it all laid t4 I\ out and try to grab a small holding on the slopes of Parnassus instead of getting shooting rights over the whole of the mountain. How did you feel about the choice? Aa usual I didn't go through any agony of decision, After I said to Winternits that I would like to have tNs job, thatms that, and when I went with Hans Zinsrer that convinced me all the more that it was an interesting and fine field, Zinsser was a fine man. going to New Orleans any more. I cane back without any question of I Well, letla stop for today, and well1 go back to Zinsmr next time, All right.

Page  94F" 9li FriW, April 15, 1966 N. Lo Ma As I indicated before we turned this on, I wanted to go back to Chicago because I bumped into the name of a man there with whoa you apparently wprked in the laboratory, Fred M. Drennan, Yes, Fred Drennan was an assistant to Dr, Carlssm in physiology8 8 very large, tall mano He was an instructor clwe to you in the class work, helped very much on a11 the animal experin-entatione His letter here-and he has a fascinating handwriting which is different every I.im Q - Yes it Is, isn't ito He wrote you: self just as much time and effwt as possible on those last hundred exp_erimentsofl ----a 1 You must have donete __I_ a bit cf work. Miss Farrar at a lecture the other night, but-GdnIt get toxak -*-- to UI hero haps by now she maq-have some expzanation of your results withll--I can't make this word outo "I have received your notebook 0,K. and IIrn glad you saved you- in this- - he writes: ItI saw Par- -- - "1 gave you my best efforts the morning we were doing the work. Don't worry too much about ite Just leave it to some research masrid he'll mars out -I of the idea a witt, note, but you must have been working pretty closely .IIuI-.yI with him, ot know a-bout it eithero" A's Yes, Drennan was very close to us in the class all the timeo Was he good from the point of view of standards?

Page  9595 I 1 That's a good thing to learn. I didn't do any research in that physiology course that Iremember of any consequence, and this Fe.r:*.zr is a distant relative from New Orleans, from a family of the Farrars, Judge Farrar remotely related to the Denegres, and one of the Farrars in this family married Dr, Joseph Goldberger who worked out all the problems of pelagra. one of therams-there were about six Farrar girls, She comes She was in Chicago that suamer. I forget which You spent apparently not a little time in the laboratorAr Oh yes-long hours in the laboratory with difficult experimentso Was this Drennan's desipn of experiments, or were those related to the class - work? _L I think they were related to the class work, but this is a long time agoo It' 8 e e o e Well, it's 1911. Fifty-five years agoe Yes, I wanted you to mention him. You mentioned a wan in talkinaesterdaz and couldn't remember his nszne. 7- Dremn u88 Carlsonto assistant, I couldn' t rmenber the bacteri.ol@gisto His name is Harriao Later at Johns Hophim--thinking over what we said about the school yesterday- there are some things that occurred to me that you might want to comment abo-ato

Page  9696 of resources for patient care and how* thazfigured, the standards that they had with respect to it at Johns Hopkin8 at that tineo Tdell, it*s difficult for me to sort out the impressions I had as a student and intern at Johns Hopkins from the impressions I have from experience later on in being responsible for medical care, but I admired the mefieel care 80 such and wanted to have the benefit of it so much that I started te, substitute on the hospital wards in my second year--Just about the time I went down to Panama, Whenever I had the chance to substitute for an intxern I would take his place and take care of patientso We thought the medical care at Johns Hopkins was superior to anything else in the country, although we didn't have experience in other places to serve a8 a basis for cmparisod thorough. those men were not only conscientious, but they were scholars all the timeo Their patient to them was a problem9 really a research problera-I'm talking It was extremely Dr. Thayer, Dr, %rker, Dr. Adolph #eyer, Dre Theodora Janeway-all about the element of medical. care that bagins with the study of the patient and the effort to arrive at a proper diagnosiso Nothing was spared by them either in the taking of the history, or the using of such apparatus as they had available. care and the patient, on the laboratory side, they had excellent biochemical For the benefit of the medical laboratories in the medical department, and I know only about the medical de- partment. or gynecology, it's medicine I'm talking about mostly. Although I had some erperience occasionally on surgery or obstetrics, At that the two things

Page  9797 were developing that hard a great influence on medical care--one was x-ray. They had a great man in xeay there named Frederick H. Baetjer, He was one of the earlier x-ray men. He died of x-ray cancer of the skin later on. Hopkins was building up a fine Department of Radiology at that time. had one of the first electro-eardiograph apparatus. A man named Douglas S. Hirschfelder-I think he wrote the first book on that subject in this country. We were able to study patients with electro-cardiography in new ways. the specialties at the Hopkins were extremely well done-as well as the general medicine. In addition, they All Dr. Hugh Hanipton Young was the great urologist at the the, a fashionable urologist a@ so many of them get to be, and his main patient was "Diamond JimH Brady. ment, a building, hospital beds and laboratoryo nDiaword Jimn Bra* gave Dr. Young the money for the Urological Depart- "he superintendent of Hopkins Hospitalt when Iwas there, I)r, Winford He Smith,was a very careful man, a dictatorial disciplinarian with very high standards, I thought; indeed, his standard8 were so high that he mspected most of us of being crooks. year when the interns would be changiw, a certain number of thermometers, stethoscopes, knee jerk hammers, and other things disappeared frm the ward baskets, and Dr, Smith pvactically wanted to fri8k us as we went out, but that waa only a part of his high ethical standards in generala He was skeptical of the characters he had to deal with, but he insisted on the best you could do f 0r patients I must admit that toward the end of an internship, every Itwas a very rational therapeutic school, although they did some rather severe things that we got rid of after a while. treating typhoid fever was to put the patient in a tub of ice water and hold When I started, the way of

Page  98F' 95 him dawn in it, and thatnas very, very severe and hard on the patient, That therapy disappeared while I was down there. The other thing that they were doing which ysu nig t not think is good patient care, btit was done with the best scientific appreciation of the possibilities, wm treating syphilis af the central nervous system by giving the patient salvttrsarr, then bleeding the patient in about a half an hour and collecting the serum which contained 805116 salv man that had been in the body but perhaps got changed by the body, and then doing a puncture of the spinal canal and putting the serum in the patient's spinal canal system. That caused the most terrific reactions, headaches, and all sorts of thing. woder medical care of patients, we would find nothing different in the idea and the point of view of wanting to de the best, but, of course, they didn't have what you saw in that open heart surgeryo i A A 4 Te caanpare whatwas then done at the Hopkina with the : But the drive was there for patient camo Oh yeso c Itwa8 orientad along thos ines and 8eveTq. Yes, it derived from the Oslerian concept of teaching at the bedsideo They understood that the best element in patient care was to have medical students around because it put the doctors on their toes and kept up the iqterest, but that also cam from the French School of Louis and other people wfio introduced bed-side teaching, Incident ally, with Dro Jansway after youlJ been up all night preparing those case3 Dr. Janeway later reconmends you te Dr. Warfield T. Longcope for a position in in the light of the experience, the initial experience you had

Page  9999 Bellevue on some medical service theres so your initial hpresicn was erasedo I didn't mean to imply that Drr Janeway carried any grudge. He never dido That hsrrible sound he made*l.-he was laughing through his nose, or something like that. He didn't rub it i to me, 4 A ne other item that be been thinkinar about since yesterday and aero in- fectious disease is concerned is this whole epidemiological approach and whether this was part of the presentation at Joh I have to think of that to try to separate it from what I did later-I don't recall it being so strongly brought forward on the general medical service, although, as I said, I had a ward full of typhoid patients, and in considering them we tried to find out the source of their infection, and you'd read and talk about the contamination of water from privys, Where the epidemiological, or preventive medicine point of view came in most strongly was in pediatrics, and pedict'brics is still th eader in clinical preventive $edicine in many ways. b + 4 9 '\ I think I got an impression then that I c ied through later on that made ne oppose the eatablistment of a separate deparbent of prevektivs medicine at Rochester because I couldn't see ha* you could deal with the actual current rf situatienin a patient without ufidorst *ding or looking at the origin, Just th rdinary course of the study of a case involved knowledge of the preventiono For instance, you talk about heart conditions, heart diseases, YOU have to think of whether the patient has had streptococcal infections before and if so, haw did he get them and how were they spread, exampJe, and this process takes you back into infections diseases that on the surface qas nothing to do with the heart. epidemiological. mixture with the ordinary day to day observation of a patient, v + Syphilis of th eart, for + h I can recall that kind of preventive

Page  100100 but there was F~D course that I took at that tine thatwas a kind of epidemio- logical course that they would give now with statistical investbgation, of dealing with communities. We had practically no experience in coxmnunity health arervice, or the conditions in which people lived in communities, except in obstetricso 1 Fourth year in obstetrics we were sent out to deliver children in the poor quarters of Baltimore, under the supervision of one of the instructors, or assistant professors, on the obstetrical service. instructor didn't get there in time-did I tell you this? In my case one might the The instructor didn't get to the place where I nas in time. It uas down on Wolfe Street, thero. she had had previously a number of children, and it was quite easy. cleaning UF and getting ready to go, and to my astonishment she gave birth to another child, so she had twins, and I didn't know ito My instructor didntt come even then, but I had these two babies and fixed everytidng up, tied the card and cut it off and cleaned things. You have to make post-partum visits which I did with a little black bag, and this lady said that she wanted to A Jewish woman gave birth to a baby before my supervisor got This was the first time Itd ever had to deliver a woaan, but fortunately I was me one of those children after meo was a wizened little thing, me" because I--to tell you the truth-didn't think that it would survive, and I didn't want the burden of the baby, so they named this child Stanhope Bayne Saltzburg. aurvived through 8 very weak infancy, but wm able to come along, One was a hug child, and the other one I deSiberately said,ttWell, name this baby after Lo and behold, the husig. baby died, and Stanhope %yne Saltsburg I clothed and

Page  101101 fed that child nore OF less until I got to Rochester, and then I lost track of him. laundry-you knou, you see white women ironing for a chinaman. poor people down on Wolfe Street, so I learned something about the social back- ground of childbearing at least araong the POOF* I used to go down there fairly often. His mother was one of these white women who do the ironing in a Chinese Theywere very Patient care got an extension-I have that down here. home dated 1917, when you were abroad and were concerned about the boy, I found that in a letter Oh did I really? I was going to ask you about it because "patient care" does go way beyond tho Of courseo In this particular instance, she named this baby after you, Who did I write that to? This WQS to your "Tante En.--Octobr 5, l9l?'--snd you wanted her to send them some clothes-shoes was the recommended item. I must admit that my motives in undertaMng it were not,... These things happen-that's the interesting thina;, They unfold, and you have to play it by ear. beyond the hospital rooma I put it down that you got involved in patient care wq Oh yes. They had a great deal of that in New York which I'll tell YOU

Page  102102 about la ter. One other item at Johns Ropkins is in part a public health matter, but deeper than that. in Dr. Welch. Playbe itts stronger in term9 of that development in the iiocke- feller Foundation to help through financial aid young doctors to becorre better and better at what they were doing. Haybe that's part of what I mean, but the sense of public service was pretty strong at Johns Hopkins, wasn*t it? It's the sense of public service which I thinkwas pretty strong Yes, I think it was, but when I was there we were so closely oorncerllnd with the individual in the faculty that I didn't think very hard, or much, abast the outside relationships. Of course) Dr, Welch did, and many, many things you can ascribe to him in the way of pu'cilic 8erviceo was head. of the Board of Health. He was President of the American Medical Asesciation. He fought the antivivisectionists, af good movements He led legislative effsrts, He He was the guide of all. sorts Somewhere along the line while at Hopkins you Ret involved in something which is available to you in term. of degree--a master's degree. There were Borne requirements-an application and an essay, Did you file an essay? NO, I had done work, and I forgot what it was,, It was about 1917, and It's k I anted a master of saiencao based on sme of the things that are published there, and they may have been in manuscript form at the the. handlecr that degree and asking themg I had atadd tkis work without any I think they gave me a waster of arts. 9 I remember writing to the graduate school that thought of using it for a dagrem, but I asked the graduate school whether they would accept it, I didn't have to take any subsidiary courses for thiso

Page  103103 No. Thin was sanething which I think was available for someone who had done individual work I think it was about 1915, 1916, wasn't it? 1915. itself to another purpose, and it helps. They had this available,, about publications yesterday, and I know from my om experience that when YOU publish sanething, you wonder, apart from the close intinates that you my have^, whether Itla ever reado the machine on, a letter that came to you from Saint Thomas Hospital, Dr, In any event, you can begin soaething for one purpose, and it lends We tal I pointed out to you earlier, before we turned - Leonard Dudgeon, fram which it was clear that soneone had read one of your articles. i well, Dr. Dudgeon I didn't know personally, but I knew Of him4 He s a 0 pathologist of distinction, and I don't take a paper, credit for his having read my 4 It must have been on a subject in which he waa interested and when you find such a subject appearing as a title on a list of publications in a catalogue or an Index, you don't read ths Grtich You turn to see whether the man has noticed your worko the medical department in World War I1 that we have been publishing-the first thing that anybody does who gets a volume is look in the index to see if his name is mentioned, This is happening still. A lot of these histories of It's a natural human thing. be forgotten-I know of Dudgeon-it had to do with immunology. , . . I L

Page  104But if you've never h d this experience before, this wa a way in which you Rot E.c it quite early-you know, the Rotion that someone has read ito I What vas the year of that? This is 1916. a number of societies that were social in natura,, and one of themwaa a Medical History Club, a Drl, Nichols, and I asked you then, and ask yeu now, whether this was something to do, scmethinp to shareo meetings. I mentioned to you before we turned the tape on that them were A I find that you attended these I\ I was always interested in msdicbtl history, and 80 was my grandfather I have read a good dm1 of medical Joseph Jams, and he collected a lot of it. history, but no student could go through Hopkins without getting enthusiastic about medical history from these meetings of the Johns Hopkins Medical Society. It was a monthly affair, presided over usually by Dr, Welch, and they were very fine meetings, Washington? I don't remhember who Dr, Nichols was. Yeu say he was in It lnag not have been, but this Philip Roy writes about the University Club, 15th and I Streekthatto where his meeting is going to be held, but it does in- dicate the existence of a club that extended pretty far if you went to Washington to attend it* What year is that? Oh dear--it looks like 1913. Well, I was just starting then.

Page  105Yes, 1913e There's a Bulletin of the History of Medlcine still being published at Hopkins Right o I don't mean the Johns Hopkias Bulletin which had 8 wonderful lot of his- torical articles, but there was actually an Institute of Medical History there, Yes, but they were deep in thisr e Oh no, it was part of the atmosphere you breath4 4 Well, you've indicated that you read outside the textbooks away 0 Yes, I did. So you knew your way to the library-you liked to browseo Oh yes. The library we had at that time available to us was the collection of books in one of the ends of the main building. of the Hopkinre. The library occupied on the first floor about four large rooms with stacks, and then down in the basement there were a series of spaces fined with stackso surveillance. I wandered down the stacks, I never have stolen any books, so maybe they didn't mind,, It is a temptation sometime,, 'he Administration Building Somehow or other they let me go down in there without any It site is, Well, sometime in 1916, and thsrets a letter here froin Dro Welch, March 8, 1916: "I've written Zinsser tonight about your deedre to work with him." Dr, Welch encouraged this as distinct from working with Xoguchittwho is engaged on sm.e special problem and cannot undertake to give training." Apparently

Page  106106 this was, in part, I suspect a Rockefeller Foundation thinga No, this was getting me ready tc take over the fifth floere I did have B fellowship-a Eiockafeller Fellowship, seven hundred dollars a year o This plus the thousand that I got from my patrimorly, or wherever it came from, but I didn't work with Dr, Zinsser on the fellowship. I already had ito You already had the fellawhi, They were arranging for me to get trainiry--Dr. Welch was writing to help me get training to carry Qn the bacteriological and bnniunological job in the Department of Pathology at Hopkins. There's nothing prior to 1916, - 3bout Zinsscr-your desire to work with him, This is my introduction to Zinsser, but I didn't know Dr. Zinssw before thiso than I was, and before this period he had been a Professorrat Stanford, and he went from Stanford to Columbia P & S School of Medicine about 1913, or 19%--I hat the date was, but bcr had done work that interested me very much in I knew of him. He was a great ldadar. He was about ten years older v4 *Orget $I hunology, the study of immune reactions. He himsclf was not a physical chemist, but he glLI7aged to have an enthilsiasm for it, and he really was one that could do that, He was at that time more thought of as an immunologist than as a bactericfogist, though he was a good bacteriolGst. He was one of the first people to introduce physical chemistry into he had been -cu at Stanford, but in 1915, - he was a - -

Page  107107 member of the Red Cress Typhus Comission in Serbia. That s right 107 So it was amop_f where he was goinLtq ligfit. Of ourse, typus fever is what he became the great expert ine ic Right, but then, as I understand it, you moved up to New York for purposes of either taking a course, or working with M.no It was not taking a COUTB~. the ordinary sense of taking a courseo As a matter of fact, when I got there Drg Zinssar took me to spurs, used me as an instructor and then immediately-- I wouldt say he gave me a problem, but he arranged for me to start to work on some research, and I published a paper out of that research on the coexistence of antigen and antibody in the same serum, and that is a sort of physical chemical equilibrium problem - /%pilibria in Precipitin Reactions. existence of a Single Free Antigen and its Antibody in the Same Serum'' Experimental Medicine 837-853 (June, 191717, 1 had all the courses that were necessary in e The Co- 25 _3_ J of I gave that paper at the Association of hunologists in Washington, and I was taken to pieces by a very distinguished man who is still living and still working at the 3ockefeller Institute, and that's Dro Eugene L. Opie. Oh gosh yesbut did he really take you to pieces? As I remenber, and he's right, he said,'TYou just think there's one antigen in egg albumeno You have crystallised that, and you think you have a totally pura thing, but as a matter of fact, there are probably three or four antigenic substances. You get ri.d of one, and you can do another reaction and get some

Page  108108 more which you think is just the original one remaining in the fluid." I I think he 8 right about that, but I know also that there is-well, later it's bean shown that there is an equilibrium as there is in most things. get the compound form of the tkio substances that are present, snd then there is aLways a little of each left that is not united, or they might be united but not in a precipit)fl form, I remember that raeetiq down there, and I was very politely put in my place by an intelligent, able, and experienced man. YOU know Dr. Cpie? You ATE Do He drifted bEe just once, but I've heard comments about himo Dr, Opie is getting on to be ninety years old, and he's still working in the laboratory. As a watter of fact, years later when I was the Director sf the Childs Fund-we started the Childs Fund, and we'll talk about it another time-we started and got other peopkinterested in making provision for "the elder statesmen of medical sciencett, as wc called them, and at that time we made an appropriation for a stipend for Dr. Opie at tlre Rockefeller Institute. The Rockefeller Institute had a policy that they wouldn't accept any ouK ? I funds, but I went to see Dr, Flexner-I think it was Flexner at that time, or it might have been Herbert S, Gasser, and they agreed to take Dr, Opie in and let this money come in for his benefit, so all those things happen, and nobody seems to carry on any grouch about then. Par for the cowse. But this work--working with Zinsser on a problem like this-- how clearbas he? I got the impression from reading this last nighte.,* 1 Last night? Did you come back here? No,, I was thinking about it lastst because I had read it yesterday after-

Page  109noon, but this paper was an effort somehow or other ts pull loose pieercs of in- formation that had yet to be really formulated into some kindbf a floor, a basis upon which you could operate, that there was a lot of work that had been done that wanted a kind of rationale, I Yes* And that this was an aim in that direction,, Yesp because the suppositien up to this time was that these immune reactions were caarpleted affairs, that equilibrium exists,, We know it exists in many chev!.cal reactions and especially colloidal reactions which are shown in that paper. That work is net far from Dr. Zinsser'a type of work out at Stanford, I think that solved problem. e probably talked to me about it and said that this was an un- B I don't believe that his name is on that papere No. Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research. The om thing that is on it is that it is aided by a grant from the He got that, I didn't get it. It wdls something that he had in Ma de- partment, Yes, but it does show, I think, the fact that when you were a Rockefeller Fellow in Pathology, an assistant resident and pathologist, and instructor in pathology --ft shows a8 of this time a fourdstion which was interested in sustaining you% people, bright young pe ople at the source of development, a laboratory, as distinct from letting them go out and practicea %heir educational experience, an effort-ke sustain scientific remarch. Here it's an effort to increase c In I that dayy OU apparently had the foundation as you now have the NM.

Page  110110 I dontt recall any dealing with the Rockefekler Institute,, 'In sure that grant came to Dr, Zinsser's Department. Hau did you find him ,as a person? .Ifve read his sonnets, and they're marvelous. Isn't thst last one affective? Yes it is. You indicated that he played msico He played the violin-he called it a fiddle. To clarify? Oh-it did something for him. He liked musico He liked to listen to it. He liked to play it, violin pretty well. relieve tensions, and I suppose he thought while he was doing it. I don't think he played the piano, but he played the In the laheratory when he played the violin, it was to He'd walk up and down sometimes in stressful situations and play the fiddleo played it at home too, one back and forth* *Im sure he I don't know whether he had two violins, or carried Was he a particularly intense fellow? Very-look at his face in his pictures, He was a romantic, intense person His going off on expeditions was in his scientific work and outside of it too. something innate in him. life, would jump fences and throw him around against the rocks. American War, 1898, when he was about twenty years old, he joined squadron 4 of the New York National Guard Cavalry, and he went inta the Spanish-American He was a great horseman even up to the end of his He rode dangerous horses-he had horses at his place up near Boston that In the Spanish- c

Page  111111 C War as a avalryman. He got a sabre at that time which he rattled occasionally. One very musing but partially serious thing that happened was that he %ad a controversy with Dr. - /iiomer F,7 - Swift at the Rockefeller Instftute. great expert on rheumatic fever later on--nSpeedyll Swift, naturally, we called him. said so in print, challenged Dr. Swift to a duel with sabres, ;T He was a I forget his full name. Well, he and Zinsaer didn't agree, and Dr. Swift Dr. Zinsser got very wrought up, and to mttle the matter he He was a very sensitive man. Them he got interested ir typhus and went off on that Serbian expedition, That ws a wonderful thing which was done. so was Burt So Wolbach, and they did wonderful worko That started Dr, Zinsser on typhus, and he kept it UP to the end of his life. He was a little reckless with typhus rickettsia occasionally, and I have a feeling that he might have gotten a laboratory infection at one time or another, sick in the course of his work. Dr, Harry Plotz wad along too, and L1m not sure, but he got Did. he think epidemiologically? Oh yes, he was a leader in epidemiology* I mean even as of the time you went with him, after Serbia, after the Commission went over there and that frightful mass problemo That was after World War 1,wasnft it? No.--juat before, WeU, in World War I Dr, Zinsser-I know this because I

Page  112112 got it all in nyr history downstairs-he was head of the Division of Laboratories and Infectious Diseases in the A. E. F. at one timeo He also becanie what was called Sanitary Inspector of the First Corps and the Sanitary Inspector of the Second Amy. He was intensely interested in sanitation and epidemiology, What he says about a sanitary inspector in essence is this-a sanitary inspector has got to know not methods and laboratory methods. and his writings about epidemiology inworld War I are reat. Sanitary Inspector of the Third Amy, the Amy of Occupation in Germany. General Robert Le Bullard vas the General in command of the Second Amy, and General Joseph TI Qickman was in command of the Third Amya nly sanitation, but alsa be familiar with epidemiological i He could use them both as ready, pwerful tools, I got to be b Somehow or other they may have got to talking, but anyhow there came up from the Second Amy a manuscriot, of Dr. Zinsser, a rather famous paper called "Sanitation of a Field Arq," They gave it to me and said,"Herers your Bible," I read it, and I found that the field arrrg. he was writing about, the Second Army in the field, in tine Heuse Argonne, was different from the Army of Occupation that 1 was in which Was settlec!, living in houses, so I didn't use his paper much. this history that Just about 8 few weeks 3go I was putting it into a chapter in kiiting about World War IIo Well, Zinsfier was an epidemi- dogist of great note and very enthusiastic, He understood it too. Associations-the thingy you absorb-vorking with him, this kind of thinkinp;. Did he want followers? He had devoted people with himo One of my still unsettled questions I think of usually with regret. staff and at that time--fkis was 1923-i was at Hopkins with the prospect that He wanted me to come very much to Harvard on his

Page  113113 1 I might become a professor there of a separate departmento certainty about going to Harvard, and I told Zinsser I wouldn't go, but he had devoted people working around him all the time, I had some un- Among tbam is a Nobel Prize winner whom you may know, John F, Enders, who cultivated the polio virus in monkey kidaey cells. He was a Ph D in English, and he came to Dr, Zinsser one day and said that he wanted to work in bacteriology,, Zinsser liked him and took him in. He did that with Monroe D, Eaton who found this Eaton agent for atypical pneumonia. Ottenberg. He had any number of people coming through his work-Feuben They wrote a book together-Zinsser and Ottenberg. The Hiss and Zinsser relationship was very closee Everybody was-well, he attraoted you. Did he like independent minds? Yes he did, He taught in a Socratic manner as well as an authoritative OneO He and I had very close relatiom, even though I didntt go with him, and our r elations became very much more so when it came to this textbook. Do you want me to talk about the book review and the textbook now? No, we'll come to that, You've got maw more resources by that time, I was thinking about-in 1916, you'd never met hin before-a handsome fellow, n, and, you know, yo can be warped by this kind. of giant, I wondered wha% his attitude was towar But what younger people who came to him, Xould he look for the independence of mind? I*m sure hekd, I can't recall anything that he interposed either to studies, or ordinary conversationo A very nice thing happened right away in his laboratory, and it docs in some others-instead of going out to lunch some pro- fessors in a department have a little gas stove in the back, and they fqr eggs

Page  115114 and sit around for an hour eating friad eggs, or drinking coffee. of those. Very nicee Me had one Sft at the bench and eato Sit at the bench and eat. The same thing happened to me at HopMns, You Do you want to talk about that? haven't mentioned it, and that's Nu Sigma Nu. Yes. That's this lettero Well, it's bigger than that. Nu Sigma Nu is Q national medical fraternity, and I happened to be pledged to it down at Tulane, so when I went to Hopkina I became a member of the local chapter. 'tve forgotten what chapter f 8. They had a house at 518 North Broadway. I didn't live in that house. I lived in the house at 807 St. Paul Street, brick house with marble steps that are characteristic of Baltimore houses, was located on Broadway facing the Johns Hopkins Hospital, right across from it, and it has about twenty men living in there* want to lim there because it was noisy at night, would rather not live there, but I ate noon meals there and those were almost better than the classes. There were three classes, second, third, md fourth year men in each group of about ten, and they all rate together in the same dining room. they started quizsing everybdy else and quieses lead to arguments. learned more from those quiszes and arguments than I did from some of qf teachers. very valuable. tii 'he Nu Sigma Nu house, at that time, a single It got rather crewded. I didn't I studied at night, and I The men in the fourth year class seemed to know everything so I think I Just self-edncation, or mutual education in a group like that is When I finished at YspMns and was still around there, we decided to buy

Page  115the house next door and join those two houses. raise the money for it. and a thousand dollars from Dr. Young, some from Paul Clough and otherse took a sortgage and bought that home, and that was a burden for me and a worry until I left the placeo werd given notes to tear them up because ue c uldn't pay it. creased, and the members didn't have aw moneyo whowere members of that chapter who had taken those notes to start, never ex- pected that we would be able to redeen them, so this must have been what this gentleman was talking about when he wrote about doing so mch for the chapter. After I left, Dr. Paul Clough took it on, and he worried with it maybe ten years. What happened in the end I don't knowe Somehow or other I undertook to I got a thousand dollars, wetllsay, from Dr. Barker, We I actually went so far as to ask those people to whom 0 The expense in- R I think that the professors There's some question when you finished working with Zinsser, the publicatfan of that paper-was the intent to return to Baltimore? Yes, I was going back to the fifth floor 0f pathology in the fall. Yes, but than in 1917, which is the following year, Dr. Zinsser wants you to '\I I\ return 8s assistant professor with him, and he writes yoi two letters on the same day. Itw in Hopkins at that time, a_rtn(t I? Yes, but Zinsser writes that he'd had permission from Dro MacCallm to talk to YOU about getting you, Dre MacCallm had apparently gone down to Hopkins from P & S because it's Dr, MacCallm who writes you that while you're goirig away to the Army, Dr, Ford -will probably helpc When did the Winternit?, idea develop?

Page  116116 I graduated in 19a, and I spent the year 19a-1915 in pathology and Winternits was there then, the Heart Valves"? - r21 Am Journal of Anatomy 449463 (May, 191717. Did you see a paper here on the "Blood Vessels of Yes, that's herb. I did that under Winternit%* Dre Welch was not c hbat year is this? Publication is 1917. Well, they don't say when they received it. This is BrBdelta worko I injectedthese hearts and you see the vessels around the edge of the valve and around the chord- tendineae. Then I showed BrMeI twenty or thirty of those specimens, and he made a kind of a schematic drawing putting a lot of pieces together. Well, 1915. You duty. The that was done under Winternita, and I think that was in the year see, what happened while Iwas with Zinsser, I got called into active Rershing Mexican expedition was on then, and the 5th Maryland Regi- P ment from the Maryland National Guard, an infantry regbent, was called out. They asoembled in a field near the race track at Laurel, Maryland, and I was called down theres I stayed at least two weeks or so, and. I got what turned out to be infectious hepatitis there, pied a terre, or whatever you want to call it, to put my foct on in Baltimore, I forget how long I stayeda aaving no

Page  117I went on back to Kew York to the ,room I had on 57th Street near 3rd Avenue, and from there I had to 60 over to the Hospital. I went to the Presbyterian Hospital where Dochez took me and put me in a bed, Hecn worth a word here-Alphonse R, Doches, Alphonse Dochez was an intelligent, polished, court s gentleman, quiet spoken, a man I rather revered for his scientific ability. He was high up on the Rockefeller staff at that time, He was a close friend of a man we called "Fess*? - fiswald T,7 - Avery who at the moment WQS probably close on the discovery of what now turns out to be DNA. Dochez and Avery were so close together that you'd think they were entwined, They were Dmon and mthias, know Doche%* His taking care of me at the hospital was mostly a remote sort of thing. would loosen the plug of mucous and let the jaundice go by, but it didn't and I was jaundiced for a long time; in fact, I got kind of. green and you feel quite weak. Then it was getting on toward 1917, fk4 H called it the transforming factor, but 4 I didn't know Avery very well, but I did get to He was giving me purgatives because they thought that maybe that I got over that, and I went back to Hopkins after thatbas over, Well, you joined the reserve in 1965. Yes, I was a lieutenant-I think at the instigation of WJ rlUncle WiUieoll Yess Was that a time %:hen you had two weeks on maneuvers during the summer? Not necessarily-unless you wanted to take it,, Training at Carlisle Barracks is where they sent you1, Yes, but the first time you remember being on active duty is with the 5th

Page  118118 Maryland Regiment, Yes, tkiattt3 the first tim I remember. I may have gone to the Carlisle 'arracks before then, but I don't remember it, Thatta almost a normal thing in the reserveo Well, I thinkwe've gone as far as we ought to go today, Then we ought to go into.... I may have a few more things about Zinsser next time, Ne ought to get to that textbook business. the ad.vent of waro All right?

Page  119Tuesday, April 19, 1966 A-54, N. L. Me The documentation about the first world W4r is pretty good, A11 of tho lotters that you wrote homo, have been preserved and these two diaries w_- xhich are la-day by day accou-ks-you knoA as to where you wera, the time, the __)- sort of things you fell heir to, or ran into, _I_ Now webs alrs gotte-u into the reserve,, -_I_ I have fn addition to those diaries some other items I haven't brought out to you, great, big books of all the maps of our positions %hat we were in thraiighout +,he war with.ihe British and the Americans and a lot of photographs of the battle fields. You nean you've been holdins e.- out on Iu me? I didnft know you wmtsd that kr:.ri,3 of thingo The diaries-yell, hadwriting being what it u- is, I can't make out -- some the en- -_ tries . ---- _I_ You'd like me to bring that stuff in? I stare would. area. You make some drawings in the diaries, and Itve been over this - I've got all the battlefield maps of the whole thing. It would be very good if you would bring them in. I don't know that I will turn those in here to the library. I don't think they want them, but you can see0 They were very useful to me not long ago for

Page  120120 a grand-nephew that I have. He borrowed them, and e kept them for three months 1 I would understahd this period better because I look upon the maps as a visual fiuidc. 1'11 bring them in then because there are pictures of sone of that mud in Flanders with shell holes in it. swimming in a pond. You knew how the water jump8 up with rain drcps? how the ground was doinge I can remember lying there as if I was a kid That's People wouldn't believe this, but whea you talk about wading around ankle deep inmud-I know what that is, Well,, how did the call for active service come? Well, as I was about to tell yen-in my backgrouid there is either a military gene or a nilitary tradition, One of ry ancestors, Major John Jones was aide te Brigadier Lachlen McIntosh-I think that is his name--at the seige of Savannah during the Revolutionary War, He was killed there on October 98 1779* wandering all over the battlefields of the South. My grandfather Bayne was a major in the Washingtsn Artillery and was wounded at Shiloh. General Gorgaa was General Joaiah Gorgas, Chief of Ordnance of the Ctmfederacy, My uncle Hamilton Jollles went into the Spanish-herican War as a military batitalion doctor, so that with the things that were in my grandfatherts collectisn-arras and things at the heuere-I was brought up te be rather accus- toned to the military sideo Then there was my grandfather Jones in the Confederate military service The father of U The war--the first world war affected me rather deeply. I can remember when

Page  121121 it first broke out. and it just disturbed w no end for a further reaseno New Orleans, you were brought up in a Napoleonic tradition. my "Tante En and all of those just thought that Napoleon was a second Alexander the Great and even a second Solon. Be was the greatest law giver and the greatest military leader in the world. the Napoleonic songs and traditions that were in my youth as I grew up. wasn't strange to be wanting to be with the mililzdy in some way, but to get dowa to 1917. that time with Ziwaer and with the experience with the 5th Maryland Regineat fer a ahort time, the Maryland Infantry. in 1917, to begin work in the 5th Floor Laboratory, after the declaration of war which I think was about April 16, or 17, 1913, I talked to Dr. Welch about the future, and Dr, Welch told me that he wanted me to stay in Baltimore on the staff on active duty and train bacteriologists for the Amy. I was sitting on the porch in Biloxi when the news came in, If yeu were brought up in The Denegre family- You have no idea of the vividness of So it I was back in the laboratory in Baltimore, having bean away for I had came back ts Balthore early It sems to me that shortly I agreed verbally to thate What was in ayiheart I really don't know at this mement, but I came wer "I' to Washington to see my kin#sman, uUncle Willien, as I called hb, General Gergas , the Surgeon Generalr I was at that time a Captain in the Medical Reserve Corps, and I went into General Gorgas' Office which was in the old State and Navy Building down here on Pennsylvania Avenue, and before I said anything to him at all,, he said,"Oh, Stan, IIm so glad to see YOU. Lord Balfour was in here a few minutes ago, and he said that they're desperately short of doctora for British troops and battalionso get it out a get packed, *t11 get you on a boat in five dapOu I never told hiaa what Dr, Welch sent me over there for. c I know you've got a unifom, and if you can Now, thatts when

Page  122122 the decision was made. put me on active duty and to assign me to teach bacteriology at the Hopkillg in Baltimore, and when he talked to me that way, I didn't tell him. didn't tell him, I donrt knowo Something in me may have said,"This is what I want to don, but alsod would have been a little ashamed to have what the French call an "embuscaden job..-tucked away safely. I went over there intending to ask General Gorgas to Now, why I Did Dr. Welch understand? - Dr. Welch never made amy conplaint about ito He, I'm sureo understood. He himself mver hadiaqy military experience. He didn't upbraid me, or make any complaint that I remembero What Us private opinion was I don't know, You were set to go and sailed almost immediate-. Yes, I sailed early inMay. I forget the date. The 8th of Way, and I was ou a ship called the nordunan with the Cleveland Voluntary Hospital outfit under the command of Major Harry L. Gilchrigt who later became a general and head of the Chemical Corps. interesting medical people. nandical officer of it, and there uere several other mea whose names I could dig out, but I don't recall them at the moment. companions, but we were-well, there were five of w unattached to that Cleveland Unit on that ship going overo We were the forerunnem of a thing called the "Lost BattaliorPo They uere altogether perhaps a hundred or more doctors like myself that uere sent over to be attached to British outfits, and there is CL On that ship were sane very The great surgeon Dr. George Crile was the chief They got to be very interesting

Page  123123 book published that is in this library on V!he Lost Battalioritto We got over there, and we went around for a day or two with the Cleveland Unit in London and then mostly OR our own we met, or had a conference with Sir Alfred Keogh, the SurgeoaGeneral. hard to pass aqywhere without having to drink some liquor. pressing grefreshmentsa, as they called thata, on you, and even we five with the Cleveland Unit were received by King George and QuesnHary in the garden at BucMngham. Francs, He turned out to be a captain of a British canpaw in France that I got assigned toc They made a great deal of US. It wa8 Everybody was I met a captain one night there at a club, and I met him again in Is this Captain Lindsay who put you in the cer of a room at some banquet and played the star spangled banner? Haybe it was. It was N. E. Lindsayo Well, do you want we to go on to France? You had a bote to Sir Alfred Keogh, and I think that when you had the con- ference with his, he called you aside and told you that he was writing a special letter for you. the same thought in mind about their service as you did. You wanted to be with a battalion, or at least you expresred that ideao - Now, I doa't know whether the others in the group of fire had - Well, Sir Alfred Keogh sent me first to the 69th Field Ambulance in h?rance near Messine Ridge. At that conference-well, it didn't progress very welle We were sitting around the table, and there wa8 present a Lieutenant Werett De Plass who was the Chief Obstetrician from the bdical College in Iowa City, and Sir Alfred lbogh said,"Now, gentleman, I want to place you where you can

Page  124124 employ your specialties and do some interesting work as well as serve the soldiers in this war", and he said to Plas8,Whatis your specibiltfl" Plaas said that he was an obstetrician, and that set the Surgeon hneral back. He said,"We don't have much of that in the Brayon I think he stopped asking questions at that point, I really doo Actually orders were slow in coming because you went to the Base Hospital #4 with the Cleveland Unlt for a time, up around Rouen. Yes, I went there just as a rider on the Cleveland Unit for food and clothing, and I stayed with them until the orders came for me to go to the 69th Field Ambulance. We had scme maneuvering type of exercise there. I renoem- ber that we had what was called in those days a bangelore torpedo which is ia very long metal rod with explosive in it. You were to shove it under tine barbed wire and then blow a hole through it. Come oa--tell me about it1 I hate to say allything about a great surgeon who has done good work and has passed on, but Dr. Crile rather shocked US. He had a theory of the p 0- genetic origin of dhock. He meant that the more higay organized your nervous 7 system was, the more apt you were to have shell shock, and hi8 serious purpoee was to reduce shell shock in soldierso He began to invent double wall helmets with padding inside of them to take the shock away, ear muffs. He invented dugout doors which, of course, never could be placed and if they were placed, they wouldnff, stay there. varieties of animals and plants thatwe could. chickens, dogs, frogs, violets, and God knows what. He sent ue down into Rouen one day to collect all We had come out later leading I think I had to paws in 3

Page  125125 front of the crouched British soldiers waiting for this explosion to go off leading an eel. The explosion went off, and the creatures were blown up into the air. A lot of them didn't mind it very uch, except the dog the dogs came down out of the air and lay panting on the ground, and Drc Crile said,"You see what I told you? and he's got typical shell shockg" few of b k There's the highest organiged animal we have, Arthur E, Eisenbrey-1 think is the man's name-he and I took some of those dogs behind a building and did an autopsy. We found that their mesenteric arteries had been cut by little fragraents of this torpedo that went througho They were dying of hemorrhage, but the professor was satisfied that it was shock. Well, I didn't stay there too long, There hadn't been much work on the problem of shall shock, had there? It was a funbling,beginning--this collection of bugs, animalso Is that in there? Yes4 There was another offer made to you about this same the fraa a Dro Charles F. Hoover-I think it is Hoover-to establish a laboratory for the study of trench fever with the Cleveland Unit. Maybe. Trench fever was just beginning about that time to be recognized. It was supposedly a typhus-like disease and probably might have been carried by lice, They never really worked it out thoroughly. They thoq.ht they had found a rickettsial-like organism which they called Wohlhynice. They thought that

Page  126126 trench fever came frm one of those Balkan states. I had it-Ifa sure--at a very uncomfortable time. I'm jumping way ahead, Americans, we moved up to the Marne River-we'd had a little rest with the 26th Division back of Verdun-and on up the Meuse River on the right hand side of the bank, We had to mrch at aip$it and rest in the day tine under the trees. Well, the doctor didn't have much rest because he spmt the day fildng blisters on the feet, teristic red swelling in front of the shin bone, very painful legs, and a little erruption. In 1918, when I was with th6 At that time I had fever every day for a while and this charac- I think it lasted about ten days. You give the tenperatures in this diary, and they were quite high, Md I put all that in there? Yeso being made a member of the Johns Hopkins Unit, Unit? There's one camnent in June of - 1917--ths simple statement, that you avoided I Were they near the Cleveland - Yes, those units were cdng out. I was with troops, and I liked troops, and I didn't mint to get sent off to the hospital laboratory. only reasono All my frienda were in the Johns HopHns Unit, but if I had gone there, the same thing would have happened as happened to me when they aent me to Mjon in 1918. and do WaipsellBlan reactions, and I didn't want that. That was the Did you get to that? Theywanted to put me in the laboratory I got onwell with troops, and as I said, 1 didn't care very much about the outcane of my life in the war, so it didn't matter, except that I didn't want to stay in the laboratory,

Page  127127 You had a succession of talks with a colonel who wouldnrt talk to you at first- Colonel Russell. to talk Kith him, and he said that he wa6 going to move you to a battalion, but that the first thing you had to do was go to a gas school, which is a brand You got a telephone call the night you finally got a chance llgw thitqo Was that Colonel Frederick Russell? I believe so0 He became a brigadier general, a very eminent nan. He introduced typhoid vaccine in the United States Army about the time of the Spanish-American War, about 1900, I think it was) a brusque man. with Colonel Russello I had no real personal association e Exaept that you uantd to get on to troops. You spnt a good bit of' time in Rouen. The Cleveland Unit really didn't have a place for yalthoughq were 7 affable, as were the British who were being replaced by members of the Cleveland Unit, but you wanted to get on to the business of being a medical officer with a battalion, out with the troop8, 80 you went in and knocked at 2 his dooro night, youreceived a telephone call, and the first thing you had to do was go to a gas schoolo He didn't give you the the of day the first time, but late that That was reasonable. Everybody had to gotto the gas school. That's mu snd novel, You haven't indicated any experience with gas. No, I didn't have any experience with gas, and I did. have a new experience with the hcrrible type of gas mask that you had to use at that time. It was a

Page  128rubber contraption and it covered your whole face with a clip on your nose like a clothes pin and a respirator that hung on your front like a knapsack on your back, I think they did expore us to some gas, Mostly it was a drill for putting on a mask and behaving. we took any, although I do recall that there was some man about that the who I don't know what risk we took. I doubt if showed that a human being could walk aroutac! in hydr acid gas that was killinn dogs right around him. But then you went on a train ride and finally a Ford car ride to the 23rd Mvision-a replacement cmp0 The British 23rd Division-I ill belong to the Officers Association of the 23rd British Mvision, get a letter every year to caae over to London to dinner. I don't remember anything about the train ride, or where we went, but the 23rd Division is what 1 got into, and 1 think I went to the 69th field Ambulance first, The British were at that the just about to blow up Messines Hill south of Ypres. Well, thatwas a very fine ambulance company, very strict discipline, and pine people-Scots, I'll get the 11613316 of the coloml in charge of it af'ter a while, but 'Ive forgotten it at the moment. The only ones I have here are a Captain W, Go Johnston, a Captain H. R, Macintyre, and a Colonel Hammerton, Colonel 0. H. L, Hammerton is his name, I said replacement camp, You did join the 69th Field Ambulance and then for a - -- time you were sent off to the 70thflwherever you were needed, A replacement in that sense a \

Page  129Pes, but thore mren*t very long in aag one place. No-~ctuaUy until you mt attached tp the llth Sherwood Fwesters. Yes, tho 11th Shemood Foresters which mibd =e no end becaus uhen I i grew up, one of the things thatwe wed to do at homewaa play Robin Hood, and Iw as Friar Tuck mamy times, God-that's a great lepracz; It was natural. They must hare been sapethingl The Sherwood Foresters were Yorkshire, a Lanctishire battalion with very I aoom got to know the major in charge at that tia8-Colorral He admittad the doctor to broerd accente. Charles E, H~dso~, and I stuck very closo to him. his headqwrterr, awl I was with the caaandhg officer all the time, practi- calv from the tiWa I joined thaa, but it wasn't lang before that b8ttaliQB weat oa up into the lines at Dickebusch-I tK that wo8 the plaeo. Yea--where the first gas attach began. Dickebuack? Per, it waa-just outside of Mckebusch. I rgamber the first c gaa attack was syl ga~. I reaember the queer, whistling, wobbly sound of the shfill caring over with verylfttle 6xploSiQn. We had working partisr out just beyomd a little empb;mlcraent where the road went across a sort of marshy K plaoo. There must hare been two han8E;rd men working out there that ni@t bringing up elephant iron, sand bags, all sorts of thing. This shell gar eame over, and nobody knew what to do about %\It didn't bean to be espeoially e

Page  130130 poisonous, bat it wasn't more than about tea minuter before we found that it was a lach~?ymiatorg gas. had maqy men lying out there. 88 to what to do, but I had sane cocaine solutioa, and I found if I put it in the eyes, they got rid of their pain for a while, but it cam on worse when the cocaine wore off. 1% 3uat cawad awful ~nflammatioa of the eyer, and I I made a mistake. There wro no instruictioaa men ia that suue plaeo we Bad phosgene shell gas attach, and in the tiiamb plaee at various times we had mustard gam, so I saw then aU about that the, but I dldntt have any trouble with gar. Tbis hohrymatory stuff didn't 808~1 to get in a gas musk because it was 80 suffocating and se obscuring of the vision that I used to put the clips 08 my lt88e and the respirator end in my mouth and lot the rest 0f the mask fall dm so I could eaeo Phosgene Is horrible. after the soldier breathes phosgene be eollapses and st+ to eyes. I didn't pay much attention to the proper way to handla Not long ed a Bleody # pink frethy stuff all QI~W Us faem. I hat later OB in 1918 with the AmeriGptw. This was in J uly, and there were a succession of attexrltr with gas, but this is something new. These were the first gas attacks, Yea're in trench warfare, alnd this is the Ppres rector where the 8 .IzL- and thee were changi- rauad all the tine, 8 Yap- eundeer with a uhance to clean it UP. "heremre dead horses, dead men, feues everywhere. Is there an anecdote 4 in there about how the English soft speech cy erccsaplish what the herican

Page  131131 speech won't? No. You told me this the other dag. It's a 1parvelou8 story. it in with the language, however rip it 'JL~S be from the American point of rim, because it - s real. I wish you'd put 1 I can't me those curse worddo I was walldng with Colonel Hudson one night along the bank just north of Zillebeke with abut seven hundred men, I think, and there were four British three inch guns firing aero88 the road, across this enbankment, and we couldn't -88. Ye were due up front to make the relief, and Colonel Hudson went up to the British gun r, and he said,"I say, old thing, would you dad stop firing off that silly Rld piece until I get my nen by?" 4 C The gunnar said,nM.ghton, and they stopped firing these four gw--I glWS8. We went byo Well, about a year later on the banks of the Meuse near Sammoneux, there were split trail, long hundred and fifty-fives firing straight from the river bank up across the road going over the neighboring hills-I mean the shells did, and the major I was walldng with went up to the gunner and used the aost vile profanity, called him all sorts of name8 and asked him how he thought he could get his 103rd Infantry acrwm the road. major that he could sit down on his behind in the mad there and wait with his men because he had orders to flre two hours, and he was going to flre two hours. They got each other so BW~, and that's where the war had to stop. at that tins with these guns firing Itms a very sharp squabble, and the gunner told the infantry -re is a differewe in the approach, Oh yes-soft speech got it all the timeo What sort of resources did you ham a8 battalion medical officer? What did you

Page  132have to rely ea? With the British? I started with a pretty good little medical chest, but you can't carry awhing that is at all weighty, so I took out of the cheat bandages, sciesors, I suppose some bottles of iodine, piUs--aomethes we had some pills that we used to give for diarrhea-I forget what they were, a few things lib that and put thm in a gunny sack and carried them on my back, little battalion medical place, and they had gunny sacks on their baclar, so ue didn't carry much. We also wried as mawy Thmas splints as wa could, tied up together ad haaging over tur ehodderse You know what a Thomas eplint is for-broken legs o I didn't take any anesthetic, took a few I had three or four very devoted aide men with me in my 0 The stretchers wre carried other peopb We had about eight stretcher bearers most of the time, but atretcher bearers gst awfaly worn out in the mud, and they couldn't make more than one trip anywhere, so we had te impress all sorts of popla inte servlce. camanding officer to let him have the bando I think I broke up three bands in the course of that tlme because as 880 8 a atretcher bearer gets back with a patient he generally joins th utfit he's with in the back area. If a bandsman gets back there, the outfit behind wants a band, and they keep him, 1% wasn't long before the doctor persuaded the + 9 Md you operate from an aids statioa? I didn't do much operating at all. I just did first aids stuff, 1 did the best I could, cleaning out pieces and things, putting bandage8 en and

Page  133stopping bleedi~g. is forgotten in the, and the limb becranes pos8ibly gangrenous. You hd 80 sany thinga that you cauldn't really handle, and the aide statioas weren't built I didn't put any heavy tourniquets on because I knew that w aide ~tatiow. tung called the Hboge Henin Road running frm Ypres to Henin and just at the beginning Of the Battle of Partmhendaele we went up through there, and there was an old otrltert under the road and a Utq tunnel dug into the shoulders of the, road, That- the aide .tatden, and it was full of blood, people dying on the floor, hot and smelly, but you sau 80~1. brave things thrsre. I renwmber an Awtralian one night who came in holding his foreanaim his hand, ad it was attached to his uppr arm by just a few Shred80 It vas bleeding very much. I asked him how he, got that, and he said,"I stopped a five point ne with my elbowoa I resember one we occupied quite a while,. There ma a e Hell, a five point nine ahell ia a good sized shello I cut hi8 arm off With scissors and bandaged it up and got hir away, You see things that you can't do anything about. station In what remained of a sort of a around on which a race track grandstand had been built, M I remember it tmi, was as much space as the top of a snaU table. The In the saae Battle of Parschendaele we had our aide There was a tunnel in that-very mrrw. The most roos I had, oor ms covered with wounded, Iremember some wounds like this-a man brought 44 in with the *ole of the froat of Mu ah31 lifted ap. You csuld see his brain. Then it come8 around few e'clock in the morning, and that'r the the you could get people out with stretcher bearers. That's a very hard tinre for the medical offlcer, Tht'a, the time you' e get to act like God Almighty and deoide who i8 going to get out and maybe live and wbo is going to stay there at die. The rule with me and rout of the medical offloeru vas to use your I Y st

Page  134134 stretcher bearers to take out the people who had the best chance of 8urvival. You go through this. You can be close te a man who is moaning, in great ma, horribly wounded, and beggiw to be taken out, and you have to decide that you're going to take somebody elseo That happens over and over again. As a matter of fact, to jump way ahead, i s now a part of the official 4 policy of the civil defeme medical organlsation and the Aaericaa pAedical A880~iathlz in thia countrj.. regard to who youh going to take care of. Suppose you have an ataic bomb, the rule mu is that you don't waste pur tirs on people who are sure to die. You It's a~acmt a revolution in medical thiing with A try to do something fQr thme who aro Ukely to survive, and that is ia prink. That's a great change in nodical attitude and thought. as a ratter of necesrri. though, didn't you? In the war? Tea. There v8dl dy 8 lMt.6 aumber of people pu hd who could take people back0 - How close were the general hospitals te, the line? %--it wasn't general hospital8 that you took them back to. The general hospital would be back 8 hundred miles or more. These wore the snall station hospitals, little tent##, raybe five mileis hack, but pou didn't know alwsys what it YM. had an effect en thicr man. Itwa8 a180 %a the Battle of Passchendaele which was a horrible slaughter. We wre beyond the Hooge4eni.n Road, gsing to whstls I had an clxperiencse one night that sounds like amera3 Piatton, but it

Page  135called--I think it's Polygone De Zonnebeke, an old race course, all shelled up, mud to your t), and one of the stretcher bearers with me WOEI: named Corporal Tongna-did you run across his name? A Corporal Tongue waa about six feet three, a strong man, and a shell burst verg close,, Corporal Tengue who wae a stretcher bearer lay down on the ground and started to shiver and cry sad wanted to be taken back. Somehow or other I wm able to pull that nan up to hia feet and when I let him go, he fell dewn agaih I pulled him up again and slapped him in the, face as hard a8 I could, atxi he fell down again. Then I kicked him on the bottan of hi8 8hoss, didn't kick hin on hls flesh, I kept badgering him until he demid$ that he couldn't get baek. He got mp slowly and put hi8 weight and azm around my neck with his I weight bearing on me--I guess a couple of hundred peuods in the Mud, and we went on up to the Polygone De Zomebelm where the battle was very thick. "hat man mver left me fraa that time en. If I'd seat him baek, he would have been a shall shocked psychiatric casualty, He'd bring me tea at four o'clock in the morning when I had to get up for sick call, He carried rpr latrine around, a little box. He becue my batman. - I think that that's good treatment maybe. In Korea they tried to do a great deal of rehabilitatioa right up near the sound of the guns still-at the front, Well, those things in after thought enter Into your general philosophy of medicitm and what the principles should be, but at that moment, I wa8 just thinking of survivalo man back with the few stretcher bearers that I had when he wasn't even hurto I wasn't going to send this other things that happened in a battle like that were very unexpected and dis- tubing, but can be worked out, I rennernber a Mg captain up there $this L rf.

Page  136136 Zonnebeke region, sfficer separated from his men, lflng on his stomach with his face in his hands, just blubbering. He'd lost control of himself, and he was no wore in command of his caapany, back* I was wanderiag around in the night, and I found this I dust sat down and talked to him a while. He didn't get sent Yeu certainly had no experience for baubardment. Be *ore\hi s? I don't know that there is alr;y uay to prepare yourself for what it really iso Ho. Even in this Battle of Paaachendaele I must have went half to three quartem of an hour one day being shot at point blank with a cannon. Did you find that in there? Ghelmelt River about four or five hundred yards frm US. pill box the door of which then faced the Germans. to put same sandbags around that door, and as soon they started shooting at u.68 and these shells would wbis; by. hit just above the door. of the doore This little pill box WQB about six feet in one dinension and about eight feet long, against the back wll for a while, thinking thatma a safe place to be, Saw- body would 8ay,aThet's fooliahl If it Bits the back wall, it will spread and It was a Gemn cannon, a small cannon across the I was in a dugout One of us was fooliah enough a few sandbags were up, 1 Several of them son^ of them hit below the door. Same hit the side There were about five or sir of us ia there. We crwded ", get us all." We criwded up to the front wall and then they'd think they'd get it on the long back shot, but fortunately none of those shells came in, kind of a shelf near the roof of that heavy Oeriuan pill box one night and the Also I was in a

Page  137137 6heU hit the corner of it and the top of the roof started cdng down on me. "hi8 was an area that had just been taken from the bnnans. Yes, in the Battle of Passcheadaele. Yes, the door became an open door toward them when they retreated, fine so long as you uere on the other side, but their door Yeae I got a Military Cross in that battle when I wai with Colonel Hudson. The Shemood Foresterr were going up to take over in the line. %ey had been en reserve, or at least in the second line until that tine, aud believe It, or not, we were having tea--about half past foiu. with a battle going ~n. There NU an awful bang, and the dirt fell down a little cement stairway into the dugout, and a soldier came down rather alaraed and said that a lot of men were hurt outside. Colonel bison looked at me and said,Well, Doc, I guess it's up to yon," so I crawled up through the dirt on the tdruay and went out, and there were wouuded men thsre. 'here was a lot of bdsrdment. I got back for a couple of -8, but that@@ I - i I don't think I got a Military ~roii~ Just Incredible things happen. I didn't believe I could be hit. I stood on that mud talk-to an offioer and a shell came and the mu next to me was gone, The same thing happensd to me, The shell goes down into the gro d and it bursts, and it has a kind of a i

Page  138138 full fan shaped explosion. You can be between thoae scatters. Te5, you can, but that's very much of a chance, to the point where you can tell from the sound where it's going to lanhyoa Imm, mu get a 8eme as to whether you should dive to the ground, or 8- cover. I think after a while you get * That waar 10 hypothetical bit of comfort becatme when you hear the sound of I a shell, it s gone by you, * Yes, but psychologically it was helpful, It's gone by you-unleaa it's 8 big howitser shell that has gone way up n in the air and is coming dawn. We used to hear-the Mg Gsrman naval gam uere off DunLirk, the Belgian coast, aad they would fire on Mckebusch, twenty miles or more. You could see their flaahes and hear the guns. Was there much mortar fire here? A oerUaln amour of rortar fire, not a good deal of it. They had another thing-instead of B mortar, it wae like a garbage @an, a foot and a half in diaaetsr, and it swirled up on top of the trench with two or three explosiogs. They didn't have the same kind of modern nQrtara that we have. Those you couldn't hearo Tell me something about what you can learn from what the huaan body can take frm the Sherwood Foresters, from all the things they were subjected to-clinate, everything else. It is incredible What the body can take-cold and wet, hungry, full of lice, dirty, Bobody is going to pat you on the head or hold your hands. no use weeping. l?a#ue--you get so tired that you don't know you're tired. There's

Page  139139 I These men--a lot of them; well, in 1917, the war had been going on since 1914; and a lot of men were approaching forty. 'qney were that age group, the prime young fellows who had started, end they could take ito and quite strong at that time. They weren't I was well I don't remember very much. My feet didn't get soree I got plenty of lice. Mdntt we. At some point the Sheruood Foresters were pulled out of the line, sad they were directed to the Italian ceerpaigno after Caporetto, uas it? iln not sure why. Thfr wasn't I guess it uas. Ye$, it was the Caporetto retreat that bad happeraed and the break through on the Isoneo front. on the run. They were stqped at the nave River. c The Austrians had broken through, and they had the Italians I !hat s as far as they got. c. At this junture-they were entrained, and you were too. You mentioned another man, another American by the name of Long. 1 Yeso Lester L, Long is a physician out in Seattle, I think. He was with the Keylies, the King's Oun Light Infantry, and that outflt was also in the 23rd Division. fit. It belonged in the 10th Cerp, I think, bad a canmarider named Lt. General Morlanch, and in one place in Flanders we =re reviewed by the Crown Prince -kiward. The 23rd Division felt that it wa8 a pretty spic and span out- But technically ---the United Statee-wasn't at war with Austrj.a. No, that botbred me a little technically because I wanted to go with the Shemod Foresters. warntcd to stay uith than, but they did go to Italy wlth the British 23rd I didn't care whether theywent to Italy, or Africa-I

Page  140Division to oppose the Austrians, and I found oat that it wasn't proper for ne to go with them because the United States had not as if that would make any difference in the outcome of he uar, uhether I was there or not. After I had gotten to Italy and everybody was quiet about this, et declared war on Austria, 7 dpt no diplolsatic episode occurred, we did declare war, so I was legslised. This waa ~ a different kind of warfare than the flat, country tspe of warfare in Flanders very different. The whole country was rocky. The Have Riverwas low. It was just a ma88 of boulders. sort of in mountain valley8. hill called Mountebelluno, just north Qf Venice, bat the shells that hit these rwka scattered like evergthing, and the Awtriads apparently had huge mortars- maybe thirteen inch, stmething lib that, and they'd fire them over the mom- taius, snd they'd cme straight don the valley and throw rocks all around. The fielda were hard, and after a while we were In the first place, we were in softer ground, a It wa8 getting along tsward uinter tooo It war getting quite cold, and the Italian habitations were qgite cold. They have a little firer place in the middle of 8me room. you atand around, but before this Italian experience was mer it snowed, and it ups quite cold. %ey kept us on the move all thebias. We kept ware0 at night, but we had Paarchb8, rout$lrarches, emm48ss and the docter had to tagbong too. It's open hearth, and After you detrained, there must have been a march of a hundred and forty some milerr. - Yes, there was a march from Haatup to the Piave River. It was a very long,

Page  141hard march. Major Munson who developed the Munson last for the Americatn soldierts foot. British shoe excoriated your heel in no timeo of the big toe. in no time, SQ much so that almost all during that march f fixed feet most every might for most si the night, te put soldiers with blistered feet on two things-I could load ay medical cart with soldiers, and I could put a couple of soldiers on my horae. I could let than take turns, but the British were very strict againrst stragglerso The British marching discipline WPI wonderful, end there mounted officers would really ride a man down if he fell out. We vent down these battalion roads in formation, looking good, everything shiny, and on the other ride of the road coning out of the line were thousands and thousands of raggsd Italians. You remember the scene8 in Hemingway's Farewell to Arms? It was exactly the same thing. These men would go by and pick a field bare. They were just like locusts. ou the floor8. As a matter sf fact, they had soae way-I don't know whether they evacuated themselves into their hands, but you would find these lumps of feces sticking to the ceiling, so they'd throw it up on the ceiling. Anyhow, it was a pretty disorgaaioed and unkempt lot. The British had no-well, they apparently never had an efficer like The It hurt the instep, the joint It would pinch the toes, and every one of these men had blisters Iwas a mounted officer, so I was allowed They would go and take Italian houses and mess them all up, put feces lhey ought to have been good soldiers. I think they were undermined up there in the Austrian Alps by propaganda. Part of the propaganda which I picked up and which impressed me was cmning fraa the clergy. clergy 8aw an opportragity to let Austria come through there and bolster the power of the Pope. well, at least the rations weren't given out to these men up in the pountains. I think that the Vatican That's what we supposed. Auyhow, there was a shortage of-

Page  142Soauething disorganized them a great deal. I never knew the whole thing;, but there was supposedly propaganda fra the clergyo generals at that tire. Tbs Austrians had some good They did. There's one thing that welve averlooke_d_,land that is that you went through this area in France before; in fact, you were there in 1908, when you took a tour with the family,, Yes, xtd been to F'rance twice before this, and it seemed like the country I had seene That appears in the correspondence hme, while you're not able to convey what the town is because of censorship, you do indicate to then that this is something that they have seen, or you described the flowera, or sething fdliar. Y$u \ 0 got a chance while still in France to go to Paris0 What was Paris like in those days? How unreal was it with reference to the war? - I wasn't in Paris twenty-four hours. That's right. You got recalledo (II I went to Paris, and I went to the Hotel Meurice which is a spiff'y place, got a rooa, and I took about three baths in the afternoon. and called on my Uncle! Hugh Bayns who was in the Judge Advocate General's Office somewhere down in an office there. I think that it was this time. We went out to dinner and on the way Out-1 think it was the same evening-I th ught I'd better go and report to the British Military Office there. and they said,"Oh, ue're looking for you," and I had to go back the next day. Then I think I went i I did go and report, Yes, they had r8CeiVed orders to go to_Ital.,

Page  143Yes, well, I didn't know whether they were going. 'hey nade me go back to Abbtaville, BS I memberg Abbeville waa on the S-e River smewhere. You did get a - chance finally after this period in the northern part of Italy to go to Rome. To Roars, yes-ten days. Rome in that time was a very social and pleasant placeo good restaurants. /e ha6 an entre in the British kbassy dorm there. 4 I did sight seeing. I believe we got that leave extended a little bit* I was tagging around a little with Colonel Hudson who We met a good many people, snd hen I thinkwou had orders Co rejoin the American Forcesb Therevr one thing about sanitation. You Hean where Colonel Re Jo Blackham gave me the devil? I don't remember that very well. I remember some neetingo Everybody had a lot of diarrhea, but I said something which, if I vaguely recall it, made him think that I was too crarelessl of both the chlorination of water and sanitation. I think there was a dinner, and the comment you make in the diary is that "no one aremed friendly." This was a dinner for-I guess the 69th Field Ambulance. Well, it ww some organization in Italy that was over all the medical people. Yes, well, Colonel Blacktiam W~LI called the ADMS, the Assistant Deputy for Hedfcal Services, a staff officer, and tie lived fa a nice Italian villa. I wed

Page  144to see him occasionally. He lived in regal splendor, had been serving a long timi in India, and he had wonderful sort of Maharaja clothes that he could sit in the evening in, but Colonel Blackhata didn't carry anything after the war against ne because I had a certain aaount of cerrespondence with him; in fact, I saw him once, snd he wrote several books which, by the way, minds me that I meant to bring you some. There is a large amount of diarrhea during this period. Thisrbs Decenber. I Tes-in the banka of the Rave. It was more than diarrhea. It wm dysentery. It was bloody dysentery. How effective were the British laboratories? Did they have laboratories to study theae problem? Not that I how of. They were studying thesp, but I never saw them. A lot \ of good workwas done in England and various places, but we didn't have any laboratory support out there. a replacement. When the Sherwood Foresters would get orders to send ten men to another outfit, you'd pick oat the worst actors that you could, line them up. 1 remember that this man standing there fainted, and the Sergeant %or uas pretty rough with hir. pulled his pant8 down, and he had bad dysentery. We all had a oertain amount of diarrhea, but there actually VO dysentery. I don't know what organism it was, but the Britiah must haver found QUL 1 reaaeraber one man standing up to be sent off 85 I came up, and this soldier looked sick to me. I You make some9 colglnent about the rUpp$ag of your trunk for warmer clothes- couldn't lug this stuff amur It wui in a back area, and when goszwent front

Page  145F'ranm to Iteand in December in the mutltains it got cold. What about accem to dothing. I don't remember any suffering about that. I had a heavy trench coat, and it SO~PLB that it was in that region where ~e had a Christapls party with saae hot rum punch, and the padre was there. He and I left about mid-night, and we had to go aroud a narrow ledge of rock, and I fell off and slept in the snow a13 dght. Is that in there too? Is it? ??e, sir, it isn't. Irust have been a little mixed upe It's surprisinghat you can d+ LI Yes, I had a heavy trench coat. Where I got it I don't know, but had S no shortage of blanketa. We vnt theea up on quartenaster trucks. I wondered about supplies, even medical supplies. I had no 8hartag;es. There is some indicatioc in the diaahat on one occasion the aedlcal supplies By shell firee Yes. But there was an enomow 1iPitat;ion on what you could doe Oh yes. Yeu didn't do anything, except 8ry to keep the trenches a bit clean# try to keep the latrines covered, dig new ones, but it is no fun digging a latrine in the rocky banks of the Piave River, although the Italians could

Page  146I right through the rock. I I That is commented on in the diary-that they must have been good workers, 1 although you didntt get that impression as you watched them retreaze No, they were protected, and they were used to doing that kind of work, There were sop18 labor battdions attached to tb British in Flanders. Alwaya labor battalionso They would dig trenches, and they would put up barbed wire, The main protection they had was what we called W.ephant from", whit* a half bent corrugated Iron that you'd put up and orawl under, It wouldn't Stand Ow bulleta. Then order8 aught up to YOU, I had to wait. They said,Taa can't be ordered out of hers by an Amerioan order", and a@ they had to work tht around0 to work that arsund, but all tothe good, 3y that time I got up as far as the A8iago plateau. I think it took Q couple of months 9 started an attack - on that. Pee they dido That '8 where Colonel Hadson got the VC one night, He stopped a German potato maher with his feet, and it blew off most of hi8 feet, but you couldn't kill him. He lost his feet in that, or at leaat part of hie feet, He had cerebro-spinal meningitis, and he had a ruptured duodenal ulcere You couldn't kill hh

Page  147He was ready for duty. Then you had a fairly quick ride hck to..,. You went first to parls, then to Chamant, and they finally sent you to Dijon. Chaumont was I must have gone from Paris right on out without any stops. Pershimgo Well, yea went to the urollff statiea in and missed the train, Oh, did If Got eut there a little bit late, specified that you were going to join a laboratory ia Franee. I doat% how that yau knew, or that your order8 I got there. I don't how why. Colonel JI Fo Siler was in charge. Right o Bra Zimser was around there sorewhere. Well, your orders are datad November 2lst, but you didn't start to move until the follwhg March. Yes, there was a long wait in there. TherLs a Lt, Colonel Crilchris%o I 188, that's the 8- Gihhri8t that brought Over the Cleveland vat# and he later became a general and the head of the Chemical Corp8. Who is %uereil Bradley and Colonel Ireland?

Page  148In 1917, when World War I started, %era1 Pershing wanted General Herritte W. Ireland to be his surgeon in the A. E. F. in Franee. here, and he wanted to take Ireland as his surgeon, but General Gorga8 wanted Colonel Alfred E. Bradley to be the surgeon in the American Expeditionary Force because Colenel Bradley had been in London a8 a lasdical military attach6 in the hbssy fer 80me yearas and waa actually ever there. policy and staff relations, and '%e r etsntly reviewed the papers, 80 I know. General ciorgas recamended that Bradley be made the Chief Surgeon of the American Forces in France and to have the authority mer those medical establish- ments in France equal to what the Surgeon 'eneral kiad over the medical department hem. ships which extended very far an citerested us throughout tan World War II alsoe Pershing started from 1 It,@ very interesting about Thatwas the beginning of a very important difference in staff relation- 4 To amr your question about General Ireland-Generd Ireland succeeded General Bradley along about late 1917, and was the Chief Surgeon of the A* E. F. until, I think, March, 1918, abscess of the lungs, and he wasn't very well most of the time, but Pershing didn't want him. General Pershiag and "eneral Ireland were both very intelli- gent and aggressive men, and General Pershing thought that no one stood between him aad the troop over there except the President of the United States, and he had the bitter row) aa you remeaber, with General Marsh who as the Chief of Staff, 88 much 80 that kneral krsh get eut an order saJring that the Chief of Staff was the immediate cmmnder of all these forces. General Pershlng didn't py any attention to it. All that is written up in %nera;l Jams G. Harbordls books and other thingr~. They had a bitter tire, but General Pershing was dealing constantly with the President at that time-it was Wilson, wasn't it? That set a tradition for the theater commander. Even the modern theater COB- General Bradley had to quit because he had an k A

Page  149149 mander is like a viceroy, like a satrap, like an independent oc9amander-ost independent, and that extended down to 'enetal Ireland, the Chief Surgeon, who made vast numbers of changes in medical organization, policy, administration, supply, hospitalioation in France that were quite contrary to the published regulatiom and accepted things of the Surgeon General, 8c it made a split be- tween the Surgeon 'enera1 and the Theater Surgeon that existed all through World War I1 alsoo General lorwan T. Kirk and Ge mral Paul Hawley--Hawley was the Chief Surgeon of the ETO. They got together pretty well, but post of the surgeons over there were quite independent of Washington-as much as they couzd be. General of such renown-I tkdnk he held that office for twenty-three years, greatly respected, brought out the greet history of World %r I* Have you seen that? Ireland then becarae Surgeon General in October, 1918, and was the Surgeon Yeso What I was thinking of was that a8 of tbia time when he made the changes, you make them with reference to the scene you see in front of you. Oeneral Ireland, when he made the changeso as to what comes to you and hou you're going to handle it0 It's almost on the ground discretion That's what he said-thirs moving warfare in the field was ao different from the static barracks, post-like things that had been going on in this country that he had to make changes, and we had over two nillion men Over there which is terrific. I don't haw whether you saw them, or merely mentioned the fact that they were---

Page  150I thiuk you saw a mdor, reported to a major, and they s ent you on to Dijon where the laboratory was, where you talked with Colonel Sibre a docgor there fromHopkin$-.Hussey. Wasn't Hussey there? There wa8 also Yes, Raymond S. Hnssey ua8 there. We was a pat ofogist, and he goes in and i out of my relations for naqy yearn. He was with us in mrld War I1 in charge of the Amy Industrial Hygiene Laboratorg in Qaltimoree Oh yes,, Zinsser was in the tide of glory, so to speak. Zinsser loved troops and liked movement, and he WIS a very important man, had charge of a division of infectious disease and laboratories, and he was the Sanitary Inspec- tor of the 2ad Army at one time. Corps-well, in one of the corp8. He was a very able, imaginative person who did a lot for modernizing field sanitation, First he was Sanitary Inspector of the 2rd Do you remember the labmatory installation they had at Dijon? 1' No, yeu-while you we there. 1- I was only there about four Qr five clap, and I didn't do any work. I moped amund until 0118 morning when I was sitting on a bench by the front door, and Colonel Siler came in, and he said,Watl Are you still here?" I said,"Yes, sire* I couldn't say I wasn't, and he said,%di the hell out of here$ The 26th Division is on the road, and if you can find them, you can Join themow

Page  151I did. This OS~S the M~w England Division* Yes, that was the New England Division he Yankee Divisiod-from Maine, bsachusettbi, Hew Hampshire, Vermont, and thatfs all, I guem, A Captain Harry ktin Is laentiorrerd in the diarz. Oh, Captain Harry Martin was) I think, a regimental surgeon f the lOlst t Infantry, Is that right? Yes * - Gad, how can I remember those thingal You had - to report to hime Yes, I went from Dijon to Tou3.e where the headquarters of the corps were located--whatever corps it was thatwas up there-just 88 fast a8 1 could go. Fortunately Iwrs picked rip by a Briagadier General John H. T. Finney and camled in a oar up there. 'hey didn't know Iwps coming because I had no orders, and the Colonel-I forget his name 4 the moment-said,nQ1 right. You want to go with troepe. They're up the line at a place called Wontsecwr-whioh is a bare hill rising right out of the plain of the Worn occupied by the Germam looking right down the throats ef the Americans in horrid sodden trenches. Iton talking; about is near a town called Seicheprey. Did you ever hear of the Battle of Seichsprey? The region Well, Martimas a vigorous, short statured man who was a good soldier,, I

Page  152didntt have to see much of him. the regimental surgeon. I was under him 88 battalion surgeon. He ya8 You arrived there on April 2nd, but your ordews are dated April 33th. Thatb often the way, What's the difference between joining the 3rd Battalion, lOlst Infantry a8 wmed to the 11th Sherwood Foresters? Wen, the difference was in the language, the habits, the food, end a8 far as the experiences in the war went, theywere very much the same as being around Ypres. We were in mud, and we vere being shelled all the time, under machine gun Pire moat of the time, and under the observation of the Germans who had the high grepnd. I didn't know anybody. I had nobody like Colonel H~bon that I admired so much to talk to and do anything with, and when you come into 8 thing like that you pretty well catch 011 88 to what you're suppoaed to do and go do it the best you can, but again, I did the same thiag I used to do with the British and I did it all the rest of the war, go out on my own and look things mer. I wed to go out on patr Is at night. I had an experience-i'm sure that 4 ; frigtrt made it poaaible for me to walk o mter like one holy person dido I was aut about a thotrsand yards in froat of ow lines. There was another man, sad a party of Germane cam8 in the dwk with their rifles and we lay down. They went talking lou in German, and after they went by, we lit out to get back to eur trenches. There was a shell hole as big as a house, and 1 ran right acr-8 that without sinking, and Wh8B w8 got to our liner, a man stuck his head up with his rifle and said,Who goes there?"

Page  153153 It was something like that, but I was over the top and on him and knocktd hia dorm before he could dobnything, You know, It's surprising whatever it is Will do to 8 person, what you can do given a set of circumsta1l~e8. I 1s s just incrediblel 0 Yes, if you get scared nough. (k Whether it-sbhe adrenqlia that racrker yon Lve feet tall, or makes you run I the hundred garb in nine flat, or whatever it is, somehow you call forth far more power under certain eircumstanees like those that you describedo Then there came this Battle of Seieheprer. The Qeranans about thla time, I think, pushed the Americana out of Seioheprep and Seicheprey is a town lying ou the lawes dope of a verylong hill going out into a very marshy plain over to this RIontsec and to another region called Boio Menieres. there to the 102d Infantry because the doctor ha# been evacuated. Well, I wsnt in there, and I had been there for a while under a picturesque man aa~red machine Gun" Parker. He ma, a New Englander, a very buccaneering type of man, talking all the time ef what he could Q with machine guns, but I don't know that he did particularly mucho Well, in that I took over a static position, Seicheprey was almost in no nanl8 land. It was rubble at that the. We had post8 sll through there. fraa the Oermans in a counterattack starting early one morning, and that's the first time I was ever fired OR by our own guns. The artillery fired eight hundred yard8 short and killed a umber of the 102nd Infantry boys who were trying to get to Seicheprey. Also whrle I was dm in there, I used to wander around and talk to soldiers in trenches, and that was my first experience with at?ything huaosexual. One soldier called me asib and said that he had to talk 'hey s ent me in I must have stayed there three weeks. We retook it

Page  154to me and pleaee not to let them go through with the erder to assign hh to the battalion headquarterr because he ~aid,~The sergeant looks us over and picks UB out and gets us in there and molest8 us." The sergeant was a fairy. I looked a little further into it, and I found that homosexual practices were fairly common In that particular outfit and I never saw anything as demoralidng, Everybody was suspicious. Apparently there is something about according the Pavers of a man to a man that acquires far more for the one uhobves it, a great deal of favoritism, and it was an unjust tset of affaks. That got reported down 10 Chaumont and very strict orders came out about that, but it was 8 most disorganizing thing. Wasn't the 102nd overrun, in part? Yes, that was Selchepreye men they had to retake that area@ Yas. That's when you went up in there, they looldng down on you. This was underneath the Germanso Werent$ L f Yes. Here is a place called Beaumont on a ridge, ard then iaagine this hill that goes down like thalhdeicheprey would be here and Montsec there, but therewre woods That was the time that they were using cylinder gas. We shred a lot of it-great Mg gars eylinders like these carbon dioxide cylinder8 that you see going around on trucks here. A friend of mlne, Captain der- P. Webster, was a gas officer, and he pulled up and left about twenty of these cylinders right outside of wy aid post. ver here and deep trenchea. A If a shell

Page  155Well, the cylinder gas is what started the Germans on their chlorine attack on Ypres. They unloosed the chlorine in 19lb, I guem. Rough business, but you had a long time cleaning up this place after you had taken it. Oh yes, it wa6 horribly dirty. There were dead horsesl dead Germans and dead Americans. It uaer soggy excrsarent all around. There vas a period of traiaiug that you went througho I don't know how long it lasted, but it would seem that it ran from the latter part of April on into Just cleaning up the place. Bernecaur t There is a whole series of tom--Buconville, Yes, I know that. That'@ down in the valley, 1111 bring you those maps. Then there was a phosgene attacko Was that the raid we put on? They put on a raid against the Genaana one night. 1 think the trenches were onlfoatsec, very deep trenches, and they had been used by the Germans a long time. mid-aight and were all lying around. We had white brassarb on OUT arms to It was our own phos ene that got US. %k crawled out there before a

Page  156tell friend from foe, and I think there was a Major James Fa Hickeyl-do I mention his name? I don't know why his name eihould cme back to me after this time. He was in connnand, but he started running around in the dark sayingBftWhere on eqh is my PC?" He got excited, lost his way, and lost his head so somebody else had to take over aud get ready for this raid which was to start around four O~C~OC~. They had the most wonderful artillery fire. They had what they called a box barrage, a tremendous barrage of all the guns sounding down parallel to ea other on the sides, %cross from ch other on the back to keep people frola coming in and in front the fire moved in while these two lines were firing dawn the sidesg So we went in behind that barrage. You don't need to get hit if you don't get too close. I think they had more artillery in that raid than they ever had at Gettysburg, and all w~t caught was one little German prisoner. I remember this man. tore the seat of his trousers out. he was the only capture we made. captured one night tm hundred and some Germans--about twenty of us captured them. I didn't. took their belts and suspenders off of them, 80 that they had to walk through these woods and trenches holding up their trousers. them. '%ey were absolutely helpless I= He slid down the side of one of these deep trenches and That eolibarrassed him more than the war, but It gave me an idea later on which I usedo We I wa8 with them. We had no means of guarding them all, so we They wouldn't let go of Well, we threw phosgene over into the German side, but the wind was wrong. Itwas off to the right, I think, and it all blew back on usI latent period. You don't know you're got it right awayo tating. there was auy gas cming, but as they aU went back, some of these men began Phosgene has a It,s not very irri- There was so nuch dust and noise and smoke that nobody could tell that

Page  157to get sick and vomit. mouths. cases of phosgene poisou-these nen lying out there with no antidotes and no knowledge 118 to *at to do. I don't think any of them died. Some of them had this frothy stuff caning from their 1 went back with them, and I think I must have had several hundred Atn not sure. We got thm all bP~k to the hospital in mbUlBtICe8. There was a decided shift in the Windo Yesit ms off to the right haad si, if I remembero e've gone as far as ought to go tPtdw because hereafter you get raised I in position. - I became bgimental Surgeon of the 103rd Infantryo Which is a different thing than being Kith troops. Well, I stayed with troops-is this thing still on? Ita going to turn it off.

Page  158idednesday, April 20, 1966 A, N, L. #. There are a number of it-$ which intrigue me-one of which I ran onto in the diary. Itve already mentioned it tQ you, and yoube indicated that y~u dontt ramember much about it, but I wondered whatrelationship you had to the sense of discipline a8 it manifested itself in Bnsy law and the system of eourts. - The British? With the British and the Americans. I had very little to do with the courts, except two court Bnartialrs-the one that you mentioned with the British which Irve forgotten, and one I'll tell you about laker with an American which is quite interesting involving, a8 it did, 8 soldier in a battle and the Psnily potentates at home who had political power greater than the power of the camanding officer. All sorts of things aroso, With the British, I admired their discipline very much even with this Sherwood Fors ter regiment made up of older men who had had practically no military trainingo Ejy this time in the war-it was the third year for Great Britain-the discipline was good and strict. we'd call MPs, Military Police, on the ground among the soldiers and there were e 4 I, 'hey had representatives of what I good many prisoners a11 the time in the battalion, soldiers under disciplinary p~nishraents~ or confinexuent. Curioualy enough I used to sleep right next t he prison, right next to the room where they put these prisoners, and I could listen to them talking and hear i about some of their problems. They were not at a1 utinous, but they still had a very independent spirit and would do petty things. They would steal fra the 3p

Page  159local civilians in the towns where WQ) were billeted, was with were never violent like eome of the Americans. In one or two of the towns where I was with an Amerioan ccnapany~ or battalion, the Americans raped the French girls every tlow and again. happening among the Britisho wkich nay have kept them a little quiet. steal fruit from orchards, but they didn't steal anything very valuable. Some- tines they would steal souvenir@-souveIrs were wanted by PaOst people. 'he British soldiers I I don't know of anything like that I think the Briti8h were older than the Americans They would-the British soldiers would The discipline was ahinistered in the British battalion largely by the second in command, a8 I remember. 11th Sherwood Foresters. The cawmanding officer was more of a liberal, scholarly type, literary smt in his inclinations, whereas I think it was Colonel J. R. Halford, a big, tall man, a wonderful horremsn, very stern and very strict, and he was the one we associated with disciplinary matters. the one who would ride up and down the line uhen you were on the march and ride down stragglers. It Plight have been a personal thing in the /I 11 I He s * That's about all I can say about it, This compares in some respect Kith the Americanso - Yes, the American8 were not so disciplined. The Americans tend to be still civilians. These were not regular troops in the herican forees, were the National Guard regbents and the National Guard people. Division was made up ef National Guard elements, the New England states. They had regular officers--sore of them, but 80938 were not regular. The 26th Dlrisien was commanded hneral C. R. Edwards who was a great favorite among some people. His mto waa "stout hearts and disciplilLeR'o but they were quite irregular eoldiers in maany ways. 'lhey wandered around and did t tab proper They The 26th i'

Page  160I 160 care of Oheir sanitation. You had to be after then all the ti-. $hey had good fighting eaprit, but not good living esprit, but that io characteristie, I believe, of American youth in most plaaes. They are not disciplined. Don't L you think so3 Ya I don't knou why that ir, except I think you put your finger on it when pu say that they are largely civilian oriented a tradition that the British would have. Yeu know, the 11th Serwood Foresters meant something quite apart frm the men who were there, thout the sense of h 4 Yes. The 26th Division didntt have very high standing in Pershingts Am. For instance, th and tops, The 1st Divisio s a top division. The 32ad Division was also as was the wRalnboww Division that McArthur had made up very much like the 26th cod Marines were better fighters and much better disciplined + + Division, but it had a nuch better reputation at headquartera. by uta that the 26th Mvisim was being penalirsed because of an unfavorable reputation, penalised by being kept in the liner The 26th Division wa8 kept in the line from March until WovQnaber G9l67 - with practically no tine out at Itwaa felt - and with many battles. 1 retmeaber 0136 instance-%his is by hearsay-General MwarcLs was indirectly reprinanded the Commander-in-Chief. As you know, In the Arny you're not spppmroed to put two aubjecta in one letter. You can't file twe subjects in one letter, but %neral "dnrwda 26th Divlrion, hoping that they would get a divisional citation. Q a letter to the headquarters conananding the In the same letter he asked for ten thoustand pairs of 80cks. He got a reply saying that he mustn't put two subject8 in the same letter, and the 26th Division didn't get aw divisienal citation. 3

Page  161161 At about that time they sent up to command the 26th Division a Brigadier General F. E. Bamferd who was a Marine. He was a blustering disciplinarian, and ~ we thought he tried to take it out on the soldiers in the Division. There wm another Marine c-nder in a battle owe next to azg named Colonel H, J. Barse. He waa rather a law unto himself, but a strong disciplinarian that carried his men where he uanted them to go, We were in the Battle of St. Hihiel where we had to mako an $be turn to the east-starting south and turning abut thirty degrees erst-the whole line was supposed to d@ this; C Ohtlr4L9 bh Well, this Marine didn't turn and went right straight through the wheeling 26th Divisiono That1s what Colonel Bearss dido In another case Colonel Bearsa went off with great bravado to the German side and got pinned down in a farm houso, and we had to go and rescue hbn. Curious thing8 were tied up with discipline in a way, and the diseiplinariaw, I thought, were not always well diaciplined thsanselve8. How representative was the court martial. that you attended? That was an interesting thing. This was in the battle southeast of V8rdun when the Meuse Argon- had started up north of Verd en the flank and had to de whak I thought was a very nervemacUng diversion- ary attack. We attacked from the hills bwn into the plain of the Woevre under The 26th DirLaiot3 was levere fire with barrages and everything else with the knowledge that we werenlt mppased to gain anything, but were just supposed to divert the attention of the Qenrans-stay, ff you/could, and get back, if you could* Well, in that region-this is about October, I think, of l!?l8-there were great tunnels in the hills that we were on and from wbich we took off, morning whedwo uere we11 into an attack was found hiding in a tunnel, so I put A sergeant with me one

Page  162162 hint under arrest for dissertion in the face of the enemy. having him put in confinement. We were in the line and were fighting a daily sort of battle, but hs became a sort of a ward of mineo be more or less responsible, and whenever we moved, this man would stick along with mo, with he medical section I had, That continued from that moment until after the armis*. I had no way of bringing his cam to trial and no way of disgis8ing him on my own word, 'he chaplln began to intercede for him and other people, He and I got rather attached to each other in a friendly wayo quite embarrassing and rather ridiculous, I had no way of I had to watch him and \ It waa Finally they did try him, and it was 80 long after the event that they just dismissed him, bat it turqed out that a situationexisted in thie man's cas8 that probably existed in several ether American unit88 and this situation night have conditioned this manti sense of independence sufficient to make him hide himself when the battle was beginning. He ciame frsm a small town in Maine where his father was the chief undertaker, and his fatherwas fairly well-to-do. The cemmnding officer of the campamy in which this xan uas) was employed occasion- ally ly the undertaker who had political power also, so that the officer in the cornpany couldn't control the enlisted manbecause the enlisted man's parents were more powerful than the officzerts peoplgo situation, and I imagine that existed in a good maw of those National Guard outfits uhere the hand reaches out from the local colsmaunity into the military situation protectivelyo This man came from such a That certainly was absent in the British,trasnft __I it? I never saw anything like it in the British. I think also that there was a caste system with the Britisho *he officers are much more remote from the men

Page  163than American officers are. Yes, but that can lend itself to a lot of mischief-you know, it spreads. I mentioned om other interesting item before we turned the machine on3 the nature of water supply in a static situation where you have trenches, dun in positions, prepared positions as you did in Flanders and in Italy, and then the change8 that are deBlanded because the battle becomes fluid, chase and run affair toward the end, particularly fraa perhaps September 1918 on, when there was this steady push. Now, purification of water seem8 like a eiPlple problem, but it isn't* Well, a8 I recall in the trench situation, water came up either at night in 0 water carts close to the line, or what they called petrtl tins, five gallon gasoline tias, containers. They would be brought up strung around the necks of soldiers carrying them. Host of the water,= I recall it in the trench situation, w88 chlorinated somewhere and brought to youo On the move when the fighting is in the open count.), men will drink fram streams and don't pay any attention to purificationo and set it up, or local chlorination--youbry that with the American troops all the the, but you often can't use it. I Occasionally, I suppose, you have a Iqster Bag I don't remember much difficulty with the water supply on the open warfare part because it was a rather short period for use We broke through-the 26th Division, or the 103rd Infantry I wa8 with broke through Belleau Woo and went to the vesle River, but it was rather fighting al he way, the St. Mihiel, or other regions. Itwsn't Just a march, and we had no real open country in + When yoube picked up experience in tsnns of raids, no manta land, the possibility of casualties between fixed emaplacements-what sort of demands did it make on

Page  164your erm, the people you had with you, when you begin to have a more fluid operation? the experience led to any rethlnkina at sane later time on the ldtd and quality of aid that gou had. Of course, you have to play with what YOU have, but I wonder whether all, it varies very mueh on the terrain where you were. Let me go back to the St. Mihiel battle again. That started about two o*clock in the morning with a terrific heavy barrage going mer, the sh# falling on the Germans and close to Anericans in a region that had been fought over since 19l.4, and it was all a me18 of barbed vire, grass, and ab11 holes. something by daylight, could see wounded in the middle of that messl, I really dropped nxy medical supplies, except for a small package of Gennan wire cutter, and I went through that barbed wire on the ground and liberated people who had fallen and got entangled in the wire. those wire cutten, at home and use thm. an open movement for about two miles or moreO and then by evening we were off the hill and down into the plain, and that'r where the lines sat for the rest of When I started out and could BO. b andages, I found a fl I still have They are very strong;. Nw, that was the time0 They wiped out the salient and had lots of counterattacks, but they didn't go very far. ewer nearly to Verdun, but aside from cutting out the salient, it didn't advance very much, nothing like the sweeps that Patton's Army made in World War 11. They went through that region else. Thatms a long battle line way over from Hontfaucon wry Was there any problem in evacuation? Evacuation is, I would sq, easier on the move than it is in the fixed position. so cut up with shelling that you really couldn't to any evacuation until toward The fUed positions we were 'in mre so much bombarded and had been

Page  165day break, or maybe 8ome time in the dark. The terrain was very bad. very hard to move anything. you're in the open, stretcher bearers have firm ground under feet as a rule and carry longer distanced Little ambulances can so come up very close; in fact, when we went through delleau Woods, they herd ambulances in Belleau Village which never would haveben, if you had been fixed in a trench, These were Ford amb lances, little Fsrd vehicles-I think they carried about four meno It wa1s No vehicles could move in there, whereas when R Md you remain at the St. Mihiel secter until the end? S~QU got nicked on the leg by a piece of ahrapnel, spent shrapnel, which healed in a short time with no problem,, Quite early in Flanwrs In fact, I never reported itc, Yes, except ia a letter ham, but you went sll througb this up until about eleven o'clock on that final day when again under boaabarlbnent, I think-I don't remenberg bat somebody diacovered saae casualties, or indicated that them were some out thereo I don't know whether you knew that an armistice was comfng~ Well, mw you've jumped ahead a month. I was just wonderina in personal terns-injuries and the poarsibility of injury 0 5 You ge fren St. Hihiel up to this region southeat of Verdun whiuh is an 4 iadiscrimina$ kind of region. Then we turmd and marched through Verdun, up the eaat bank of the Meuse River about fifteen miles past Fort Veaux and sane of these Verdun battle fields and stopped at a place called Samogneux. Samognux is up over the hills that rise fragl the river. We finished the war %here eaxctly In the place where the French first net the Germsans in 19l-yru "2 W

Page  166166 can see what a fluid war it was) but it wa8 relatively grown over with bushes, and it was hard ground. They had some Ameriean little ternlee-flwhippet tanks", they called them-that tried to casle up through them, and the Germans knocked off all six of them, rk, stopped then right there, edge of the forest was probably thirty feet* You didn't dare stand up, but at night there wa8 an exchange of cigarettes for sfme things that the Gemarm might ham-there was a little fraternizing going one Lately it had not been knocked to pieces too nuch. our line frm the QeFnrans east of Sarogmux in the Then there waa that rather heavy shelling fian twr directions-getting on ROW, toward hiatiee time, on the lbtb of November-we would get shells from behind, coning from the western side and Shells Gaping from the eastern side because there was a curve in the line there. A8 far 88 what happened en the morning of histice day-yes, I krrew there wa8 going to be an armistice about a day ahead. So did everybody elace, but for 8mt9 reason, fer norale, or to impress the Oeratdlns, orders were given tt-at although-they didn't say this in the orders, but 1'11 say it-that although the high carsmand knew that there was going to be an armistice at eleven o'clock, they ordered the battalion units to go over the top at daybreak. early in the morning, a very foggy morning. and little valleya, and you recall that I places and started to go get them, position and finished the war lying on my face and belly being shot at. They started a big bottk in that region The ground la gullies and slopes ew of some wounded in om of those p.. I got very close to a German machine gun Then after it was over) that night we had a Fourth of July celebration. In the first plaoe-I may have it in the diary-a German with a beautif'ul baritone voice started to sing. Suddenly when the guns stopped, the eilence was terrific-eh, aaosing silencef That ntght everybody who could get his hands

Page  167167 on a Verey pistol, a Verey light pistol for barrage signals, started to shoot them off, and there were beautifuk fire works. Big flares would go off, and the barrage signals were kind of a Fourth of July rocket affair that exploded in the air and then dropped a long tail sf different colored burning flares, and it was a great aelebration. How did yon feel about this at ll:lO? It'a very difficult for me to recall how I febf abwt it. I felt elated that the allies had forced the Goman8 to stop fightiq, still alive, but not hilarious about ite lonay as I could be, and I guess I thsught mostly of my awn comfort. to take care ef. We had to find food, or reorgatxiso, or get to ether again because we were pretty -11 scattered, way back, a long way back to a place called Baooilles which-I dont% know. must be thirty, or forty milea. I was glad that I yps I wag as dirty as I could be, ab I had mcu c P Then we gathered lap and marched all tho It All of forty miles. I wlbs still looking to get clean, and I hadn't had a bath since September as far as I remmber. on@ night the sergeant and I went down there. We thought wetd jugp In the river, and when we got out we saw bales of clothes on the banks, unlerclothes, and we put them\n. It was an old, abandoned delousing station, and kese underclothes wem full of louse eggs, and in a few hours we hatched a million li e that just drove us about crazy, I didntt have any ohance to change the% My uniform wad oat at the elb6wsa 83. ends of my uniform were ragged, The inner seams of ny pants were ripped. I had The only bath I got was on the banks of the Meuse when 4 t: mgh I was a captain, I had bare elbow8 and the cuff @

Page  168168 them held together. gether, and when I went back, gat back With the battalion to the rear area, I found myself right in the slid of the Johns Hopkins Hospital Unit at a place called Baaoillesu~~as$~llie" we called it, and pl~r old immaculate hiend, Cy Guthrie was in charge. I wove a little willow twig through then to hold them to- dJ Is that in the book? No, it's note Cy Gutble was in charge. He was a major then, and I had another friend from Hopkias nrnaed Frank Evans who\ms a medical Pian h.m Pittsburgh, and they wouldn't let me come into the officer's quartem I was so filthy. Itws cold and moonlight. atxi Frank Evans then pulled me through the window into the shuwer bath. a little clean* I bought a uniform from Dr. Guthrie. They =de me undress outside the bath section of the barracks, I got Then I was in good shape. The battalionrss reconditioaed too. Whe? The battalion you were witho "his is where they ceived British shoes. Oh yes. Well, they were very uncolafortable* Then from that place we went ,> on south in France to a place called Montigqy--le+,@s where the division head- quarters was. From that point I got up frosl Regimental Surgeon to be Sanitary Inspector of the whole 23rd Mvision. By that the I got prmted to major. I'd been a captain when I entered the Army in 1917, and I had received no pro- motion all that time, although I had job8 that called for major's ranko As a matter of fact, 70u get lost the way we were doingo I don'% think I get any pay when I was with the British-for nmnths, but I had a letter of credit that L

Page  169my kcla George took out, and every time I got near a French bank I would draw out money from it wtth thia letter of credit much to his surprise, I think, and maybe sme inconvenience9 `he 26th Division Sadtary Inspector was a very interesting and enlarging position because you had the power to go all through the division to8ee what was goirg on, to try to see that the billets were clean and sanitary measures were being properly observed. At one the down there, ve were visited by President Woodrow Wilson, General Pershing, and Chief of Staff Tasker Bliss. in some ways and very amusing in others* in the road about daybreako the roadside that the President was cowing dawn from about daybreak until h8 ume, mound llt30, He had dinner, a noon dinner, in khe big dining FOO~ in a Fkench hotel in thia resot towar Xhat `lrn leading to3 1 think, is indicative ef the lack of tact, or a political sense on the part of the Presidento We were all in the dining room, and we had taken a lot of trouble to get this dinner ready for hiRz with the best food we could find, He went through the dinner, and at the end of it we tho164 that the President would get up and say that wo were (get hme soon. There was a long sort of pauae after dinner,, 4 General Bliss got up, walked across the dining room to the =in door, and os Mr. Wt#n went through that door, not having said a word to us1, he, turned around and in a /her high voice said,"Good weew n That visit was very hard To get ready for it they hauled us @ut Itwas tmae cold, wet morning, ad we stood along t: 4 79 The President and That's all that he did, It ms extraordinary that he should do that., It's jwt not understandable in a political figursa It was understandable to me afterwards. He was) I suppw% an acaddc sort

Page  170170 of man who may not have knm how, or may have been too proud to condescend to jolly people al~ag, but all of us were disappointed, except one reporter woman who went qmund after the President had left and collected his spoon and fork- we ined off of me88 kits, and she was getting souvenirs of the utensils that the great had wed, 1 Were you bothered much by reporters during the war? No, I don't recall any except at this big party of hfgh government officials coming with the President* He came off prettxlow tw. Yes, we didnet feel much affection for hirP* This becomes a waitiw pe riod too, bp~ to what ia going to happee uext, There are mtea haae fearing being made part ef the Amy of Occupation, hoping that it would not happen. I have that in my writings? Letters to "Tante Em. Well, we didn't know whether the 26th Division would be in the Army of Occupationo As a matter of fact, they formed ansther rrew anayirthe 3rd Army uas established and organioed very lat-h, early in November -- fl9187, about two weeks before the Arraistice, under General Dickman, They had no training, no experience with civil affairs, or occupation procedures. I think WB knew the 3rd Amy had been put together, and I suppose we were afraid that they would put the 26th Division in the 3rd Army. They did put division in the 3rd Army- Y

Page  1711-71 no new oneo, but the hd, for instance, was put into the 3rd hqy and statiomd in the Ahr Va1l.q. When I was Sanitsry laspector of the 26th Division, some high officer came and called on ne one day when I was making an inspection and intimated that there was a polsition that they would like me to take at sow head- quarters--Itve forgetten, I didntt. Then order8 came for me to go and becam Sanitary Inspector of the Anmy ef Occupation which I did in "anuary of 1919. January. xo I wanted to stay with the 26th Divisio 1 think that'8 the dato-early in r. Jan- th in the d%ary,nOrdered to thgrd Amy on the Rhinr, as Satdtary In- spector of the Amy " but this ie a brand new thing, a brand new setting. know tbat any existing retgulatiom, or manuals related to the kind8 of problem you could get into. You make certain change8 in the org;anf~ation-.parti~~~~ with reference to the axmy apid~ologists, one of which you were allowed, but I don't pu thoujqht that you needed two-one with the statistical branch, and ow assigned to the laboratory in the event an epidemiologist was needed. This is the first time that this comes aut-that is, the use of an epidemio'logist, the need for twe in the kind of organisation yea had with the atat50 occupation troops. It aakes a lot of sense,, I think that e Idea f needing; the twe in additiea to the Sanitary In- i specter is not to be erredited to me 80 muoh a$ to that very wise Colonel who was office there in a fine building in Coblease The Surgeants Office was art head- quarters, and lo and behold, the epideraiologiat they sent; to work Kith the Sanitary Inspector uagl lay seni~r, 80 to speak, frcg J friend Alan Chesney, a much better man than I was. We set up an offlce in a ns Hopkim, aay admired i(.

Page  172big roon-two rooms mybe, next to the Stwgeonts Office, covered the wall with the huge map of the cupied area. We had daily, often hourly reports of what was happenirq~ in the occupied area. We got around a bit ourselves in cars, and ue pinpointed every case of infectious disease that was going on there. had two outbreaka of influenza, and they had a considerable 4ount of typhoid fever among the divisions la the Ahr valley. soldiers too, but the typhoid was mostly -on$ the iviliana. We knew that+ and we knew about scarlet fever and the things happening in the i They /I 4 The influen%a was araong the i I thiab there were about two hundred and fifty thsward men in that Amy of Occupation, oecapying; Q great strip of land from the border of Luxembourg to the south bqk of the Bine and then half of a bridge head extending over across the Rhlne, I had all these statistics and locatioas,and Colenel Grissinger just thought that was very flne, All the visiting brass hats and everybody that came to Y The other half was occupied by the French, Well, Alan Chesney and Coblens he'd bring into this map room of disease and shaw how much he knew about uhatuaa going on in the troops and civilians in the regiono We had a good control over things. There was a Civkl Affairs Branch Headquarters separate from the Army to deal There was a wonderful liaison with the Civil Affairs,, c with the civilian health, and the nan who was in charge of that had been the Health Officer sf the City of Mew York. I forget his me, but I knew himo I stayed there from January until $me day in June, 1919, and during the course of that time I had two personal experiences with Colonel Grissinger. si themu as maewhere long in April, I suppmse. Telegram began to come in froqr Hopld~, one from Dr. Welch saying that I was needed back in Hopkins to One k teach, I don't know whether there is auy of that in the book er not. No, you got this in the mil somewhere aloug the line.

Page  173173 d A That's just my promotion. Well, Colonel Grissinger was a very hoest, straight-forward man, and this telegram came in from Dr. Welch saying that I vas weded it Hoplcins to teach and to please let me out. me in his office, and he said,"hjor, do y~u think you're really needed at Hopkins to teachln Colonel Grissfnger called I said,"H~, sir." He said,"All right. I couldntt tell him that I thought I was needed to teach. Go back to your outfit." Then at the end in June, when I did get released I went in to say goodbye to Colonel Grissinger, and I got the greatest accolade I ever recei~dd. hard work he said,"Goodbye, tjor. You haven't givel ne any trouble." After all thoso months of That's wonderfulo tions, went from more refined in the larger cities down to almost crude in the little villages. This area in terms of its own sanitatioa, exieting inatalla- In the occupatioli area-pso And while a certain percentage of the troops were housed in barracks, a great many of tkw were housed in various Wela of concentration of the populatiorr, i) Yes, in civilian houses, I Pes and with the adbd burden, the tsx that thefrb being there would be on existing installations, What tsort of help did you have--llrary Engineers, and so Y' The Anqy of Occupation had an engineer battali.cn to take care of the water supply, and thatwas under laboratory control. This other laboratory man you '8

Page  174174 nentioned came up there. I forget his me at the moment, Hewas in charge of the laboratory end most of their work was diagnostic work on sane diseases like typhoid and constant supervision of water supply, but in that region the vegee, tables and fresh foods like that were 8 iourcc of great snxllety because the Germna fertilized that region with what we called "honey cartstt. They would pump out the cesspools into these wagons-they looked like great big barrels, and they would drive them out in the fields and would spray the field8 with all this; decomposing excrement, get it all over the cabbages and the low vegetables. The other difficulty in Coblenz and other places was venereal disease, and the policy wa5 still, and it aluap is, under debate as to whether you try to control heuses of prostitution and by exanination say that certain nomen are not infected, or whether YOU try to prohibit it altogether. authorities authorized certain houses to be accessible to the men, and you'd see lines, hundreds of men standing outside the doors of these houses of prosti- tution waiting to get in. In Coblene the They had a fair amount of venereal. disease, but not too RI\1Che What did you do for influensa? You can't do anything for influenza. Influenza-the 1918 epidemic of in- fluenza was very much worse in the United Statea and in the casp of the recruits Over here than it was in the more aeasoned troops in Franceo waves of influenza, one in March and one in the winter extending over to 1919@ What you tried to do was separate tb man, and to sleeping quarters you would try to get as much air in the place as possible+ There was no drug that you could useo the statistics of the, influenza in that region, and it was not very greato There were two 'here was no vaccination at that time, but flvemcently looked over *I

Page  175?+le, except-you know, it was spotted on the horizon. Given the experience of 1918, and its possibilities. Oh yesa ether it uas the more settled life, the more frequent baths, and bathing, in- cidentlaily, was set up too, again I suspect with the Anay Engineer8 and their Yes, also these troops were getting seasoned by now. They were stronger and more resistent than the recruitso There were a ntunber of telsgrams--you mentioned telegrams. There was a telegram- I guess thia is in one of the letters-that indicated General Ireland through General Gorgas aelting your release as soon as possible, and tQ that Colonel Griesinger reglied not available. Anether telegram came back to him asking when you would be available, and it was here that it was indicated that you weru urgently needed I Johns HopMns. Yourre in tb Army 0f Occupation, the war is behiad you, geu're probably at sixes and seve~. You have a job to do to b 8ur6, and it ha8 its interest. you're going to work anyway at its but-you want to piek up older things. desire to get ham, I guess this is synp tomatic of all troops, a Yes, I wanted to get hame, although Coblenz is a delightful city. We went ;0 to the opera almost every night. We had the officer's clubo There's some marvelous poetry in these records by "Speedy" Swift, Oh yes, thatts Dr. Swift of the Rockefeller Institute who is a great man on rheumatic fever. I lived in a billet that wtw a palace on the top floor of 3

Page  176the house of one of the merebera of the fim of Kuhn, Loeb and Seligman, big bankers-a very plush life. Afar cry from dugout w. I Yes, Chat was the bank president. We were close to the bank, so e had I. berican soldiers guarding the placeo the family didnrt associate with uio They were polite to us in there, but The job, in effect, had-been done. Peso There alww was a great deal of boredow In the war Just as much as 1 don't knew of any situation where youtrs 90 bored day after at any time,, dayllcrPren in the lineo It's a deadening think3xcept when you get moving, rand there's sound. That 8m.ehow excited adrenalin, and you can live through its or at least - yau can ~DVQ, but there are days and days of beredas. back to Hopkins--you df.sse indication frau t There is some indication sf going They told me when I left that they would hold it open, and I had n@ anxiety about it at bill. I tocplc it for granted, This was reaffirmed, time perhaps, though I don't know, I dontt think yo11 planned on being gone for such a 10% I don'f remember that they ever calculated 011 how le? I*d be* fa any event, pur return from war to H~pldns in term of the correspondence is like the silence of Hamember lltheertain doubts about enthusias'b, feeling 4 -

Page  177177 0 8traaRe and distant-in a seaere, $he 1aborat.m itself wasn't the sane laboratory. Face had changed and moaed on. pretty close to where you lived when you star ehing of those dayslthose initial dam, tryid to find your way back? s v 4 YOU moved into 712 St. Paul Street which woe in Hoplcins. De E remeaber Yes, I ramernbr that it was a rather slow process getting out of the Arnpro I landed-I forget where IWBLB. Newport New? Yes, Newport New8, Virginia. Yes, and then I herd to go te Fort Dix to get didsarod from the Amy which is a leng way from Newport Bews, and that took some timee rush to get out* and nobody beem to care very much about anybody elsee Then I went back to Balthors. I didn't have tewait, as I recall it, for anybody to get out because I don't believe that anybody was in my place in the laboratory at that monent. I be- lieve I had been promoted during the bast part--what--June, 1919, while I was still mer there, to what they called their position of associate which is juat under associate profe8mre The laboratory that I went into, I think$ y~8 in the Hunterian Building across the street frola pathology where I had been before- no, it wasn't. Was it? Everybody is in a It seesaed very natural ts get back to work gradually, This I don't knew. D No, noe It was back in the pathology building, .and then Dr, Lloyd Felton and I started to do work there, generating hydrogen set that building on fire. that happened, and then we moved acrose the itreetr We built a hydrogen-ion generator, and that I think it waa in 1919 that

Page  178178 Initially this period-well, ~rou lived with a Dr, David Ne Davier for a while, I Yes, I know him still* He was a urologist. He s still living. a He was waiting for a house to be buik o I believe, he was going to live with his sister, but he joined you at 712 St. Paul Str Then you met a Dr, P. A. Schuh who back in the Army of Occupation was very muoh interested in refuse and left certain instructions to collect it, and YOU net infrequentxgave instructions to burn ito coin3 to move into a house where, I I don't remember that* But he was at the Hopklns apparently. Then you moved into the Baltimore Club- - yon seemed to have been at odd's e - The Baltimere Club wa8 a very mice place to be ino I think I must have stayed in the Baltiarore Club for a year or too I had 8 room there, Hon did you feel about the laboratory? Can you pica things? Do you have te start fresh? There's evidence in the letters that you encountered difficulties making a pure culture again, I don't remenbere Well, gou had in effect gom at right anglss uith laborat= work, straight bench work, and had gotten into administratiso, sanitation* All I recall is that when I got back there, we just went back to work very busilyo We were studying cultures of all kinds and had a collection of in- fluenza bacilli to work on, I'm a little uaoertaia ROW. Did Davison COHO in at thia point?

Page  179179 Yes, sir. Wilburt Co Davison, I wa8 in the flfth floor again, and he came up om day and aaked if he could work In the laboratory. He'd been a great friend of Dr. Osler in Oxford, became a good pediatrician in the Harriet Lane Hone, and then he became the Dean of Duke University Medical School and was Dean there for twenty yearr or more. He worked with me for a while. Felton worked with me. Dr. Thomas Rivers camo I want to ge into that next tiaeucFelton aad Rivers, but MacCallm was the head. - Dr. HacCallwr was the Professor of Pathollegy, At Hopkins they had never given bacteriolofg independent status in spite of the fact that Dr, Welah was one of the greatest bacterislegists in the country. Heuaa also Prefeaaor of Pathology, mad I think it was hi8 feeling that bacteri- ology and pathology uere se closely bound together intalleotually and by methedar adfntemst. that he preferred not ta separate them. Dr. HacCallun! was head of the combined bacteriology and pathology-pathology prsdminated. His wasn't an unfamiliar face, but it wasn't a familiar face. e No, I didn't know him until-well, I got to know him during the course of that yearo

Page  180180 -well, this nay be related to the whole businem of coming out of the getting back ts civilian thinfls, but your correspendence during this the indicates that there is B certain quality about NacCalltrm that makes you feel like an outsider in your own laboratory. was so. It's just possible that in 1919, this - I think Dr. MacCallum would have done that even if there hadn't been any vu0 Dr. HacCallm was a rather sharp, critical man who was deeply interested in original ideas of his om. book in pathology in the c untry, still a classic in its way. he was very wuch interested n bacteriology. that he decided that heboald take a lecture I was going to give en typhoid bacilluso up there-I remember very well, and he said,Vyphoid bacillaa is a gram-negative, motile organism that ferments glucere without producing gas", and then he suddetily said,Well, all that's perfectly dull4 Let'a talk about something else. He was a top ranking pathQlOgist, wrote the best I don't think i 1 I rmember in this wme building I was awfully glad te have him meet my class and talk, but he got Well, you'll feel a little strange with a man who will treat pur subject that way. Dr. MacGiLlum had traveled, and in India he had gotten interested in leprosy, I think he got 8cme flayed skin of cadavers that he brought back that were peculiar. He was a brilliant person, snrt the easiest person to work with. No. Felton was a high strung, enthusiastic man of strong opinion, very 0

Page  181181 !I' II , work* Very good work-yei. receive; one is(. Richard1 Strongts staff at Geneva, the International League af Red Cross Soiietisa. Do you remember that? During this period there is mention of two offers you (1 d, 4 That's strange because it figures ;n the corre~pondence. He wanted ne to corn on his staff? Then there was a bi and and oil colnpaay that required someone in Central Africa which you talked about not a little in the correspondence. I Curiously enough 1 was not imterested enough to remember th5 You aay In the letter that you're pulled in that direction partly because of the difficulties in the laboratory, but that you're going to stay, 80 opening year, the unsettled nature of 1919, into 1920, was apparently a difficult transition

Page  182182 year all the wav around-people coning back either overworked because they had remained at Hopkins and hadn't been part of the war, er overworked because they had been in the war and were returning to RopMns, and all the elaeh of tempera- ment that you get out of a collectivity that is trying te find its way into a momentum againo I think thatta probably a fair suranary of what transpired, and It is reflected in differing; ways in the derrespondence. Let's pick up the BenceJoma protein studies next time-that brings in He B, Cress, Do Wo Wilson, Tom RiVers, and I wondered, in your thinking about it, whether you go back and pick up any of the items and ideas that you had with Zinseer to pursue. Rivers has influenza, and there were some experbents with cats-just where you got the supply.. .. We had cats up in the animal. room on the top floer. Thatwas over at the Hun$rian Laboratory. We moved out of the other building which had burned, Yes, there's the whole business of the fire ia that laboratory. t4 r\ feu want that+nm? I Q! Wfve gone just about an hem, YOU were tired when YOU starMd. 1" Well, you won't b here tomorrowo I wontt b here until Monday* well, ueW put it off until Monday*

Page  183183 Metrday, April 25, 1966 Ai-!%, N. L, Me E; The first thing L1d like you to tell me something about today is this little book that YOU brought in with you this morning on the Eclat Club, a kind of continuation of the camaraderie, the spirit that some medical people had as a consequence of their war experience. The little book I brought ysu this morning was one of the original copies / of the history of the Eclat nub, meaning4 French word for shell burst-eclat - - dtobw was the burst of a shell. Eulat here doesn't mean any high society, or artificiality. to continue after they got tame their personal. relationship and really, rcriowly, to do samething about keeping alive the new knowledge they'd gained from advance6 in surgery and the treatnent sf wounds that they had been able to nake during the waro which had rapidly become cemented into lasting and unbreakable friendships, so in 1919, I blieva, they had an organiaation meeting, and aa they say in their preface to this book, this was perhapa the only society of its kind in America, that it stands for something choicer and finer than any other group, or organi- zation of medical men in the country. club must be comradeship,"The rare type ef fellowship that was bora abroad and isr living always at the home and hearts of the members" of this club. Well, that is said by man who had been through very tough experiences, and it is not just a soft sentbental touche The club was formed in FYanca by a group of surgeons uho wanted 11 'heywanted to keep up their personal relationship *'hey add also that the key note of the My impressionwas that they had elected within the first few yeam of their formation forty ene dates uhich have gone out of ny head, but most of them-as I remember it-were You ceunted the name8 in this book and have gotten the Ip

Page  184184 surgeons, except four, aad those four were what we call medical men-I. Hans Zinsser, Dr, Ruasel Wilder from the Meryo Clinic, and an extraordinarily fine man nsmed Dr. Nauri 8 Pincoffs, the profeaser of hdicine at the University of Maryland, and myself. ' ii The club had several meetings a year-as 1 recall it, usually two, but aa you say, sometimes three, and those meetings were divided into two parts. The morning sessien can the day of the meeting wp8 usually 8 clinic in a hospital followed by discussion and talks, net set speeches, but people really telling abeut their experiences and discussing ca8e8, conditions and ideas 0f medical education and training. In addition they discussed the possibilities chiefly among surgeons for high appointments in mdieal schools. port in the politics of the appointment of professers, but these men who were members of this club were in high positions in their schocle and could influence the selections of deans and particularly professors of surgery* I think for a number of years they were probably the most influential body in the ceuntry in exerting a disinterested influence on getting the best men available for these 'hey didn't take any positiow . The second phase of the nieeting was a 3amberee sort of thing done in high style. Limousines would pick us up at the hospitals, or medical schools and take us cpff to stme place for un afternoon and evening meeting. One that I remember particularly was going from Albmy to the Battlefield of Saratoga, psssing on the way the house where General Grant had died of cancer of the throato We went thoreughly over the Battlefield of Saratoga where Johnny Burgoyne was playing hi8 part as "Gentleman Jo@nnyff, where he got really badly licked by the new sort of Amy that Washington had at that the. I think that the battle was in the fall of 1777. I have forgotten the date exactly, but anyhow, it was probably the crucial battle sf the revelution because 1s that right? I don't know.

Page  185there would not have been muoh for Washington to da. blsa Wsshingtoats Army at 0 that time was down to 7,M or 8,000 men. The werst thing had been be small pax 4 in Continental Troops ita the ly part of 1777, so inportant that when Washington was at Morristown he decided to have the whole Army innoculated. pax hadn't come in soo ILB you Jennerian vaccination by innomla tisn with knw, they had a way of immunizing activelyo It was a very interesting thing te have been done om a mass scale-the fi d introduction of immunization on a us scale into the United States Amy, 9 % After that time, Washington had practically a sarsll pax free Army, and he had mall pox free soldiers when he ieught Burgaync. I ham later learned that a good many serious historians df thme times eay that the doctors won the revolution. 1 can't mice any such claim a8 that in the faee of the character of Geergc Washingten, but they had an enormot effect on the protection af the trsope Well, after rieiting the battlefield and learning something about the history of the times, we went en from there to the race track at Saratega and spent an evening in the gaming rooms) a very good time. A very good dinner usually ended the meetingo Another time I recull waa when the New York World's Fair was Just beginning-. not the last one, of course$ but the @ne before that-when Grover- Whelaa met ua and was our guideo It was anexample of how these men could get anything they seemed to indicate they would want, and the afternoon of that seeting was spent at Theodora Reoseveltte old house at.... Cold Spring Harbor?

Page  187186 It's near Cold Spring Harber, but it has a name* The house-The Roosevelt house is on the hill up therm Fagamore HiIl-7, and hers buried there, but one of the member8 Q he Eclat Club was Dr. Richard Derby who by marriage was re- lated to Theodore Rbosevelt. We had a good talk at that time about affairs of the government, visited the grave and then aftwwardt3 spent time in a very plush club there at the place at Oyster Bay. + Thatts the kind o hing that went on until three pars ago, The i club decided that after it had elected its forty some members, it wouldn't elect any =re, and 88 the years went by, they would generally spend mre time counting the ones that had Fsed on than looking for anything new, It got rather dismal, and 80 a feu years ago they deeided not to hold any more meetings. their silver cup to the Saithsonian Institution, and bey turned over the records ef the club to their most re e ade and defective member, myself, and I am now surviving a8 the Secretary of the Eclat Club, They gave i. sja In personal term, coming back from the war, did you have aw thoughts about \h)HiPt+ the experience at all? Let me dilute what Ilve just saide lhis is a periodnl society somehow sanctioned patteddd of behavier that weuld appear to be, or seemed to be, illogical ita a stable society-the destructiono Flanders Field, $1 I- for example, is a staggering experience. But in personal terns, looking back on it, what do you carry may with you on the nature of warfare? I carried away a very distinct dichotomy, or schieophrenia, or whatever yea want tc call being able to live Kith two ideas about the sapme v thing. Warfare and destr'ction strictly related to military effort seemed to me to be a very natural sort of a thing. U 4 I knew you couldn't get on without it, and I know that what going to say is not peculiar to Wself, but where= you could see

Page  187187 soldiers blown up, churches knocked down$ the productive fields all plowed to pieces by shell8,water supplies ruined, roads cut to pieces, comunications broken-dl the things that would be catastrophes in civil life-you could see all that without regarding them as catastrophes because they seemed-unless you got licked-a part of the expected events; whereas anything that touched a civilian close to you was very distressing. seen soldiers go almost to pieces because a girl, Q street by falling debris, or something like that. civilian damage before I went to the war, and it was no different afterwardso I on*t think 1 more than any ethers got any special callous, hardened feeling about the destructiveness of war for as long 98 it seemed to be connected with, That happened frequently, I have child was hurt in the Th$t's the way I felt about + P as I say, military effort, but when it touched on ordinary civilians it was very painful. Certainly I can't recall anything after I got back in the United Statws that I did, or any of my friend8 did, because they had been brutalised by war. Is there such in the letters? In-the letters while the war itself is in process, there is sudden, enormous expenditure of energy in its service, expected, anticfpated, unquestioned. The letters are filled with comments OD the really heroic attitude of men who have to withstand fantastic ordeals and do it without complaining--that's a tremendous - lesson to learn, if you've never had that experience. - -t DO it without cmplaining-it's expected, and you expect it of yaurself. I But the end result is to leave that scene the moment it B overo The energy that is put forth because of the requirements imposad upon a group of men, when that r.. - I requirement is no longer imposed.. . .

Page  188188 ~ I got back to work with a great deal of 8-8 and comfort because they had The energy fs turned to getting back home. Right and imaediate1;k. Yes. last time, the scene had changed, and you were going Dack to work and I think almost for the first time with sowe continuity, in the Laboratory of Bacteriology in the Department of pathology at IIopkins. Some old faces that had been imtru- tablishing this had disappeared fra the scene-l'iilton C. Win$W.ta ad associations for a period ofaearrp had I Dr. Welch with whom you ha is one. assumed the burden of the School iew and Public Health and was removed from the scene. He was organizing at that the School of Hygiem and Public Healtho Yes,but iEofar as the Deprtnent of Pathelogy was concerned th rson 03 had to decal with directly was Dr. MacCallim with whom you had had some corre- spondence and I suspect some small association. - dontt how, hsrw dchyou feel about it? What was available to you? What did you find? - Getting back to work was-I I - saved job for rm, and I had nothing te worry about. Actually I had been promoted in June of 1919, I think =de an associate. Pathology because bacteriology WBS inoluded iu the Department of Pathology. hard no separate budget that I recall and no separate status. there were two kinds of rea80ns6 one was a philosophical reason, and the ether I was made an Associate in It 11 *he reasons-well,

Page  189189 one was the will of the person in charge. Dr. Welch always tho ght that bacteriology and pathology should be together with pathology dominant, and DP, Winternita at that time, and George He Whipple befere him, had the same idea. They didn't make any effort to change its and Dr, MacCallun, I think had a stronger conviction than any of the thers that the two should not be separated, 80 it didn't bother me any, I had cr place to work in on the fifth floor again in the old Departnent af Pathology./ I was able to get new apparatuso 1 6-7 P lhey gave me everything I needed. We were able to start SOIPL) new things. At that time hnerfield Clark over in the Department 09 Agriculture in Washiagton-William Mansfield Clark had written very important papers en the biological effect pf hydrogen-ion concentration, and that was an eye opener, That's what they call a "parameter of reactions" that determines whatrs going to happen in so many of these chemical reactions, as well as reactions of living things like bacteria. So Dr. Lloyd Feltoa and I built a hydrogen generator which had grave consequences for the future of bacteriology at Johns Hopkins becawe one Right it exploded and burned down the old pathology building. I think that wapl probably January1920, or spmemhere around that the. _Quit_e_ earlyo A? 147 I hadnrt been back very long, I got back frm the war In JUlg,cend of 4 June, and I think I got to Hopkins about a month later, semewhera in there. As far as what you said a while age, that my work before this time had been episedic lard after q return it seamed to settle down with nore constancy, it did a8 far as the general field uemt-=bacteriology and immunology fremthen on were my Baain interests and concern, but it was extremely episodic work within the field, picking around one place, or another that seemed to be interesting

Page  190and being guided by theory only for short distances, I never was good enough, Q ntelligent enough, te+lmrebp aqV particular theory that guided my experi- mental work. Dr. Zia88er. the next minute on rickettsial disecraes, and then he'll read another article and start on .k It was always very secondary. You netice his gapers-he s one min te on physical chemistry and I can say the came thing about - s I ot of people work that way# The cbprrtment--the bacteriology laberatory had functions to fulfill within the total context of the hespital and the scho01~ selection-you get some interesting material from seurces you didn't antici- SI, - pate sometimes, Yea, bacteriology had a heavy obligation of teaching. The first class I herd to teach was ninety students, and that's more than I ever had thereaftera and it came at a the when I knew far less than I did later on, but ninety students to be taught in bacteriology is an enormous load of cookery. Yplu have to make-we had to make all the media in which we greu the organisms, make all the solutions that ne used, make up stains and do hundreds of things in those dap that yo9 don't nowadays when you can buy the stuff. hard work. Than all of that wa~ Let me go back to this fireo What we went through is characteristic of the poverty of the Johns Hopkias and the willingness of the people OR the staff t o any grade of manual laber to keep it going. After the fire wars put out, we had to ve across the street into a pertien of the original administrative building of the aedical school in which there was an auditorium and the Dean's Office. On another floor above 4 .id I

Page  191191 1 He must have just died, was the Department 0f Physiology, and on the top floor was the Department ef Biochdstry under Walter Jpnes. We carried-I remember how we took the residue of' the unburned laboratory equipent out of the old building on hmment Street and acrosa to the new. down the stairway frem one floor to the other) one landing to another, and then carry it across the stre, Thela we started to put together a bacteriology laboratory in the auditorium. be fixed up in a hurry with plumbing, little sinks with gm lines. trivial, but it did affect n~y relations to the studenter. back io a dirty labwatery gown underneath one ef those benches with a stillson wrench screwing up a gas line connection when I felt somebody kick me gently more or less in the ribs. raid to me, if I remerabcr,wkmat kid of a guy i8 this fellow Jonc@? What do you have to de to get in this department good specimens and god ndir, good stains?" The elevators were out, so we had to really threu it Some old benches were brought in, and they had to This seems I was lying on my tudent well drossed was standing over me, and he pi. In other words, he took me for a janitor, er a8 we called them at Hopkins a 'diener", and he was ready to give me a tip so that he could get a pick of culture media and things. That indicated to me that the academic position carried no recognisable aura. Did YOU identify yourself? I didn't identify nyself until the next day when I appeared to give the intrsductory lecture. I member kidding him about it, but it was very difficult to try to d. aw work in the midst of a disorganfaed pl like that, but euribuerly enough, it

Page  192192 didn't stop, We had our laberatory on the third flo0r of a building called the Hunterian Building. Street about a block and acress the street frew where we had been burned out+ On the third floor, I think it was, above the Hunterian Laboratory for Ippbryology where some very neted people, Warren Lewis and others, were working, we aet up in the roaa up there, and I had some very interesang associate8 at that timeo fastours as the greatest authority on viruses in the United States later on. Howard Cross was an assistant, and we had a media kitchen and about four room for our laboratory up themr It was a relatively new brick building down OB Felton wa8 there, and then Dr. Thomas Rivers joined uu5 whe became River8 wa6 the maat noted Qne of the lot, He wa8 a graduate of Johns Hopkiras, was in a class originally ahead of me, but graduated in the class after I did because he had develbped what they thought was pregressive nuscular atrophy, and he wecnt down to Pa- taking a year off when people thought he wouldn't survive. He lost most of the mausclmra in his hands and in between the bone8 of his foreana, but he was alert, mentally very able, and he had had an opportunity during the war to be on a coanrnlssion known as the Pneumonia Cezmissisn that uant through all the recruitment centers and camps studying influenmh. several hundred strain8 of influenza bacilli, what was called Heiffer's bacillus at that tine and what was thought to be the cause of influema, This was years beflsre the virus of influensa was discevered, and he also had good histories of the condition8 of patient8 frm which the strains had come, and wo were able--mestly Tom Rivers-to develop much new infarslation about the in- fluenza bacillus in a good many stUdie6. v He colleeted h I learned a great deal frosn him about bacteriology, He knew much more than I did, a very opinionated, high strung man of extraordinary independence who would just I also learned something about personal dealings betweeti men. Rivers waa

Page  193193 not do anything, if anybody told him to do it. it actively. He just couldn't take a suggestion. He got into B state with hi8 work where he was not making any progress. where in 1920. called department, or section, and I outlined someexperiments I thought he aight do to help to solve his questiens, but hs didntt pay any attention to that. Finally he disappeared out of the laboratory. I knew where he waD0 He was in the Green Spring Valley, but I didn't communicate with him, hi8 privacy, but he came back of his OWB accord in March, and h am up to ne and said,"I was sitting by the fire last night and I had some of th est damn ideas I ever had in my liferla a,nd he told me shoat verbatim what I had told him the month beforep have learned hmw to deal with them as a Dean and in other positions-who will not act on anything until it ~0858s into his consciousness as something of his owns As long as it was smebody elsets Guggestion, he wouldn't pay any attention to it, and after this-it did solve some of his problems, and he went on. I don t mean he would combat This was along about February, some I discussed this problem with him because Iwss head of the SO- I respected .@ $F 1 HeRs the kind of man-and I*ve met 8 good many and I It was also at that time that I had a further influence on River's life. I was chairman ef the program comnlittee of the Society of Americarr Bacteriologists --this is getting on, I think, to l9224nd we decided that it was time to have a symposium viruses had been known. in 1898, on the tobecce flissaic, and then foot and mouth disease had been found by LIJffler to be due to a virus, but little was known, meeting of the Society of American Bacteriologists the program cdttee arranged for a Mg symposium and the nain speaker was Thmas kl. Rivers. wrote me and told me afterward8 that all the rest of his life his interestuas viruaes, filterable viruses. Up to that time these filterable They had actually been known since BeijerincWs work At the Philadelphia Tern

Page  194194 in viruses. h nor and job of being the main speaker en the subject made hb go rather deeply into it* That syraposium was the turning point, I suppose giving him the i His ccsrespondence is very enlightening on that talk, Is that so? He has soare - things that he wants te say abouhhe field of a general nature, didn't want to get trapped in specificso Hewanted to fence in a field, or fence in an areae He I He did-yes, it was wonderfulo I adraised him 90 much for doing a thing like that. I never could have done it myselfo Haw painstaking and fussy was he at the bench? H+s very aceurste-always, the reat ef his lifes I would call it pains- taking, but not fussy, In bacteriology one Qf the great problems was to avoid contaminatisn of your mciterial with ~rgalifs~~~. You canaee how important that is now when they're worrying about putting bacteria on the moon, or Mars, same thing was just as serious for u8 in those dqab If you get a contaminated culture, you don't know which ef the things In it are doing what you think one ef tem might be doing. Handling viruses is even more difficult than bacteria because you can't see anything, Until recently with ti sue cultures you don't know, except by animal passage ata a rub, what you're dealing with. tissue culture you can tell whether you have a contamination. The h 4 K Now with Even with a31 the care that Tom Rivers and other virologists exercised, they found out later that without their knowing it they were dsaling with mixtures of viruseso

Page  195That's one of the studies that you had with D. Wright Wilsm on the Beneedones 1'1 proteins. PSpecif ic immunol/@~al reactions of Bence-Jones Proteins" IC 18 Proceedings, Society for Expsrimental Biglogy and Medicine 220-222 (1921u. That's not a viruao That's a chsdcalo But the question was dealing with mixtureso Oh yes. Well, that--I want to refresh my memory about something in there. Do yon want me to turn this machine off? You might because I want to look in one of these books+ Well, the aence-Jones proteins are peculiar proteins that are in urine and in bloodo That's almost contrary to what other proteins do which flocculate when they're heated and stay in solution when they're down to room temperature, or body temperature. important in certain diseases of people. Well, I war always interested, eveta fram the work with Dr, Zillgscr, in the fractions of antigenic substances, and I had in BaltiRlere access t several specimens of Bence-Jones protein. had been isolated from the urine of a peculiar disease called rnultiple myeloma and sane had been found in ether conditionso a crystaline BenceJones protein, so I collected these and used all the methods I could think about to see whether they were the same thing, or whether there were differences amng them.) They are soluble in warm conditions and precipitate out in cold. That characteristic later, after my the, is foimd to be extremely Some i I think Dr. Edwin Oo Jardan had I did this by immunological means because the

Page  196immunological tests were far more sensitive than any chemical tests at that time. helped ma on the chemical side of it. We aid the immunolrpgical Work in my laboratory in the Huntmian. I had Do Wright Wilson, who was a biochemist with dater Jones, and he Most of that work was specific precipitin reactions with absorbed serum and very interesting imnunologieal reactions with the uterine horn sf 8 guinea pig that had been made anaphlyactic hypersensitive severalweb ahead with a small amount of protein. When you suspend one of the snooth muscle portions of the uterus @f a aensitised guinea pig in salt solution and put in a very little amount of the protein, it causes a violent contraction. PQU saw those graphs in there,, Yes. - You can do t.at) and f you have the guinea pig sensitize4 to two Bence- Jomr proteins, you can get a reaction fran the second one after the reaction ef the first one has been exhausted, and so on, so we published these papers on Bence-Jones protein much to the confusion of the world, so to speak, because it has allowed me to separate my friend and emphasize ray hyphen. When BaynecJones writes a scientific paper on Dencedems, then it gets all mnixed up4 known sitwe then when people call me Bence-Jones that they have a scientific, probably inmunological, or biochemical background, but there was B great artist and painter named Surnedenes and when people call me Burnt-Jones I immediately try to fish out from my pasb inadequate education the cultnrdl aspects of the huraanities ef Burne-Joaer . The impression I get from these studies is that it was an effort to fix more carefully the nature of that with which you are dealing.

Page  197197 The general philosophical point of view is very cemm to bacteriology because almost the whole advancement of tho science depends on discrimination between nIicroorganism8 that look alike-I mean the fennenhticpn reactiors, the biochemical effects of than. I crarricd this a little further With soau paper8 about the 8amo time on the ompositisn mf the nucleic add ef the colon bacillus, POn the Preaence of Nucleic Acid in "acteriam 33 Jarhns Hopkins Hsspital Bulletin 151 (April,19221Te component and one of the nucleotides of plant nuoleit acid were different from At that time it wai believed that the pentose those camponamts in anirasl nucleic acid,, and I uanted to see whether the colon bacillus fw~ animal or plant. Most bacteria had been called plants,, It turned out that they are a little of both, but thatwats the time when the marvelous developments bf nucleic acid chemistry had not really begun. on ucleic acid in this country, Walter Jones and Pheebw A. T. Levene at the Reckefeller Institute, had a very definite sohematlc representattien of the molecule of nucleic acid, and it got so fixed in egm that it really stopped The great experts N 4 ii lice la the subject until Avery and ether people began to find out about DNA, One feature of the papers on yenceJones prbtein wa8 aone caarvrtunicartian fr@m Ludvig; Hektoen who was at work on the same proble~g~ Well, Drs Ludvig Hektoen was almost cmparablt to Dro Welch ia pathology. He was the head of pathologlr eut at the Univerisity of Chicago and the head of the Journal of Infectious Mseasesd, I think, He helped in the Archives ef Pathology and had an institute, The McComick Instituter Dro Hektoen was a very wise and able man that I knew until his death, Do you want to go on with Dr. Hektoen?

Page  198The only thing that I have for him in this period is the Socioty of Bac teri ologi s tsr Yeso he waa president, but 1% thinking about personal relations w I)rg Hektoen which rather clouded the relationship in the latter yeam of Na life with me-my, from 1932 on, School of Medicine to go to Yale via the National Resdarch time the Associate Prefesser of Bacteriology when I was there, was a man named Konrcad Birkhaug. Yeugve probably run across him ila these paperso Konrad Birkhaug was a Norwegian and 80 was Dr. Hek-toen which may have had something to do with the event, bet anyhow, when I left, Dra Birkhaug thought that he would succeed ne, but there was much opposition to hirm for various reasens in the faculty. He didn*t get the appointment, and he rather held me responsible for the failure of his tappeintment to such a degree that it broke up our relation- shipe letterso Dro In 1932, I left the University ef Rocheeter uncil, and at that iF I have never had any connecticpn with him since then except one or twe Hektoen at that time was coucerned in the Unier of University Pro- fessors, at group of profersers, an organization thst is very jealous of tenure. Birkhaug was an A8SoCiate Professor, and there wasntt any job ahead ef him when he wasn't appointed at Rochester, 80 Dro Hektoen took a hand trying to bring pressure OD the faaculty at Rochester and me too, that Birkhaug be appointed, That was upsetting, bu qn Dr. Hektoen and I knew each other at the National Re86arCh Council and at scientific meetings, and to my astonishment about 19U, he invited me to give the Hektoen lecture in Chicago in early 1942, Well, the war was getting hot about that time?. I was slow in getting my manuscript done, and Iwas about to go eff to the war, disturbing factors which botierad Ds, Hektoen, so that we were never quite the same again, which I regretted very .pi"

Page  199199 much. I want to cme back to that whole problem after wset to Rocheetor because itts an interesting one in terms of mnnagement--it really is. -- a--- -0II)- what? The problem of the associate profssscr, but in this period-well, kerets a letter from 'eonard Colebrook, England inmy to a request that you made of him on the bacteriology ef actinonlycees. I published a paper on that, /-"'Club - Formation of Actinomyces Hominis in Glucose Broth with a Bote on E, actinarnycet~-Conitans" 10 Journal of 569-576 (December9192S)7, I Yes, and also a letter to Colonel Siler on the same problemo I thought that th class work, an exampleo Ne actinomyces in the lesion of the jaw of horses has the most beautiful fan-like clubs, a little sprig ofbhe growth ends ia a yellowish bulbous, aLarescopic cluster mf clubs-they call it, and I just got interested to Bee whether the club would grow, or the stem would grew. I fixed up 8me little oulture dishes, little culture cells, and I watched them for days-very slow growth, but the clubs didntt grow at all. As I remember, the little filament at the stem grew sw, I think I have a picture of it here, but I didntt produce any disease with this specimen of actinomyces, but we always got them to show the class because they are very beautiful thingsa There was an unanticipated event in the cat colony which -- led to an interesting paper,rwRespiratory - Infection and Septicemia of Cats due to the Hemolytic

Page  200200 Streptococcusn 31 J enrnal of Infectious Diseases 34 (December,1922~,, They developed hemolytic septicemia probably transmitted through the respiratory trac!, but I think that was an episodic descriptim of something that happened. Md we go deeply into that? Te study twentydive-they died within four days. fifty that were also studied at t There was another colony of on which yeu and Tom +%vers wrote a paper, taking swabs f rm their throats ,PInfluenza-like - Bacilli Isolated from Cats" 37 Journal of Experimental %cine 131-138 (February,1923)7, - We aught to get the credit for taking the maba frm the throats of the cats-it was pretty tough going, You can get chewed up, I Yea, but this was something that baened which lent it8el.f' to a study '_, Prould ham theught in tenas 0f the publication that the Societ - y+e Preu ventioa sf Cruelty to Animals night have been en yew back. No, but the fact that you had twenty-five ef them in a warm room-pi knowo A Well# the epidemic got started, 0r the epizootic, as they call them among animals. They are enormous+ Great flocks of chickens die all of a sudden of leukemia and fowl pox. In the early days why they had Texas "ever in the cattle, thousands af cattle died, and in foot and mouth disease, the only way they could control that disease in this country was to kill all the cattle and bury them. people are mostly concerned with dQgs and surgery, experinents that require some sort of an operation on the animal, or dismal., solitary confinements, Qr un- 4 1 That'e still the chief nay of handling that. The antivivisection

Page  201201 sanitary cages, neglect, but I don't recall that the antivivisectionists ever made agg abjection to the study of naturally occurring infectism in great groups of animals. This must have been a blow since animal rssourees were hard to cme bxe Oh ycs. We didntt have much meney for thato Is there any nore cement about Wiisoa and the need for biochemistry-that_is, in your thinking about bacteria, the need for a broader team almost-I wontt say "team", but another eye and competence? Oh yes, Bacteriology and biochemistry go' hand in halrd just the way bio- t chemistry and physiology gc along with the study of' aw living organisms, That's a basic thing. Bacteriology in a\ sense is a living biochemistry in which you can manipulate the living, so to speak4 platinum loop. is you're dealing with, so I was always interested in trying to link biochemistry, provide for biochedstrly in the place wiere I was working. I did at Rochester, had people-I think the first Ph D degree given in @ department at Rochester was a biochcpaiet. and Dr. Wklter R. Bloor in biochemistry particularly about fate, It rsem very natural that the twe, bacteriology and biochenistry, go together like building a house. You can dish up life with a It thrills you very much to think of that and to wonder what it h I had close relatisns with Dr. Job Re Hurlin in nutritien 4 Herecr a letter from D. J. Dades from the Unfversity of Illinois withb lot of samples that he sent you, Was this for course work? Let me see-1.921. These are aU very interesting ungi-Sporothrix, one t

Page  202202 x of them name^ after Schenck and Hektoen, Blastomyket\i, and Streptothrix. These are yeast-like and fungus-like organismso put things like these in the collection. times publish something about, but usually neta I apparently didn*L have any, and I Some of them I weuld study, and same- I notice in the correspondence, and this t3harIx of strains you may have for purpoaes of class worko general, that there is enormous yes, everybody did it, and it grew-well, eaeh person collected a lot of strains, and ym had a culture cellection in your own laboriatary. they had enormous duplicatissn all ever the countryo called the bl,tional Type Culture Collection which is now a collection of thousands of strains of viruses) fungi, bacteria, and yeast. inwashington. After a long, desperate struggle to get funds for keeping it up, it's now richly supported by the National Institutes vf Health, and it I called the National Cultare Collectien. one in the Pasteur Institute in ysrisp Colleoting in these day8 was a characteristic thing. You kept your own rather extensig culture collection because you never knew when you'd want something, and you didn't have time ts wait for the mail,, These things that Davies sent me I would study, and I had a notebook on iuy collectiono and this Is sonething I'd like to say something about when we talk about Dr. Zinsser-in all these organisms its one of the features of their lives, and you have to know thm. Of cour8e Out ef that grew what is ItAs housed here 1 There waa one in England. Therare f I knew what to expect of them because variability- This preparation for class work-later on at Rochester we* tion for classwork is the collection af smplee? et to it-prepara-

Page  203 Oh yes. Castre came later. Collecting specimens even took me into the end of Cuba frat which Yea, that's a special tFip you take that I want toso into by itaelf. 8ojewhere \ along in I guesa it's June ef 19229 Dro Whipple comes into your life, and $here's an exchange of views about a new departmentD with him? Do ysu remember pur talks Whippla becnrms e great Dean-what is the date o the founding of the k Rochester School of Medicitw by Mr. George batman and the Rockefeller Founda- tion. It's abmt this time-1922,, Yes, ,they had time to plan ahead before the school would be ready,, Yesp low before0 medicine, mcept a field t of the Ganesse aver. The story of the foaading and the negotiations betmen Mr. George Eastman and Mr. Abrahaw FlexrrPrr have been well written up, particularly in books about Dr, Whippleg The University of Rochester had .a very intelligent and able president at that time, Rush Rheca, and at that time Dr, Whipple, just before he went to the University cF Rochester,ms the head of the Hooper Faundation of the University ef Califorllis Medical School in San Francimo. Dr, Rhees went out there and saw Whipple who didn't want to leave his deb aut there right auay* if ever, and Dr, Rhees persuaded him to take on the deanship ef the University of Rochester School of Medicine for an indefinite term. Dr, Whipple went to Rochester about 1922, to plau fer this school and to gat a faculty. Hets still them in the laboratory. He's new about 85 year8 old, ami There wasn't anything out there for a school of was on quick sand near a cemetery out OB the bank SP; he's been there a 1ang time-forty sfme year8. I. Rhees wadl very broadminded

Page  204and 88 was Dre Whipple, and Dr. Whipple started about the the that k mete te me-doe8 this have anything to do with the professorship? Well, he started to write to me about the professorship, I think it came about, or what helpkd to bring it to a head about this time was that Dr, Whipple happened to come into the laboratory om day when I was working on the bactericidal effect ef ultra-violet light. 4 That's another man-Van der Lingeno Pes, Jo So Van der Lingen. Africa,, I forget to nention hims - Yer~wll, Van der Lingen wa8 there visiting, and he and I worked tagether, but I think I have =@re papers than that one. Lingen? Is there just one with Van der This is the pne in 1922,PThe - Bactericidal Action of Ultra-violet Light" 34 The Johns Hopkias Hospital Bulletin 11-18 (January,l92517, Well, I had-Van der Lingen was rather a physicisto I think, and he helped me to get spark gaps, cadmium spark gaps, and other things that had a different spectrum in the ultra-violet, and I could, imitating other people who had done it before, spread bacteria on a culture plate, hold tnen up infront of the 8p-k gap, and then incubate the plate. they had been killed, so that you'd get the spectrum of the are in the growth of the bacteria. Well, I was working on that when Dro Whipple came into the The organisas would grow excepk wfiere

Page  205205 Dr. Whippls apparently wrbte me June 22, giving a budget of the department, raying that it would be a department, and telling me about the professorship and other conditions, but I didn't accept this until later in the year-1 forget just whene October. L I I laboratory in Baltimore, ~nd he was deeply interested for reasons I didn't under- ~ stand very well at that time, but I think it had a Tather influential effect en his opinion blf me because he had by then become very close tcs Mr. stman, George stran, a moat rmmarkable man who was interested, of course, in spec- trographs and the spectra of various souraes of light, studying his films. He had a fine physical department, the Eastman Kodak Coxnpat.ly, and Dro Whipple said, "Certainly Mr. Eastman would be interested in this" and told him about it. think that helped me to get an appointmento 1 The appointment dragged on for quite a while. I think that it-I farget when he offered It to meo I There may have been an earlier - contact than these papers, but here's the letter I in Juneo Well, this is soon after his being in %Ltiraore* But then decision was delayed until Uctobero Pee9 They were going to give you a department-that is, when they constructed the school brand mew, it wa8 going to have not only the aaedicsl school, medical hospital, but the city health board tooa

Page  206206 Yes-October of 1922, As I recall it, I asked Dr. Whipple to give me mere thee He wanted the question of appointlnent settled 8oon@r than October, and there may be a letter in here from him agreeing to giving me more tine$ but saying that he doesntt de it with any pleasureo ! that in hen? Yes-not to YOU* but to Dean Williamso I ramamber that expression somewhere ita hem. Well, new the reasrnf for that delay ha$ nothing to do with Rochester. Br, MacCallun practically told me tha$ if I didn't accept this Rochester appointment, he would get the trustees and the faaulty at Hspldns to make a separate department of bacterigogy and make me the professor and head of it. I have never known what happened, but the upshot after his consultation with Dr. Sinon Flexaer and I don't know who else-well, it just sort of died out* I remember I had a final talk with him in which he said that he had not succeedad in arranging this. persan, that they would undoubtedly have made a department at that time and made me the head of it. It had t@ do with Dr. MacCallm. I think if I had been better, or a mere able I think it was the timing, meting @f the trustees in June:. canvim the possibility of developing a Department of Bacterioloa* This cam tn June, and there was to be one more That didnft give them sufficient time to At HopMns? Rieht. They uanted to meet this offer because they didn't want to lose youo That might have been 80) but my impreserionwas fran Dra HacCallum--I don't know that I have any evidence of ibthat if I had rsally been good enough, they

Page  207wobld have taken someextrasrdinary action to hold me there. Nonethelesar this is really a fantastic offer from the University of Rochester. I finally accepted the University of Rochester at that time and started ts work on the plans. Dro Whipple sent us the plans, the blueprints and sketches that had bean made up to that point, and all of us-the young faculty that w as being appointed-each inan had a chance to draw his own floor plana within reasog and I worked on that the latter part of 1922, and 1923, until I went abroad, They theught that it would be good for me to go abroad in 19230 for reveral months and come beock and go to Rschester early in 1924. I was quit@ pleased with their ideas to include in the department provision for doing the work of the Rochester City Bureau of Health-that is,, the diagnostie bacteriology from specimens from sick people, er the whole of the hmuno1@gy8 the Wasstman tests, the pneumococcus type tests, everything that required immunolsgical work and also the bacteriology of water and milk which was a very large job, This was a conception of a ver~r great man in public health whose friendship I enjoyed all the tima I was there and that is George W, Goler, a remarkable man, and one of the early public health figures in this country. He believed earneestly thag the welfare of Rochester and the gsad of the citi%ens would be advanced by having tho Strong korial Hospital, the University Hospital to be, connected very organically with the Mullicipal Hospital, and. they were built aide by side, although they hadseparate administrative management to some extent. The work of the Rochester Health Bureau Laboratories had been dawn in some old buildings In the ceI$CJr ef Rachester by 'rofessor Bhsrrles We Dedge and somewhat under the guidance of Dr. Joseph Hoby, but we planned to take then into my department, the Department of Baeterislogy at the scheol, and in doing se we

Page  208208 drew plans for it, practically provided a ccautnon media kitchen fer the city work a8 well ere for our flchool work and research. We # enough eertainly to start two wings of this huge building, and the wings were about thirtpfivs feet wide and a hundred feet long, as I remember, I had plenty of space, Dr, Goler managed to de smethimg with his city financial people which was quite unusual. He gave me authority to him and fire, SO te speak, engage anybody and put them on the payroll without having the approval of the city paliticiens in auy sense,, The salaries didn't come under city review, except that they were reported to Drr Goler and the supplies they used. Of course they used thousands an housands of dollars werth 8f supplies ef: glassr ware, culture raedia and whatnmt, but these were all purchased by the medical school. A certain proportion ef the total, based on the work without actual count of test tubes and petri dishes, was paid for by reimbursement te the school from the city. ws8 any trouble at all over the finances, or the administration, alone in that respect, although I 8aw plenty ef Dr, Goler and Dro Edward We Mulligan, a remarkable man, Hr. Eastman's physician Dro Joseph Roby, a number of men that are Characteristic of Rochester. It was what you'd call a civie- Rinded placee manner for the good of the community which bpr888ed we very much I could k That arrangement continued all the timeo There never They let ne 1 They really did things in a highly ideafistic, but very practical I liked to work with them all, but Ilm 8ure it had an influence en my future that rather took me out of line for advancement in research* that is my own fault# or a characteristic of my dispositien. to that childhood time when I tald yeu I was being inadvertently trained te be a Dean by my "Tante Euo many tern of thousands of people with 41 sorts @f conditions requiring labora- I think It gees back maybe Pau can't dQ this work in a poplation Qf a good

Page  209tory examination without having to spend a lot of tis OR it and without being willing to put a ade your own work to talk with people who call on the telephone about things of interest to them; namely, the doctors who send in the specimen and the people sometimes from whom the specimen originated, to talk incessantly with the members of your staff who have thousands of problems that you can help $heill solve, to watch the details of administration, to be responsible far proper eupply, equipaient, and materials, and to have a general public relations activity3 whereas if you want to do any really gocd solid reaearchzl you better be the kind of person who says that he has ne concern with those affairs and sticks to his knitting of research* Well, to me, I may have felt unconsciausly that rqy ability in investigation wasn't particularly good, and tha he satis- factions of doing the work that I have outlined were so great that I probably succmbed to the lure0 4 I? + Wepve gone ever an hourg Perhaps wetd better stop todayo u We've gone an heur and twontyriive rnipag Perhaps we'd.better stop today. 1922 to 192b, which involves a trip abroad, the examination (Df other laberatories, meeting dsctere and other people in Paris and Belgium which is importanto Goler is important, but there's a pericpd frau Yes, I went to the Pasteur Institute in Paris and saw the laboratory in Brussels* Let's de that then, mwo This biophysicist that you worked witho That was wholly n - Ban der Ungen?

Page  210210 Yese That was wholly new. the work with Zimser, that kind of continuum, but same of the things were accidental, episodie. There are more special cases that come up to pathologyL but that's the nature of the job, Hopkins. they might be eff a line of development. csdd have foretold that one? Initially the nature-I can see some traces bac I Yeurre there, and they excite interest at They r equire study and the publication of a paper. "fnev happen, but Then thccident with the cata. Who Then Vater Lingen, South African background, a 1 1 biophysicist, Mutt year was that? This was 1922, of 1921-1922-Vhe Bacteriacidal Aetion of Ultra-violet Light." He ww a lecturer in bisphysics at Johns HQ~Mw in the uinter I used to ccarrespond with Van der Lingen after he went back ts South Africao Itwas called a Department of Pathology and Bacteriology at that the, I had forgotten that they had given it that name. It saysr The work was undertaken under the direction of Dro Van der Lingen, who was Lecturer of Biophysics in the Johns Hopkins Bedicsl School during the winter of 1921-1922, After his return to the University of Cape- town, Seuth 4.trica to take up his dnbies as Senior Lecturer in Applied Mathematics, I obtained the data on the absorption spectrum of a bac- terial euulsion, the action of the inner ultr let ld ght (390-3cx)Kw) the temperature coefficient of the bactericid ion of light, and the effect of hydroge ndon c once ntration, It I see I did this after he'd gone. Ymwent on with the work+ As I remember it, he was interested in this, talked tok about it, and he was there for a b~hilo, but the note says that I went on with 1% after he left, and those things are the important things in this papero I think I have

Page  211211 a $#ture in here of the spark spectrum. There's the killing region* This is the culture--see. There's the killing region around 200-300 mm, That*s the same thing-the spectral lines come onto I may be wrong- as I read -- this paper, ny understanding was that it was an effort to fix more pre_cise_lg_ * where the killing limits were. _._ Yese I forgot how that began. Van der Lingen was not in my department. He was overo I think, with Dr. John J, Abel, pharmacology, but *!ve forgotten. There'a the cat study. All right? K Then mat,s get episodic / againo For example,* there's worj~ there with the Deparhent of Pediatrics -_ and Drg Lawson --- Wilkins PIndurated Ulcer ef the Tongue -4 - c- \ due to Odium Lactis" 26 American Journa of Diseases e--- of Children 77-82 (July, * 192327, Tissue Simulating Mycelial Filmnts in Skin Scrapings" 8 work with DrcTsaae R. Pel8 in the Department of Deneatoloa /%lastic Some af that work would come about this way. I'd be workiag, and these people WOU~~ get interested in something, and theytd bring the stuff up to w roomo Sametimes you'd gr through thousands of things like that. Ia this still running ? Smetbnes you doatt do anything. Sometimes it makes a great difference. Irt each instame, I think, there was material -hat could be worked onA a sgecific ,A. case which is mentioned. -

Page  212212 That one with pels is just clearing up 8 false observatione A curieus thing --the elastic tissue fibers in the skin branch and twist like fungus grarwth, and to make a diagnosis of a fungus lesion, or a crusted fungus lesion on the skin, you scrape it, and it shows that you can get things that look like fungi aut of it, We had to do a differential stain, I think, to make it. Does Dmison appear in there yet-li'ilburt Co Daviaon? P' Yekthis book conkna his paper,"Mvisiom=he So Called Flexner Group of Dysentery Bacilli", - /T2 Journal of Experimental Medicine 6511663 (December, 192027. - - I" Davison brought that in, What year is that? Well, Davison had been a Rhodes Scholar, a great, huge man, and while he was at Oxford, he learned some new ways e differentiate dysentery and typhoid organisms, This was largely an outgrwwth of the warl and h brought the material to my laboratory with a note frolo Dro Osler, I think, e 6 1 That's not in this csrrespondence, is it? I think it probably was In his own pocket. This leads inta bacteriophage, but that's what happened to me aU the tiAeo Baoteriology kj related somehow to nearly everJgtNng that sick people, doctors, and students are concerned With, and all the time people were bringing things to the labora- tory, getting me to look at them. what it Kill do. Sometimes it is easy to say what it is and Sometimes it is not easy. It's new, and then you study a little. That's rather scattery work. Let's call a halt teday, and Itll ~lee you tmorrow. Are you finished with this %lat book?

Page  213Tuesday, April 26, 1996 A=%, N. L. Ma Since you have to go at three o*clock, we'd best get at itr J wanted to go back to some observations that you may have with respect to this initial ex- perience you had with the teaching of students. hand about which we commented somewhat yesterday, but how did you find teaching? A lot of other things were at Well, the formal teaching of bacteriology to medical students was the beginning of teaching of bacteriology in a formal manner, but at Hopkins you're teaching all the time-even before you graduate. I had , as I told you, a substitute position as an intern almost from my second year on, and every intern has undm hir a number of people called clinical clerks who work ri@t along %e hin and do a certain amount of the routine worko The c3inical clerk examines the patient the same as the intern does, and the intern discusses his patient with his clinical clerk. He is teaching right fram the start. The method is there. You imitate your chief, As a matter of fact, some of the iaaitatiow got to be so ingrained that you couldn't tell the resident from the chief surgeon sawtiapes because of his manner and t way they emphasilied one thing, or another. Teaching as such was no new experience to we when I wentinto the bacteri- ology after the war. You see, after being an intern in medicine, I was an Assistant Resident in I was teaching in pathology at that time. and you're responsible for groups of the class. The only difference was the size of the class and the administration of the program for teaching. The subgect really wasn't a new subject to me. youngsters-well, 5 never felt that partfcularly in aqy competitive sense. You speak of efforts to keep ahead of the Itts

Page  214I very stimulating to find sme student who has picked up something and is ahead of youo My difficulty with the subject of bacteriology at that tiare, to tell you the truth, was that I never tnd any real,broad basic training. I went for a while with Dr, Zincsser and worked on a research problem, as you know, and then that was broken up, Then the war broke up the next beginning, so I always felt that, unlike a good many other men that were in the line of teaching and re- search, I had a lack of basic training which made it rather difficult, but perhaps a little nore fun,, Teaching also involved the teaching of nurses. I taught a course in bacteriology for nuries right from the start which means-well, you don% talk down to them, but they dontt have the basic information that the medical student had had fram a college courser Most of those young people, fran high school, or else first, or second year in some college. Interesting group to teach. sinplify too nwh. You give thexn a fairly aound cour8ep and then I had occasional teaching experiences with visiting groups of people, o as a visiting lecturer, or I had a se~ninar at sone other nedical school. 1 young women, were They were an You had to erirnplify a good deal, but 1 didn't I Was the fact that you had tlinety students after the war a unique thitw? Yes, ninety students is much too much--too twnerou~. You can hardly get around to give nuch individual attention to a compny that size. About fifty or sixty Is a manageable lot, and besides uith bacteriology culture media is so varied and the containers of it so numerous that you deal with things by the gross rather than in smaller lots, but teaching ninety students was a very severe sort of burdeno Fortunately I only had one year of thato It's a combined lecture-laboratory course? 1

Page  215Yes, it was a combined lecture-laboratory course. Usually I think we lectured too much, Mostly we had some lecture perhaps every morning. gotten what the schedule wasO but I carried that through at Rochester tooI Me had a great many lectures, but after a while, at least in my experience, being a teacher for a little while teaches the teacher how to get the students to give their own lectures. that you can apply. you can ask questions and then ask another student what he thinks about that, and with a little suggestion and whole lecture without having delivered it. As a matter of fact, the student8 give the lecture, if you nanage the class with tact and know when to put in the right word. Itve for- I It s 8 very interesting little socratic method perhaps If you know what you want to bring out and face a class, nt every now and then, you bring out the ti help you to amplify the statement that you've just madewere you a book man with the course? Md you ham a book, a text on which you relied? Yes, we used Hiss and Zinsser. Thatwas the basic text, but there was a famous old book before that by Sternberg, the great masterpiece of early bacteriology, a huge volume with a thousand or more pages, but we tried always to direct the attention of students to current literature and basic things that were not in textbookso We tried to get them to read some of the originiil.8. If they could read French or Gemg so much the better. at Hopkins was to avoid the didactic textbook in most things, if possible, but I think I told you onoe before that we had one resident in niedicine that taught The spirit of the teaching us by having us sit down and open Osleres Principles and Practice sf Medicine, and he would read it and ~ay,~Now, underline this sentence.''

Page  216216 That didng-t arouee much snthwlaaaa. You have an aveysion to that approach even at this late date, so I would assuine in talking about teaching, yo u would have avoided that sort sf thing a8 one dew the plagueo Ye8, In stme places I think the teaohere are 80 respectful of the textbook TlUL3 a so tUd that they don% dare go beyond the cwers of that bsok, but at the Hopkfas right fraar the start a apirit of independent inquiry is en- l- couraged in the entering students as well 81) in the teaohera them~elves. Did you get much challenge frm the students? Tt's hard for me to recall, but you always feel a challengee Youwant to lee theza light up with srcitsllent ef the knowledgo that 8tady and discussion brought to their view, and very often you fiad highly thoughtful, original mhdd you@ men that are able to sustain substantial distussion, but they vary all the way frm people who don't do amythiag at all to people who are very bright and run ahead. I think this is aleo a period-1 mentioned this to you before ue turned the machine omwhen you got marriedo Te8, I got married June 25, 1921+, Curiously enough, I always get the 21 and the 25 mixed up, 80 that I have to go back and think about itr The lady I was fortunate enough to nrsrry was froar an oldBaltinore family, Among her antsastors weye Robert Smith who uas the! Secoard Seoretary of the Navy and General Samuel Mth who won the battle Of Baltimore. ww living at that time with her great unale, #r. John Donnell Wth, who had She

Page  217217 house until after World War I, because I had heard so maw fine things about become a world renowned-where did you pick up his name? He was a botanist. had passed on. The connection in hem is curlow. Hr. Johns DonneU Smith was in the @ass of 1847, at Yale with my grandfather, Thomas Levingston Bayne. They were cla8s- mates. Louisiana Washington Artillery and got wounded at Shiloh, and Mr. John DonntsU saith, although srnaing from a town that was divided between the South and the North-Baltv waa a double allegiaace town--went into the Army of Northern Virginia and served under Jackson and General Lee as an Artillery Captain, Richmond fell in 1865, and q grandfather was there connected with the Ordnance Department under General Josiah Gorgas-that ' s my grandfather Bayne-aad Us wife was about to have a babyo WhenRichmond fell, S. We Wth, the father of John DonneU Smith, brought her to his house in Baltimore, and rshe had her baby in Baltimore. stupidity on my part, Or some iap~essim I had made, They went to the Civil War at the same theo Mr. Bayw was in the 0 The fsaily connectionwae very close, and it was Juat kind of that I Cidn't call there. Nannie Moore Smith, as the future Wrs. BaynecJones was named, had been trained as tan expert x-ray technician and had worked with Dr. Lewellys Fo barker, - m

Page  218218 She was drawn into service in the war, went abroad, not with the Hopkins Unit, but with another hospital unit which, curiously enough, was at BazoUlesp so I passed verg close there in 1918, but didn't know that she was in that place. This went an. boat in the Baltimore harbor, No, that nust have been 1920, or 1919-I forget which. In any eent), ue were married in 1921, and soon set up house keeping in a little ahvided house 0n *ark Avenue with very little to live on at that time. It wae ody in 1921, that I happened to meet her on a little sail v 4 Md you meet and get to know the uncle? Yes, I got to know Wrs Suith. %.I. tell you how he got to be a botardrt* It's very remarkable that he did so muchb After the Civil War he did not knew quite what to do with hiuwlf. He felt unhappy in baltfmnore because Maryland had not seceded, Finally he took himself off to Guatemala, Nicaragua and Honduras, and he made a fundamentalp basic, systematic collection of the flora of theare countries. He had his house when I sav it full o a888 of his herbarium. hter on I saw lot8 of the folders of his herbarium at Keu Gardens in London,, He described all these plants in Latin and published several glgau books on them and very accurate observations. his herbarium folders never contained lsixtures of plantso They were all parts of the same thing, and thatts very unusual because the Sanature stages of thema are hard to recognilee, so the. basic descriptions of the flora of Gatemala, Nicaragua, and Honduras are those of John Donne1 Smith in the 18709, early 1880s. I think he named two hundred atxi fifty species, but not sure. Itts a terriflc lot of thingso I was interested in function and what the plants did, bow they developed and propxgated themselves. 9. They tolld me at Kew Gardens that I never could talk to hiw much about botany because He was altogether interested in the vination of leaves

Page  219rad the wag the leaf came eff the stem and all tho rorphobogical detailso w~b not interested in function at all, He That (8 interesting, Yes, I went through the Victorian standards and requlrements of his domain, When we got around to it, I mmember going to tee Captain John DonneU Smith in his study, and I asked him if I could have the h nor of the hand of his granch neico in marriage-a very solmn occasion. He thought it over for a while and ssid all righto K He apparr 0ccasiomll.y in the correspwdence. Yes, he need to COR. up frm Park Avenue-they lived on Park Avenue and HMiltoa Street, I thi~k-arrgrway one of the cress streeta, and we lived at eight hundred and SBIB mll11)3tr further up 621% Park Aveaug. Herd walk up to our llttlc apartisent and sanetinea have supper with us, sit and talk. Hrs. Bap-dcnes was very, very fond of him0 We talked about the effar from the Universitv of Rochester laat time and the c effplrt made to Bee whether Johns Hopkina would break through awd create a separate departaent for bacteriology BPI had already been dons at P & S and, I think, at California, In any event, they didn't do so, BB you had this Rochester possibility before you of really growing up with a brand nswdepartments to shape and mold it the way go u wanted to uithout any vested interests standing in your s, but befsre going there, I think from July, 1923-thcugt1, I think, ysu accepted the cffer in October ef 1922-there was ne plant in being, as I under- stand it, at Rochester at the time, snd they were very much interested in I Fathering a faculty that would sit in judgment DD its growth. Well, plan for ita growth, Dot a judpent on its growth,

Page  220220 In short, they were looking ahead. but fraa July, 1923, on you take a trip abroad. As I think I told you, therets one letter fran England. Your only camanent is a geaeral coament,wI have beenseeing lots -of doctors, some sick people and many bacteria." whether aqy occur to you now. This is a safari in a field of which you'd prown enamored. !the letter doesn't allow you to risk any speeifics. I wonder Well, the arrangement for goiug abroad at that time originated with Drc Whipple and President Rhees at Rochester. would not be any need for me as an active member I'hey saw a period where there of the faculty, There wasn't ~ any school then, and there wasnft any teaching. I worked hard on my sectisn of ~ the plaus in the early part Bf 1923, and they thoughb that it would be very \ good for me, as they did for other oncaning members of the faculty, to go abroad and see what I could see in that time. tradition also because Dro Welch went abroad nearly every year. Dro Halsted and Dr, Osler went abroad. quite natvral for one ccaing from New Orleans to go abroad, because the young men of New Orleans went by s ea to Paris and London a great deal before the Civil War, and the New Orleans Medical and Surgical Journal is full of interek@ing observations of these visitors on the European clidcs and laboratories, so much so that trips abroad continued after the war* iron curtain came down between the North and the South, men were still going out of New Orleans, so that some of the members of my fanily--my grandfather Jones went to Lordon and Paris in 1871, and so it was natural to want to go abroad to see theee people an he things that they were doingo That, of course, was in the Hopkins That wag the thing to do. As a matter of fact, it was 7) During the Reconstruction when the 42 2 9 It is astonishing to me how I had entre without being known. I must have had same wonderful letters that don't show upo I probably delivered them to

Page  221221 the authorities, but I saw the chief people in the bacterio1oE;ical laboratories at least in London, Paris, and Brussels-those arb the chief oneo--0xford, and good people in Edinburgh, so I must have had good introductions frum Dr. Welch and others because I was a totally unknown person at that time. Theexpenses of the trip were paid for by Rochester which began to provide for ray expenses even before my formal appointmen which was around about October, wasn't it? I couldntt have afforded that trip on my own mall income, but we went ever on a-I think it was a second class passage we may have taken to get Over on, one of the big boats, and in Pariswe went straight to Paris, and Nan and I got a place in a pewion in Paasy where they spoke only French which helped us to learn a little French. i I should know ore French than I do, but I prevent d rayself from learning iz i French, I think, because I soon found out--my Uncle George Denegre who spoke French fluently andmy "Tante E", his wife, spoke French, and one day at the dinner table when the three of us were together, they started talking French. I uwierstood every word of it, and they were talking about me, so I didn't let on that I undershod. I never sved any capacity in the French language, but I learned a great deal about myself. sufficient accent so that it wasntt altegether neglected, but I had no facility with it. s though, that if you have a little basic material at that age or earlier, you can rather develop it in the situation+ 0 f could ead French, and I acquired a t It's curi 4 I talked French with these people in the pension and on he Metro, and I 1 had introductions that admitted me to the Pasteur Ivtitute, I saw Emile Roux who was the great man early on diptheria, a great, tall, ascetic figure like a prelate of the iquisition abost, and with him was A. Besredka. in the laboratory. Besredka was an immunologist of considerable interest to I met Besredka

Page  222222 Dr, Zinsser and otherso I The chief friend I made there was at Garsche outside of Paris where ffaston 1 I Ramon was the nan in chargeo bon thenwas about in hisafifties, and he had charge of the -king of diptheria toxin and antitoxin at Garacheo He discovered a method of titrating diptheria toxin by mixirg the toxin and the antitoxi0 sera in a proper proportion. strength of the toxin against the known strength of the antitoxin, or you cauld reverse that and titrate the antitoxin, 'if you knew what the strength was of the toxin you had. This method had to go in and out between animal testing and test tube testing. Well, I learned the method, and when I came back to this country0 I went up to the State Serum Laboratory in Albaw, a year or so, going from Rochester to Albaqy, and I got Dr. A. B. Wadsworth, the chief, and his assistant, Mary Kirkbride, to set me up in A 1 noratory and give me unknowns from their big supply of texins and antitoxins because they wre making diptheria toxin sad antitoxin for bu Pork State at that time+ This method worked aut se well that 1 published a paper or so on the titration of toxin and antitoxin by the flocculation nethod, PThe Titration of Diphtheria Toxin and Antitoxin by Ramonrs Flocculation Methed" 9 Journal of hunoa 481-504 (November,lY24) ; and "The Titration of Toxins and Antitoxins by the Flocculation Met Chapter 54 The Newer Knowledge of Bacteriologg and huno1og-v (Chicage, 1928) 759-77g. point of it becam suy close friend, and he credited me with introducing his method in the United States. There was nothing original on my part, except that I had good facilities andb lot of things to work with. Ramonwas coming into international notice at that the so that ever since 1923, until he died a few years age- I had some papers of hiso There was a flocculation, and pu could tell the .L - - The particular value to me wae that this remarkable Dr,, Gaston Ramon p. I don't know whether I left them in the file hem,

Page  223223 but he kept sending me his publications, particularly after he got a prize or two from Rome, or Paris, and he began to write a great deal about his own importance , I found one of thoseva history of him work, - -- ~~ He was a most interesting man, and of course that stable-like laboratory at Oar has a room on the second floor where Pasteur died, and it was a laoving thing for me to go out there and 8ee it. ! IC~ they an the development of equipment? I_ They were low on the development of equipment. A taboratory in those days I was like a poorly equipped kitchen compared with what you find in laboratories nowadap with all the high speed centrifuges, the refrigerators, the extraordinary microscopes, and the many things that you can haveo They were using their flits and their finger8 more than they used their hi class laboratory glassware and so forth. 14 Well, I think I stayed in Paris longest of any place on this trip. I got a great deal out of it that still stays with me. with men of original) scientific integrity and imagination is an influence you crave? and you can never escape it if you wanted to. your lifeo Particularly the association It is bound to affect I forget where we went next. I think the next thing I did was to go up ayself frum $ais to the North. I went to Brussels st. Oh yes--s. Bayne- Jones was With me at Brussels. t I had a lettert two letters, a letter I think from Ziwser to Dro Jules Bordet who was the great immunologist, about in the same rank a8 Zrlieh who founded iaoaUnology, and I net Dr. Bordet in his laboratory,

Page  224He had wrfttea some great books which I think influenced Dr, Zinsaer as nuch ag my writings of the tine. I happened to how a brilliant scientist and an able writer named Paul de Kruif. Do you know who I mean? Of coarse 1h.lichfs books were also nfluemtial. P Yes 0 IIY I think that de Kruif had writtenHicrobe Hunters at that time. Also he hael gotten in trouble at the Rockefeller Institute by sayfng things that Drb Flexaer didn't like. b Kruif w88 in Jules Bo detf6 assistant, Andre Gratias which I kept for a long time becawe it was the best opener of confidenee that I have ever had. De Kruif just teld him,"This is Bd. Give him sone pvet de lapi2 and you can tell him anything," and he gave ma a letter to \ c \ Do ~rou know what civet de lapin is? C It's rabbit cooked up in a brwn gravy with RMves and wineo I got to know this man quite mils and he took me areundo Mrs. Bayne-Jaws and I took a trip out into the battle fields of Ypres before we departed Prom that regien, aud they were still vary rough-Bhellholes and barbed wire and quite interesting, Unbelievable 0 Then I went tcw-well, she went somewhere, and I went on North to Berlin on a train. ferry to Copenhagen, Demuark. There mi a very great man there named Theodore Madsen, a pupil ob the great physical che~nirrt (I, was equal to Bordet and elich. Hadsen was the head of the Senm Institute at Fraa 'arlin, as I recall it, I went em to Warnemfinde where I tosk a uolgoist, Arrhenlus, nhe

Page  225Copenhagen, I visited there, 8aw him and a number of hi8 assistants, and got to learn about various fungi and serelogical reactions, particularly of toxin and antitoxin, complement ation, and so forth. f- That was a tlnm that 1 saw some amaalng financial changes. %e German financial situation had gom to pieces, 80 that when I got off the train on the platfena in uerlin$ the newspaper was offered to me for even nillion narks--ene little sheet. Yeu can see what the debasement ef the currency wa8. My dinner in the dlniqj car was a billten and something marks. paLent with three Gemna on the way up that Oight, and we got to talking a little about these things-fortunately they could speak English, and somehaw er ether It came out that I had a few dollars in my pocket. one of these men gave me four billion lgprrlcs for a om dollar bill. That- equal to tw, hundred and sixty nillion dollar8 in the old stybs so I learned sm eco~tomics froan that part of the trip. That certainly wa8 a way to cancel all your debts by paying eff In this debased paper noneye I was aittlng in a caw Itpa interested again in equipment. Bow ut18 the Cepenhagen laborator@ Thatws fine, me of the better OR~S. Itwrsntt any better than what we had in the United States, but it wa8 well equipped so far a8 glassuare is concerned and incubatorao In thwe days bacteriological equipment was neither very ornate nor intricate, You could make most of it yourself. From Cspenhagen I went across (nor inte Sweden, to Stwkholm, because there I had a Mend-eh shucks, Iwae going to say his name) but it will came back to BL~ in ca mlnute--who had visited me in Baltirore and also was well known as a bacteriologist. He took me around to the Karolinsky Institute which really had an effect on ma because there wer? several nen there sf importance whe were

Page  226226 working on the variations of bacteria. They uere getting away fram the mono- merphlc ldeaa of Robert Koch which Dr* Zinsser held to very closely-so did Dr. Welch-and since seeing that these organisms had a life cycle maybe, and a great series of farms where one was as valid as the other, but Koch and the doctrinaire people said that those were either contani ats, or degenerative phases, and they threw them out. That-uell, I saw enough there to be convinced and get intere8ted in the subdeck, and I met awe people who had interest in baeterlalvariation. one of those was de Kruif who described what are called rough ad srooth colonies af bacteria. 4 At that time, if read from the textbook, the ordinary descriptien wam that On the (L coloqy ef a certda organism would be round, mooth, and glistening. mame plate, very often, you saw erinXly little colonies that were rough and wrinkled, and often you didn't see them at all, even though theyuero there, don't know-you can be totally blind to what's in front of you, if you don't think it belongs, but Che8e rough colonies were a variant of the orgadam. The esaooth uas a variant too. and different serological effects, At that time the rough and smooth variations of bacteriology were coring on, and 1'11 tell you Bore about it when I get te London. I saw nen whe had been at this kind of work for years, and it opened my eyes a great deal, 80 much so that later on in Rochester in 1932, when I went to work with Dr. Wnsser OR the revised edition of the textbook which I rewrate practically, I introduced a great deal of bacterial variation in that revision that Dr. Ziwser never coantemnced beforeo Now, it98 the cwrmen, ordinary thing, but Iwas irpressod psychologically that actually those colony forms could b right 1rn front of ne, and I didnlt even838 them, and when I did me thea, I discarded them for a nmber of years without looking aty further. I had a good I A' hey did have different prepertiars of pathagenicity

Page  227227 and Interesting time in Stockhola. Can you think ef the man in Stockholm? I I think it 8 in the corr-ondence. Let me turn this reel over and take a look. m All right? My bacteriologist frieni at HopMns, uhm I had men before,wrs Hildring Bergstrand who also was a man tho was interested in those early days in bacterial variation, Suedish antiquities and a place called Sks$nsing where they recenstructed the old habitations ef the swedes in the early Christian era, cabias, and people dressed in the costumes ef the pls ef the time. Sweden at that time (1923) wa8 in the stage of matdern architecture. Their Bty d.lma a most startling plaee-violent colars, ebew colunrns agaimt yellow backgr@unds, and distorted images em the walls. lht they call "the modern phase" was cdng in then. I'm leaving out all the cultural side of thiar trip, like d 2 No, I didn't have a guide, I had 089 guido for the firat visit, but that wa8 long after a long dinner party, and Bergatrsrad took me there at elevea o'clock at ~ght ts the hrolinsky Institute. Those Swedish dinner parties are remarkable thiags. the afteraom, and this is not an exaggeratioao I think we ate a mter of eel in centimeter slices, and between each sllce 6f eel you had a drink of aquavit and you had to make a speech, or solrebody made a speech, so it lasted a long thee All the time I was collecting in wy head lafo~mation abu% these things. I dtbatt believe I hav-e e any diaries, or notebosks of the tripo The me ltm thinking about new started at four o'clock in I dodt think I kept notea. Letts go on to England. I forgot how I got

Page  228228 Well, *%I sorry I don't rmember the nane of this friend of fineo I will later probably. He had a Isotercycle with a dde car, and he took me en oae trip ~ to Blenheh Castle of the Marlboroazghs which is a marvelous big thing, #an and there, but in England Man awl f were together, and we traveled around a little. The chief trips we made were one to Edinburgh and one tf Oxford, Edinburgh was partly sight seeing and partly because I heard that a fanous doctor namd Dr, Byraa BrcmweU. had specinens of BenceJones protein. to call on him, and 1 found hin in this beautiftil Adam h@use. He gam am a rial Qf this protein which I brought back and worked en at so986 time or another* Edinburgh wab a ebaming and int9reating city, but rather ip-grsp stoma, high buildingr, -re or lesa ermW. There was one goad w4k up om to the hill called Arthur'r Seat, and there88 a geed view frm up there. 1 think it wa8 getting on toward fall when we got there because aad the hotel was cOldO 0 The one te I went it was getting kind of chilly, Then we cam c)n back-I think we came back that tire3 I'll say we did go to Oxford first-yes, and at Cbcferd I ran aero88 a man whore name I have forgatten, but who uaa an officer in one of the British Ambulancre Cempanies I served with during the war. He wad) working in the laboratory on newmethgds of agglutination reactions for the identification of typhoid and paratypheid which is a great group ef variable bacteria that V(LB being worked oat chiefly Arkwright. Arkmight was famous for that new rerologicaf. work where you could da something with this group that had not been done very auck before-that is type them. They gave them letters-type A, B, C, and so forth and V-1--there are lots of different names) but thatb Important because you could link the typo to particular infectioas and outbreaks. A lot of basic infomation waa caging out about the nature ef the constitution of'theare organisms. Dr. Joseph A.

Page  229I wandered areund sad saw beautiful things at Oxford, Bodlean, the theater, the 3tai glaars windowe, Christ Church, Magdelin College, Balliol, lots of things. rtw(u3 satisfying having read a great deal about ito atructure that fit in with rernantic notions of early reading of those tiaea. rhen we went on to London, or got to London at one time or anether, or maybe several times. Haw I knew where people were, or whether I weat to Institutiom just are# I doart how, but I went te St. Barthalagew@8 Hospital I renember, and there I met anether gentlemn who uaa very far advanced on bacterial variation. Have yen got Sto Bartholmnewrs down there? Lb 9 It was a romantic das it a Dr. T. doekes? It- have been Joekes-no. This was a tall-Irve forgettea hi8 name. could have looked up amme Of this. They were very kind and showed me their labraterims whichwere like all the Other laboratories, but there ya~s a good deal of interesting talk. lntha typhoid group together with sane of the anaeroMc spore bearing organisms +at had caused a 16t of trouble in the war-tetanus and gas gangrene type Bacillaa welehio Then over at anather hoapital across the river I met Dr. Po Pildea . I Then I net Leonard Colebrmok who was also interested I didn't FUR acrcss his nameo Fildes was there, aud he was very far advanced in the baroteriology mf tetanus. He was separating tetanus bacilli ints tdn forming and nea-toxin fanning, and studying antit in, but Fildes comes back ints my life again with biological warfare because later on he YBI head of the Portland Laboratory where the Brftieh went so far with bacterlolegitml warfare, particularly with anthrax. k

Page  230230 Have you run across aw of that yet? sn4et get. That's up ahead of me. v To anticipate it-I won't go inte the prtory-as World War II was caping along in 1939, Secretary of War Henry Le StirPson got aroused by newspapor accounts that the German8 were using bacteriological warfare and that a good deal had been published en the subject, so he called mn advisory cosaaittee, and even before the war he invited ne down here te sit with General James SI Shuons, Merrit P. Sarler, E. F. Frod, and Captain Charles S. Stephensou whe wad later an Adniral, and we were the first biological warfare committee for the War Department. We cellected a lot @f inforaratlen, but A1ll CQLB te that later becaaso that mounts to sarething in World War 11. Was Dr, Fildea thinking In term8 of variability at that tinw teo? Oh yes, they all were. Itwas new arid exciting, and it, was sanething that you had to pay attention to. Who else have you got on that list? I had Arkwright, but at the Lister Institute. 1 ArkWright was at the Lister Inetitnte, and I ti#) he had an influence on the Oxford hberstory. I went to the Lister Institub and got 80- cultures out of their collection to bring too. I think thaiaccounts far the correspondence. Then ther e '8 Professer George $uttal at Cambridgeo You pronounce hipl Nuttal. He was the great parasitole@8tr Pes 0 -

Page  231He had been on the ataff of Dro Welch's department at Hopkins in the 1880s, and Nuttal wrote great books on parasitology, the protozoa, and sther things. He was a very learned mane I didn't get to know him, but parasitology always fascfnatsd me. We used the word "beautiful" about these creatures, and they are. They're larger than bacterial You can see nuch mere about them and cenoerse with them in a different manner than you can a little obscure IIPicroorganisrr. They ham conplicated life cycles, and they do all sorts of extraordinary thingsr I didn't see much sf Dr. Nuttal. Ceasbridgo, I think, and I didn't get much to Cabridgo, and eurisusly I don't know#uch absut Cambridge. IWW things ef quanta, and quite a difference from the Oxferd development. Word I ossoebetd with literature and biology, and Capbridge I a8sociata with physics and mathematics. e I know he waer clorse to Oslere He was 0% Cambridge I associate with atemie phyrisa, all the There is correspondence with Clifford Go Eobelle Clifford Dobell was at the hospital of the British Medical Research Council at Hatapstead, something like that, and Debell was a most perspicacious, precise and exquisite literary scientist as well as being a parasitologist of unequalled facility in handling these organisnu and separating them. He wrote a great treatise OR the amebae. He was able to separate them, He had five varieties, and his books were the autheritativr boks on Ameba histolytioa which was the cause of dysentery and the ether endamoebae and the varieties but his great eathwridim in life was the study of the writings f the man who discmered the bacteria and the protosoa and that is Anton van Leeuuenhoek--do hat exist there, I yea how ma?

Page  232Dobell wrote a great book ualled Leeuwenhoek and His Little Animals. He had published that. 16th Century Latin and, more astonishing yet, he could read the Dutch script of Leeuwenhoek who wrote tremendous letters to the Secretary of the Rsyal Society, Clifferd Bobell with all his impatience had learned to read That's where Ms original descriptiens in the late 1600s and early 17008 came @ut, Leermenheek drew the first picture of bacteria ubich I copied, and every- be else has copied in booke they OPritS. Leeuwenhoek developed his ~wll lenaes ad his own microscope, but he didn't havm a tubular micromope. bRd take a little glmo bead, 8 8pheFicd bead, and mount it, and then he would put Us little drop of water mu the point of a pin, a mehow er sther fscw on it, eeo what he could mea and through magnification-you know, you can get a nmgnifi- cation through a spherical thing. 11 was quite wonderful what he dido He dise covered the bacteria. He discovered fungio He scraped teeth and, of coursea if pu scrap. your teeth, you can find anything. He drew muscle fibers that no one had seen and really, I think he put in the link that wa8: missing when Harvey described the circulatien of the blood because Leeuwenhoek discovered capillaries, the little, fine vessels that exlet between the veins and the arteries. disprery is attributed to hl.q/Lus, but I thfnk that k8uWenhOek--4knd Ma pictures are about the same tire in the 1600a-is just 613 inportant a8 lIalpighiu8, 80 Leeuwenhoek exists eu the cover of the Journal of BacteriologZ, I*m looking to Bee if you have one here. \ 4 That c j There he is--hets ~ur great saint* Debell was callectiag and studying this man. Yes, Debell collected al his erigfnal tbingrs, translated them frolll the J original butch, mat boob. He was associated with a hospital under this Medical Research Ceuncil.

Page  233233 Yes, ht Debell wasn't working on patients at the hospital; he ua8 working en the. ameba. This National Institute for hdical Rosearch that I suspect.... The Briticfi National Institute for Medical bsearch? I don't know whether it's called nWationalm-Briti8h bdical Research Institut.. I dsn't know, but that was a great center of their national effort in medicinel, I went there particularly. inuunolagy. and they were all mry nlee. nection with typhas. It was concerned with my om field, bacteriologys mycology and I wet aut to Mill Hill and aaw people working on various things, I came back to it again in World War II in con- The British Elrpire-XrrBia, Singapore, Australia-there was an Institute ef Hygiem and Tropiczd. Medicine in Louden, I thinko There had been an Institute of Hygiene and Tropical Hedidne in Londen for years and years. It had been a great centtar of interest in that subpct. And there am divisions of teaching in the London Lacbdica School deveted t. to thi8-a School of Tr pical diCiaer* R \ I know of your own interest in tropical medicineB but its als~ a spur for the developuemf ef the Academy of Tropical Medidna in 193b, after this trip, d thought it ait have tielpod, theugh I don't knowe Oh well, when that cme upt it was a natural interest and advance thereo

Page  234234 I was a founding amber d' the American Academy of Tropical Medicine that started right hero in was intgon, started through the efforts of the Dean of George Washingtea School of k,dicine8 Earl Bo HcKitdLey, but gou dontt usat that nowe 1 lo. As you think abeut this who\e trip-this lunch counter, where you had a ubanoe to sample the experience of other mewit must have stretched you. Oh ye88 i .CJ enormously interesrtiag and aluaye a part of the whole plece. 4 I didn't feel auym-well, if it were a luwh counter, it was kind of a Lazy Swan lunch counter, that just went aroud. -de There wasart arny beginning, or 9 I\ I vas thinking of 1.- developrent8 at the University of Roeheater for the Departmat of Bacteriology* yes, it brad an enormous effect because it opened your mind, and yea had t a viaien sf wht people were daingo I want to talk te you about the University of' Rochester, but I thin wetd better step nmo Ye8, don% get into ft beoruse that's a 10s story, and I1ve got to go.

Page  235235 Befora f turned this on3 I Rave you sogethiw of q interest toQg, I guese we can break it down into two thpica. 1923-192h-what was in the dr? `How worrld yau characJteri thio tom? This haa a,lot to do with what happened, The other topic 18 this group of mea pictured here that were breught togother even while the school of medicine vat3 being developed and who gartlaipated, in tellps of whatever it is they brought with them in experience and insight and ability, in its develqment, so that there's really the town and this new mutati@n, a rk?w medical acbol. 0 Om is the town of Rechester itself) I \ Rochester is one of the older towns in Nerthern Hew Pork. Of cour80, \ having been interested in Indian remains frgl ay Grandfather Jones thio, I found when I got to Rnchester that it was the heme land of the Seasca Indians. It was full cf Indian relics and Indianlore. Roche8ter began in the 17th Century when the French moved in from Canada and began to settle, Then along about-maybo the middle of the 18th Century, er toward the Closing of that century it began to get into the hatlds of American people-@ish people first who began to build up (L town as so many of those places were originally started on the sit888 or en the locations of waterfallso They used right away the power fron three waterfalls that are in the city. The Genesee River passes through Rochester, and they built mills. wheat and other things, exploitation of the resource8 of the country both in power and in prji\duots. They raised grain in that region, and they began te grind It began as rather a center of ingenious economical 0 Then perhaps in the early 19th Century, 2612, @r thereabouts, or even later, Getmans began to mwe in thereo They had a tremendous effect en the develepent E

Page  236ef the Industries in Rochester and OB the cultural outlook nf the people. sure thag did, Rochester becepme net only a great milling center, it also became a greet transportation center when the Erie Canal went through there and the rqllrraacb began to go through, but there alae developed frsrr the early tinbs, through these Geraans particularly specialised industries6 Bosch and Lemb is an (wt(~1pp1e. Rwherter became a great cenfier far the manufacture of leases and microscopes, eye glasses, all sorts of apecial things, and when I say in this letter that you have here, that I found Rochester right away a fine place in whieh to live, the fact that it WPLP a cluster of speoialited industrisrr with extremely interesting people of a scholarly bent at the heads of these induetries made it very pleaeaat and easy to get along with scientific work in the midst of a ccwaunitJr that appreeiatd net only the Mediate mientifie applications, but also the huasrdtarian and cultural sideg R Chester developed, and still had when I was there, a big clething id-atry, lots of specialised machinery* relatively slnall machinery, but there was a wonderful plant for making; sterillsars, the Castle Company+ 1's 0 t, 'p Then in the early 18808, Hr. Eastman moved into that region. About the 8me year I vas born, I think he either invented the Kodak, or began to build the Kadirk plant, and that became the rain industry of Rochester under Xr. Easbn who was there certaknly from th6 early 1880s unt3.J. his dearth in 1932. You can't understand the development of Rochester unless you understand the effect Nr. Eastanan had on it, not only by his enormous philanthropical gifts, but his interests in the cultural life of the city. He gave large sums of money to institutions in Rochester and ta the Massachusetts Institute of Technology where for years he was known as Vr, Wth" before his name vas di8c)os.d a8 the giver of huge SUIS to H.19T. It is said that he gavo away altogethep about a hundred

Page  237237 millionbollers, and in doing so) he, bui the Eastman School of Xusic, as it was called, to wtiich he brought as a director, Hgxsrd Hanson, an origiw3 con- poser of nodern music, and . Eastnan had visiting conductor8 thereachgene GQGSWS, I think, was one uame, and there were a number of others. Mr. Eastman fostered a Technological Institute in Rochester and built there also one of his early dental clinics* He stmehow or other got interested in dentistry through a very remarkable practicing dentist and a political denkist of great power named Harvey Jo Burkhart, clinics was the Dental Clinic of Rochesterk The fact tbat the Dental Clinic of Rochester was there before the medical schoolwas thought of had a great deal of influence OQ the raedfical school which was called f rosa t he start the Universit of Rochester School of cine and Dentistry. I think one of Fir. Eastnan*s first dental ''11 cane back to that side of it later bt?~cause a very douhle jointed name like that w as the basis of 8 split in ideas betueera Dr+ Whipple and Dr, Burkhart and even people in the city, It wae also the ocoasion of sw division within our faculty, Also in bchaster there were very fine men of br ad iaterest. Mr. Eastmanst s physician was Dr, Eklward W. Mulligan, a big, gaunt man who rather terrified people until you got to know hia. Re was a great power in the town and watched over what went on at the hospitals, what the Cit Health Departaent was doingo 8em8 the medical conscience of the place mbst %~ConspiCUOUSly, He was supported by a close Mend of his named Jose@ Roby. There ware ether physician in the twn that I get to know who were high minded men of considerable ability. Y Dr, Albert gBiser. Albgrt Kaiser was one of the best sf the lot. He was a pediatrician with a great public spirit that so nany pediatricians have, and I think he became Health

Page  238238 Officer of Rochester after Dr. Goler's death, though Itla ast sure about that. Then a lapan in the trustees wae Mr. Edward Minor, a very wealthy man, who uaa a book collectw and whose chief interastwas in all the original and early work8 en yellow fevero For instance, he gave me an original edition of Baaumo$Qts classic en the 1 He collected not only in that freld but other booksa gastric juices, the Alexis Bto Martin experiments, and Mr, Minor ad Firs. Minor had greups of fee around them and Dro.. . 190, I mentioned his uame a moment ago. Mulligan-Ars. Elulligan had o great big house, and they used to have, a real, old, Victorian type of salon, Once a week people would cane there for tea about four (bfclock, and yeutd have a talk on some sensible subject, @r some significant subject, It was not duet chitrckat, They really put on a ]dud of salon that s~lrrjtimea I had seen in New Orleaxs with Grace King and 8088 of the @themo Always there were good things going on in ReChester in music and lecturesd and the town was visited by a great many people. I suppose Mr. Eashants connectisq-s - were all ever the world, so it was surprising to me, and to all ef us, I think* to find in the upper berder of Hew Yvrk, a rather isol#~oo,.~he phone rang7 You were commenting on the way the town was erganised-a =reins in terns of interests, clubs and sa en. I asntt exactly an wgani.aatien of the tow% It vas sgnething natural and ti. indigeneas in the spirit that they had and which brought them tegether. They had a great many clubso The sense I got was that they were serietvrly interested, without being mushy abeut itJ in cegaplunity welfare, and perhaps appreciation

Page  239239 of that element in the populatim probably derived, in the first instamce,froar Dr. Color, the health officer, and Dr. Rhees, the President of the University, and thenMr. Eastman, but I only got to know HF. Eastman sonsWtrat nuch latere I)r, Geler is worth a vignetto. Dr. Goler was am of the first pigoreus health officers in the United States, in my opinion, and ha belongs in the eategories ef George Ce Shattuck and Charles V. Chapin-these men vhe ware innovators and absolxatew Independent of politics, courageous, thoughtftiL$ energetic, tireless in doing what they thought was the right thing to de and willing te bsth aecept and suggest bow ideas and new undertakings. Dro Goler survived practically all the palithal changes in Rocheater over a period of maybe forty years before I get tbre. They couldn*t get rid of him because he always had aupport for auythiap that wdw going @ne He had some very severe t-s to deal with in the earlier dayspcan epidemic of mall poxs an epidemic of fatal ocarlet fever. He had te mako all sorts of hprovi#ations to build up his hedth deparhent and under saroll appropriationrr. I don't thiuk he ever gof froa the city very much nmey far his work. When I got them, he had a small laboratory, but big ideas about that laberatory and abgut hospitaliaatioao medical school, if it could and wanted to, could combine with the City in activities of medical cam so far as hospitalization is concerned, by having a Hunicipal Hospital on the grouads with the Strong Mearorial Hospital, They had different administrative supervision, or different superintendenta,, In the case of the Rochester Health Bureau Laboratwies, he was glad to turn it all mer to the medical school, and it came into my Laboratory of Bacteriology right frea the start. Did I talk about thi8 once before? It was his conception that the z18w

Page  240240 Well, Dr, Goler just gave me his complete confidence and made such arrange- aents that it was possible for me to engage people to work in the laboratories and to discharge thea, if I tbought it nece88ary. AB a matter of fa, I don't recall any changes in personnel. Sone of thoee people who came in to work with we rewained my friends after I left Rochester. I saw one of them not long ago who used to make a9diab#rse Josephine Mikletisch. The qualificatiorra of these people were left to my judgment and in the rsseament Iuas nemr bothered with Civil Service forens and the rigamrole that often goes with a municipal eater- prise* and that Laboratory grew to be very largeo It took in all the health examinations of a laboratory nature from excretions, blood cultures, and throat cultures, surveys of all ldnds for bacterial lnfeckion, the water and milk supervisioa and lota of miscellaneous examinations. How did you take to the laboratory largely staffed with women technicians? was novel. This Yes, they were mea technicisraee Miss Heater A. Austin waa head sero- r logioal work where blb were doirPg Waasemn tests by the thousand A nan was in charge @f the water and milk, and his wife worked with him. We had marry wQIlCen on the staff all the 'sq through. Theywere good, .L There's just this cmuent in one of the letters-What do you think of women workers in the laborsrtorvln Ysu inherited a health bureauma fear female health bureau. 7 * I took them on, andam Austin was om of them, +hu sure. @IO'S that letter to? This ie to your sister, -

Page  241They worked Just the way men would work, aud they worked Just the way a physician would work, We didn't have-as I recall it, we never had B time punch card systes, They came early and stayed late, Did the possibllltv of lnereasing the Public Health Laborato~occur not to by- pass Albaly, but so that y@u wouldart have to send specimens eta to Albas Hiss Austin, I believe, uas sent down to the Laboratom at Albany. So that she could do this work locally4 That was the policy of the Albany State Laboratory4 'bey had no ambition to take mer the Job8 for the nanicpalltieso The only difficulty that I rmemn ber la developing that work from a public relations side WWJ that sane doctor8 with verted interests in laboratories, elthar their own, or group laboratories, had a feeling that the scheol waa doing this free for the city and not chareng the patient aaythlng, and that this 10.6 iaterferlng with the emoluments that physiclaas had a right to expet, That didn't bother u8 very nuch btacoaae fbe Monroe County Medical Soeiety WPIP one of the best, most liberal minded of ariy that Ifre known about, except perhap the hdical Society of Maryland in Balti- more. They didn't interferewith w the way the Wew York Bounty Medical Society tried to interfere with the Wew York Hospital and the Cornell Medical School when I went down there, general point of rieu that ?'-re been trgfng to attribute to the citizens of the town who were not in medicine, t I At Rochester, I think the physicians bad the same .b This grew to be P very large practice, 80 to speak, because therewere many thousands of specimens, and behind every speci- men there is a patient, as a rule, and that patieat is anxious to know what it

Page  242is all about, wbat 28 found, and the doctor8 are pressing to get answers be- cause their actions in treating the patient depended a good deal on what the laboratory foundo Inreporting the findings to the doctors, and sometimes to the people, oecasionally you have to do a little missionary education because they don't always understand. For example) I told a doctor one day that the specben of sputum that he'd sent to me contained a pnemococcus. He said, "It can't be, My patient hasn't got pneu~~onia.~ Well, his patient bad pnemococd laryngitis, and of courae that comes from the larym up into the sputum. Just because there wasn't any pneumonia he thought we must be wrongo That eort of thing happened over and mer again. Every naw and then they had an outbreak of a disease that w as puz,zling, one time I remember scarlet fever was troubleSc3Pe, but what put the great burden on w, which I did not work out properly, was an outbreak of what we now know am paittacosis. The people who had these little love birds and kissed them got infected with what we know now is 8 virus, but when I worked on it, and these people in pet shops were getting this disease and the people in the town were getting it, I found what had been re- ported before, a paratyphoid organism. my friend, Dr. Rivers at the Rockefeller Institute, really worked out psittacosis virus o It was call parrot fever at that time. I didntt go any further than that, but This letter indicates that you no 8oomr brought the Public Health Laboratories into the general bacteriology laboratorier, than you had a diphtheria outbreak in 0ne school-this is the sort of thing that would come ia-snd a typhoid outbreak in a state hoflpital. Thia was the kind of thing that would come in-mddenlike,, Oh yes, you ha o be ready to do almost auybhing. At that time tulardat * I

Page  243243 was a COIB~I~O~ disease in rabbits in the regiob TUX emia ia corrrslunicable from the rabbit pus, if you get it on your hands, Every Saturday I can recall hunters would go out, and then thqtd hear about tularemia, and they hew that I was around$ Qr that my laboratory would tell them whether these rabbits were safe to handle. Sometimes by late Saturday afternoon sry laboratory table was just stacked with dead rabbits--. lot of work to do. + Another area that the Health Bureau Laboratory took me into was medicolegal work, I got to know the Chief of Police,, bvaaaugh was a fair haired, big Irishman with a tenor type of a voice, He had no meam at all for identiwing spots that fight be blood, and if they were blood, whether human blood orbaimal blood, so I used to work with him and work out hia case8 for hias. I did a goodnauy until I had sop8 experience$ with the legal frensy and to me reprehensible behavior of district attorneys prosecuting so888 suspect and who in my opinion were not after the truth, but were after winning a cwe. They would take me on the stand, and both the prosecutor and the defense weuld slake life so miserable that I didnlt want to do it after a while. Do pou want an annecdote about that? Once at Canandaigus I was an apart witness on the examination of some blood and hair that had been serazped off the fender of an autgaobile that had killed 8 man. The district attorney got veryexcited about it. I was sitting at a little table underneath the judge's stand almost, and this lawyer gave me the best example f legal irenay that could be turned on and off that 1lve ever 0 9

Page  244seen. He started pacing around the room shaking his hand at the jury saying that "this cruel bootlegger hemn-he had no business saying "bootlegger" because he didn't know it--"has killed a bay who is the only support of an aging mother." He kept getting closer and closer to mec We had been taJ.Wug about these blood staina, and the defense witness was on the stand, I was sitting belowr He kept getting closer and closer to me, crying before the jury and of course poisoning their minds. that 18, trying to think about?" As he passed my table, he said to me,What is that word It was all of a sudden-like that. As he came around again, I said,"Hemosiderin crystalsew He shook his finger at the witness on the stand for the accused and said, What are hemosiderin crystals?@, and then he made a big fuss about thato After a while at that, I told Chief Kavanaugh I didn't want to do anymore, but that I would help him in any way I could, about lawyerst they have a pattsern-that is, these criminal lawyers have a pattern, so one day the chief asked me to help hiht outo He;d had a lot of sooty olothes that had been pulled out fraa a chimney flue in a room where a man had I found out then another thing r 4 been killed, and there -8 a queation 88 to diether there was human blood OR them or not, I told the chief that I was not going to do e work, but that if he would send sonebody up from his laboratories, I would try to help him find out, so he sent up to ne an expert on patrolem products, This man kneu nothing about exmining blood stains, but I knew the lawyer whoms going to defend this accused person, end Itd been-excuse me again, Ehe phone rang again7 - 4 We were in the midst of that.... Turn this off a minute,,

Page  245We were in the midst of a trial. He sent this petroleum cherdst up, and, a8 I say, I knew the pattern that So we the defending lawyer would take in cross-examining this expert Witmss. piled the dirty and bloody clothes on a table in the middle of my laboratory, and 1 walked all around the room for two or three hours telling this man what to do in the order in which I thought herd be qaiased, human blood, and there are lots of things you have to not getting contaminationts a8 you haye it, About a week later this man went on tb stand and qualified as an expert, and then the defense lawyer took after hira. He caw off with very greet success, and he told me afterwards,"noctor, it was just like turning over the leaves of my notebook." It turued out to be o to be sure that you're bll Q "his wa8 an utterly untutored imunologist who only had to be told haw to answer the questions of a lawyer, if you could guess what he was going to rrsk ahead of time Well, I didn't do that any more, but I would help by indirect ways. n Md you meet Calvin Goddard? Oh yes, I know Calvin Goddard froa a leng the. How doe8 he cane into this at Rochester? The Scientific Crhe Detection Laboratory. He was In Chicage,, That's righto 8 I knew Geddard from a long tineo He vas a great ballistics experto He's the one who solved the Valentine murders. He was a colonel in the Amy; as a

Page  246246 matter of fact, he was the head of the Amy Historical Unit just after Colonel Joseph H. HcHinch. Calvin Ooddard died a feu pars ago. I kaa hini before, He didn't come into this particular situation+ They offered-well, you didn't want to particfpeb any more, but there was an Asaociation if the Chiefs of POliCeo I\ I was a member of the International Asrociation of the Chiefs of Police, I carried a ticket for P long timeo men they exp lained to you at Johns Hopkins that you would have at Rochester a rich variety of 80u~ee material, you never anticipated this sort of thing, id Wa, I never anticipated that I would be into this, be doing work in this for the police, bat ites a routinsp immunological exercise to be able to dis- tinguish-as a matter of fact, I go back to Joseph Jones again because his description of the malarial parasite, 1876, is published in the account of a murder trial in Louisiana, near Donaldsonville, a man named Narciase Arriet.uK was killed by being hit on the head by those big weights that are used in a grocery store, and he bled on the mahogarrg table there and on his clot. My grandfather, the Health Officer for Louisiana, Joseph Jones, was sent pieces I of slivers d bloody wood and pieces of wool cloth cut from the shirt of a kgro uho had been suspected of the murder, and he said in his report thag this was not only human blood, and he described why he knew that it was human blood, net frolr htunologieal tests, but the blood corpuscles were alike in sice and shape 88 those he had seen in Philadelpbis, He had written a Mg monograph on the mammalian corpuscle^. He said further that it was also the blood of a asan

Page  247247 suffering from interasittent fever, and he described what undoubtedly, in my opinion, are malaria parasites inthose red cells, 80 again I go back to my grandparental influel~e. This kind of thing was all in he 883118 line, How did Goler feel about the service-the Public Health Laboratory in this kind of operation? Dr. Goler was in favor of doing this kirrd of thinge In fact, he left me alone. He not only didnrt question it, but he didn*t try to protect me from myself which I wiah somebody had done9 You get into all odta of thingso You see, the populace call bacteria "bugs", and ORB of the jobs I had to do was go 5 4 into an apartment, where for some reason or other, tihere was a sudden develop- ment of little bits of beetles, little bits ofthinga, the size of pepper grains, thousands and thousands of them that came out of the weodwark and dropped into the bath tub and on the bed. I was a bacterqdsgist I nuat know all about "bugsa and they called me in. There waa a young couple in there, So knowing that 'I 'J Another wae a case of a wanan who didn't care ery much for her husband 80 i she got two horned toads-you knew, these little, dry frogs frosn Arizom, and she had one on each shoulder 11 the ti= so that she could not be embraced. I was called in to take those aronstera amy. +l I kept them in the laboratory for a while. There is more than meets the eye in bacteriology. Indeed them ise one of the CoaPJequences of th introduction of the Publie Health Laboratorywas the developaent of the New Pork State Association of Public Health I Laboratories. Pe8* Well, I knew Dro A. Be Wadsworth, the head of the laboratory, and I knew Mias Mary Kirkbride, his first assistant, and I told you that after I came

Page  248248 back from abroad in 1924, the first thing I did was to go over and work on the Ramon test in that laboratory. I knew that Ih.. Wadmorth had been thinking for some time that they ought to have some meeting or organiaation of the people who had laboratories in Syracuae, Albany, aside from the state laboratory, Buffalo, Rochester, and a good laany hospitals had good laboratories. an organisation and they had at least one meting a year in Albany. association is still going after all that the. This grew up into This I had an invitation to the meeting that went on last week. *,)Q an emeritus member of it mu. Mdnlt they have periodic difficulties before the state legislature-the "Battle of Albany of 1932t1--the medical committee. You mean, the antivivisectionists? Yes, they had a very violent period of I thought it was a little antivivisection agitation in plew Pork. Was it 19321 earlier. Somehow or other I was lllade chairman of the medical cauuuittee to oppose these people. They hac\ a big hearing in Albany to which I went. I went thmugh the usual effort as Dr. Met did. He led opposition to the autivivi- section group in Washington fn the early 1900ao There was nuch more than the hearing in Alkiany because it was necessary to find out wh~ were iaaportaat in controlling the vos of the memh s of the legislature, the Senate and the House. %aims the first time I had ever seen the operation of a local political ring under a man who was a good citieen, but not really very much educated, and this was the Republican Party of Monroe County. local political organization UBS a plumber, aad I remeaber going down to he Genesee Rotel, I thinka to h8V6 a neetiag to consider this vivisection problen. The row was alldraped-a big room draped with heavy brown curtainso auld see the people who were moving behind the arras. 4 The head of that P You Here ~a!s this pluraber

Page  249249 sitting at a big desk, and the legislators were sitting around on little, fllmsy, pianfc-type chairs. man that guinea pigs were needed, for example, to titrate, or find the strength of diphtheria toxin. He s#t)d-I didn't know that he was goiug to say this, but he said,"Oh, I understand that. My child was saved by antitoxin, Yon say that it wa8 measured against guinea pigslW I cam in to that, and somehow or other explained to this e? ' I said,%s," and told him a little about it, so he turned to them legis- lators, and he practically said,KWell, boys, wetre going to support this Docl" That's what they did. Then the next one--the awement got into a little trouble in the Senate, I think, in Albany, and we found that there was a man la Buffalo whowas a fancier of certain kinds of doga, and through that there wus an approach to himo He influenced a vote or two, so we came out all righto but that agitation, a8 you know, is going OR at present, and fortunately I haven't had to bother with it any moree DerelopinR ernassociation in a 8enm puts 8 floor of standards for the operation of public health laboratorieso The Public Health Laboratcries weren't in this antivivisectionist thing, This was state wlde medical aehools and everything elseg The correspondence shows that it comes from all directiow-yea but part of the prowing knowledge in the state is through the developnent of associations-frm Wadsworth to William He Park to JI son on soil bacteriology-all these people and others were very much interested in a floor for standards in their laboratory for laboratoz service, and a8 a corollary to that the necessity for experimental. ani1aal.8~ I know that the volume of work in the Public Health Laboratories wrtremendoua.

Page  250 Yes, the voltme grew a great deal-went up into the thousands and thousands of testa. What the testis is still to be detemined because you say that you're goirg to do one bat for syphilis and one blood specimen, but you might have to make six, or eight manipulations of the specimenr Some peo call this specimen tests, and 80me people put down all the things they do, but we gave them specimens and then when it was a very difficult procedure, you could separate the teatso The work is far more than the thousands of instances that are in the reports. Yes, did the immunological manual corn. out of this kind of work? The om I showed you? The one published by a comittee--ohi I don% have it here which is one of the bad reason8 fer not leaving - that room,.b small publication* a nanual for tests, I gtlesse ,-l Everybody ha a manual. I brq!g@t you the one I used for my cla88, There are pnblished manuals, but the published nand8 are rather compronire editions. They tryko suit everybody, whereat3 lgost of the cooks have some way of doing it that they prefer, so you generally write your OM manual with the ninor variaw tions either changed to fit a situation, or to fit in xith supply, or to fit in with aonsy, or to fit in with your preferences, There are always a couple of ways oing something. 0 I was thinki~mall publicatAon which 1'11 show you tomorrow, I dontt remember its preeiee name. but later Dr. hmes A* Kennedi.... Jim Kennedy? Jim Kennedy tried te get a remiaim accepted, but it was an effort to standard-

Page  251251 ise t88tsl and $hare them generallg. That was going on all the time too because new tests w being devised A \ and new variationa were cawing oute %'s customary to s#3 'armnd specimens that are unknown and let another mn try to Bee what answer he gets. c1 8bndorrBzeation gaes on all the time. I want to tell you about Mr. Eastanants health aervics for the emplagees at Kodak, but I don't know whether you want to go inte that now or not. There may be other things about the Public Health Laboratory-there are a lotof SVhOhS e them- I hope Inve brought it along. Here*8 the original staff and the way in which it grew. l I This is 1932--thia, 18 near the en+ . yes, the origal staff is listed at the top. Oh yeao Hiss Myers married the man who get to be in charge of the water and the milka Laboratory Technicians" because I looked for intelligence, health, strength and affability In these people, Some of these were visitorso I called myself the "Ziegfield of They were all good looking girlso 'heywere strong aad well, and there were a great many marriage6 in this group. They don*% show up here as Mrs, but marriage became 80 common in our amiable surroundings that of the ladies who visited for a few weeks, one of them wrote me she had been there for two woeka and hadntt been married yeto Mdspuzsles that led to soimtific exploration grew out of the Public Health Laboratories? Oh pd)) we published papers ecca~ionally~ Ws. Priscilla Cdngs got to

Page  252be an expert on streptococci in conneasion with pediatric3 troubles.. I think that there were a good many dnor papers-I forget them ROW+ titles, but I know that there were a good maw publicatlow, and these people would give papers-a lot of thea weren't published-at the meetings of the I dontt remenber laboratory associatione Were you able to intrigue, itlsrite, otherwise corral doctors in the ccmumrilty to come in and work in the laberatoe I don't think I cared to try to do that. I had lots of relations with docters, but--well# probably if I told the truth, I didn't want them te be areuad in that capacityo Itwaa running ansroved aeryice for them. I thought I I used to go to their aeetings in the Monroe County bdical Seciety. I hrew practically all of t Let 6 turn to.... Are you watching the time, because they told me that Dyer - Dr. Rolla Dyer7 - would be there until three clock^ Youwant to go upstairs? It's ten minutes to three. We'll stop and cae bek c

Page  253253 Well.. 0 0 - I want to get you an ash try. That was on the machineo In a apeach you me at 8 neeting of the City Club in Bochester in damam 23, 1960, yeu indicated that soon after you arrived in Rochester, you becanae COR- nected informally with the development under Dr. Williaa A. Sawyer of the aedical service for the employees of the Easban Kodgk Cm-9, and that this service was m0re than a routine establishment for industrial medicined another illustration of the public-llliaded nature of the people in Rochester, this is a god example. I thought that perhaps you'd tell me something of this It stenuned reaJly from the influence of Mre Eastman because #ro Eastman early set up two thjngs of unusual character at that the for the beneflt of c his elaployees. He gave them a share in the profits of the coinpany8 and they would get sort of dividends on the increase in the value of the products, and he had a veryleyal group of stme ten thousand employees out there at the plant. I don't think he ever had a 8tri.kee to speak, and at the same the, he set up on the advice possibly of Dro Goler, That's part of his social miridedmss, so possibly of Dr. Row, or Dr. Kaiser, a medical health service for his einployeeao Ha had in charge of that medical service a Dr. Sauger whose first name I have forgotten,, William Sawyero William Sawyer was about my age, and we had maw common intamsts in the

Page  254infectiow that were prevalent, the respiratory infections and whatnot among those people, They were cared for by Sawyer in dispensaries and some hame visits in the manner of, say, the British Health Service, or later day health service for populatious of people, carefally not only when they were sick* but in appllcatiow of preventive medicine, in sanitation. The conditions under which theywere working were carefully regulated 10 that their health uouldn't be damaged any more than was They didn't have to pay, and they uere watched very maybe unavoidable in sane cams, when theyuere exposed to either fumes, or teaperatarea, or conditions of confinement which IIU mention in ware part af the process of manufacture, semis%. lim Kith Mr. %stmanta ideas of a dental clinic, of doing things for groups This was a very enlightened nedical It included also preventive, prophylatic deltistry and was quite in C 4 of people. Mr. Eastman didn't seem to concern himself directly with individuals. He and populations rather than for individuals, but he understood that the individ- uals canposed the gro pa, and, of course) he cared for the- This was a broadc rinded, social under$aking and very well done, I thought. J When I mentiomd confinement, Ims thinklng at that lament of the men and women wbo had to work all day long, or at least an eight hour day, in practically total darkness in rooms thatwere not noiay and rather oppressively quiete I used to think it was a sort of solitary confinement, except that there were many people there. 'tm talking about the rooms in which, for instance, all the sensitired photographic printing paper was madep They handle that In the opr I to package it, but it waa in rooms dW.3- lighted with deep red colored lamps. They managed that so that those people didn't become annoyed by their isolation

Page  255and were not hurt by it in any way that I could see. I think Drr Sawger used to rewove thea if he saw anybhing like claustrophobia, or the 88nse of isolation overtaking them, That w88 part of the work produds involved the use of laally poi8~mus thilySs like the silver salts that they used In the emulsions. At the same the out there at the Kodak plant a greaL many people were developing the Eastman organic chemical production, They had an enormus laboratory for lnakiag and synthesizing organic cheraicals, iadeed, one of the mea, Dr, Ham Clark, whowas in charge of that work for a while was the greatest erganic chemist in the country, He became Professor of Organic Chenistry at Columbia and later at Yale, so that it was a ve manufacturing plat frtll of experinents in social undertakings and a concern for people, and of course btaan photegraphic interesting k This is the first time you wet Marion Fol~m0 I suppoae soe I don't remember the first time I met Hr. Folso~~ He wasl a Mrector of the Eastmaa Kodak Companyp not a trustee of Rochester University at tht time, I don't think. I got to like be Farion Folsom frm the start. Hela very qulet and reserved. Although born in Georgia he was rather a Hew Englander type. He was absolutely forthright and thoughtfult didn't say much, but what he said meant a great deal. I ktmw Mr, Foleon in hie office. I didntt have any social, or personal contact with him to speak of at that tiae. A8 P matter of fact, even when be vaa Secretary of Eealth, Education, arad Welfare in Washington, I never saw Nm outside of the office. For sme reason, or other I don't know, he rather lived a secluded life both in Rochester and hero. Thirr was agda another sacample of what forward thinkhg ~len would do in that tmne - - -

Page  2562% Yes* Synlptornatic of the placeo Yes, this waa characteristic of it. Well, so wuch of what a sohool is a becwres is related to the man who heads it up. He gives it sarehrw, or in some way an atnosphere, a tone, and this brings ,us to the President, Dr. Rush Rheea. about himo He was the leader bra, a somewhat older man than those in this group, but with a large experience. Rhees of Rochester (New Pork, 1946) explores the e8sence of a man witbut coming to a conclusion, and so any illmina- I don't know how you want to talk The book you let me read rJohn - R. Slater, 30u - ia a good one in the sense that it tion you can give about hi^ would be helpfbl because after all, he did largely set the tonel I think thatEs the way to expresr it. Dr. Rheea ua8 om of the wisest educational adarinistratsrs that I ever met. He'd been president of the University of Rochester for perhaps fifteen, or twent;v years when this school - began, and he had liberaliaed a rather mrrw itwtitutiono Rochester waa founded, I think, in about 1850, and the University had sme rather restrfctive Methodist type of influence on it, Dr* Rhees had much broader experiences and uplifted the place and liberalized it, fa addition, he had very close assaciatisn with Mr. George Eastman. H aa proud of the Eastanan Kodak Company and was no doubt irtc. flueneed by Mr, Eastman's large ideas, Typically, like a good many in + Rochester, he una devoted to his city and the best things, aud when you spoke of his being aleader in the rmedical schoolrs development, pu used the eapression %et the tone" which I think is a very good one.

Page  257257 Dr. Rhees did not pretend to know anything specifically ecientific about medicine, or pathology, as I recall it, He could talk with you absut what you wanted to de and how you were going to teach, the philosophical aspect8 of it, but he didn't bother at the start to have much to say about the actual effects of actilpns that were dorm, However, he was responsible for toking fire at the idea suggested perhaps by Mr. Eastman and perhaps by hiamelf-I don't really know the origin of the proJect for the school, but Dr. Rheea took the leader- ship, bad the first dealing withMr. Abraham Flexner and was a sharp bargiaiwr because he got out of Abraham Flexaer and the Rockefeller Foundation a rillion or so Bpore than Mr. Flexner intended to giver matched also, s@ that they had a pretty strong line up against any withholding, Mr. staran wanted his money They had to overcome parochialism in medical eduoational ideas at the time, There was a medical school at Buffalo, one at Syracuse, and all the great wdical esntera at New York, arid why on eart start another medical school in Rooheater in the middle of that? New York, two hundred or nore miles away frola the campus in Ithaca. T4$ waa a point that Dr. Rhees, Ma Eastaaan, and even the mat of us had to examine, and either accept, or oppose0 I wondered myaelfa-wby- put another medical school up in that place where there was no particular outstanding clitiieal facilltice? us at first so well paid from their employment that there woad net be occasion for a great deal of indigent patronage of the hospital and sahool, Indigent patronage is a very important thing for material, if Io8y use a crude term, from which young redfed. students and pung tors are trained. I don't mean aw carelessj, losscs experimentation but until later, as it was at New Yorh it v s not posstble to ex8d.m the pay patient, so to apeak, in the presence of 4 Cornell had a mcsdfca3. eehool with a campu8 in i It us@ not a medical center. It had a populatisn which looked to 4 A 9

Page  258groups of people as you could examine th 258 indigent, Rochester looked to me oh us a8 a place where there wouldntt be the usud. amount of opportunity for seeing disease among people whe cod. be studied very thoroughly withmt any objection on their part, Dro Rhees settled hat to his own satlsfaction. He mast have been very persuasive because he persuaded Dr. Whippla to come on as Dean at a the when Dr, Uhipple was well set at he University of California as a Dean atd a8 the head of the Hooper Foundation and didn*t want to touch this Rochester job at flrst. Dr. Rhees went out there and debmined to stay uutil he succeeded in persuading Dr, Whippla to come to Rechester as Dean, and in persuading him he gave him life tenure in the job, so to speak, and Imperial power over his faculty and school that few deans have enjoyed. Dr, Whipple exercised that power In a very thoughtful, but undoubtedly firm manner. Dr, Ftheer was very close to the schoolo Ho had a part in the building planso He sanctioned what was pleasing to Mr. Eadltxaan as it was to the parsimonious New Hampshire product- where was Whipple from? 9t I Vermont OF New Hampshire? i New Hampshire product that Dr* Whipple was in approving the planar of the building, the style of the b ilding and all of which it was made, so that it turned out to be a structure thatwe called "early penitentiq style" of architecture. but sanded brick walls inside, TherNde bare ceatent floors which were finally oiled with linseed oil, All the money was spmt 011 equipent aad roua to work in which was wisa, but aesthetics were not respected especially. Hr. stman like that. 4 i; It was very bare. There was hardly auy plaster anywhere in it, P d The rest of us thought it waa a little bit erudce at first, but you I

Page  259259 soou apprhciate the ad ntages you have Pram working in a paace where there was really nociey for the work. Well, Dro Rhees kept in teach with all of that. We used ta, talk with him about plans, floor plane evellr-not in relation to the scientific uork going on in them, but ia relation to living a quarterslt k orking in the + Then Dr. Rhees was the presiding officer most of the time at the faculty meetingse The faculty was called n'fhe Advisory Board" which is a tern which I think Dr. Whipple gave it, instead of giving it a more executive type of title. We got along very well in the Aclvisory Board, talked about the plans of the place, the educational outlook and the indepndent projects thatwe were gelng to uniertake. I think that most of' us knew more medical schools than we had come from. All of us had been to scientific meetings, ever went around the country looking at other medical schools to see what could be done, We knew enough, and we kne ore or less whatue wanted to try to de. Dr, Rhees encouraged the individual expressitbns; of the members of this Advisory B08rde I don't recall that we 9 He was a man of great tact, and I rsJaeerber(lrwell, I think the best example of his tactfulness came up about the second year of OW progress in the school. We all had budgets for our parbents. I think mine was about twenty thousand dollars a year, departraents spend that budgeted money without his approval. We used to have to go down to his office and talk to his secretary about our wish to buya we'll aay8 a hundred test tubes. lhants OfficJea including plyself used to meet on the enclosed fire stairs and talk these things over. We worked ourselves almost to a revolationarg pitcho We said that i Sme were MoreI but Dr. Whipple didn't let the head8 of the Every little amount had to be passed on by the It got 150 tightly controlled that several nenbers of the faculty t

Page  260260 couldntt have OUT budgets, the school couldnft have the Dean almo8t. were going %e have a show down faculty raeeting in front of Dr. Whipple and Dr. Rheea,, Dr. Rhees had talked to me and others about its He knew what was afoot, so that day he said,Ww, gentlemen, we are met to 8ee whether we can devise some plan by which the Dean's Office can be relieved of a great deal of administrative work in dealing with the purchase of supplies, aaals, and things like that far the different departnents. Hwe you any suggestions?@ So we B 0 Somsbhdy said imediately,"Yes~ give us control of our bndgetr.w Dr. Whipple probably knew that he had to give way too. Dre Rheee said, Letts 888 if it s acceptable to the Dean." . "That's a very interesting idea. 0 He asked him, and so we got our budgets through that businem, but we were ready to blow the place up almosts Hews a very approachable manesot exactly jocular, or familiar, but dignified. Dr Rhees did a hundred things like thatr Ye knew what was ping orb Yes, he knew uhatwas going on in the schoolo He knew what was going on in the politics of the towno He knew what was going on in the field of educatiion in the countryo He was, I think, a very wise nan. That's a very nics me best out of a groupo shrewd, but that was the ma3 Yes, his timing was good. I don't know that any of us PO him wise to it, but he knew aonething was brewing* i Well, another ldrd of thing that he and Whipple and the rest of then did is illustrated by a very small pointo There were firm and rigid, convincing opinions on large matters of education, ~uetll say, or of activities of one kind

Page  261261 or another, but not too much concern with the smaller matters. quite willing to watch things and take actions according to the way they were turning out of their ow good one, wadi when that place was built there were grasr plata betweea big wings of tha building and around the wings and the corners* A natural desire of a builder would be to go and lay pahent walks by some arbitrary soheme right away, but Dr. whipple didn't put down tho80 walks right away. He let it go to 808 which paths would be stamped down by studeats and others, and then he laid a walk there. That's a good way to doe Dre Whipple was ccerd. An exawtpls of tN8, and I@ve always thought a da 4 That went on through the school a good deal in our relations with the students and others, have been silly, it was so much more interesting and perpsansali to let them have some e xpressirn and then build mn that. Instead of trying to force them to do something that would What role, if any, did Dr, bees play in the developmat of the Depart;se nt of Bact eriologg? Dre Rheee waa happy to have the Health Bureau Laboratory work done theree He could hare made that more diffisult by saying that one of his profem~ora ought not to give half mr mare of his time to the service of the City becawo Dr. Bees wa8 like a good many other uaiversity officials whs very wisely say that ordinary eerviw, either la the care of patients, or in the laboratory services, is not a f'uactbn of the university, not a predoginzrnt function, but he didn't oppose at all the developments that went trn in the Department of Bacteriology uith the Health Bureau Laboratory*

Page  262262 He was interested in the sides of bacteriology that had to do with people rather than in the biology of bacteria, vent Dr. Bbees andMr. 3astman from ha~ng colds; make swab8 of their throata, grow the organisms a k8 a vaccine out of 6. Dr, Rhees was interested in the hman applications of the aubjeet. He was interested in the q work of the students, and wa dfscus8ed the progress the classtm were dng at tines, He wa8 net a man who wa8 Just impressed by AB0 markse He was after intellectual contente It a very happys pleasant, easy relation. I used to make vaccines to try te pre- 44 4- P ty of tho On the saeot of colds, I ham a Dr. Rheers about a chlorine applicatar, a Hr. Turner, I believe. chango of correspondence you hadwith _T Turner? or the treataaent of dogs suffering with distemper. a small group of and there was the question of what to do about it, but in writing t- Dro Rhees asked you to investi.ate Sa Diehl a University of Minnesota on the student body with reference to coldse s oxperiinents at the I Wallace and Tiernan were the raanufacturers of chlorinating apparatus for tho water sypply by whioh they put auhydrsus chlorine gas into the water and had flow asters and controls. 19208, I think-of preventing respiratory infections by the iahaljlation of chlorine gas, Dr, Mehl waa the Dean of the University of Minneseta Medical There was a phaass--sa~e time in the middle r J Schosl at Minneapolfar. who eesaned to give a boost to the sub3ecto Then there u@re same extraordinary cla9Eas for it4 I don't knew whether he published, but be wm the one cure of colds, 80 much so that Mr, Eastman became

Page  263interested and so did Dr, Rhees. Distemper is now known to be 8 virus disease with a secondary bacterial in- fection, and I don't think that apparatus did those dogs aqy goode They got an apparatus to try on Mr. Eastnan, but I don't know that UBI ever went that faro What YOU were to do was to put your head in a sack and breathe chlorine, but 1 don't think that I had to go through that, It didn't last very long. I tried it out on those dogs with distemper, I was never convinced of ito c Pow letter was to that effect, that you were not cotmiwed. Mehl did publiath an article in the AMA Journal, You reviewed that article and sent Dr, Rhees P copy of it. My reason for briwng it up was to find out from you stmething of his scientific interesta, and this episode would diaclose interest, \ He had scientific interesb, but this as a popular thing. h. Eastman was interested, and Wallace asd Tiernan were a Rochester firm, and theJr were exploiting it. A number of things that people want to exploit have bacterio- pi legical elements In them, and the problem in the laboratory is not just to be deirg service work all the time for manufacturer$. For instance, the Castle Coapany would like endless experiments on sterilization pressures and tePlpera- tares, some of which I did, Eastman K~dak Conpaw every now and than got hold of a compound thatms claimed to have str ng bacteriacidal properties, and I made 80~3 tests for them, An aaaogy is the Chief of Police-they all want help ii on something, and you scatter yourself to pieces on it, but Dr. Rhees in thi8 cagle, was, as I recall, not interested in it from a scientific view point, but from the public hurrah about it. It was a situation in a lainor way like

Page  264this krebioaen cancer cure that has been raising the devil with peepla the laat few years. en 'Piernan in his letter, and Dr., Rhees quotes his lmtter to youa said to Dr, Rhees,"I would much rather have the truth about the treabent and therefore not be led into undue expense and waste of tima in pursuing a matter whieh did not hold out any prOlaaiseat* Se Dr. Rh-8 want4 your judgnent to expler8 the Minnesota experience which y0u didb 80 that he wm interested enough to sUb 0n top of that article and ask your judgment about it, to be in I positisn te be mare helpful to Mr. Tiernan. I gather thatwas what the correspondence was about. does show interset, I asked about the role he played in the develop- ment of the Department of Bacteriology, There are some-I don't know ~sxsctly. Well, let me aav that these things are ripped out of context, They all happened at the same the, and dealing with them individually is WkQlly unreal, but in 1929, there is an offer to you from Chicage, and it has eertalLn corw sequences in the development of tlrs department. Didn't it8 respome. Dm you remember thiar? Wellr letts go tQ Chicago because this rill bait, in part, Rhees* Pes. I think in 1928, I wa8 invited to be a Visiting prsfessor at Chieago. Either the invitation was in the spring of 1929, or the fall of 1928--h not sure. - It was a summer semester at Chicageo

Page  265It must have been 192Pe Yese This is it* The correspondence begins in October of 1929, d Yes, it was the summer of 1929, that I waa a visiting proforaor at; the University of Chicagoo I went out there, lived war the uairersity, and leetured ~n basic, noMIedica1 bacteriologye 1 rau the clamr It wasn't mdical bacteriolegy, but general bacteriology, bacteriosogy ef soil,~tep., atmosphere, and metabolism of bacteria, variations, dl the basic ecientifie side of bmteria without particular relation to pathogenic actione all that summer and returned to R Chester at the etrd of that sulllllodr Inl929. I carriad that en i; A8 a eide issue before I forget this-I would like to put in here something about another activity I had out there. in Rocheater on the heat production by bacteria. calorimeter, a very sensitive thing. I had been worfdng i y awn laberatory I built a differential micro- I got it so I could measure heat, I think, If. from one microorganism, and I published a paper on that heat production by bacteria, /i5Bacterial Calorimry I1 Relation of Heat Production to Phases of Growth of Bacteria" 17 Journal of Bacteriology 123-IJ.@ (February,192917. I did the experirrent in the course of a day, we'll say, and then I made an ea- pirical equation and extrapolated to what the expected result would be in fortyeight hours and so fortho Then I did experiments at those time#)and they came out very close to the expeuted result frm calculations, and so I wrote the paper, A man replied in the Journal of Bacteriology and said that I was all wrong, @. C+ Wetze1,"A Note on the Application of Buchanan's Formula to Heat FYodaction in Bacterial Culturesn 18 Journal of Bacteriology U7 (192917. The

Page  266266 way he explained my error was to have his paper be composed of about three pages of integral equations. Well, I ha plained that I cannot understand profound mathematics, so on the side at Chicago I used to study mathematice from Friday evening until the next Monday morning, like old King David, locked up In my apartment-1 had a little tws room apartment-trying to get enough mathematics to understand what this man had said about my being wr ng, ad a little calculus, but I've already ex- + s 4 I had made the mistake-I got an instructor in mathematie8 from a Election They would give the equation that waa dealing with imagi ry kinds of things. for a circle, say that It represented 8 square, and go on frm there. This mathematics instructer couldn't see what I wanted exactly, asaticians now do it better, I wanted him to tell me how to take experimental data and put it into equations. How to handle that sort of thing was the problen, but ha gave me a great deal of work to do, was that he gave mat-I remember this problsm. noon when the sun is thirty-five degrees above the horizon, you throw a baseball into the air at two hundred feet a second8-thatts too fast, but take that--"and the shadow mf the baseball falls on the hdsphericll dome of a nerrby sbserva- toryo plot the path of the shadow when the ball has fallen for one half second. Plot the path of the shadow and the rate of the progress of the shadow across this hemispherical surface." I think maybe mathe- The thing that broke me down "At half past four in the after- That didn't help sea Isnrt it? That was no compliment to me that he did thato It was ridi- culing me. This mathematician that I had could solve that problem in a feu 1

Page  267mments because a that he has. 9e knew just what to applyo he verbiage covera up a few well known pbysioal equations Uit I didn't get to ever understand the paper that said I was mot I kept on worltfng ma that subjectO Dr. Whipple didn't interfere, but I'm sure very often he would wonder, and so did some of my friends, why I would ba interested in heat production by culturese Well, it'e a fundamental thing. Curisusly it turned out to be of interest the Roahesqqd group was studying the heat Take a ariatic nerve out of an anisal., uae i' I c' \ in other w8. Another professor in generalted by inpcilaes in the nerve. very delicate measure~aents and see what heat, is produced, and then you get some idea of the energy involved. He waa net a bacteriologist, and he didn't take any Care to keep his preparations sterile, 80 I showed hl~~ that all he wa8 measuring was the heat produced by the contaminating organisms thatwere growing en the surface of the nerve. ology entered into a whole lot of things like that. Ba teri- 4 Well, at Chicage, I finishdd the coursqland iQn back in Rochester. I hadn't been there very long before hetlident Robert M. Hutchins who used to be the Secretary of Yale UniversiOy, a very vivid sort of a person, invited we to ome back to Chicago to 8ee hin and Mr. Benton, I think, who w as the Vice Chan- cellor, to talk about a possible positien in bacteriology. Chic@@, I went to 6.e Chancellor Hotchins and Mr. F'rederie Woodwclrd. course of 1 few hours they offered me the Professorship of Bacteriology because Professor E. 0. Jordan ma about to reach the age of retirement. Well, I knew a good many of the younger men in Dro Jordan's department like IO SO Fslk and friend L. G. Taliaferro, whowas the head of parasitology, and others. So when I wen to In the They assured me that they would welcome me if I came there as Professor of Bacteri- ology, and I was on the point of saying yes, that I would be honored-well, I

Page  268268 was honored anyhow-cancl that I would be pleased to have them consider me for appointment by suboritting my name to their trustee$. About five o'clock-I r emenber now--X went to see Dr. Jordan again in his backroom in the Ricketts Laboratory, We ralked in a friendly manner becaruso Dr, Jordan, a most respected man, had taught me bacteriology way back when I was getting r ef to go to Hopkim. He had written a famous textbook, and he was known the world over for his work on the preservation of food product8- particularly awrata, and in the course of the talk, he saddetily said that he wanted me to know that the authorities of the University of Chicago wanted te keep hisl on as the titular head of the department, even though he'd have another prbfesssr with all ths responsibilities gbecawe", he sai8,"of my extensive and great influence with the food packing industry," He wa8 a great consultant for Armour, Libby, and a w le lot of others who bf\ had had problem in sterilizing ham, saussages and canned stuff of all kinds. Well, 1 knew right away that that wouldn*t be well for hirn or for ae. very respectful and fond of Dr. Jordan, but I could see only traubls in an arrangement like that whe~e nen of my--I won't say aggressive, but preasing I was qualities, would get to work under his superior status and have the responsibility for the teaching and running of the departlasnt. That would be a very unpleasant thing for both of us. There's om thing that you might clariiy. a medical school, This Offer wasn't in cennrctien with No, It waa the University Department of Bacteriology, but i as near the + Chicago University hdical School. Theybe all out thoro in a cluster, and thero are subsidiary laboratsriee in the hospital, and Rnedical students were taught

Page  269some of it in Jordanls department, matter of fact, the laboratory in which Dre Jordan's laboratory departaent wars housed was the Ricketts Labaratory. Ricketts who discovered the minute microorganism that causes typhq fever. The whole parasitology was there too. As a That's named after Dr. Hmward Taylor 5 The mioroorganiw got to be named dter his. That's e the term "rickettsia" - cases in. Well, (LB you mw it at the time would this have afforded you greater opportani, fer your own research? Pes, I wwld be head of a bigger department. I would have a much bigger budgot. I would have a different position in the acadsade world, so to speak, by being the head of P faaous well supported dopartarant in 8 famous university thatwaa far older than the few years of bchester. it until this came up. siderably greater-I think I was getting eight thousand dollars a year from Rochester, and this would have given me a great deal more. Dr. Whipple and Dr. Bheer about it. Hot rauchwss said, but theywere glad that I did not take it. I was very tempted to de The offer to me, I forget the amount, but it y88 con- I cam back and told As I said, i hook the troe in tu0 woys. I needed additional staff i nembera notably a proto~eologist and parasitologist, and I asked for Dr. Oliver R. McCoyc butthe thing that amaoed me) and I found out without asking for It, is that my salary was Iwreased. wouldn't balance. There wm more money in the bank than I could account fore I didn't say aqything about it because I know I'm not good at aritbmetic. I thought that I would wait another month, The next month the balance was even I got him right away With a good salary, equipent and everythiag, I found that out by noticing first that my bank book

Page  270larger. The bank had accumulated this excess. What they'd done at the school was increase my salary without telling =-that is, the university paid it into ay bank acceuntn They alse offered you an assistamt to take care of the Health Bureau activitias- Dr. Kennedy, Kennedy was a pupil of Ziwser. The tuot/positions I wanted, I gpiees, were the parasitologist and the assistant in the Health Bareau and in teachingo Jim Kennedy was enonously helpftal. A. Then there wBs-uell, ;Etm 16oklng at a memorandum concerning the proposal made to you by the Uaiversity of Chicage, and this is on University of Rochester stationery, their efforts to..,. What part of Rochester? This is titled Intramural Ctwrespondence. Apparently you went back and talked to President Rheee, Is that gy uiemorandum? No. reviewed by President Rhees." There are three items listed aad one of them ie a fellowship fund which will pull you into greater contact with the University of Rochester. in 1928, about curriculum changes for the undergd te 8Cho01, and you replied about studies in bioloaand in 1930, this matter canes to a heado I think this was seat to gou. It says at the botta,"This statement to be Earlier, when I asked about Dr. Rheee, he raised a question with you /L I gave courses in bacterielegy to the nndergraduake at the Uaiversity.

Page  271Bight, But you 8et up a whole separate section under Ralph P, Titsler, Yes, Titsler is in the Department of Agriculture here in Washington muo He was their bacteriologist. This proposal from Chicago made this particular idea jell plus these ether two. Another person with whom mu had to deal directly, and thie may briw U8 to the people In this photograph with greater particularity, was the Dean, Dean Whipple. You've indicated something about the Dean, President Rhees to shield himself frm unnecessary intrusions by$e ivic functions. He bargained pretty hard with I He actually said that he would have little to do with them, and President Rhees said,Weflllet the public relations of the University take care of it." r 1 I wondered in choosing (L moukof young people-arsd he was a young fellow him- self-this faculty that sat in on the growth and developaent of th I school, tihe hospitals, the relationships between the medical school ad the vari~us hospital8 which were there. continuity in your own life. be important, I don't know, but in surgerydohn Norton. Thi8 is worth a wwd. Thay*re had some I'm thinking of so1118 in particular who nay not I 1 John Morton is still up there, He s an extraordinarily good surgeon, In c1 the influences on the establishment of the school, the influence of Jehus Hopkins was possibly the predominant one. 2 'hey used to say that we were starting up another little Johns Hopkiaer there because Whlbpple and I, George Wo Corner- was Morton Hopkins? k I think SO. Pea, and Karl Ho Wilson in obstetrics were all from Hopkins, but we didn't

Page  272consc, oua 272 y imitate the Johns Hopkins. It was bred in ua by that time, rad you didn't have to think about it. of the adaainistratiou of the school. there was quite a good deal of independence in the heads af departments. used to uork together a good deal. could do in the beginning with a group like this. tb, I can remember things like this-1 had opportunities that I never had any- where else. p8.r-I could take the students to see a case, a child with diphtheria ad a membrane in the throat, We could study that bacteriologically and study diphtheria toxin which causes certain kinds of paralysis, in that hospital who had pest diphtheritic paralysis sf the uvula, the tswcCLlowing apparatus, and some other things, At the same time there was a death Pram diphtheria, and Dr, !-.hippie did the autopsy, so right there in the place there wa~1 unequalled opportunity because we were all working together and had CQ~O~ interests in subjects, presentation, and students to taka everything frm the bacteriology te the final anatomical autopsy in diphtheria. It was like walking. Dr. Whipple was the leader There wasn't any qaestion sf that, but We There was perf ctly woaderful teaching you i In a small class and with fa taking the subject of diphtheria-I believe itta ia the seeood There Y ere people Thesame thing uas done in tuberculesis. Right near the hospital there was the Monroe County Tuberculosis Sanitarium or Institution. deal of tuberculosis among people in the dispensary, people who were sick with various fonnspf tuberculosis, and there were the autopsies of tuberculosis* We could take tuberculolsis from prevention 8f tUberCulO8iS right eta thr0ugl-i to the final obsequy, There was a good That didn't happen after P while, The place got too big, classes gat too big, work in departments too big. never lost fellowship among the faculty. Everybody was too much occupied, although we The only difficulty I ever had was w%th

Page  273273 one of the profussers who was at Rochester before we came in, Professor John R. Hurlin, who is a biochemist, not a medical nuin, a nutritionist, Dr. Walter R. Bloor was a great biochemist that they brought in, and he took a position that perhape Dr. Murlia wanted to have. Dra Murlin came from a different origin than the rest of us and had different points of view, There was areurrt him at that nutrition department sort of a fence, di%erence of Views and difference of behavior. How did they react to the general title of the school-Schoql of hlicine and Dentistry? That was Dentistry was in dentistry, weren't going a compromise, but very interestingly managed by Drs Whipple. put in the title ob onsly because of Hr, Eastman's long interest + It caused a separation in the faculty until we 88w that they to run a dental school .ut them, a fact which made a more sharp difference with Mr. Ea+maafs great philanthropical, dental adviser, the mau who ran the Eastman Dental Clinic, Dr. Harvey J. Burkhart. Dr, Whipple*a %de8 was that the medical school would take a few highly qualified dentists and let them work for M,D,s, Qr evem let a man work for a Ph. D. in the dental field, evon though he wasn't a dentisto At Yale later there was such a scheano, and sometimes we tried it at Rochester by which a dentist would go back into say the second year ef the asedical school and work for an M.D., so that he could be a dentist and an M,D, There was mver even any effort made at Rochester to set up a school of practicing dentistry with chairs, drills and fillings. disturbed Dr. Burkhart, an e never ma reconciled to it, but again this bacteri- ological link which fits in with may hyphen, as I told you in the beginning, let me be pretty close to Dr. Burkhart and the dental clinic, I had a little That 41

Page  274274 rection of a laboratow down there at the h8tlaaR Dental Cliaio. I taught dental hygienirst8, these women xfio scrape teeth, and I tough% 8em of the dental Itjerns that were there. I got en very well with them. I used to make a great nany cultures and things, and Dr. Philip Jay. Jay came to work with m. He was a dentist from Detroit, and he did very good work on what's called Bacillus acidophilus which is an organism that gets into the cracks in your teeth and produces an acid iron sugars and thing8 and was suppesed to have caused dental cariese Philip Jay worked with me, and I had other people in the laboratory who =re interested In various side8 of dentistryl, but Whipple'rJ wisdom in setting up this dental fellowship program and the poet graduate work was enormously succes8fUL. I think I gam yeu a book on the careers ef these people who have een thereo They have becmo deana of dental schools, leader8 in dental education, and they represent a great eon- trtbution te both medicine and dentistryo i. So far 8s students in the school, the requirements for entrance vere so hiph that pu never got 4 dental studertta in those early day 8 after the schoolwa! 0perk I don't blame them because there *any afferings in dentistry in the 1 school. fhey would have had to go thr ugh a8 medical students straighto The requirements were fairly high, a,nd one ef the best requirement8 was the required interviews with all the applicants. At least three of us would iaterview every applicante Sa far as developments in the Department ef Bacteriology-as work increased, provision for an assistant to do the autopsy bacteriology was made quite early-

Page  275275 1927-Crr William Le Bradford4 Do you remember that? Bradferd was attached to the laboratoryp and he worked in autspsy bacteri- ology for a while. After that, he began to be the maim resistant to Dr. Samuel W, Clausen in pediatrics, and he finally becane Pmfesser in Pediatricr. That was another phose of collaborative work that I was able to help a little bite In ow ef theee wings toward the end of the late 1920s and early 193Cbj I ma able ta provide a aeparate laboratory roon-one for medicine, em fer surgery, and one for pediatrics9 Theywre all bEether. We were all together, and tho Health Bureau Laboratory was areund there, so tha. it got to be quite a varied and interesting place, endoeardfti8, curiou8 organisms, but the good thing was te have all the people interested in bacteriology QR the same flowo You couldn't walk around withsut meeting another bacteriologist and that extended also to radiology with tho physical side-Dr. Warren. Bradford was worMng on rheumatic fever at times and Dr. Stafford Warreno Yes, he later became Dean ef the University of california Medical School at Los Angeles and medical director of the Atode Energy Coaarissien during the building of the bomb. At Rechester he was interested In the heat treatanent of gonococcal infections. The idea was that if they knew what tesperature weald kill the gonococcus and artifically by electrical shortwves, probably raise the temperature of the body te an abnormal fever, the idea was that you would kill the gonococcus in that way, That required bacteriological backing, so I developed a relation with the radiology department in that waya in that liw-in the stuw bf the gonococcus. The same thing was used for syphilis infections, They had a person who became quite distinguished I think his name was Carpenter,

Page  276276 C, MI Carpenter, isn't it? But a8 the work increased this provision for assistantships allowed the Department of Bacteriolom to have contact with raedicine, surgery, pa thology and so on which uas~oodo You didn't run inta any t difficulties in establishing the assistantships? Ne, the salaries weren't very high$ and the place was attractive. There were lots of other benefits fraa the life there, the character of the younq faculty that attracted peopleo t r -> I don't recall anybody declining anything. No. You had a succession of peogle who really have one ob. Johns Cunningham, 3r. Richard P, Howard, Dr. Ihmald So %rtin, for a year in I antops--to.. These were assistants Theytve all had interesting careers. When thezsthe Dental Research Fellowship ogrm was that attached to the -+@ Department UUI of Bacteriolegg? Sasil 3. Bibbyecdid he come in? Yes, Basil Bibby is still highly influential in the dental educational fleld, partment, biochemistry. I think Sibby was attached-well, that was centered in Dr. 3loorIs de- That didnt t matter. No, except that there are publieations of papers by Dre Philip Jay* w. Jay was on staff, and Bibby worked with me tooo He did a good deal of bacteriology. He was an Australian,

Page  277277 Yeso What was the burgeoning interest in parasitolopy thai you had? That was a life-long interest with mer I told you about my grandfather and the malarial parasites. New Orleans, and I was very much interested in them thr ugh my medical course, I had the khlling experiences in pauraaitology clinically in Panama uhen I was down there with Geueral Gorgas, and it was a subJeet which at that tine was net well developed in medical schoolso I think that one had to do a good deal with parasites, protozoan parasites, but no formal provision had been made for it, and I didn't do it at first when I went to Rochester. lack of it because I had a close asociation in Chicago with a great parasitolo- gist, Taliaferro, and it seemed very natural to have a department that I soon didn't call bacteriology any more. that has taken over a good deal. than they do of bacteriology, but that isn't broad enough. I had seen worms and parasites in my earlier days in f After Chicags I saw the I called it Microbiology. That's a term Now they have wore Professors of Microbiology It is, in a way, but it embraces immunology alsoo They all US0 having Dr. Oliver R+ McCoy set up continuing relationship with the Gorgaa Laboratory ia Panama, Pes, I don't know how long Itve been a director of the Gorgas Memorial Institute, but it's been a long time. The Gorgas Memorial Iastitute it's alled. tute is a going concern still, I wasn't a director of the laboratory, but the Gorgaa Menorial Insti- I think McCoy was a consultant to the laboratory, Yes, and McCoy then went ever into the Rockefeller Foundation which had great interest in tropical medicine, Now, parasitology takes you into tropical

Page  278278 medicine more rapidly than bacteriology does, becauee of malaria, filariasis, and all the worms. The other day off the tape. we talked about the Acadeay of Tropical Medicine, and this is on the way toward ito b~ 1934, there is pressure for a group* and this is partly due to interest and This is 1930, and its development is in 1934, so also possibly how to finance research in tropicalmedicineo It's still the trouble right now. SO far as the department itself is concerned, Iasked you yesterday, and I may have confused the issue about the relationship between the Department of Bacteriology and local pbysicians as to whether they passibly were invited in. We were talking at the time about the Public Health Laboratories, and I don't think that was possible, but does the name Dr. Paul We Beaven..*. Yes, Dr. Paul Beaven uas a pediatrician in towm, and he came to work there sum time, He and I publiahed a pap tegether on a peculiar acid fast organism khat wasn't a tubercle bacillus, but it produced a sort of pneumonia m#ycobacterium (Sp,?), Ryan Strain, Iselated fron Pleural Exudatew 49 Journal of Infectious Diseases 399419 (1931v. It uas in the sputum of a child, and I don't think *Tve ever found them againo He used to come in and actually do work on animals and cultures, but with all friendliness, his life at that time llb 4 n animls, fi - Just showed how hard it would be for a practicing physician to do thia worko He would come in, get everything out, start to work, the phone would ring, and he'd have to go, They dtdn't have any time for it* Sone physicians can do ito The man who could adjust life to let his research go on without interference from amhirig is George Whipple. 3y George, I never saw anybodp-naybe Albert

Page  279279 Sabin is the sane kind, but Dre Whipple laid it dm at the start that he urn going ahead with his work on the blood forming factors, the nork that led to his getting a Nobel Fze, though he never had that in his laird in the beginning. All that work on pigments, henoglobin, and blood formation went right on through with the# most laberious quantitative experiments with every little factor, and yet he had imagination in it too, but it seemed to me just like grinding, grinding, grinding. He wa8 not diverted. On the other hand, Dr, Whipple had plenty of play in him+ He knew how to enjoy plopbe of the fimst things in life, aside from his very interesting faailye Do you want to talk absut him? Dr, Whipple managed to take holidays into the wildso He d ge up fishing for salmon in Nova Scotia. He was a great kery year he'd ge I n f'ishermaG out in the Weat. He was a great trout fisherman, and he'd fish in the trout streams in the West. a pareimoniow persom, he made every pellet in his shot gun count. He never 18isbbd. Herd kill all the clay pigeona, and he never missed a bird. He formed a hunt club of Worton, myself, William Sa McCann, and Warren, Dr. Whipple and SpsSff Warren, men about the same size, over six feet, never could miss anything. They ceuld shoot pheasants and shovt doubles, hit one going North and turn arsund and hit another one going So the thoso people, I think, largely beesuse th aw allowed three birb per person, and if they had somebody in the crmd who coaldnct hit 8 bird, those three birds would be dividede half more. In sdditibn, he waB a hunter better than Nimrod and being I had the privilege of hunting with 3 i That weuld let Warran and Whipple kill a bird and a

Page  280280 Did you aee among my medals the medal they gave ne? They gave we a brass medal at the end for faithful attendance and ability in findimg gam, and this medal is stenciled with the ttem Dr. Whipple used for his anearia dogs. I n 4 , Well, we also had a little poker club which met once a week. We d play fer small stakes ard drink a little beer which was very pleasant. Whipple enjoyed them thingso He was a great photographero He had an enormous collec- tion of pictures. He was always snapping something;, and although he seemed austere and strict in his administrative things, he was quite a natural human being. De you rmarnber Leroy Garnsey? Yeu had exclusive right to hunt on his patch of ground near Cayuga Lake about ten from Seneca Falls. It was apparentlz through Garnsey. Incidentally you wrote a marveleus letter about this, May I read It? 0 Tb arduous shokting days are upon us) and I am stiff and sere from walking all day in suou and rain carrying a shot gun which never hits anything. We go pheasant hunting on four days of each year, the last two Thursdays in October and the fir twa Saturdays in November,, foraed march is therefore, still ahead of me. I like it i pit. of the One that cones from unaccustomed walking from Baylight to t unset, and of the poer showing I make. At least I think I like it, though hunting instinct Is better developed for bugs than fer birdso Who is that toaarian? Yea, your sister* I n Well, those were strenueus daya, We d get up before daybraak, drive about thirty miles and tramp around in the wet all day, and as I say, they put me dabsn in the bushes to scare up the Mrdso Then you'd get home in the evedng and you could hardly move. re a number of, I guess Eastman Kodak Cornpaw people who may have gone I

Page  281(6 281 Hro Lovejoy was a director of Kodak, but I never saw much of hhu. In the hunt club? I don't think SQ, but my bacteriology cane) to the fs~e in that connec%ion tooo collect yeast. have saab practical benefit. I collected all the beer yeast of the world- LIlwenbrau, Pabst-all the yeast, so I becane the faculty brewer, and in the basement of my house I brewed beer in forty gallon kegs and made wim, I di8- It was prohibition in those times, and years before I had started to I pushed it along a little further then. I thought it might eevered that there was more to beer than just the fenentatioli. high alcoholic content, but it was easy to make. It never got I got am a side issue to study heps, and people don't rsalise what heps are. Hops contain golden yellow, resineus, little globules in mong the dried flowers, They contain an alkaloid called lupulin, and lupulin belola@;s in the morphine family. 1 didn't know that, but I thought that this gave the beer a laver. and just picked hops that had the most of these golden droplets in then. I went and got the Bops, I remember the first brew that I had of that. everybody to sleep, particularly Nathaniel W, Fa$ono He went firsto At ~ur little poker party, it put v Itn surprised that the brewing industry doesn't nake more of that. Back in the Department there were fellows. Pierce and Dr, Sara E. Branham. Univer si tvl There were the Flsischan fellowrrdlarold W. This is a relationship that ~QBLI outside the Those fellowship were not settled in my deportment, but these peeple worked Pierce was a biochemist very much interested in the intestinal flora, there,

Page  282282 particularly the bacterial flora of the large intestine, piece of work that ever came into the laboratory, an extreme degree of arthritis, but he got tis degree doing that, and his degree was largely based on a bacteriological study of the i$stinal contents,, He be- came a professor at Vermont. It was the smelliest Poor Harold Pierce developed 0 Sara Branhama was in the deparhent fhr a while as a visitor, I think3 aad she was interested in the! merringococcus, meningococcus and went from Rochester down here to the laboratories of the National Institute of Health where she stayed until she died, still working on the meningococcus a She became a great authority on the I indicated that these were Fleischman Fellow, and you indicated that that wao some relationship that sprang up between the medical schoolr urant e I think this was I don't remabar that it even had that name attached. Well, there was an A&A, Fellwu-Dr. Georges Knaysi. Well, horges Knaysi was really in the Department CY.' Agricultural Bacteria ology at Cornell, and his son is still an eninent person down there, but he was very interested, and convinced me that a bacterium had a nucleus, supposed to, cause it was so small that you couldn't see it, electron microscope they see the nucleus of the bacterium. close to us. was Cornello It was not Now, with the Knaysi was not very It seem to me that he was a commuter, His real place of work provisionwas made for hirn in the laboratory for a peFiod of theg I Yes 0

Page  283Haybe he was on part sabbaticalwanted to pick up sme other information, I think soo In any event, these people at one the, or another were at work in the laboratory. Then there were a series of Rockefeller Fellows who came, I guess, under their international program-Dr, Istvan Bezi from Budapest, Yes. Drr Alfredo Roda from the University of Philippines. YesO h.e worked on tho cholera organismo Drc Armand Frappier fromHontrea1 and Dr* Masao Nishie from To~Q. Nishlo was a good friend, a rather polite mano We invited him to dinner ena night at eur house. had forgetten about it, had eaten a full dinner aut at the Strong Memorial Hospital and then hurriedly came in and ate another dinner with us without letting me He was a bit late, aand I found out afterward+ that he Strangeo A very polit8 Japane8eo I gather Initially that Hr. Flexntsr's notion was to build a new beacom for a new cencept in medicine by the University of Rochester School a" Medicine and Dentistry-you know, there were no vested ilaterests in the way, and you could shape it fromthe beginning. Then I guess their international pregram*+zybe Alan Greg@;,

Page  284No, Gregg was juat head of the medical section in the Rockefeller Foundation. Russell might have been tb head of its F. F. Russell. laboratory. Then there WPI a apecial student. Do you remember R. Gordon Douglas ? In am event, you had a succession of these who came into the u Yes, indeed, I do. Do glas WUJ sent up to work with me from Csrnell h!\aD\lNL -> University New Pork HospitalrCenter in 19311, I think, or 1932, somewhere lib that because he wa8 to be Assistant professor of Obstetrics dom there, and they h weren't ready for him, 80 he spent a year with me, and he did a nice piece of work. Was it mercurochrame that he worked on? In any event, that started a friendship that still exista. Douglas succeeded Dro Henricuar J. Stander PI the Professor of Obstetrics and made a narvelous record at the New Pork Hospital, reduced infant, newborn mortality down to almost nothingp If he lost om woman a year from obstetrical reasons, he was shocked. ?\ record. He had a beautiful They lost some woe whm had strokes, end things like thato I don't think they opened the S$rong Memorial Hospital until April l9 1.928, but you'd been in permanent quartere froen 1925, Yes, we started in the dog house up theree Whippls built a little structure two stories high, a hUUdr8d feet by a hundred feet, in uhich there was storage of all sorts of things, the heating plant, a roan for ne, a roo= for Bloor, a rocan for Whippls, and many rvow for his dogs, McCanno or the others, worked in there OF not, but that's where I worked for a couple ef years. I don't remember whether Then you moved over into theo..e

Page  285The Main Building* The main building, but by the time they opened the hospital, you must have had pl%e a larm developmento Yeu had-uhatwaa it? I had finally four wings of that building on the second floor en the Northeast side, and those wings were about thirty-five feet wide and a hundred feet long, so there w08 plenty of spacee I think we've probably gone as long a8 we ought to go todaya

Page  286286 1 Nonday, Way 2, 1966 A409 N. L. Me Will it pick upbur voices? Yes, our voices will be all righte gato-sort of a choir outside, wefve sketched in the variety of experience that you had at Rochester, we didn't Itrn just afraid that there my be an obli- As I indicated, I want you to go back. While deal directly with the department, Its teaching aspect8 and research aspects as they relate to yourself, Dre Birkhaug, and Dr, "ennedg, highly arbitrary, Dr. Zimaer, and I know that as of this the, st8 of 1931, you either had just reviewed the 7th edition, or there was correspondence coaing on about the 8th editiono We're going to set these pur$e as though thev had no other contaminJlnts. I wondered about the Department of hcteriolegy, where you had a chance to develop without any existing vested interest in the department, You could build it the way you wanted to, I know thatdthis is I The papers indicate that Dr, Kennedy came by way of 9 / v I The search, I suspect, initially was for an assistant In the department when you think in terms of students. us all the way back again to 1925. This takes In thinkine, about your department, freshr brand spanking new, and you wanted to continue with your own work, the search was for aid and assistants with respect to that laboratory and students, how do you search for an assistant? What was the precess in l9ZS? What- A It's hard to recall all the details, but I can say that my attitude toward the department was formsd by the actual obligations to the school and to the city, hospital are to provide teaching for a seeend year class in bacteriology, to offer some support to the department of pathology in getting at the cause6 ef That determined a great deal-the obligations to the school and the

Page  287287 i the lesions that are disclosed ty autopsy, and to give support to the clinical departments, either adviso working OR their bacteriological problems. Then, of course) there is the support or actual facilities and assistanc8 in 3 large obligation teserva the Health Bureau of the City of Rochester. Those were very large and pressing obligations which took precedence over at least my owu work because, to tell you the truth, I have aluays put rsy efforts on my own investigat tional obligations. That mlghff be due to lack of comprehension of the subject, but I think it alsa was due, to the fact that I did two things. one is that I m on a secondary relatiomhip to these institu- found a great satisfaction in administrative work that led to results of a practical nature in the disclosure of the causes of conditions and in the discc clssure of the nature of microorganisms and provided a satisfaction that re- peated failuras with the research undertakings denied m. I think that's been true of what 1% done right dong. than it is to be a crackerjack investigator. Dre Whipple, Bothing deterred him frm his investigations. A wan like Albert Sabin, who is famoua now for oral vaccination against poliomyelitis, is unde- I It s far easier to be a Dean, I think, n Some aen could do both like n 2 terred by any outside events 9rom his laberatory and investigative work. Well, I never had either that courage, or that drive, or that confidence ia Pryself tobut that kind of work ahead of the administratwe work. Then another thing I did was that I felt toward the people that Iwas able to attract to the department that they should have quite a wide range of freedom in what they wanted to do. their people work OR the same general line of problems, real clear conception of the general problem that ought to have been worked om, er that I would want to work on, I would have in the first place sought people Some people uho are heads of departrnents make all I suppose if I had a who were interested in that sub3ect and were willing to do the work without any

Page  288288 compunction, or siaply say# aa sone heads of departments say,"No, I will not support you, if you don't work on this phase of the problemno" There were two men wh0 were important in this for me--Konrad Birkhaug and later James 'ennedy. Birkhaug was a prima donna in investigation who worked very hard and with a good deal of imagination. He got into a little difficulty at the Hopkins because his imaginatim persuaded him sometimes t'at things that had not happened actually had happened, He was working on a serum for strepto- coccal infection by producing abscesses in a donkey, as I rmeruber, and the h \ rt.sult of that in relation to erysipelas. He had some difficulty having his work accepted at the Hopkins. I don't know whether that comes out in these papers or not. although I didn't know hh very well, when he came up for a position with me I theught that he was correct in his observations mostly, and in the laboratory I w as very glad to have Ua because he WBB an extrenely in- teresting and able person, a very att:Tactive man, 8 raconteur of the first order, a pianist, enormously energetic. Artis+nd sculptor. Pes, he had manym-he was a sort of Benvenuto Cellini in a way, Well, when he came, he had a laboratory room quite as large as mine, a big rooms and all the supplies, animals, and anything that we could give hh, and hewas allowed to go his own way, 3e and I talked over his problems all the the, and 1 could make sme suggestions that helped along, but he was an investigator in his own right and pursued his problems very eaanestly and got some ~ery interesting results. He was an ex ellent teacher, had great clarity of expression, and worked very ha n lec$wss and the preparation for his classo Laboratory preparation for bacteriology is an arduous task for each day's work, and Konrad would do it i

Page  289extremely well, finished and very fine lectures, slmost too finished, not just repeating text- books, but they were precise and orderly and not a8 exciting as some disorderly presentations are where more argunnent can cone about. Well, he worked there and had a great many outside interests. He would areu~e the interests of the studenta. He gave very He got along among the bacteriologistso Well, the time came when I was about to go in1932, when they began to talk about my SUCC~SSQF. successor, but I felt that I could not reconmend Birkhaug, to the degree that he wanted to be recomsaended. push his candidacy any. Dr, Hektoen a130 took part in that sort of personal contrjfversy, and so did the Iwas not on any committee that had to do with choosing my His nameI of course) was on the liet, but I didn't That caused him to have a grievance against me. 0 university professors union, as we called it, the Associatien of American University Professors,, for weeks and weeks, and finally they chose Dr,, George Packer Berry to be my mc cess or It went OR in a rather tense atnosphere of u ertaiaty i What was the nature of the niiegivings? Was it the relationship to other de- me nts? - i Let me my Ita not so sure) and xl~ A ding with a record here ow that will be heard In the case p'f the character of another man, and lfd rather be careful about ito You can just say that he didn't impress them sufficae tly favorably to be appointed the pr@fessor. tions, but I think it would be better not to put it on the tape, if YOU would agree, 'i; I can think af many possible explana- The recard is fairly extensive, but when the suocessor was finally chosen presentatioa vas made that that successw ought to have 8 free field - in which

Page  290to operate. It seemed reasonable fram the scho0~~3 point of vim. That was reasonable from many points of pfeue Host of the faculty in that gmdi turn in their resignations when a new chief is coming ene Usually they're not accepted, but everybody feels that he oughtbo have a free hand. Ala0 % p apers indicate that itwas quite a problem in the aehool, dedi- this-that is, I think it urn good that Preside* Rush Rhees vas there, and he hanmd . it irola the Presidents$ Office - on a basis Meh could have been accept- able, except for the paphad where he could misread a phrase, 6r convert the meaniqgLof aqdzrase into that certainly not - intended by Rush Rhqes, al--let*a fase it* The problem was there, and it becane a diplomatic thingdan inside public relations problexrp whica very dlff icdlt o i Wa, it got so unhappy in our relationship that the fr%?ndshlp broke off then and never was renewed. prisoner of e Germans in Horuq. He came back to this country after the waro In 19h7, he came to work in losw Pork City on BCO, and he wrote me 8 letter about He went abroad after a while. I thtnk he wm a that tlse wantiwj to let bygones be bygones, and I replied, and it may be in the folder there, that I just didn't see any way to da it. I have forgotten what I Woll~in193!3, at the Ualdorf Astoria at the Congreas of Wicrobi~logista~.,. There wm apparently a scene down in the basment, er suaeuhere, and he apoloaises for that in a letter in vbfch he is quite contriteain-

Page  291with the usual flavor of his correspondence, Is the scene with me? of personal correspondence which the Gestapo had returd to hir and that he 0 c canaroes so96 n$tes that you sent hia in 1932~cfipies of which are in here= and these had to do with the action of the preeident, very gqod letters-and he mya that they lamed hir qee,ply, that nljdecided to write you a feu worda to express my slscere regrets abeut llly bad behavior 3etmrds go\r bsth at the parting cf our ways in 1932, and etiu worse toward pa, B.J., at sur meeting in the basement- of tb Waldorf Aatoria Hotel on that 'humday eveniiSeptember 7, I I \ 1 1939, at the official %net of the Xicrobiological bagreas. It was stu~.d., very stupid of me, and I fail to find at!@ exc~se for nly bad manners." I have no recollection of what heas talking about there. The conment I made before we turaed this on was that the characteristics of the man uere such that injuries were almost imagiued, and an effort to steer care- Wlv %rough Ua characte cs wm a very difficult one for the Uaiversity of Rochester, and it became iault for you mause you were his chief. You mtwd the Rochester point of view, and also you bent over backwards- that'8 WOW X ou didn't bead aver backwards. POL did it normally became that's the way you are-yeu wrote to I don't know how natllg place8 for suitable positions for him-four atpay that 3c can think of, soyou recogaised the difficulties from his point there wa8 also the soh001 to consider, arid if he didn't have the flavor which in the judgment of his peers would carry one develop the De-of-gy in relafiion to the other parts of the

Page  292achool, there wasn't alry alteraative. The difficdty did continue for a$long tire a8 a continuing trotable8orae spot, I eruspeeb froar his point of view. He went to the Pastear Institute, There are IonLletters not to yoa, but to Miss Creegan. I oa hi8 exmnditures. what it is he ha8 left, This can be the se~ te a p13rsoml tmrberua a8 distinct frm what is factually correct. This I don't kaw. I dQcitt have auy comment on It, except that tbese are the pape rs, but this is the first tirs pu'd been in a ticklish spot like this thut I can think of. _I I haven't run aero88 another om like thi8 in the files. Bo, I never have had a sfrilar oneo Itre had fist fights, arguments, but nothing like this, and this was very prolongedr Did thics effeat his work while qroa mm there? 1~0, aa I recall, this was 3ust sort of before I wmfgoing away-mybe frola January to June, 1932, 80Btething like thab It increased in intensity froa ths iuememt he recefmd the letter freas the presi- dent. He sort of read inte it m6ro thanwas itended. The stude to him wa8 favorable I gather. Yes, he waa very attractive to students, a lively prsoa, esseatlally friedly, but apparently this cut hin so deep that he suffered frolll it.

Page  293293 As I remember, I wrote to Dr. ZinsrPer and asked him if he could help me flnd somebody who would be willing to be a very hard working assistant, aud as I recall it, Dre Zinsser said that most of the men who w~re trained by him had already been placed and that they were much in demand which is the truth. Hie wiu a popular laboratory for training people and a great source ef supply of young men who vr)m wanted at other places, but he recoxmended Jim %nnedy to me, and I liked hia when I 88u him, We had a frank talk about the kind of work that ho would be asked to do, and aa I look back on hin now, he v85 most unselfish. There wasn't anythiug he wouldntt do, if you asked him too I mn't lsay that he was a erlave, but he made hiaself so helpful and anticipated so many tiresome tasks that he wed up all hie tine ia that. I don't believe that he did any originsl research work the time that he was there. How long was he with me--two years? You said 1931. Then when the successor was appointed, Dro kry, he did not ask him to stay, and Jim Kennedy then went down to be head of the Health Department Labora- tory at Louisville, Kentucky. F'irst he went to OeorRia. Well, Itre forgotten, but he's still doun at Louisvfllo. That was an endiag of an asso~iation. We have corresponded a little bit since then, but .)I haven't 8een him since those Rochelrter dam. any letters for a tine. I hear about him, but we haven't exchanged There's one stub that he had been doixin Zinsser's Laboratory with someone o at Harvard. and they were publishins; a paper which was quite

Page  294critical of a Dr. Coca. Dr. Arthur F. Coca-yes, I knew him very well. He was an allergist and had some very peouliar notions abeut leukocyte counts and different conditions. Coca hiaself was a pianist subject to migraine headachrs alad ditqr spells, and I remember owe he came to see me at my house and imaediately had to lie dom om the sofa. man was ruffering so much. Coappalpr at Pearl River, jast North of New York and wa8 a man of rather strange Nothing could be done until the next day alnroat because the poor Coca was cronnecteb, f think, too with the Lederle characteristics and peouliar ideas, but a bright peraoa who had a respectable standing among inmunoleg;lsts, but rather a crank. i: I think the subject was the diffe.fentiation in the types of blood, or blood \ -e Yes, well he was intereated in blood groupse He was early in blood typingo He was om of the original inrrestigators on studies of transference of sensi- tiVifq byserum from one individual into another, and he put them-48 called them atopiw-put thatserum into the other individual and the spot where you put the serum bectmes aetrsitive to the thing that the llraa was sensitive to, uhatever it be, pollen, or romething else. Dr, Kennedy and for the moment I can't remember who the other personwls, the senior meaber. Reuben Ottenburgo NO -e Well, probably the senior member would be responsible for that because I

Page  295I can't think of Jiatt3 attscrEdng anybody. In the uritinwections were raised, you write a paps r, sameone else will read it and what they will look for is the You know, you've said before - that when c manner in which their om work is treated, or whek it is treated. z That% right. Apparently Dro Cwatt3 work was treated in this study ad uo reated In a manner 1 in uhich he thodit it deserved, and it raised again a kind ',f peripheral nego- L VU tiating problem in order to get words that would convey what the author18 in- tended and not to be too..,, 7 Lp I have a vague recollection that Drs Coca and Dr, Zinsser were at outs with one another in New Yorke Before Zi~ser went to %rvard, he knew Coca in Ww York, but Coca was important. He was one of the early men who started blood bank8 which are very goodo Af'ter you removed yourself from Rochester, I think OR your recommendation, Dr. Kennedy uaa placed in charge of the pubUc hoalth aspects of the laboratory a8 its administrator, and he continued there, but apparently cor;lldnft-aomehou, or s~flieway-llr~ Berry waa whclly different* and you. know how those things start, I don't, believe that '*n~ doing any injustice to 3h banedy by saying that he didn't hare the capacity to dlea3. with public and general problems of the city Health Bureau LabQratories. He could do technical Work of a high order, but the rest of the. relationships were beyond hian. You know* when you leave a post-you aau Rochester fraa baby up through swaddling clothes into a burgeoning thing, You bad more material to deal with

Page  296and the relatiomhips that you had were vpen both War80 thing in the papers that would indicate that you had aqy difficulties along the line ao far as the management of that laboratorgia concsrmd vis-a-vis all the needs and demands that were placed on you whether they cane fran the school, 6r the hospital, Qr other laboratories, or other departments. You apparently had time to do this and it's in keeping with your views that this is the service, but any views with respect to your successor-I doatt know that you expressed aWa W this tiaae the workd had changed, and new tbings were on, but an the nomination of a ~CCBISIS~W which is gbing to alter the nature of this laboratory- it remves one variable and substitutes another, and everything and everybody is changed ia the promrrs. I can't think of any- I didn't go to Washington for a year before I resigned fraa Rochester. You were there in 1932, That was a leave of abaence fraa Yale @iYersity. I had already accspted the Yale position, and I went down and had been appointed chairrnen of the Division of dical Science of the Matioaal Research Council. et mie put on another reel. All I can say is that I cannot recall any diaagreement, or disfavor, or disorder in the relations I had in the school that cawed me to leave ito As I remember, I had a vague sense that it was time to this- particular move icr 1932, was Financially advantageow to me. the reason that I left at tbat timeo Although I had a prospect at Yale of getting a larger salary than I herd at Rochester, Iws sorry to go. You always have ratxed feelings about things like that, and when you try to think them over ve an. It wasn't that k Thattsiasn't

Page  297297 later on, yen may make up your lliind that one thing was the cause of it and another thing was a cause of it another timeo Do you wantme to go on with the Research Council? No* Thia is rougtiiy 1931, and we ought to go back to June of 1930, when you had a visit from a classmate-Professor French. Isntt he a class~uate? Yes, Robert French--suree Therebs enough in here to indieate that the original suggestion with reference, I believe, to Trupphll Cellege.... r To be a star at Yaleo Yes, dates back to June of 19300 Robert French was Waater of Jonathan Edwards Cellege when the residential colleges were being built and opened up at Yale. What do you want me to say about that phase of it2 He seem to have been acting on his m behalf to Interest you in coming aa a Master of a college in the RQ~ educational developments at Yale. I forget whether he talkad to Winternits first, or whether Dr, Winternits talked to him first. Robert F'rench was a Professor of Englirsh inYale College and probably hardly knew that there was a Yale Medical School inexistence there beeawe Yale College was very self-centered and didn't care too BiUCh, or very much, for its prOfS@Si@ al schoo1s, and indeed, to Robert Prench the very language of nedicine vas a jargon that offended his eares. with hin and make hias work out these words etymologically, and he had to admit 1 I used to sit down

Page  298that they were the most beautiful explicit words that he could find. He was a student of Chaucer, and these medical words are much better than Chaucer's vords, some of thsn. He was a dear friend of mim, a member of the Bones Club 1 was in, and. we were close lagether all the rest of the time we were at Yale and befere I came to Yale4 mean, before I came there as a Master and then right on up to the the sf his death* Professor French 8eema to have been very much interested in hatlng you ccme there a8 a Waster representing acienc~. Perhaps iome notaon as to the new educational sy8tesl which w88~ being installed 8t Yale is worth a word because when Presid-nt Jaaes R. Angell writes to you, and I think at the behest of French, seldom have I 88811 such cub blanche ia a letter. I8 that Angellea letter? This Is a con of his letter-yes. Do you remember this one? YO8 o The reaidentid colleges were 8 graft ef the Oxford-Cambridge system onto Ame~can Institutiona, a model of these buldings even, and the system was what they thought the English colleges were. Hr. Charlee Seymour whowae provost at Yale, had been abroad and wae a fellow of a college at Cambridge, I think, and tiad admired thaa very mucho Aotually the college ph a waa started because money was available. Mr. Ward S. Harkwess offered colleges, and Hr. Angell ami Seymour turned it domk The money went to Harvard and the Harvard residelntial houses a8 they were called, were built with a gift of about twenty rillion and were in operutloo when the Yale college p$an wm colaing along, so that the ~arvard example helped Yale to 8ocept the gift when it the money to set up I

Page  299299 W.LI renewed. Yale ret abut in that time to build these extraordinary Gothic college house buildinga, Several of the colleges are built in good Georgian brick, but one of thew has Georgian brick on the inside 0f the court while the whole frontage on the street fs Gothic-the 8me building. rynthetic thing, and the new buildings-the new things that have been dorm by Saarirren and others for the neu celleges-show that they weren't permanently omored of that kind of Gothic obscurity. It was a The plan of the colleges wtm to have about seventy, eighty, a hundred student$ living there in the college quadra@.es and taklrtg their meeila there, but the colleges had no mowy and no faculty except attached fellows, had nQ set administrative duties, except to keep watch Over the behavier of the students living within the confinas of that particular collegeo These colleges were! not like the English colleges in thatrespect haauas all the English colleges have endowments and financial managanent of' their oun and actually have eurricrzlar matter8 that they supertise. rnltgtive arrangememta between student and faculty. deal sinae then and inrecent years, which I won't go inta, except to sw they've got sssistant deans liviag in the colleges now, and the colleges are taking on more and more formal activities in the education of students. 4% lhese oolleges were to have con- 1 tBs been changed a good keh college had a fine common roam, fine dining h8U, and all of us tried to build up libraries. We had 8~118 money to buy books, and each college developed a library along the line8 of interest mostly of the Master, one phase of money that cam6 in there which was very useful. and excellent for both student and faculty to support wa~b what w aalled a Bursary System. Mro Rarknesa and some others had left money to give 8but 1900 dollam a year to each college and with that the college could carploy, or arrange for the emplopnt of students, L

Page  300provided they did not assign them to menial tasks like waiting on table, things like that, so we developed a systesn by which students became research assistants and literary assistants to members of the faculty mostly. It workeed very well. / i c/ Hew to go bock to myself-you say I have a "carte blanche" there from Nr. Angell. With all due respect to Mr, Angell who was a friend of mine and who passed on some time -0, I doubt if he knew what he was writing, I think he said in that latter that he wanted me there to represent science in the colleges and that I would find-I think he says thfa;--oonditiollpi for work as favorable as I would find anywhere else. Doesn't herq that? "Wa feel equally certain that we can promise you opportunities for fruitful work in your ~UQ line that you would recogwire a8 fully meeting your requirements.# That's pretty vague. That*s pretty vague, and thatrs pretty big, I don't believe I took that toe erioasly; in fact, I never preased it very 1$. far after I got there. my own behavior and hi80 senting aciewe in the colleges. explained before, and Yale was famous for people like Benjamin Sillinurn in chemistryp and Willard Gibbs with the phase rule and physics on a high plane, mathematics of great intricacy and power, so I had no false idem about BIY representing science in the place. respeet for the experimental approach to problem and, in essence, the so-called experimental method. those other disciplines. Although you wight not have a capacity to work in gAll have to gs back to the background of that to explain In the flrst place I had no illusions about my repre- I wa5 P aon-seathsmatical biologist, as I have I could represent a point of view of C The scientific point f view was probably common to all A

Page  301301 astronomgc because gou happen to be a bacteriologist, you can have a high regard for astronorpcJT. They talk the same language when it cmes to assessing observa- tiow arid looking for the things you would undertake to test B theory and maybe I altar your hypothesis according to the new findings. All that xas cogmnon to both. Before I got to Yale and before I talked with Dro Winternits, I had been dealing with the bacteriophage clam of Dr, Felix d'Herelle, the great dis- coverer of bacteriophage, whowas brought to Yale from some place in the region of' the Caspian Sea-I khink he had a laboratory out there through the Pasteur Institute. He not only lade this eutrsordfnary observation of the ability of this virus like material to get irasi.de of a bacterial cell aud reproduced itself in en(~moua numbers and destroy the cell, a most amasing phenmeaon that turned out to be one of the most inportant dirooveriea biologically of the present tiSe beCSUSt3 it takes into the study of self-replicating Praterial--such as DNA. That's what the bacteriephage puts out into the cell. Well, awhow, the Council on Pharmacy and Chembtry of the American Medical Association of which council I was a member, spent a lot of time examining the claims of Dr. dcHerelle-so-called bacteriophage therapeutic claims andLpreren- tire clsina. He had a rather extraordinary notion that health could be COD- tagtous because if bacteriephage destroya nicroorganisms and you can put the bacteriophage in the ai\ and get it in your body, and it is in your body, occurs in $he intestine all the time and in seeretiom, you could infect people with something that would preserve theiq health. extraordinarily valuable age for the treatment of the urinary tract infections because it disolves colon bacilli and proteus bacilli. He made SOQIB) extraordin- ary claim for its ability to cure dlsease. I 4 4 Then he thought it was an 5 f I used to talk to Dr. Winteraits

Page  302about that before I had any notions of going to Yale and before I had a full appreciation of the position of Dr. dtlhelle at Yale. Dr, d'3erelle had an Associate Professor's position in the Department sf Bacteriology in the Yale Bfedical School, and there were two full professors there also-Leo Rettger and George H. Smith. Ge rge Smith, the head of the department on the medical side, was the great admirer of dUerelle arid had hixa cloae in his laboratory ia close association. bacteriologist, more intierested in the production of sour ailk because he thought he had an organisa that would produce long life like the Bulgarians hd-Baelllus acidophilus it was called. He made acidophilus sflk and drank it and sold it. Then he wa8 interested in the biological characteristics of baetelrl., all the sides of bacteriology that do not necessarily have aqy con- metion with medicine. Well, to fit se into that laboratory they had to find space which had not been prolrided when Mr. Angel1 wrote his letter, and I managed, with Dr. Winternits's help, or Dr. Winternitzrs influence, to get three fair sised room and an office in a wing across from Dr. Wth and Dr. Rettger in the 8- building. Theee rocam were unf'lttsd forhocteriolagy, and no pro- viaion had been made for equipgoeat. I was given some equipnent in the place, and at that the Dr. FKnternito secured the resignation of Dr. d'Herelle, and I inherited a good deal of his bacteriological equipeat. to buy some for myself, but I -8 off there, rather isolated in a sen88 ostra- cized, and I had no assistant at that time. Dr. Zinssert6 plaCze-Monree Do Eaten is a veq able, originat investigator, alwl he did a great deal of good work there OR diphtheria toxin and tetanus toxino Both Monroe ton and I taught graduate students. i Dr. Leo Rettger was a general Also I uas able Dr. Monroe Eaton came from t Well, that wa8 not like whatMr. Angel1 had written ne. I really suffered

Page  303303 from having been in the position, or been put in the position, or mybe I worked myself Into the position, of displacing Dr. dtflerelle fraw a place where he w88 congenially located and red. same research of my own ontetanua toxin, its method of trammission by nerves, and seem general metabolic studies OB bacteria. Then I begandoing the odd sort of things that I had always beea doing, working with the departraent to study srganiaRs in various lesions--I did surgical bacteriology, autopsy bacteriology, aad Iaasisted the pediatric38 department in 8- things. I didn't have anything much to do with medldne beeawe the head of medicins, Dr. Francis 0. Blake, was hinsslf an expert bariologist aad intereated deeply in infectious di~ease8~ Anyhow, I got to work there aad started How, going back on the college side, I have writtea this in a report long ago to Yale-not to their liking+ I foand soon that this plan of having a Water of a cellege subject to academic cdttse meetings and so Zor$h and subject to consultation at any time by ang student in the place, and in a place that vas run with a ssrt of bo moat type of idea of association between young men and the grofessor, so to speak, wouldn't work for a man who had to work in the laboratory. This is actually what f went through. 1 would plaa an experlamat thst would take fmm eight to ten hour8-thatt8 rather a normal working day in a laboratory. than I'd get a call to come over to a meeting in the Prasidellt's Office, or sone faculty, @r you'd ha responsible, social evenb, athletic eventa. Each college hsd teams. Each college had a recreatioa progras for which the Master wa8 responsible, and our house was fall of studeats % the tiare. Wrs. Bayne-Jones was extraordinary in the grace and constancy with which she watehed after the needs of the students and provided all sorts of eatertment and coapany for them. L ? I would no so er get over in the laboratory k 11 sort$ of events in the college for which you were + She had a very

Page  304304 great ability could do. she'd Introduce everybody, remembering their names on first hearing them which I never ? Sometimes there would be fifty of than in the Master's parlor, and I don't see how she did it, but it was wonderful. Well, that weat on for some time, and thie I cam tell truthfully-I won't say any man, but particularly one like myself, who has always been impressed by the institutional obligations, will go down under that arrangeprit that I have Just described. You 80013 realiae that you can't work tea hours in a laboratory an a ret of expriments. Yau cut the protocola, and the plans down to eight hours, and then you cut thm down, or at least I cut th6m dwn ts six hours. tried to devisa things which I could work in a few bars a day end pick them up on another day, and sametiaaces you wouldn't gat back to then an the next day. The laboratary was clear acrema town for one thing. Ultimately the ystem de- feetted itself as far a8 haring soience in the college goesl, I talked to them about this, but f think you can understand what Itn try3.W to say-partiaularrly a man constructed as f am would give way under that arrangement. I have always thought that if I really had had the faith in my ability to do important re- search, I muldn*t hare gone down mder ito 1% 8Ur80 The cmbination of these circumstances resulted in my almost doing nePthing in he laboratory of my own, but I did everything I could to me that Monroe %on had all the suppliea that he wanted, and he could work all day and all nighto That's the way it went from the time I was there until 1935, when I became a Deano 'hen I l f The correspondence about the ori- positiqn is quite protractedcthst is, you Ere still in Roehe~ter~and Professor French who headed one of the com uaa very mch interestgd in haviagyon come as a head of a college, but you raised a whole series oL-well, quoting a sentence from %e Angel1 to Provost SeymourdRThe nature of requlremntstt. Orre af these WUI appointment as Professor

Page  305of Bacteriology in the Yale hiical Schoo. That they dih A laboratory consisting of ..,, appointment on the faculty of the prsdicsl blchool. That they dido Yese the initial equipllant_f the laboratory to be provided outside ef the budget of the labratory, and then 8- budgetary secretarial 8erxlceo %e teaching am3 administrative duties were left pretty hasg because they had to wait until facts hit you in the face, but apparently theywere very much inter- ested for their purpaues to neet your requiremumti8 as best they could because they wanted science tobpreseat/in the new educational systaBp which ovsrlooked, as you've pointed out, your necAsitiecl for doing some work. This ir long and protsacted. 3s IO/ I\ It started, as-I understand it Pram the corrsspondsnce-the first idea is broaehed to you on a visit by Professor Frenoh in June, 12304e says later that your coming to llarle a8 Master go88 back to a conversation he had with you in June of p30.t It all seemed very attractire and very exciting and news But therm-I gather that the college wasn't ready to receive you in 1931. The college buildings in which Trumbull College is located are reorganiaed and renovated building8 of the Sterling Hernorial Quadranglea The money from Trmbull College came fran Mr. Sterlingcs gift of land thatwaa down by Green- wich, Connecticut, It was not as richly and easily set up as Pierson, Jonqthan

Page  306Edwards, and all those new colleges, Mrs. Bayne-Jotles and I worked at Rochester men with the help f Mr. Eastaan on revising the plans for the #aster's House at Trumbull College which was sandwiched in between three great, + tall, five stcry, stow donrftories. We did set a house in there that was 8 very fitas house, but it wasn't ready in 1932, and I accepted this appointment a8 chairman of the Division of Medical Science of the National Research Council for om year. Shell I go on with that? Yes9 becaasemu leave Roebster-yeu uomtirrued there for 8 period of time until I they settled the replacement, xeaybe thrwgh June of 1931, Does that sound right? Then you went off to Washington, though pur appointment begins at Yale 8s of that period, Yes. You YBPB on whatever it is-erabbaticd., or leave of absencee was agrement with Pale that you do th3.s. The Rerraarch Council hss to do with Lndvig Hektoen, doesn't it? In allg events there Yes. %e National Rersearch Council is divi8iq or a subordinate part $. of the NaUenal Academy of Scienter, and it wa~ ret up in 1915, by the National Academy and modified in 1919, in accordance with an order of President Wilson who wanted to bring to the aid of the government special scie tific research on problems of importance to the government in any way at all, and the National t Research Council was sot up ipe auch, and it contained a number of sub4Vision8, like Division of Biology and Chesiatry, a Division of Engineering, 8 Division b

Page  307307 ef Medid Sciences, and I was chdrraan of the Division of kdical Sciencei. Dr. H6ktOea Wa8 the chairman of the hMofd search CotlnCil 88 a Whole for a whileo council suddedy got poor, so that the salary they had agreed to pay me was eut in half. Then Dr. Howell succeeded him-William 8. Howell. At that time, the I That*s a fine memory$ Ia that right? So we came down here and get a little apartaent mer on Foggy Botten, and I had, f thought, a very h8y time with important things, but when I saw what hsppened in World War 111 when the Hatiod Reaearch Council and the Medical * Division -re dealing In milltons of dollars, the small. budgets that were con- sidered at the time I w88 the chairman were just "chicken feedn a8 Dr. Winternitz teld rn later, with me and Dr. H.weU+ X remarkable Ruasianerfcan scientist named Sewn Although it was "chicken feed", I like to tell what happened Wakrrmaa-do you know who he was? New Jersey-agricultural, soiloco. StreptoqVcia, This is the Mvisian of ;cBbdlcal Sciences. One day when I waa Bitting in my offioe a short, dark, bushy head laan with rather heavy ,? features aad B kindled eye me in and said that he uanted a grant of twe$y- five hundred dollars to help bin find out what kept the streptococci in the soil in balanoze with the fun- elements. He wau intemeted la the ecology of the orgsaism in the soil which is a profound ecological probleme The relation-

Page  308ships of organisms in the soil, ia the air, io bodies is intricate and extremely interesting. seem to be in balance. that to do with medicine? Any om of them has an effect on the others, and they generally If they aren't, then out goes the other, but what had Well, it did interest me beauuse I could see from sme past interests that this was in a biological lim that I would like to see worked on# SO I took him down the ball to ares Dr. Howell, and Dr. Hewell waa a very broaddnded mian. He had been the Professor of PhySiOlOgY with wbom I had worked at Hopkins in the early times, and he thought that Waksman'a idea was very interesting 00, se he approved giving Selman Wak8laaa a grant to study why the streptococci and the fungus forms were in balance. out of that came streptomycin because strepto- mycin is a product of the streptothryx, a fungus that grow8 in the soilo You never know what will happen mae times, Waksman out of that developed a great remedy for tuberculosis, a drug that is also isportant in the treatment ef typhoid fevero E~onaous royalties frw it built his Plicrobiollogical research laboratory at Rutgers. k War this the nature of the job-to sift possible support? Tea, we had a grant-In-aid program* Me had a number of things, but ust nuch money, not like nmwadrys. This is an earlier day, and in terms of your om experience it is related, in put, ta bar to ssort re8earch, the Leprosy Foundatien and later the Childto Fund. This is the first experience that you'd had, Yes, with either giving a grant, or refuaiag 0-0

Page  309309 We had a llttle money in the Research Council for making graita, Did you also work at thie tim with Lafayette Meadel in the American Medical Association Conmittee-chemistry and pharmacy. Wet Lafayette Wendel EO much. He was prsfessor of biochemistry at Yale, but the head of the Cawittee en Phasaracy and Chemistry was Dr. Torwald Sollmon, the phsmcologist from Cleveland, frau Westera Reserve, I knew Dr. Mende ,and I worked under him as a student when 1 waa an undergradaunts at Xale* and I had known him @if atad on all the time. Ip Md the National hrearch Council task and the American bdieal Asssociation--( were they parillel? Theytrce not. They had no oonnection. Did mu wear two caps? I ma Q Qerber of a caamittae-a review Canittee on phsnnsroy and Chemistry, and I was a member of other cdttees, but it had no organis conneotion with tkw Hptioaal Research Ceuncil. Wore efforts made fer legirrlatien in tenm of further support in this period on the hM.@nal Research Ceuncil? No, the legislation that changed and was responsible for the rtod.rn develop- laent of the National Raseareh Ceuncil didn't cone about until after World WarII,

Page  310310 when President Rooserelt and Vannevar Bush set up the national defense research agencies. The National Rerearch Council in this period did have 9011~ legislative bare, didn't it? Yes. By actione, of the National Academy of Sciences in response to letters and an Executive Order of Presideat Woedrow Wilson, during the period 1918-1919e It dldn't have any new leglslatlork granting organisatieas. I vaa there vas under Dro William Charles White, a sear morphiner foundations. Another thing of very great importance was a Camittee on Sex- all the biology of endocrine8 and hormoues that cane from organs of inter secretion, sex orgaa and so forth. to do with, and that I carried forward again at Yale, was Dr. Yerkes study of the behavlor of big apes, the chimpantee in Floridao for a substitute for morphine were quite interesting, but turned into a whole lot of routine .tGStiw--th cherniets could make compounds so much faster than the pharwacologists could test them out In animnals that it just built up on the shelves an enormous supply of materid. the year I helped Dro Zinsser revise his book, It got its funds very largely from For instance, one of the things we were stadying while for a subrstittste for Itwas supported by pharmaceutical people and by some philanthropic k Another big project that we had smething \ The studies on looking 1 enjoyed that year, That is also Yes, I think It's probably time to go baek and pick him up too, We said initially that 80 many of these things operate at the same time that it is hard to get the flaver of reaction as between one and another. Do you want to start en the book?

Page  311311 You wrote a review of the 7th edition which is an interesting review. know hawkou read, but your notes indicate that you did almost an atuopsy on that 7th editien. I don't 1 I told Dr. Wwaer that I was going to do this because Morris Fishbein invited me to do thiso I gave Dro Zinsser an outline of what I was going to say. 'Phe substance of what Iws going to say about the 7th editionwas that it was the best book for teaching that I had ever put my hanb on because, as I wrote in tbe review, it had an overt error on each page, a slightly concealed error on each page, and a very subtle error oneach page. You give, the book to stndenh3, and a lot of them hand you back just what's on the pageo You know that man is not thinking, is not bothered by the error. Another student is a little bit upset and confused, and he asks some qtnestisns. A third student will me all the errore, will work out the answers himself, and will have nothing sore to do with the book. He is then emancipated from the tyranagr of the printed page, and he's a good mn. I put all that in the review and told Dr. Zinrser that it warn going to be about like that, but he had forgotten that I was going to write the review* He had gone ts Algiers to be with hie friend Ricolle te work on typhueo Nicolle? - Yes, Charles Jules Henri Nicolle-he was very fond of Nicolle. picture a profile end Rvcketts are on the Typhus CaPaission Hedal new4 Itwas Micollegs Well, this review was published while Dr, Zinsser was away. published in the Journal ef Infectious Diseases, I think, which was put out by the dmerican Medical Association, and when Dr. ansser got back to this country, he got furious and thought his enemies in Chicago were after him. He

Page  312312 wrote an indignant letiter to Dr. Morris Fishbein, the adftor of the Journal $the Anericsa Medical Association and other publications, and Fishbein refsrred G -- ~ - - ____- it to Dr, Hektoen, and Dr, Hektoen told Dr. Zinsser that I had written it, so a when it doesn't matter. It's too trivialen Zinsser heard that freaa Dr, Hektoen he wrote me,'*Oh, since YOU did it, Ne knew his book eught to be revised, and he tried over and over again to 2 get smebody to help him, He asked me two or three times, and I said that I had too much to do and that I couldnrt. I succtvllbed as u8uaL I was in his I laboratory ia Bostsn one day up at Xarvard, and he got a telephona call-it was from somebody down sQIDBWhBre in the South, I think, Baying that he was awry that he cauldntt undertah to be oe-author with him in revising the book, so Dr. Zinaaer started walldng around the room, saying,'What on eart;h ara I going to do? at Itn going to do," How am I goiag to do this? If Sca I said,"All right, I would," I really undertsak a piem of work then. ym don't help meli I don't know I was then chairrnan of the Division af bdical Sciences of the timd. Rasearch Council, and I SUppOS8 I didn't know what a labor this would be. I had a full time j8b at the National Research Council. building, and I persdod the librarian of the Surgeon Generalre Library, which uas the forerunner of the National Library of hdicim, the old building down on 7th and Independence AV8nU9, to give me a corner back in the stacks, a table, and stack privileges, so I could run down there at all sorb of sdd manrents and in the evenings sometitnee and work oci the notes and thing8 fer this book. I was living right a6roBs the etreet f'rom the Navy Hospital. Back si that waa the Hygienic Laboratory, the isrerunner of the Matienal I- stitutelr of Health, aad Dr. George W. HcCoy was the head of that and a friend of dne, and he gave me free run of this library, so with those two libraries

Page  313313 and putting in all the time I could find anywhere, I managed to write in long hand in that year, 1 think, more words than are in the Bible. seven hundred thousand words in leng hand which- a great labor. I think I wrote I found that the book really needed a thorough overhauling to bring in the nodern idess about bacterial variation, the morphological variations as we33 as the cultural variations, and the host variations, Dr. Zinsaer*rr thinking very auch to that time bercawe hewas strictly a mono- aorphist, as we call. thean, a pupil of Robert Koch whs thought that a bacillus was a rod, and a coecu~ was a sphere, and that a ddhere could not be a rod and a rod could not be a sphere. Well, there are all sorts of transitions between those twoe one could be one one tiam and another time the other oneo The power mf the laaguage is so great, and I'll give you an example at that time. There were two important organism. One is called Bacillus abort- which causes abertirsn in cattle and ndulent fever in hmns. It- discovered by B. Bang in Norway, or Dengerk. Itfs a very serious infection for humans as well as cattle, 8 leng chronic thing, abscesses and troubles. A very shilar kind of a diseasa, Malta fever, ie produced by an organism known as Micrococcus meli- tensis, discovered ia the Island of Malta, and these two diseases were treated separately and described separably, The srganiems were described separably because a coccus couldnft be a bacillus, and a bacillus couldn't be a COCOU. They are as close together as brother and sister. hey have erom imune re- actions. stea and dter theywere put together by Alice Evans, Karl #eyer and others about this time - fin the 193087 - it was a great clarifioatiou. Well, that was going on, and it runs through the revision of thir book in nianywws. The same with diphtheria bacillue, tetanw-everyone of them varies duet like hugurn That had not been in i 1 They have asany culturd. reactions in camonI 'hey belong on the same beings 0

Page  314314 Well, Dro Zinsser worked hard on this mvisien too, and I worked as hard as I could with very little sleep, aided i wkefulness by giving myself light potations of stuff that caused inteaso indigestion, and that disturbed me so 4 much that I could sit tip and work~oatly hard boiled eggs, Then I didn't want to have any difference with my dear friend, Dr. Z~%S?JO~, whowra high 8trungo I told you this at$ecdotieo Shall I pat it in hem? L/ Abeut the earberr cop5esT Put it in. I invented srme fictitious bacteriolegists and would type off a letter with a carbon copy aad send it to Dr. Zinsser. written to me and said,Youtro revising this boek, aad I wat you to notice that the definltit~n of the diphtheria antitaxin unit, for e eerrec t. would say that this man had ple, is entirely in- + I would send that to Dro Zinssero things like that, and Dr. Zinseer had a great big black pencil. and it would come baok to me with a big pencil mark on it,WquiU. is an asso" I signed these latter like J, Po Squill, Keakuk, Iowa, Ird write bia another one and finally break hinr down. We never had any dlaaagreeaents, or fuss about ito was he open t. c ctioa on rariabilitz? Oh yes, he took It up strongly after that, and he worked on variable organisms, %he Rhcettsia of typhuse He contributed, 1 think, the best chapters in that boek. A chapter en tuberculosia, a chaptar on typhus fever, and most

Page  315of the chapter on encephalitis have a touch of the master that 8iawser vps in that phase of it. Most of this is Carrie orrsapondence. Pes, we didn't me each other very awho I would take manuscript to meet hlm either in Bostsn, im l%w York acme weekllends, and he'd drop in, WasJe a person who diepabhrd business thb wag? Oh yes, he wars a very facile prson, clear headed. This was dene in a 1933. par, and I thfnk that 8th edition--* 18 the date on that? It was about a thousand pages, and I added a chapter on the history of bacteriology that hadn't been very good in the previous work. As far as using the ROPI de pluwtt Dr. Zinsaer cmld understand that because he wr@bte sonnets and other things and signed it Rudolph Schmidt, never told. Nobody knew who khat waso He not sure I bow yet, but I. think his rother was Schmidt. f den't I don't knew either. But yon saw it iR these sennets, or in Ae I Remembr. eery new and then he'd fall into that third persan, that fictitious character. me Pape rs are filled with clarity about the natura of the contract,due regard

Page  316to the Hiss family. He's very gentle about thia in not wanting to.... Yon meam$ when he divided rwyalties with me? We did akl right en that 8th editiern. I don*t kn~w whether the accewts are in thmsa papers or not. aold for eight dollars a copy, and we sold foray thouaand copies, I think, but I don't berlievo the Ftyaltie8 were fiftp4Wty. Maybe I had them in another bok. !bat edition I Were they? Whatever ebtaitmd in term fDf the contract with you.uos Piny-fifty. There was aa initial period ia which somome else had writtea a sectionr No. sameone UP there at Haward, and init+ he was sharing armething with 2 him @nest E. Tgsre27, The initial person wa8 Philip HofHissq Yesr, U8s. The tine caw when 1 wanted ta, turn it over to and Roman Fo Conant. Did yeu notice the dedicatimra in that? Leek at that$ You'd think I was dead. It put8 me aleng uith Hiss and IS this going mn ere too? Ziarrser of whm are dead, and I'm next. on Sme of the eaPPents received after publicafiioa rrr suite illdnating. A let of people noticed that the book had been reallg

Page  317317 revised, and you were revising this rit up to the noslent ef publication, as the - galleys came ia and new work cane in. You wanted to ,make sure. would send you this, and you wanted to make sure tihat this new viewpoint HOB incorporated in the textbook. 'eopl_e That's an endless kind of thingp isn't it? Yes it is. You start to revitre ilr ern place and the doain;o falls down aggeyhere elre. Me had to watch that. In the war this book was seld to the Amy, There are copies in all the laboratories in the Army. selection committee for the Surgeon ueneraldeneral Hugh Morgan and I and several ethers, and after a while-I don't t@k I wa really afraid of H~~~ flict of interest" because there vaeatt any book like it. avoided it. book like this at that tire-fW.1 of practical directions 88, well a8 philosoph- ical diaeussion,, Just teward the end of the war, I got Appleton and Company ta figure out just hew much of my royalties had coma fram the books that were purchased by he Army, and I sent then a sisable aheck to the Treasurer of the Udted States. Treasury when you pay back the gmement. The other moral preblm I had with th t I was en the book ili They could net have 0 A not saying that b astfully, bat there wa8n't any ether text- R b It didntt do the Surgeon 'eneral any good, It gee8 into the I felt good about it. ook during the war can8 through my + administration of the Amy Epideaiological Board. with all the original main imeetigaters of infectious disease and bacteriolo- gists in the United StQtes for four yearsr I knew what Dr. Sabin, Dr. Rivers, Dochea, Avery-all the nev things that were in their minds and what theywere doing. a book, and I didn't see h@w I could do that without disclosing what I knew from the unpublished reports of these ether workerso my colleagues, so I decided I w0uldnt.t do that. I was in closest contact Toward the end of the war Appleton wanted me to put out aWth8r revisien, 0 I could have had a sco p. I had the run sf that T

Page  318318 It'e all in the filerr. I told Mrs. ZirshJser about it, and she didn't object particularly, and Dr, Mth and Dr, Conant at Duke took it onr and they put aut a good editiono c Sime then it's now reached the 12th edition. This is a_period also for purp mts of understandim and writing, of really climbing on top of the field, When you put pencil ts paper, YOU begin te dise Bad roiuiutbrough the Surgeon '@neralr8 Libram and the agienic Laborateq may hare afferded yeu yo= first Over all view. By that time I didn't have to roam too mucho I knew pretty well who ma doing what and where they were being published. excellent indexes, j@nals, abstracts of bacteriology, chemical abstracts and Index Medicus. In that field them were But it had been a fast moving field from about the early 1920s. Oh yes-all the virus work came in, I want to tell you samething about Berry and the biolegical slant thatm were talking about a few minutes ago8 hope in your transcription of this you can bring it in in the proper p)ace. Berry had discovered scmething very close to what Avery, Colia MacLeod, and Haclyn M Carts had called a transforming factor-that is, they herd found that they co i d grow 8 pneplaococcus typ 2 ia a pneumococcus type 3 medium where the type 3 had grown, and the quality of the type 3 would go over into the type 2 form and r-inhlacquired characteristics, Well, new we know that that is a transference fram these nucleic atids, Berry had done the same thing with I

Page  319319 a vim8 that cau8es papillomas and a viscous kind of degeneration of cells. He transformed the di~ses by letting them w k together in an infected animal. He was iaterested in that fundasaentsp1 thing too, so he wasn't just clinical. + Oh no--ranything that I said that would hply that*md-this was off the tapearas in error. Although he assumed the burden of the abinistratien of the Depart- ment of Bmterig at Rocheater, he continued with his researches in the 0 r\ virus field. Oh -8, and hete been a very fine Dean at Hamard. Well, I think thatwe've gone a8 far aa we ought to go today,

Page  320320 Irve already indieakd that Uterest to-ie to go back from the vantage point of Reche@ter all the way into the 1920s and deal with your work in the field of bacteriology. I me certain thiw which when I nentioned than sure,wsren't in your mind at the time you did them, but taken together they lend themselves to a kind of organisation which mag be wholly-uweal.t it looks that way to someone like -elf whe -8 through the papers, Solpe of them we have already talked about--the early episodic -ut there is a growing 83mremss on your parti for the need for a ba8i8 in parasitology mong other things. there is tN8 trip to Cuba which I think you mRht to put in. .. * rr- I don't hiow its origi.~, '%aybe y ou'd cam ti eonnnent en that, and Well, in Rochester there was verylittle "materialw, as we celled it, in helminthology and /rotozolegy. 1m'"fectionsr d with pratesocl and h~lqninths eccur more in the southern tropical regions than they do in a salubrious, mnewhrst ern region like Rochester, but it was necessary, even without that current supply of material from the inhabitant8 in the district, to teach students about the exiatencc arad charircteristics of these organisms. Students need to be broadly educated no matter where they are and they need to be specifically educated if they go ints certain regie- where these organisms O~CUT in greater abundance* %re was ne ccllectim of slide8 of protozoa and the eggs of in- testinal worms in Rochester, and it's necessary to have a collection of slides that can be used over and over again that contain stained malarial parasites, stained amebae, stained babesia, stained spirilla. You need to have bottles and jars of feces suspended in formaldehyde s lution into which you can dhp and and take out a drop and look at the eggs of a parssit, or a uerm. These didn't * 0 Ip

Page  321321 exist in Rochester. I think through my friend Dro Harbert Charles Clark, Mrector of the Gorga8 Memorial Laboratory who roamed around the Caribbean and knew that part of the country very well from Panama to all the Islands, I got an invitation to go down to Cuba in the region under the control of the United Fruit bnpany. Dro Clark was the scientific adviser and medicalranager, really, of the United Fruit Ccanpany in the tropia#. The United Fruit Company was liberally interested In supp~rting studies on parasites because it kept their own laborers well, and it added to the increase in kaowledg.. 'hey had 80- very fine people on their staffo esatern end of Cuba, in Oriente Province, which has the mountains in it from which Castrm later came,, I waa invited to go to the United Fruit Company establishments in the To get to Orient6 Province I went through Havana becaaae Havana still re- nemhred Walter Bee nd William Crawford Gorgaro There were still living people in Havana who had worked with the Reed xellow Fever CdseAon in variaas ways, notably Aristidea Agrmoate who was very cordial and very afce to me. There was + also, as I recall it, Finlay w.8 the proof that the called it-was a Dr. Wo Ho Hofibrann in the Carlos Finlay hboratory. great old man of the region who long before the discovery, Aedes aegypti mosquito-or the the insect vector of y-ellow fever virtu, Finlay felt quite sure that that uas the mosquito that carried the disease, but he never could prove it, He couldn't prove it because there were certain things that had to be obeerosd before you could prove a successPul experiment. There's plwaya a pried of about twelve days between the time uhen a mosquito bites a patient and when it's infecztiou, That period was noticed by Hem R. Carter in the South of tho United States0 He thought that there was some important biological reason for the lag between the flrst case of yellow fever in a cunmunity and the

Page  322other CCLSBI) and that pried of lag until the next cast is tbe VIrus to multiply in the measquite and get up into the salivarg can be in ected into the next per sob^. Also Finlay didn't bo# certain periods in the infected indiviciuabs when the virw can J time for the glands where it that there were be obtained from the blood and other perids when the individual ire; still very sick, that you cantt get any virus at all. and it only lasts for a short time. I don't think you can get it before the third day, Those things Wal Reed and his associates proved. Walter Reed was $1 spurred mn to de, this work beeaascr in a sort of casual remark Walter bdts attentien to the virne pessibility had been arewed by Dr. Wolch who mentiened the work of Lldffler on foot and seuth disease at that time. He teld Walter Reed intscrence that the reasen yeu n*t find anything that you can see in the yellow fever blod is that the agent may be a filterable rirurr, and that wae what really turned the trick. Well, I went to Cub8 with a great load of paraphernalia for the collectioa of spcimens to bring them back for the teacking of my class. wa8 largely seme metal boxas full of bottles conMning ten percent formaldehyde solatiem, BP) attractavely put up that the Caatoaars Officer fn Havana thought I was trying ts smuggle drugs tnto the ceuntry, and I had a hard time getting through. He finally let me through. Ha didact take the paraphernalia away frm me. I saw Agraaoate and so~d other people inHavana for the few days I was there. one Of the advanta 8 af that meeting was that Dro Hoffmana gave sram egg8 of the Aedes mosquitlb that they had carried on f'rm the clays of Carlw Finlay. I was intereeted in having these eggs, though I didn't know what to do with them. I dried them en a piece gf paper, and I put them ia an envelope and carried them back to Reahester. After these mosquito eggs had been for mm anenths in the ice b@x in Rochester, I theught J*d bring them out, put they in This paraphernalia I) i 8 *

Page  323323 sane water, and see what would happen, Le and behold, they developed iato full fledged mosquitoes. I could watch the whole stage frrao the larva to the pupa te the adult. studying the biQnwlics in an amateurish way1 I kept a colony of these mosquitoes going fer three years, or mi 4 It WPI quite interesti g. 9 At that time I had this stop metian picture camera with a microscope going and I photographed the whole life cycle of that mosquito frem the egg, the hatching, the larva4 stage and the like; in fact, I got so that I could tell whc the changes were going to occur, when the lama was going to change inte a pup I could dip him out h5th a little dropper-er ahen 82 pupa was geing to give off a nyroph, notion picture of a full life cycle ef an lneect of this microscopic eise. 1 It change8 color and activity. That film, I think, wag the firat didn't do anything nore with It, except publish it, and it got into the Eastinan KO- teaching fib series with a little descriptive manual that I dreu up for it. Tbese mre colored fib? No, black and white. I fed these mosquitoes en myself fer abetat three year^. I bad them in long tall jars with water and grass in there, and I covered the jar with a silk stocking provided by ny secretaryo ad fifty or sixty aosquitses would light and have a good feedo I could draw ry ar~ out without killing them againat the silkg I would cut she feet off of the stocking There is in the teacher's w~d that u8mt With the fila, rlides or pictures that indicated when they were feeding. Was this you? Yea. I doalt believe that anybody else cared to do that, I don't believe

Page  324I I tried to get anybody. It B not ccaafortable, but it doesn't hurt too lauch. n Well, to go back to Cuba, I There PI just one thiw--Dr. HoffiRann speaks here in his letter of transmission experjmsnts. Africa, F, F, Russell had made a collection of American and African eggs about this time also, That's the International Reckefeller Foundatimn group. Dr. HofPnann uritest " Yeu must have talked to him about it, There's sane questien about "1 alusys planned to make transmission experiments., .." Hofhana was planning this? I a Be 8 rather mixed up in here because hots trying to do transxnissicPn experi- mente with the different spiroohetes and to observe the development in the moa- quite. He says that it is msg to do. This ita in the pried whan yellow fever get off the track with Hideye Neguchi. Do you want to go into that? Well, Noguchi, the supposedly great gedue, waa at the Rockefeller In- stitute about this time-or a little sooner, sometime before. dates, but it was earlier than this dat. ip Hefhnn's letter. into -uayaquil after having studied the disease horn as Weills Disease, called 1 forget the Noguchi had gone b 1 henorrhagic jaundice, and in blood iron a p~rsoa supposed a Leptospira which he called ;uayarquil he innoculated inte guinea pigs some to have yellow fever, and he found this organism, Leptospira ietereh8morrhagi.s in the blood ef the *\ - guinea pig. thing to l at, bright, shining under the dark field, and it spias. It har two nicely rurvsd ends, curved in opposite directions. Neguchi thought that This spiral, c spirochetal rrganism, is an extraordinary-ly lovelr A. \

Page  325325 was surely the cause of yellow fever, and it was heralded all mer the world 88 the cause of yellow fevero Hofi'eaann here is speaking of transmitting bpto- by mosquitoes, but he says,"I nust say that I do not believe that the Leptospira .icteroides is a erpeciflc germ." There was a lot of skepticislr of Noguchits findings, but Noguchi had such strong backing from Flexmr and was such a world renowned figure He was in the height of faane-based very largely on incorrect work and curiously uarepeat8ble \ observatione-and was the great authority on yellow fever, on polio, and s9d- fly fevers. People began to attack hias Russell may have been looking for sme of these things in Africa, but the other aaen-Adrian Stokes was one of the inportant onas opposing Noguchi and I curiously enough# although I didntt knor much about it, never believed in Noguchits doing thia. Noguchi made a racciw with leptospira against yellaj fever, Cross, was drafted from the laboratory in Baltimore to the Rockefeller group 8tudying yellow fever in Vera Crus. Vera Crus for two weebr-well, f That happened before I went to Rochester. My dear associate and assistan,,, Howard by vaccinated him, and he hadn*t been in little ov0r two weeks he died of yellow fever. There W(LB much skepticism of Noguchirs + uork, bat Noguchi didn't give in, although the criticism mounted, and people were not able to confirn hie work. Roguehi was dealing only with Weil'sbsease, this hemorrhagic Jaundice, but e Some wise d ctor in Ecquador said that R that caaaaent made no impression on people. Then Noguchi went back to the Gold Coast in Africa, and there he tried to repeat his own worko He couldn't do ita and there he died of yellow fever. The supposition is that he killed himself. time OR NogucN18 heado This happened a little earlier than this work of Everything toppled down about that HofFmann, but Hoff'mann is naturally skeptical, as a lot of as were.

Page  326You didn't intend to obtain eggs this wax? This was an accident. Hoffwann raid,"Do you want saw eggs?" I just ~aid,~Yes.~ I up8 interested in everything that would gmr. R I had never cultivated a A mosquito, so to apak, and Iwas very interested inseeing all the fornu and transitions. Yea kept the colony alive for three mar80 Yes, at least three yearll0 Wow do you want to go on to Orienh Province? I ~ent out in Oriente Province, and they gave me a lahoratory in a building. They let me roam the area to collect what I could8 and I studied them BLI I collected them, Whitmore who was studying Black Water Fever which is a disease I got interested in in kama, a amplieation of malaria, laboratory in a building-ody a table and a mioroscope, Ih friendly chameleon used to come and sit on the window screen and stay Kith me while I was working at the laboratory-good companionship. my little bottle@ of fomldeQn3e and collect feces0 collect ?)loode found in the laborers there from canton, and they have curiously enough very abundant infection with an intestinal worm called Clonorchis sinensis, I got a lot of rare specimens, hook worm,-hchuris, etc. All the wow were there and very niee collecting, There was a very interesting man there named Dro Eugsne Re I had a very interesting sort of a I would then go out in the country with 'hen with slides I would I got all types of malaria parasite-the quartan form was to be I think I stayed there rbout a month. I caae batk with my tin boxes and all

Page  327321 q bottles 131, fdidattwant to risk any sora customts trouble, When I wen: through Santiago on the way back I was offered no end of very good rm, but I wouldn't take any because if I brought it in, the custas's fellow In New York would confiscate (31 my stuff if I tried to bring in any rumo That uas a greal disappointment because the Custans Officer in New York-I remember nou I had a these boxes and bsttles, and the Custcra Inzrpector ~aid,~Ita not going to look at thoae thingso I know how hard you beys have to work down there In that heat I think you can go right through without any inspection," I was held up for possible drug peddling going in, and I innocently kept myself from bringing back any ram on my return, but I had a fine collection for the teaching of a clm8. I wobdered whether there was In exisknce at thi8 tiue aqg regulations governin4 the introduction of thir materiao NO, they were all dead. There are very strict regulations now. We had a great deal to do with it in the Army. We brought in infectious material from the Pacific regim. There are ruleso You have to get permission. The Public Hdth Seniee has rules about bringing in those things, There are sane items you eantt bring in, You can** bring in foot an euth disease, or some of thoae other violent diseases of snilaals, but jumping ahead when we worked on biological f warfare, we had some very secret stations where they had special penaission, like an island in the St* Lawrence River, Qr au island off Montauk Point, where you could do sme experimental work with live material that they wouldn't allow in the contiuental United States. This also illustrate8 the field trip approach too-that is, the relatiomship of the field to the laboratory and the necessity for going to the field.

Page  328Oh yes-the whole thing is one piece of fabric. It's got different designs n on it, but it's all connected with the straadso I don't know that field work tetday is done to the 88188 extent that it was then- like your trip to Cuba+ Oh yes. meld work is-well, with the Typhus Cdssion we had an enomow amount, of field work, even epidemic and murine typhus and-do you mein for a professor to go to a place? Unless he ha8 a prrpjeat, he doemtt do much, collectiorrsuwell, everybody WQS collecting, and I suppose everydecent soh001 bas a good collection. You have to have boxes and bsxes of the me thing so that you can-wells the iddl ir provide every student with a box of maybe thirty# or forty slides, and then you have an endless amount of xiaterial in ugs for worms and eggs, but they're all dead. The results of this trip1 know it aided you in Rochester ultimately in tern of parasitology. Iwas always interested in parasitologg, as I told you before, thr ugh my k grandfather and his early observations in malaria, the fact that malaria was common in Hew Orleans0 I had seen parasites back as early as I can remember, so it seemed a natural part. department, teaching a vital subjecrte This was an effort to increase the resources of my Ultirnstsly you brought in a man to work in this field.

Page  329329 Oliver R. McCoy. Where did you find him? 1'11 have to look up the papers for the origin of thato I way have met McCoy at a meetingp orwasn*t McCoy connected uith the H~pkit~~ before he cam to Rochester? I think SO. I think thatwas the connection-the School of Hygiene, or stmething like that,, He was a very bright young mn, a very nice person, and we were very glad that he wa~i willing to came, He had a deep interest in trichinosis at one tine and the general infection of animalse States-people eating raw pork, spection was not sufficient to prevent the consumption of in2'ected pig meat, but I don't remember the details of how McCoy cape, unless the papers are in the departmental filese Trichinosis occurs la the United It OCCOTS very often In places where meat in- It's not in the pap raa and that'rs why I asked the question, save that$ he did a lot of work once he wa8 set up and established in the laberatory, He published a lot of papers. oh yea. Bad I think it way alas a OUT department Daintained continuing con- a tact with the Gorgrs Msaoriol Instftuteccthrugh McCoy who waa llsade a consultant, r\ Through McCo too, but as I say, I waej always connected with the Gorgas i Memorial Institute.

Page  330330 Yes, surely. I wonder whether this Cuban trip and subsequent developments in parasitology are, in part, some of the seeds far the developaent of the Academg of Tropical Diseases too. Ira: BUTB it was. As I say, I have always been interested in tropiczl diseases because of my origins in New Orleans, a?y grandfatherts interest and thl occurrence there of both malaria and yellow fever, fever epidemic i bw Orleona. when the yellow fever broke ont that summer. fever epidemic in Hew Orleaw, but to get to the Thacher School I had to go through a very rigorous series of quarantine procedures because people were as alarmed of yellow fever then a8 they were back in the 1870~~ Then on 1905-1901 the Texans set up a guard on the Louisiana border so that no traius, nor anybod; could get through there. train in New Orleans and the dsors of the day coach on which I was on my way te, North Carolina were nailed sh t, and scresna nailed over the windows. I didn't get out of that coach until I got up to Saphire, or somewhere in North Carolina where I had towait a period befere I could go on. I had (D wait in quarantine to see if I had yellow fever. go around by Chicago and down through Sante Fe, Hew Mexico and Pasadena and on I was in the last yellow In 1905, 1-s on my way to the Thacher School + That was, I think the last yellow They' stone them, or shoot them. I was put on a 2; P t 4 Then to get or, to the Thacher School I had to to the town on the coast north of Pasadena-'*ve forgotten what it is nou Eanta - Barbad, to Ojai. It was a long, round about tripo Well, I never forgot that sor of live experience with yellow fever. Then i too, it uas very natural for ne to talk to people about tropical diseases wherever I lnst anybody interested, When I cane here in the Hational Research Council in 1932, I met 3~. Earl B. McKinley who was the Dean of the Gorge Washingten Universkty Schcol of bdicine. He had been in herto Rico, and he he z o 2

Page  331331 definite interests fnt'ropical cr medicine. He started a now wtrich became the Academy of Tropical Medioine, The idea was that we were going to collect twenty million dollars and have a great tropical medicine establishment in the United Staters, but it never got to that point, We got a charter, and I think I was a eharter nanber of the organizatlvn-about 1933,msn't it? member still of the American Aasociation of Tropical Medicine, and I know a good many people living-and many others who have gone on too-who are experts in th$i field. I am an emeritus 1 I think, if' 'tmr. not mistaken, that the National Research Council sponsored a survey of tropical diseases back in those days. Haybe so, but mre recrently still the National Besearch Council-1 have a big book downstairs-had a cummission through the Epidemiological Board and other8 to do scnusthing about tropical medicine in thia country. After World War II, most of the medical sools and the universities dropped their courts88 in tr pica1 medicine and weren't producing people who knew about ite It looked 0 R a8 if Tropical Medicine wa8 in a parlow atate,, 1 don't think you want to go into that now. No, except that one-well, in part., the basis for McKinleyfs drive for an 71 association was this surqpq that he had made a8 of that time. - The one we made was in the late 19408, in the 1950sr I have P huge copy of it downstairs TTropical - HeaBth, A Report on a Study of Heeds and Resources (Washington, 1962), 540.7 I It11 bring it up tomorrow, or 1'11 go get it now, if you want me to. Bo, I was just thinking of tropical mgdicine in thoere times. Your own interest -

Page  332332 dates back quite deeply, but other people were becoming interested too, nvt merely for collections; in part, for collections of material-you know. Groups met-the American Association of Bacteriologists. The American Association of Tropical Medicine was existing then too, and nearly all medical societies in the South had papers presented on some disease of a tropical$ parasitic nature, and the American Medical Association, I thiak, had a section on it, They do now. This is a phase of your own interest that Is constant. go back to your laboratory, sme over-views as to what you were up too 'ne is thigl thermo- - chemical investigation of immunological reactions, a study you did 19204922, but you didn't publish this pper until you got to Bochester PHeat - from Reactions Between Antigens and Antibodies: Special Reference to Diphtheria Toxin and Antitoxin" 22 Proceedings Society fer Experiaentd Biology and Medicine 24648 (192SL70 I firxished the work at Rochester that I dared to publish. I finished it in about 1923, 192i4, I think, in the laboratory, in the anirnsrl house that was there. As I recall, it was tetanus toxin and antitoxin that I was mixing to Bee whether heat was produced. eimply observation of the production of the heat, but it was partly to see whether a differential ricrocslorbeter would work in such a situationo The deeper scientific part of the toxin-antitoxin reaction I could determine the nolecular weight of tetanus toxin. I think that was the deep interest that I had in the problem. It did produce heat. The deeper interest in it was not I that I had an idea that if I could measure the heat f- I wrote a paper on it and gave a laolecular weight that is Much too law. This is adapting a piece of equipment to neasurement-that is, HiUfs.

Page  333333 Yes, A. V, Hillts differential microcalorimeter, and the interesting thing about that piece of equipent was that you had a mea- of measuring the heat in undetenninable mixtures in such a way that everything balances out, erxcspt the reaction that you're interested in, the reaction of the grwth of bacteria, or the reaction between the toxin and antitoxin. in them is the same, except one of thea will. have the reaction which you*re interested in. happens in these two flasks is related to the reaction in which you're inter- ested. Everything else balances oato Yon have two flaekso Everything The differential part of the process simply mans that whatever Well, all sorts of things happened with that apparatus. I built the one I wed whichwas rather difficult, and I learned so much that I can*t call bacteriology. of heat, about temperature measurementas but the most fundamental thing I ebserved, I didn't pay any attention to-I found @ut that Faraday and others had done it, measure electrical currents, a very fine instrument, and I had it attached to a long thin wire. ealorimter on q laboratory table, wires one day, and I walked around the table where it was, twirling the wire a little bit, like a row that you skip. I walked lrm Worth to South-er East to We, it doesntt matter-and while I did that, 1 happened to notice the mirror of this galvanometer wasderflectlng a little bit to one direction as I walked around, w eW. say, fror! lOorth to Soathe When I came back, it was deflecting in the other direction. thought mybe ray galvanometer was wrong, or else I was electrical, or something. It turned out that what I was actuak3.y doing was cutting the lines of magnetic I learned all about specific heat. I learned about conductivity I had a very sensitive galvanometer which 18 an apparatus to Itm8 up on the wall, and I had a wire caning down to the I just casually pioked up om of these I Iwas quite excited about that because I

Page  334334 force on the earth with a copper wire. This ia an electrical notor, so I dis- covered, incidentally to a study of bacteria, the very fundamental thing that Faraday 8nd others had discevered; that by whirling a coil in a magnetic field, pu get a current, 8 modern generator. Ym never know when these things will turn up. Iwas a good many years too late on that one4 Part of the joy, I suspect, of working in a laboratory are the surprises that you bump into-arentt they? Yes. But you changed frcm this tetanurs tan antitoxin study to the studv of growing bacteria itself. Part of the rationale in the article is the way in which physiologists generally have been using this approach and have been o'serlookiq the bacterial a8pects,/-nBacterial - Galorismtry. 1. General Considerations. Description of Differential Microcalorheter" 105-122 (February, 192917. 17 Journal of Bacteriology I ddt think that was any major thing in my case. I saw the application of that. The physiologist8 had been overlooking bacteria in everything they did to such an extent tha y friend in ~altimore, Admont Clark, thought he had dis- carered what turned out to be insulin, until I s wed hin that he had a colon bacillus in his perfursion fluid. He had a Mg perfusion apparatus there in the hi; f laboratory, with a heart, a pumping heart, a perfused heart attached to a pancreas in this machine(, He would perfuse it, pump a salt solution through there, Re put 80- sugar, glucose, in salt solutioa, and it went through the pancreas an nts the heart, and the glucose got wed up, Well, of all the foods that are delectable tc the colon bacillus is glucme. + Adaont Clark didn't

Page  335335 realize that he had a contaminated, wonderfully vigoroua culture of colon bacillua in his material that was using; its glucorre upI He thought that it wats the internal secretion of the pancreas working through the heart muaele thatwm using the sugar. Actually though, he was shed of Sir Frederick Go Banting and Charles H. Best, and if he ceuld have carried that through clean before his death, which occurred about that time, he would have been ahead of Banting and Best in the disoovery of insulin. I8 that going in here-all those voices? I don*t think this will pick it up0 ,7 'well, physiologists didn't know much about bacteria, "hey couldn't see them even when they're there by th illions, when the material theywere working with got turpid, there had been ma 8alled ther~rog.nesi8 is that bales of hay ferment and oatch fire from the heat produced by the bacteria. la uhat makes I, thing warm to the touche These are very old observations,, As I recall it, Ott. Heyerhof, who was a great physiologist theorited on the heat production of bacteria 88 a measure of the metabolism of the organism, This is the stme a8 human being heat production which is going on all the he3 keeps OUT body temperature what it is, and is related to your metabolism. really studied the relationship of heat production to the growth curve of bacteria, so I thought that x'd try to do it by getting a very sensitive method of measuring temperature, CBacterial Calorimetry. 11. Relatiouship of Heat Productisn to Phases of Growth of Bacteria" (February, 192917, At thetmae time I had to devise a Ream of counting the 9 3 7 I= interested in the heat production of bacteria because observations en heat productio o A great law of what18 Everybody know8 that fermentatisn in jars of preserves i Nobody had 17 Journal of Bacteriol,. 123-140

Page  336the number of bacteria present and relating the heat production to the growth curve. I think I had charts in that paper. That paper shows, I think, that the younger cultures of a bacterla-when thagtra in 8 very active growth, logarithmic phase-produce m~re heat than af'terwards, though they continue to produce heat. I studied heat production is yeast. The yeast hao a budding ph888, and the cycle of heat production is more variable in yeast. It waxes and wanes, goes up atxi do- Well, that worked-that differential microcalorhieter. I haven't seen them for a long the. I did that work when--1929? A little bit earliero 1 should have gone en with it, i had been a good chemist, or a good 1 biologid chemist. Iove often thought of the things I ought to have done. This is a whole series of paperl, one in particular with a wewan-mees0 That*$ Dr. Rush Rhees'a daughter. - rHenrietta Rhees7. - She et a master's degreee She got a masterts degree out ef ret bite fevero ked on tNskaper. You had general considerations as to what you were going to do and the first publication was this e cwe business. Later there appeared a note on the applicatien of Buchamnls formula, a fornula that pu used in the paper4 Calculating growth rate. Righ_t-this note was on the application of that formula to heat productiou in bacterial culture by N. C. Wetael who didntt particularly care for the mathe-

Page  337337 A4 Well, I had to get sane help0 Buchan's formula has an integral in it, as 1 I remember, and I wasn't any good at calculus. I've forgotten who helped ae. gis criticism was hefillminating in terns of the formula used, but there ware three especte-of this pr6blem which yeu set aside in the original stud3 with Henrlettai$hees, and thzare the mesaurment of the, sieea of bacteri9 pch.owth in Size of Hicrodrganisns Measured from Motion Pictures. I. Yeast, Sacchareregces cereVIsia@P 1 Journal of Celldhr and Comparative Physioloq 387407 (June, 1932); "Growth in Sise ef MicrocOrganismrr Measured from Motion Pictures. 11. Bacillus megatheriumW - Ibido 409427 (June, 1932) ; "Growth in Size of Micre-Organim Heatarced from Wotian Pictures. III. Bacterium coli" 2 Jonrnal of Cellular and Comparative Physioloa 329448 (Dec-br, 1932),7* the deterwination of t-ace arda, and chemioal studies. of their raetabolitq. These ware subs3uently devel.hey shnw a .deeper. c6ncern fer bacteria 88 bacteria quite _apart fran their applioation, cfinical utility-a growj.-ncsrn with bacteria. Well, Just the rmeaaurslnent of the heat of bacteria-I odd have carried it furthero For instance, the amount ef the calories liberated by, say, the decmpositien of a gram of glucose by yeast might be different from the same thing done by bacteria, but I didn't get down to it,, If the heat liberate dig different, it means that the basic chemical reaction is different, It would mean that the bacteria would have a different cycle going through the decopapo- sition of glucose, some simple businasa that uould have been entirely wrong bscauae now the cycle ef carbowrate laetabelimn in a body is more coapicated than the erbits of the If I had tackled it at that ilae, I would have come out with k 18 ib

Page  338338 heavenly spheres. It 'I terrific 6 The last paper you publish is on caxbobydrafas, and I think-it s in this stream, v I mentioned the factors that you set aside, measur@ment of the sizes* The problen is how do you meaeure the size, and that brings in another aachineo Yes, the sizes were measured with this time lapse photograpMc notion picture apparatw that Clifton T, ttle and I deeised, - TaAn Apparatus for Motion Photomicrography of the Growth of Bacteria" 4 Journal sf Bacterloloa 157-170 (September, 192727. at verg high magnification. i It really was a delicate epparatas because you could work I think we let this machine go all day and all night with an oil iaaaersion lena and with very little change in the focus. had the whole apparatus encloaed in a carefully regulated temperature-coot$$led brjt so that the amas and metals of the laicroseope didn't expand, or contract I and move the ~OCUS. I had five, or sfx thousand feet of fils that all got burned up in qf Master% House fire at Yale in 1933. I lost them all-all my boeks and everything else was burned up in that fireljust before we moved into the Master'8 Houseo Before that, fortunately, Dr, Edward F. Adolph, the Associala professor of F%ysiologJr, at Rochester, was a biologist, a mathematician, and interested in the gruwth of hlwan beings as well as all growing things. He saw these motion pictures of growing bacteria and yeast, and WB aet about to measure them, What we did was to prodect the image on a acreen an ust measure the length and the breadth with a caliper, We herd long tables of those measurment~~ Then there's the formula-frm the length and the breadth you can calculate the volume and the surface, We did it with the bacteria, the yeast, the spere formation, r"Cyto1ogical - Changes During the Forslation of the Endospore in Bacillus neea- +

Page  339339 thorium" 25 Journal of Bacteriolojg 261-274 (Harch, 193317a with bacteriophage and megatherim - rWhangea in the Shape and Size of Bacterim coli and Bacillus megatherim under the influence of Bacteriophage -A Hotien Pholamicrogrcrphic Analysis ef the Mechanism of Lysis" (February, 193317* have gone mn to geneties because tu8 paper oamegakherium with bacteriophage was accepted finally by the, Journal ef Experimental Medicine Just before I was going down ts Waehingten with the National Research Ceuncil. Dre Peyton Row s? Journal (df Experimenfd. Medicine 279-304 ThatLs where, if I hadntt stopped about that time, I might W(L% the edltor, and he saw those peculiar fom in the pictures and asked me why I hadn't gone on to fellow thasa forms to see whether there uas a genetic factor thatwas determining the variation. then, and had no more chanceo Well, I was finished wit it by life got a little complexo There was a series of papers on the growth and the siae-bacteria, yeast, negatheriumn colon, endosperoo That's a very inter- ostinp; series because the publicatims contained slides to illustrate, and a visual representation 5.8 SQ much better, Ye8* These papers are still being noticed, Every now and then I find sme- body reviewing the growth mf microorganisms that cites these papers* The last one I bumped into-acspjr of which I don't have here-I couldntt find ito come tm--and this wa8 the effect of carbohydrates on bacterial growth and the devefopuent of infe~tion-EU6~ - rHThe Effect of Carbohydrates on 6ac terial Itm not saying that it isntt here, It night be in sone file I have yet to Growth, and the Development crf Infections" 12 Bulletin of the New York Academy of Medicine 2781a84 (193617.

Page  340That's a very small thing. That was at the Mew York Acadeny of Medicine. Dr. Herman Mosenthal invited me to do that. He was interested in diabetes, and people with diabetes and high blood sugar have endless boils. Job with their boilso The question presented was is high blood sugar related to susceptibility to bacterial, particularly etaphylococcd, infection? My con- clusion was that it wasn't, but I don't know that I ever did any seriaus work on the problem. They can beat I know that your own tirag was cut to pieces in terms of other work. As you put i one the, yon were sucked into the aby8s of administration and away frola the lab~ratory, but it ma83011 to ae that this series of papers does lend itself to a kind of corrtinama. I don*% krtow that I used the word "sucked intow* I think I Just consciously steppGd into it because, a8 I told yout I got satisfactions out of that kind ef work that I thought Igd never get out of research work. I wondered what relationship there wae between the work that you did at the bench and the judgments that you exercised at the National Research Councilr-aw at all? 7 Oh constantlyo Otherwise, you couldn't deal with the problems of research i projects, as we call them, when you're a director of a and granting organisa- Cien. You either have to know what the man is talking about EraR the first, or you ham to bw how to find out abut it. The more basic experience you haw, the 1088 you have to look up. I wondered also about the time you apeat as referee on the Council of pharmacy and Chemistry of the American Medical Asziociatiob

Page  341341 That was all educational, Ysu don't get paid in a job like that, but you get a lot of information that is bound to be useful in similar situstiorno I wonder if it added anything in tern of your thinking about bacteria? It did because the kinds of things I did on the Council of Phamacy and Chemistry often had to de with chemotherapy, like the chemotherapy of urinary tract infections, like bacteribphage 'sccinss, Bhings like that. It was all to~ether. The Council on Pharmacy and Chemistry didn't put me en the problen of the chemistry of drugs because Iwasn% a chemist* ,R The latter I had reference to before we turned this machine ow-I can't put my hands 0n it at the moment4.s an indication that future development is in chemotherapy-that is, a8 of the time of the latter in your thinking. 0 Xes# but, curiously enough, chemotherapy f bacteria at that time into the PI 1920s was thought to be a hopeless businese,, You wouldn't be able to find any drag that could kill a bacterium without killing the hosto antibiotics, before the aulphonmider. therapeutict advanae cam at the time when Erlich developed salvraraan, the silver bullet, where he put the arsenic in combination with an organic radiaal. That looked like a great burst, the chemical cure of syphilis, and the thought was that a great many other things were going to be owed by newly discovered drugs, but the hope8 were dashedo until later in the 19208, or waybe even later in the 1930s-when the salphonamides and penicillin came in, antibiotics and the sulphur drugs, much to the, amazement of everybocty. All af this ia before It w dost a dead end, The great There was quite a period in there-from 1910 I did ham a connection at the Co ncil of Pharmacy and Chemistry with claims i

Page  342with antiseptic substances. Laboratories. on it at Rochester. I got a grant from the Abbott Laborat~riss~ and Birkhaug worked eci mrcurochrme. Douglas also worked on mercurochrme. Everybody was always testing thing8 to 6ee whether they would have any effect8 but we didntt have anything like the huge screening pregrama that ore being used now for cancer chemotherapy, testing everything, whether there is amy rhyme, or reason for testing it or not, to see whether it will do anythingo One of them was mercurochrome from the Abbott Mercurochrome was of sufficient interest to persuade UB to work You malm comments in letters I have read to other professors at Pale abotit the difficulties inherent in the whole process of purification, the kind of prsblem %ton bumped into in an effort to purify toxinse Mo~Q~ Eatora came there with some interest in purification of toxins, but I was interested too, and I did everything I could to favor and support his work en attempts ta purif'y the diphtheria toxin and tetanua toxin. The influence on fiton, and on me too, came from a remarkable man wh0 wa8 en Dr. Zinsserts staff, Jc Howard Muellsr. Howard Mueller was s Ph D chemist in Zimserts medical, bacteriolegical. laboratory, and his line of work had been to purify the factors in peptom solutions and bacterial laedia that were responsible for stiurnlating growth, He found copper compounds of great importance for stimulating growth* ~e was up ia ~inssertrr laboratery trying to purify growth factors in bacterio- logical media. Eatoa wasthere, and I wa8 in and out of that laboratory$ 80 it was a subject in which we =re interested. diphtheria toxin and the tetanus toxitb ton did very geod work on the There are tu@ other items about this time-one of them is this research etudyj Gonococcus and Gonococcal Infections.

Page  343343 This was undertaken as a result ef connections foraed during the war time with preventive medicine in the Office of the Surgeon Cieneral, the Public Health Service, and the Ameriean Social Hygiene Asaaciatioa. We'd been talking abut gonococcal infectiens very seriausly ever since the venereal disease problem c o~md into ~ur field of preventive medicine during the war. At that tine8 the gonocscc~ infections were very prevalent. Later in World War I1 they fcund penicillin and the sulphonaides would take care of venereal disease^. There had always been a relation between the Social Hygiene Association and the Army Medical Se-ce with venereal disease, and this published study is a part of the result of that asaociation. Whe supported this? lhn*t they acknowledge a grant her e? rher Well, we had a grant t o this work. 14 was necessary to bring to dd the knowledge of gonococcal infection, and this is not 8 laboratory study in any sense. This is a literary studyr Right-a research study into the literature. Yeso We tried te aisess the statements we made, and theywere full of controversial points. This report has got a big bibliography. t If I could close that off. If i do that, will it hear? It won't cut off? lb, it wontt cut it offo Do you want me to turn it off? I wai going to say something inpmper. In the 19208-Tom Perran.... Is that off? No, Tom Parran -.. mr. Thamas Parran, Surgeon 'eneral, UeSo Public Health Se~ice7 -

Page  344344 were others. I think there were five or six other laboratories invelvsd in this cooperative study working in this field, with case historiea and the like. It Yes, the Social Hygiene Association-we had most of our meetings down in the officeo r director sf the medical activities of the Anerican Secial Hygiene Association and secretary of this casnnittee.1 I see here that the National Research Ceuncil gave a thousand dollars for the support at this work. I think thatwas a big sum in those dayso We started to met in New York in49338 and we had most of our rneetiings in the effices of the American Social Hygiew Association. It had very high purposes. I never ared very much for the point of vim of either Dr. William F. Snuw, or Dro Walter Clarke in these matters beaase they were sentisaental, emotional and not really scientific, and this wag an attempt to bring scientific thinbring into their affairs, and if youfll turn that off, I1lJ tell yeu what I saide Walter Clarke waa medical director, li. a what interested me wa8 that with all the other things you were doing, like the revision of Xirurser 8 book. o o . It finished the revision. This is 1933~, But the galleys =re coming ina

Page  345345 Yes, and Iwas hater of Trmbu3.l College, I becase Dean of the School of Medicine at Yde in 1935, so %hi8 overlapped a good many things. report togethe a8 hard work and took a lot of time. Gomn measles, and I didntt know I had it. didntt observe my body particularly even in the ahewer bath. rash which I hadntt seen0 I only noticed that Iwasn't quite right wherr, I first put ngr head en the pillm, and I had the usual enlarged posterior auricular glands. When you have German nieaelea, the lymphnedes enlarge back of your ears, Irmember I had one meeting with thia committee in New York, it, and my eyes-I had a sort of conjunctivitis. I had ne particular rash eta my face. way over in a corner by a window while we hd th3.s meeting. After the meeting some one said to -,"'You must have had an awful party last night1 You look as if youtd been on a binge for a week," Putting this In the COUTI. of it I got + Iwrs working late at night and I developed thier I had to attend I went down to the hericon Social Hygiene Association's Offices and sat All my high purpase and the sacrifice of my comfort to attend a Ir.eeting, and I was accused of having a hangover. b There'8 one other piece Af business I want to get in here that occurs about this time-this beok and the circumstances under which it was donas ,, This book you're showing me is the subject and author Index of the volumes - of the Journal ,of Sacteriology fraa volume 1, 1916, t@ volume 30, in 1935. Interesting to nete on the title page is not snly ray name, but it acknowledges the assistance of Hr. Austin E, Anderssn who was a bursary student. I told you about that bursary aid pregran An the collegoe, 'This wor was done in 1936 and 1937, published in 1937, and it'8 all the listings of everything, a very useful. index, 4 I don% really know now why I did it, except that it's the kind of a

Page  346346 chore I wmld do. told ysu I got in trouble because although I knew that you should have only one entry on a threo by five card8 I got so tired making these entriee-I think there a,m ten thousand the revised 8th edition of the textbook which is a very long index. tired doing this index that I put several entries on a single card and gam qself more trouble than I would have had, if I hadn't done that foslish thing. It was extremely hard. Ird never inade an index before, and I them in here, er smthing like that. I made the index of 4 I got so Pair indicated that. e o 0 u May I say one thing about this? Yau make an index of a number of vol.ulliss of a scientific journal like this, and you think a great deal about the subjects that you put on the pap educational to 8 great extent,, You indicated to ne, I think, ualktqghrod the stacks downstairs -- that this was done e-Teninas at Trmbull Collz, - This was done mostly in the evedngs. I think I worked an it, as I would a thing like this, at odd moments in the day tbe, Sundays, but ft was done much at night in my office at Trumbull Collegeo atme extension of the main Master's House, and students could see me working there. The Masterwas available by the noms of the system, as well as in gly case by my own personal interest in these young men, to the stud@ who wanted ts talk, *til om or tu, in the- morning, I learned sone very ostsnishing case histories of young people growing Up0 Tho Master's affice was in a little ,' They were able to tap on my window pane, come in and sit for hours Same of them you could help, I thinkwe*va go_nes far 69 we oat to go today,

Page  347347 Yeaterdr~we tried to put your .scientific work in sane perspective, sone orgag- zatioa. on it, it seemed to lend itself to organization. There18 ow other problem It waa quite arbitrary fraar my point of view. except that looking back which appeared in a little study you publishad on rat e. bite fever whiChWa8 -- kind of rare, or was, in fact, - raro. It had certain contiwing vitality subsequentq at Pale, and this - is the early work with Dr. Bdward G. Nugentts patient at Rochester, I thought we night take that up st today /%at - Bite Fever, Rsport of a Case with Demonstration of the Causitive Organism and Its Uses in the Treatment of Paresis" 27 New Pork State Journal of Medicine 1113-1116 (Octeber, 192717. This is another problem that I got inte became something happened to turn the organism up in my laberatoryo It wasn't a deliberate search for the organism of rat bite fever. ef Dr, %rani G. Nugent in 1926, It began with the study of the blood of I patient I think Dro Nugent had a suspicion that it was rat bite fever, but he didn't find ito We didntt find the organism in the patfentga blood either. It's difficult to find in the blood of a human being. I imoculated, iQcted blood into a guinea pig, and ten dap, or so, later when the pig was sick, a drop of its blood under the dark field of the microscope shared this little bit of a spiral organism of very active motion with thru *e or four coils of spirals in its body characteristic of the ofm of an erganism known as Spirillum minus; in other words Spirochaeta nereus muris, the organism of rate bite fever. '\ lL Natural I tried to cultivate it and study it, but I neve d was able to 3 I cultivate it, or grow it in artificial medium, The questionwas haw to prove

Page  348348 that this orgauim was the timie the treatment of syphilis of the central nervous system by inducing another fever, a febrile disease, in the patied was a ccmmon practice, by the injection of erganism into human beings. things as emulsions of typhoid bacilli to produce a fever. We didn*t undertake ause of rat bite fever in human beings. At that ii; They did this They di t by giving such .k to do that in a patient, unless you had some meana of curing the patient of the artificially produced dieease. Well, rat bite fever in the human being is easily cured by injections of the antisyphilitic drug rrsphewmine; a8 a llistter of fact, patiembs develop a rash all over the body, They get sore eyese `Pheycbvelop a huge chancre-like ulcer at the point of inrroculation, but when you give ars- phemnine, it wipes it cill off the patient just as if you did it with a sponge, so we felt perfectly aafe with this man to whom we gave artificially induced rat bite fever. He developed all the symptoms and all the pathological con- ditionso Thatwas an experiment which fulfilled Kochb postulates. We had an organism that you could get out of a patient, and when you put it back into a patient, you reproduced the disease and got the organism backo That was the subject of the paper that was published on it first. all the literature I could find on rat bits fever, PRat Bite Fever in the United Statern 3 International ~linics (kist. Series) 235-253 (~eptember,l931~. It's known as "Sodokum in Japan, br Indiao It occurs nore frequently in Japan than it did in the United States, and Atm mrprired that it doesntt eccur =re Later I published a long review of anong the Negroes who live in rat inf`ested slumse This erganism had an interesting connection with my beginning at Yaleo When a new professor comes in, they have a meting of the faculty-I suppose in many places they do the amm-and the incoming professor gives a lecture, or a

Page  349349 talk, or a demonstration on something ia which he i currently interested. on a demonstration on rat bite spirochetes, spirillum in tho blood in the ampi- theater at Yale 86 people could look at it in the dark field* it, and in the audience uas th powerful Professor sf bdicine, my friend, Francis 0. Blake, who had already published a paper on a very variable strepto- coccust Streptobacillus neniliformis, a8 the cauw of rat bite fever. I put 4 I talked about i i Mentim of it is in here, I thinke Blah thought it was a streptothryx, but this is a very plemorphic strepto- COCCUS. Have I got the name of it in there? Number 7-this is the larger study, He published, I think, in1924, o case which had come up in Bosten, or which appeared to haw cme up in Bostono He published in the ournal of Experimental edie* a paper an the Wtiology af Rat Bite Fever" in 1916. Yes, in - 1916, The organisa which he thought caused rat bite fever was this pleomorphic-like streptococcus-like organism. Well, how could the same disease be produced by a spirillum and a180 by a steptococcus? but the disease of rat bite fever has some similarities TJlrth a type of arthritir that Dro Blake and sthers were studying. The organisla that he had never pro- duced a skin er-uptioa, Y or the ulcer, chancre-like lesion, and the diseaae wars not subject to cure by arsphenawine, so it fi9bviousl.y was different. very interesting that two different organisms were obtainable from people, different people, who had the story of being bitter by a rat. These organisms are not at all related, It wa8

Page  350There Iwas just entering the school and having something that uas contrary to the finding of the much more distinguished Professor @f hdicine. controversial point, but we never bothered to argue about it tso much, and it ha8 turned out that both are right. The Spirillum minu8 that I had produces the typical rat bite fever, and this other organisaa, streptvthryx, er Streptobacillus monilifor~nis produces a somewhat similar dissree, but different, and the two are running koa now just about in that state. I was carried away by inter 4 in showiag this organism. I caa*trepaember that I intentionally put on a shm that would be critical of the finding of the Professor of Medicine. It was a d (1 What was the problem connected with its isolation and cultivatfon? It just won't grew, We tried everything, Henrietta Ftberp has a summary ef all that in her Master's thesis. neboe yet has grown it outside the body. I suppose it would grow in the embryo- nated Ncken egg-bhe one that they grow viruses and other things in with cells, bat I didntt carry it over into that medim. rate bite fever after those demonstrations. Nothing we cedd do would make it grow) and I didn't go on with the work in 6 You went t$. Yale lqr way of Washington, D.C., and while we said $0108 things abeut I Trmnbull College and being Master of a college, and you haw paid tribute to the enornous sensitivity with whichMrs. Bd handled uorking with youngsters, being a Master and a scientist must have pulled you ia two directions. What is there about being kater of a college, the work f the college, the work of the Council of Masters-that kind of association with the Masters of the different colleges presents a varied and interesting lot certainly in terns of their lette. 1" Well, the colleges, of course, are under the adndnistration of the

Page  351351 President and the Corporation of Yale in the usual way, and they had attached to them members of the facalty. All the Masters were ambers of the faculty of profeasional rank, and they had very greatly differing interests--Professor French in English, a Charucer expert; Arnold Whitridge, Professor of English too; the Prefessor of Classics Clare Mendel; an engineering socialegist Xliett Dunlap Wth; a very attractive Rhodes scholar, athlete, an amateur writer, and English teacher, Allan Valentim; and a Professor of Art and a noted etcher in his own right, Eherson Tuttle. were authori%ed to form a Ceuncil of Masters which met and discussed many of the problem of the colleges. We met once a laonth anyhow and gave advice OR appointments, the development of the bursary systew, rules for behavior in the colleges, the fostering of the dining halls of the colleges in competition with the dining row of the fraternities; in fact, some of the fraternities had to go out of business because of the college growth. We had hundreds of problems that were discussed, and to me it was extremely interesting because I hadn't, as a rule, talked with profesors of English, or history, or the classics. I envied them very aouch--thoss men in classics and literature--ia the relation to their work and behavior in the college plan. I had to 138 f across town to the medical school and bang around on a cement floor in a laboratory all day as best I could, while the Professor of Greek, we'll my, could lie, on the couch in his cellego and read H-r and be doing the work of the coUege* have to go outo Hewas always available. very difficult hours, either early in the morning, or when I got back after fim oxclock fraa uerk, er after dimer. I think thatts about all the Hastsr8. They He didnft Iwas available to the students at I told about the building up of the labraries. Trumbull Cellege becaupie this was not a Harkness college. I had a special prablsm in It was a poorer

Page  352352 college. It didntt have as muchmoney back of it-the residue of the Sterling Fund, next to the huge Yale Library 0n EzLrn Street. It was housed in rather cramped quarters in a way, in older dormitories The people who had set it up had had to fit the college into exieting student rooms and buildings; whereas the newer colleges could be planned by the Mssters, and they had much better comnon reom, dining roo018 and living quarters than were available at Trutnbull College, Fer instance, there were a number of fellows attached to each college-fifteen of thp, or about. that, frm ecendcs, history, classics, chemistry, covering the whole academic field, and these fellows$ members of the faculty, were e supposed to have sfflces, or did ham offices in the c6Uege to which students could come for counseling en their course+ or anything they wanted to talk about. new building the study row and the cdortable quartera for the fellows, attractive quarters, whereas when I got to Trumbull College there was no such In the mer colleges the Masters had an oppsrtuaty to inclub in the roam fer anyem. ef Tale University, to put up sone Universityrnoney to fit about twel~o student I had to go and persuade I. Farnun, the all-pawerful treasurer bedrooms for fellows* etudies. Of cour8e, that tookawqy dormitory income and didn't add to 19y popularity with the financial managers of the institution, but we did get them after 8 whiler Always Trumbull College, I think, suffered somewhat fran a lack of financial support and sdfered from the kind of quarters it had as compared with the otbr colleges, but we got on pretq well. . I enjoyed it, and I didntt enQey its It was very hard work, and I was not in syapathy with the general, what I call, %ey scout" setion of many of the #asters and the ladies, the wires of the Masters, whe had plenty of the te engage in persenal, social and musing, or aorious, relationships witti students in their colleges. Stme ofthemdevelopsd, realy, such a motherly canplex that

Page  353353 they would remind you of female birds, or hens taking 8 flock of chickeus around, I I thought the colleges ought to be more like the Wlish collegers and let these men find their own way through life at that time-$al+to them about their problems, but not to have too paternalistic an attitude toward them which is what I did, Well, fortunately the entering claes that was assigned to Trmaball College really contained many brilliant rnen-the class of 936, that class that have made distinct names for themelves fnliterature and in pslitics. They were great In athletics in hle, The great Larry Kelly ups a atsmbbr. There were people in ? I admired them very much. I had rather personal expssiencee with all ef theao Somehow or other they would find we working In my office in the back mf the college and would c~ab in and tell me the BIOS? remarkable atodea about their pareah, their love affairs, their financial. situation, and the pressur. the wore under. I saw sop very fine thinga. For instance, a great tackle on the Yale team lost h- his father at one tbe in hi8 sophmore year, 4 I think. They were poor, and he came to me ence and said,mSaue Yale alumni have visited 1R80 They waated te give me an alumni scholarship, What do yon think about it? tt I said,nIt sounds to me like a football scholarship because theymnt you I don't think a self-respecting mn would 1 to play football on the %de tawno take a thing like thaten i That fitted in with his thoughts about it, and this huge fsllow spent his sumner mn scaffslding on his back, on ladders, or whatnot, with a drill drilling holes through concnts floors in buildings to put in electrical wiring and staff. In college he was a bursary student, and he did this kind of drilling work during the su~~uer. You 8aw thiags like that among the students thatwere very

Page  354354 af fe ctiwr I remember one man whose mother lost her find, as wetd say in common par- lance, land. !Chis boy would ge down to that town and stand on a cerner for houm waiting until his mother passed in a cosllpany with one of them custodial efficials ef the psychiatric hospital, just tosee her. do that. She had psychiatric trouble and was put in an institution down in Mary- She didntt recogniae hipD but he would You found that theytcl caw iaa ell you about curious situatims that if had occurred-a boy who had grown up in a small town and had came to Yale was engaged to 8 girl who in a -11 town was hisequal, but he smn outgrew his fianae, and this kind of student would ham 8 great preblem. His eyes were open, and he saw a scepe of the universe that be never would have seen in a country town, The girl didntt satisfy him intellcc$uaU.y an~more. This kind of man woad feel under a great ebligatisn to marry this girl that hetd promised to marrg, to get married because she was loyal to him. man like that -8 hew injudicious it is to marry anybedy out of pity fer them* They*d understand that it wouldnrt last. I Hdd been engaged to her, and herd cut her off from ether opportunities The problem ym discuss with a That's the kind of thing that came to me a great deal as the hster, probably because I was 8 doctor. Theytd tell me lots of things about their physical treubles, or their family troubles. They wanted advie., er information. I suppose if I took the time, I ceuld tMnk ef a hundred very personal stories that were told me in all seriousness and resulted in rather useful actien 8004 timeo Some times you couldntt do anything, Well, there was ald~ a great intellectual interest in the affairs of the students in the college. They wrote and put en some plays of their ownr At Trmabull, they established a magazine called the Trtnnbullian-do you have any

Page  355355 cooies ef that? There are a couple of issues in the files. - I liked Trmbull College because bf its patron saintdonathan Trumbull of Lebanon, Connecticut, whowas a very steadfast man in the revolutien, furnished the iron that George Washington could use to make cannono up in Lebanon, and we used to have a pilgrimage up there with the fellows, soeaetimes the students. He was sturdy and forthrieht-8Brother Jenathan", as he was called in the old daysr-and one of his sons was a great artist, John Trmbull, which was a s at Tmbull College wrote a tremendow thesis on John TrumbuJ.1 the artist. All of it went aleng as part of a whole life of different people# different age$ gatherod together, and I don't recall any serious difficultiea either aaong the students, or in tb relations between my felleus and the students, The Trmbull hme was e% developsent in the family, and me of the studenks 6 our house wa8 a very fine MiasterE8 douse. It was built especially by alteratibn and addition for our occupancy of it. We had help ora the plane frm Mr, Ekstman and others. Itwas a very expenaive house, but it was a place that I entered teward the end of my being there with LL shudder becaw as floor, sitting everywhere with norepard fer the privacy of myself, or Mrse Bayne-Jenes. Whenever they had a dance, or student festival of so808 kind, she would take in as many of the girls as the beys brought there as it uas possible for her to housep aad m had to take care of the parents. We had a huge kitchen and ice box, and I think the students in those days $rank a great deal of milk, quarts and quarts sf milk. Seaetires they-is that book of hers in the files with the names of the people she saw? over knew that + soon as I got inside I would see it swarming with students sitting on the I didnit know I brought that

Page  356356 These -re the dinners. It isn't cceaplste. It stops after a while. She tore out a great many pages, but you can see that we had dinners and dinners and dinners. Entertain- ment by the Masters was part of the obligations, We had an academic guest suite in the college Masterts House, separated a little, in a wing, and you could lock the door, and this academic suite wag always occupied by visitiag menbers of the Corporation, the monthly meeting of the Yale Cerporation. One of tho msrnbers of the CerperatAon was attached to each cellege, but in addition the TrumUU academic guest suite was wad a8 a sort of rsoidena occasionally by a pro- fessor who had no other plaae to go like Mr. Allerdyce Nicholsp the head of the School of D+na, who stayed for mentha. They didn't tab their meals in the Masterts House. They wet! elsewhere-the college dining room usually, but the burden of taking care of the linen and keeping the place clean fell on the lady of the Maaterrs ibuse. TQ revert to this milk business-1111 tell you a trivial epissde that I saw* As I said, the students parents vbre around. Om boy a bottle of milk and a glass, slowly into it, I 8aidanThis were all drinking milk andespecially when their wanted sane milk in our parlor, and we brought in and he tilted his glass an et the milk run down don't foam like beer." Q He did that infront of his nether. His habitual way ef pouring beer into a glam caught up to him on the milk, but theywere net rowdy, aad there wasn't rach drinking. As a matter of fa* I went to student parties eccasionally at the Waldorf bstorir, or PI-e other place, a cominglout party, er engagement party, and they had aluapa: tu@ bars. They had a milk bar at one end 0f the dance floor and a liquer bar at the other. All the young people were at the milk bar, and their parents were at the liquor.

Page  357357 I got interested in a phase of those students at that time enough to talk with them about it, telling them that they seemed to be instincts. amed of their best # There was a move, a beginning of civil. disobedience, a beginning socialistic point of viewo There WBB Mrs. Lindberg's Wave of the Future. Do yeu know that book Mrs. Anne Morrow Lindberg wrote? deal, a tney wouldngt adxnit they were patriotic. any talk about service to their country. It influenced them a great They wouldn* mntenance They s eemed to be hard and disenchanted 011 things of that sort, but I knew underneath that they had a great scwe of integrity and devotion to the country and to god things, and it all came out in Wo/L War II. These were the men uho fought the war-gloriously. close connections with a number ef students who uere in Trwbull College, and 1 I still haw v they will be life long connections. Well, I went through this as long as I thought I could take it, but I was getting into other things. Schoolp and I got to be Director of the Bsard of Scientific Advisere of the Childs Fund, and I was still trying to work in my laboratory. I had ne end of committee connections outside of Yale, so in 1938, I r esigncd as the Master of Trumbull College. Fortunat ly we were able ts move to Trumbull Streetp and the University rented me the house they owned of great histaric interest, the house ai Benjamin Sillban, and we enjaped that very much until I went to the war in At the same the I got to be Dean of th Medical i e i x 1942 o Do these entries reflect dinners in the Master's house? c__ Yes. Formal dinners? Formal and infomal.

Page  358358 There was a dining rOOm in Trmbull - Ccllege for the students,msn't there? Yes, but these were in our house. We had a dining room that could seat confortably twelve people, well-furnished. ture that Mrs, BaytreJones had frau her fampfly, and some of the furtxislrbngs of the Masters's house were taken fran the great Gamin Collections of furniture in the Yale Art Huseum, Some of it was the fine old furni- There are so8116 fascinating names that appear in here, but unrelated to science- John Htrsey was a student in the college. We tried very hard to keep ollege front being known aa a predwxiical collegee That aust have been hard, Pes, they always thougbti-the students who elected that college thought that they would be close to the Dean, and that tMs would help them get along in wedicine-I mean that you could give them advIc6. ']leu seep they were under- graduates in the collegeo Tbeywerenft in medicine, and it was hard to get into medical schools, and they thought that electing Trumbull College would be a good thin, Dr, iIarvey Cushing was a fellow of great renowno who raised the greatest problen was a most interesting psychiatrists named Clements Cb Fryo Dr, Fry was the psychiatrist for tRe Pale student health organi- sation, and he had his fellbwts reen up on the fourth floor of the same buildinn that heused the PIaster's ewe, a five story building, He used his sofa a8 a therapeutic, psychiatric couch, and all the time disturbed andqueer students were going up to Clem Fry's place to be treated, and it beg,an to give the place Also I had a good maw medical people in the ftllowts groupe Dr, Winternits was a fellow, The one

Page  359359 a rather shoddy mer Trmabull College didnrt get to be known a8 a pre-laedical college. That was the trouble. Having a medical man supposed to represent science, or bo broadly interested in science, and yet working in the medical school tended to restrict the interpretation, but I had excellent scientific people in the fellews-the great theoretical physicist named Henry Margemu, a botanist-biologist, John SI Nicholas, and Charles He Warren who wa8 the Dean of the Sheffield Scientific Seheol and whe succeeded meo Nicbolas succeeded Warren, There havo been four Masters siwe they started. all celleges did because thatts the evening when all the servants go out of the They had a felids neeting every Thursday evening- house. We would met and go down to dinner in a body and the biasterra table, came 'back and have a discussion about sit at the head table, SwthiN, 5 r\ Hew did you enjoy the association with the other Hawters? Very much. Robert French, the #aster of Jonathan Edwards, waa a long-time friand of mine from classmate days at Yale. Alan Valentine and I used to play tend ogether. Arneld Whitridge wa8 not so approachablee group rf Victorian socialites of Sew Pork-rather snooty. was a very interesting person, and he was an engineer with .it He comes frm a Elliot Dunlap Snith social idearar At that time, engineering was being urged and taking steps itself to be a broad social subject, not just applied work. broadened, He was a Navy captain, a rather vigorous, opinionated man who married trlea. He could get mad, but it didntt matter, highly cultivated man in literaturo and other things, and he had a very fiae csllege in Davenport College, 'fhe engineering courses were beiw Clare Msndel, the professor of Classics, was still a clcss friend, Raerson Tuttle, the artist, was a Then a friend that 1 still have who is here in

Page  360360 Washington is Arncald and Mrs. Wolfers. Arnold Welfers was a great authority on international affairs, and heh still here with the Jehns Hepkins Internatienal Affairso We met in the Council of Xasterts meetings, but we saw each other all of the time aonaewy, or another* I think in a way one gai this centact. Rmchester apart from the medical school and the Department of Bacteriology? A 2 insight into a place like Yale University just by YV I don*t know howrauch contact you had at the University of - Well, we had contaat with a great many people in ReChester outside ef the medical school became Mrs. BayneJones got to soon one of Mr, hstsllant8 rather constant associatea. He had four ladies that used to go with him and sit with T hia, talk with him always at his musicals and things4rs9 Whipple, and one or two they had with Mr. Eastman. You met a great maw peopleo We Eastmn had a others, and these ladies would bring their husbands into the association musicale at his house every Sunday, and you'd meet all sorts of people thereo I kmw a feu people outside of the school in the University faculty-i)ro Rhees, Professor Charles We Dodge was a close friend of mine, the Prsfesser ef Biology, and a long time friend of Dro PJoler; in fact, Professor Dodge and Dro Goler were among theearly people who made diphtheria antitoxin. islmunieed him under the steps of Edison Hall in the late 18905, I guess, gat a horse and Professor Dedge was in the Health Bureau Laboratory and Ms specialty was to watch for the appearance of atem in the drinking water, beautiful, little, microscopic organisms of extraordinary color, shape, and sim. and give the water not only a curious color, but a niost awful taste, One ef the Mat- are these They vary a great deal in the watero Some of them come at certain tines problem in water supply wa8 tomtch what happens in the reservoirs-fallow the

Page  361diatom. What getting at is h@w precise Professor Dedge could be. He had a little be6ttle of black magnetic sand. a nagnet-little fine grains, He used to use this sand as the filter bed for It was rand that could be picked up his diatoars-nde a little filter out of papep, ``he diatom weald go throak2 the paper, but if you sprinkled a certain amount of this sand in there, they would be caught in the sando Then you could wash them out. He concentrated them in that way-put a quart of water through thi8 thing. When he got through the filtratim, he would take out his paper and let it dry. Then he would start picMng up the sand grains with a magnet. He used this little bottle full of sand for thirty yeare, and I doubt if he lost two grains. bottle fram hisl when I toek over that part of the work, but; the bottle got emptyo I inherited the The bther ksters sn the occasion of your retirement fran Trumbull College, and incidentally it hasnrt been pointed out, and I think you ought to, that the nature of the appoinbent was life the. - I; The original Master were to be thereo 4 Yes. French stayed until he died, There was no tern, except the retiring age-not life time. Ysu had to retire at age sixty-four optionally. Yes, I don't remember any time limit at dl on the appeiniment. until retirement for age, Whitridge left. Eheraon Tuttle died as Master. WaUera lefta Pallentine went to the University of RochesOer to be president. bxlel stayed until he retired. Nichela8 stayed there 2 I_ On the occasion of your retirem.;nt a8 Master of Trmbull College, there was quite ~ a good bit of poetry read by sone of the other Masters,,

Page  362They gave me a fine dinner party atWhitridge*s heuse, and sone of this poetry is very clever. Yes, it iso I don% know whether any of it is in these files, or not? I Yes, it s here--1 guess there were six pieces from six different sources. They were so such cleverer than I vas-it's just amazing. It was a good experience. Don*t you think in terns of subsequent things that happened to you at Yale, that it was gbod to have this initial experience with a variety of youngsters la the college setting;? Oh yes, I think it was a very huwniBing and soul enlarging experience* Any-thing that is as intricate and extensive as that is bw4d to increase the comprehension af even a dope, You couldn't help but pick up some insight into the nature-some of your early reDorts. I want to take that dinner boo back to her. YOU don't want that. Except that it does indica o was present. I Well, you keep it, but put it back with sy paperer. Why donft we leave it here in the files, and when we come to go through them we can decide then whether it's Wise to leave it, or not, Well, it belongs to hero I didn't know that I had brought it up,

Page  363363 Maybe yoard better take it then. work and changes at Yale, we owht to get into the conditio= that YOU found in the medical school, its growth and developnent, the spur behind this growth and developed, and sane of the difficulties that led to the deanship problem in I think before ne can net into srientific - 1935. Thatfa e large order. U f Let me turn this over-werve got about ten dates left OD this side, and I hate to get started on something and then have to stbp and change reels. I believe mtve had enough for %dayr

Page  364Meraday, May 9, 1966 A, N. L. I!. I want to tab advantam of pur experienca at Johns Hopkins and your experience at the University of Rochester to give some comparative insight for its awn sake into the developnents at Yale hdicill School as background, in a wag, to under- stand the rebirth and development of the 1920s and into the 1930s which would set some dimension for what it is you fell heir to, the kinds of problems you - fell heir to, so if you could draw on experience in three plaoes because they are different in some respects, and tell me, so far as you canrecall, or have thought about it, or read about itp something of the backgrcund of the emergence of Yale in the 20th Century, pa rticularly after 1918* 0 Well, in my rec llection and my feeliw about these places, they are not so A$ distinct as they wculd appear to you, aa I brou;Jht out earlier in our tdk, since at least 1843, when my grandfather went there and was in the sase class with Mr. John# D me11 Wth who was a great uncle of the future so Bayne40neso I have had some connections with Yale, r; In the intervening years of the last half of the 19th Century I had some relatives in Yale most of the tbne-my uncle Hugh Bayne, my uncle T. L, Bayne, a whole lot of cousins by marriage in the Che-ney - family and a number of people from the South who continued to let their children go te Yale, although they were stillmexbring the Civil War and bconstructian, and Yale was not so popular in the South any mere after the Civil War, Yale was a place I was familiar with fron very early times, but the side of Yale with which Iwaa familiar was the academic and social side. I was there as an undergraduate frae 1906 to 1910, taking preparatory work for medical school, but to tell you the truth, I paid very little attentien to Yale Melal School. At the time when I was in college, Yale Kedical School was

Page  365in a little old tumbled down building on Pork Street-one of the original buildings almost, going back to the middle of the centurye Yale- founded with some lat in 1831, by Nathan Ro Smith and some very fine physicians of that tima* of the country, but no parbicular distinction, -=no, that's not it; that's later-by Dro William Ho Welch, and you might want te get tNa and see it. r)t.b.-rhL sectuur. h It had a respectable position in the medical orld and history k There's a great pamphlet on Yale It must be in the library here. In 1901, Yale University celebrated ita bicentennial. Itwas founded in 1701, and one of the chief speaker8 at the bicentennial celebration waa Dr, Willislle Welch. He wrote a history of the Yale Medical School whichwas published as a eeparate booklet in connection with that bicentennial celebration,, I know fran talking to Dr. Welch and others, that he ha flll the fifty or sixty pages of this pamphlet. Yale hdical School wasa good school, but not in a class with H~pkins, or Harvard, or Chicago, or Pennsylvania at this the dre talking about, and I had never had much connection with the Yale Medical Sehool. Hopkins as I have told you before, but I got sidetracked to New Orleans for one year, period frm about 1910, a little after 1910, up te 191Yp and that's Dr. George Blumr,was a very fine, aoUd, upstanding man, conservative, careful, una breakable integrity and dull, but Dro Blumer was a great professor of medicine,, He wrote good textbooks, Dr. Bllarer occasionally when I went back to New Haven for one thing or anether. o work very hard to + I had no thought of going there. I wauted to go to Nevertheless, I knew that the Dean at the Yale Medical School through the he was very much respected. I used to see ? As I Say9 Yale bdical School was a place outaj.de prcy erdinary ramblings. I was very much more familiar with he acadenic and the social side of Yale College, and I make a distinction here between Xale College and Yale University, Although Timothy Dwight in the 18709, or thereabouta, is suppcaed to have made k

Page  366the first steps toward creating a university at Yale, Yale College wa8 then, and still is, the rather dominant element in the placee thought about Yale Cellege more thian he did about Yale University, SO when I went back there I had the eame feeling about having been there beforo that I had when I weat to HopMns. One, who grew up as I did, Hopkias waa not a new placo for me to go to as a student,, I knew Dro Welch Dro Thayer, Dr,, Barker, and a good maqV other people in the Hopkins and in Baltimore before I was a student, and I had an interest in the things that they wero doingr Starting at Rochester was a new venture, but a8 a matter of fact, it also re-d rather like being in familiar surrcPnndings because mssi of the glen on the new faculty were old friends of mine. alike in a great many ways. We had caninon experiences. At Rmchester we had tm build up this medical school within a university thatms then about seventy years old, I think, and a canservative urdversity, cemeducatienal, placed in the middle of the town of Rochester, whereas the medical school was built @ut en the banks of the Genessee River, about five ariles out from tho center of the city, Again, we were in an isolated Iscation, just as I felt 4e Medical School w88 in an isclabd location because it MI qulta across town from the kverdty, t Itwraantt strange at all. We thought $2 Our problems in startin8 the medieal school at Rochesterwere surrounded by an inheritaace of the traditions of medicine and the ideals of medicine and the usual thoughts that we all shared about the policies and procedures for coa- ducting aedfcal education, All of these things were in our minds in connuon9 and I didntt feel a8 if it were a new building in the Bsert, or anything like that,, Far my part, at least at Rochester, I began to feel very much at home among the people, u I suppsse this was because Dr. Goler was so cordial and enthsiastically 2 supportive of the effort and SO wim that it mads he transition quite easy, P

Page  367367 b alyst coming into a reapective part of your family that you hadnft seen for a long time. I den% know w t characteriae the situatian muohmore, but I would emphasiee that I had a great continuity through them all* any great break in either one, or the other. +i There wasnft At Yale-to take it up at the time I went back there in the thirties. 1s that when yau want to get into now3 Some insight into its developnent since 1918, because I think it had taken a turn for the better, had it not? Yes, Dr. Winternito, whe I think graduated from the Johns Hopkim in 1907, went to Yale University in 1917, I think, as the Professer of Bacteriology and Pathalogy, He didntt go there straight as the dean, I think it Was for nearly tu0 years that he was in the Department of Bacteriology and PaUology, and Dr. Blumer w88 still Dean. k.. Bl-r continued as Dean until 1919, and Dr. Winternits, if I remenihr carrectly, became Dean in 1920, and he was Dean sf Yale Medical Scheol until 1935, fifteen developnent of any established medical school in this country. ars of the =est extraordinary f? It was a complete renmatien of' ideas, aspiratierur, metheds of teaching, research undertakings, and all in the social cast that was characteristic of Dr, Winternitz and character- istio of Hr. Hutchina whowas Secretary of the University and other supporting people who gave Dr, Winternitz unlisited, loyal support, although you would think that they woad not have had oluchinterest in the deliberately socialistic phase ef medicaleduoation and medical care that he sponsored, and one of these mea was the all powerful Treasurer ef the University, a tall, gaunt, fim man wed Mr. Th-8 F~FMJB. Dr, Winternit% seem8 to have set abeut right from the start to revolutienise

Page  368368 the teaching and service plans in the Yale ba,l. School even before he became Dean, but when he became Dean, he had a chance to bring ideas into practical effect. started. He built the Sterlrlng Hall of bdicim which is this huge building cavering the better part of a large block, He bilt a new powerhouse, built new animal quartem, built a better Department of Pathology, added wings to the old, tumbling dawn New Haven Hospital+ and set up very soon what he called the Institute of Human Relations. The best way I can characterize that is to recall a diagram that Dra Winterdts gave me which cenvlnoed me that what he wa8 doing with humin relations was just to take the whole university into his bahiwick and give it another name. The diagram he drew for we about the the I had gow back there as a Professor andhster of Trumbull Cellege was a five pointed star, structure of the Institute of BuEian Relations, and at the point ef each point of the star, he had a little circle, 8 little sphere, and one of th labeled Yale Law School and another was labeled Yale Divinity School, and another was labeled k3.a College, and the Yale Suhool came in there-in sther wards, what he did was to take all the big departments of the university and make them little appendages of the Institute of Human Relations. IIe nearly succeeded in getting that grouping established, until the people who had not only vested, but perfectly legitimate right6 in the Divinity School a autonolabus erganiaations almest with special functions and special oblieations, turtaed against the plan, and enormous opposition 8 aroused to the Institute of Human Relatiom in the university colsrmuaity~-slso this eppositien was aroused eutsib-+rho rather ridiculed this idea of having a thing called the Institute Qf Human Relatieas when it really was a power play to bring all the main his huge and sweeping 1 He was able to get an enormous building program t %e five pointed star repreaented the nucleus of the basic he Law School as i I= c

Page  369369 division of the university under one 3wksdIctioa headed by Dr. Winternitz and m~be HUtChinSe Well, by the tim I got thera, the furor of the Institute of Hman Relations was rather quieting dawn. of Huglan Relatioas idea wa8 promulgated largely by 1931, and I get there in 1933, and what it had become by that time was a Department chiefly of Psychiatry and Psychology. They had in one of the large wings of the Sterling Hall of Medicine the Department of Psyclniatv with patients in all stages of manic ex- citement t0 great and dangerous depression showing minor abnormalities of be- havior to very aerlow abberatiaaao It quieted down rather quickly because the Institute Dr, Winternits also had planned to introduce into the Yale Medical School foreigu professors, and the professor of Psychiatry was Engen Kahn whom he, brought wer from Vienna, I think. Another inportation was Dusser de Barenas a neurophysiologist, a Q eat, big strong dchnan. those men took root here. DuPJeer de Barenne died of a heart attack juat shortly after I finished being Dean. Kahn left, and he is now a Professor of Psychiatry soaewt#@e in the Southo In my opinion, when they transplant a foreign pro- feasor In new soila he carries on a rather wilted existenoe, Nevertheless, Dro Winternits started a vogue of having fcrelgn professors tzwm in, and they're had one recently at Yale who didn't settle down too soon and probably won't stay very longe The other members of the faculty that were in the medical school-I forget when they were attracted there, but I think Dr, Winternits had rauch to do with getting them, They were very prdsing young lren and had developed into excellent authorities in their fields, like Dr. Grover Powers in pediatrics and Dre F'rancis G. Blake in medicineo country, Dr. Sa~uel Harvey, was there as hfessor of Surgery, and he was a I dontt think either of 4 *I An indigenous Yankee of the

Page  370370 renarkably stable philosopher in the medical school and a man of general rekawn at that time. The other men were good toe-Arthur H. Horse, in obstetrics. The school, hwever, was suffering from lack of funds. It had DD endonrent to speak of. Its financial problems samehow Dr. Winternit5 had managed temporari- to solve, or at least he managed to get money to do the things h wanted to a do, but it wasn't resulting in much permanent resources in money. For example, a very great man who was bn the faculty was Robert M. Yerkes, a great student of higher primates, chimpansees at Orange Park, Florida, where he had bis cololr~p of there aniaals. He was a psychologist, and he carried a huge undertaking by yeaFly pleading with the Rockefeller Foundation to give hlm whatcwer he ueeded per year-36, or 40 thousand dollarso That s emas ridloulow now it s 80 small, I herd a little problem in connection with that work when I was the Dean, to get it rsfinanoed for the last tim, ItUak, en that eaue source, the Rocke- feller Foundation through Pale. I n Dr. Winternite had suoceeded 10 getting from the university and fr- out- side sources enough to build thecse new buildings, to bring in new people, and by persuasion and eloquence to retilre the educational program to a cotlpriderable extent. Haw effective wae the Flexrrsr Repert in this rebirth and through the Flexmr Report the Rockefeller Fmundation in the 192092 The Flexner Report wa8 in 1910, Everybody was familiar with it. The report indicated that Johtw Hopkim was so far ahead of everything else, that all any- bdy could do wa8 try I don't think the Flexmr Be- port urn of aqy particular benefit to Pale, Yale, as I said, ranked among the good schools, and the Rockefeller Foundation was interested in supporting e catch up a little bit. IGt

Page  371371 medical educatlon to a great extent at that tine. They don't do it any more to that same extent, but they did support a good deal at Pale-Just rat the present I orget hsv much, or when. There -re several ether foundatimps that con- tributed to work going on in the place* The Anna Fuller Fund giving money for growth studier, the baaie developrent of earner reprearch at Yale. Hr. Frederick P. Keppel waa interested in having his foandatim-what was that? i. Carnegie. Yes, Carnegie gave same lrorny for dental education at Yale which we can talk about now or later. One of Dr. Winternits's ideas, for example, waa a very broad idea that affected hi8 effort6 in connection Wit.h spechltiw and general education. He had two la noirea3 or whatever you call the kind of beit that pawant to fight the most, and OM, of there was the tenure of professors* He thmgbt that Ufe tenure for a professor wat one of the most inhibitory things that a school could have. "Yon can% get rid of theta", he'd say, and he wanted C. get rid of 8- of them. 'Thptts been true of moat adriniatraters of educa- I tAonal institutions. bey have to obey the traditisor of te-, but they dontt van% to alway8. A mall is finisbed, and he stay8 on. The ether thing that Dr. Winternits wanted to break down was the walls be- tween departrer~ts~ 'phe departmentalisation in a school 6s extraordinary. The peopla in slsrgerjr want to build up surgery as a cmplet0 little 8ChQd with the emphasis on aurgery, 'he ne in medicim, and the 8~me in neurology, 8r some- thing else, and they all go ab0 t their work with very little cammunication be- tween theee sections. The ow tung thetwas different at Yale, at the the I went there, 8s compared with Rochester at the start,sera that at Rochester we were all fme te associate and didn't have too aplany other burdens or interests. 9

Page  372372 We could pool our efforts in education and research, but at Pale it was a series of roms, so to speak, or caapartraenta in which one departamat would live and not go through the door into the other. Winternitn tried to break that up by fomiag what he cdled study unitr. For instance, he set up the Atypical Growth Study Ueft which means that it would be broadly interested 5.a the function8 of growth and particularly in the growth that is not typical. That's a long lot of wards to mean cancer, or neoplastic growth. If you study growth 8s they do nov everywhere, you can't just study the change in the length and breadth of an erg.ltim. You've got to study the biolegiual me%abolic procesrres, the whole phy8icd chemical situatisn, the onoyme8, even the effeets of coeraPic radiation OIL them. They are dl1 e part of the eeolegy of the universe* Well, Winternita saw that, and he tried to bring together in the Atypical Growth Study Unit the pathologists who mre seeing cancer in the autopsy, the surgeoas who -re seeing cancer ea the operating table, and the aedical people whewere seeing cancer thatwasn't being treated surgio,allp, or cancer diegnosti- cally in the patients as they came along. The physicist could help with rpparatw, and Winternits even brought a physicist mer fron the Univerrity ha partatant of Phyaics and gave him an office in the nedical school so that this ~nwa~l always available to discuss the physical aspects of problems, whether it be a qoestion of apparatus, or whether it be eelldlar pr0e@88es. Radiatiea ~844 r8ther well developed at the Yale kdical School laostly frog the diagnostic 4 point of dew. Bsdiatiso, in relatian to typical growth was well born ever 2 7 since anybody saw th ancer6 that developed on tha hands of the men who did the flrst x-ray work. + Itwas quite interesting at that time to see radiatien coming into the field. %e aame thing was happening ia ahemistry. It was a period when the sex hormoms were verymuch to the fore, and, for axanple, the Pro-

Page  373373 fessor of Anatomy, Dr, Edgar Allen, waa more of an expert on stme of the in- ternal secretions, particularly sex estrogens, th4n he was on structural anatwq, and anatomy at about $hat time ww doing what Dr. Winternitr would like Study Unit was formed and Pumtioned, and, as I say, it brought into Yale a lot of coaapetence in the field of CBCIC(B~. I amremember the Ygssion mart group made uponMr. Starling W. Child8 when he and his son came to visit the place. I think it turned their attention to Yale in a way they hadn't appreaiated before. Tbe trouble with the study units is that they go along very well for a few para, and they become departn~eats, and you have to break their walls down. They get a little money, and they begin to have relrted interests, have interest in positions, interests $a pbysical laboratory, space, and whatnot. Winternits had also anether group called the Pseurological Study Unit, A characteristic of Dr. Iitlnternitsts idea was that this should bring; together the psyobiatrist, the pspcholegiet, the neurologist, the anatomist, an expert on nerve structure, the sub-department that Dr. Harold So Burr had on neuroamtq -you 8aw his letter there-that kind of aim is fine, but the oaly thing about it is that they flourish in a broad way, have a fleurishing time in broad and liberal activity for a few years, and then they get set. I suppese all living things do sonething like that. generation of new idea and novel h This is great excitement though in approachese Oh yes, but it'a extraordinary hew divlsiana in a school just occur either because of geographical acuideata, OP the incllnationa of the peopleo Yale Medical School is divided structurally by Cedar Street which rum between the

Page  374374 hospital and the Department ef' pathology oc3 the one side and the so-called basic stience departtrenrts on the other-anat-, physiology chiefly-and then the Institute of Human Relationa. Now, people don't croas Cedar Street, although it's about thirty feet wide. school than the Colorado canyon, That's a fact. It was a greater chasm in that That's ianredible isn't ito Yes, but it happew everywhere* It happened at Hopkinse There is samething about the geographical separations that are very powerful. To cro88 Cedar Street you had to put en a coat, or a hat, somthfnglike khat. it came up-I mean thir idea about having accessibility as a prim element in a It took time, and plan came up when Dr. Cushing, Dr, Fultoa and I were talking about a structure fer the Yale Medical Library. We'll get to that n more detail later, but let me put it in hereo '811 say this-at om the I* Groovenor Atterbury, who was an architect classmate of . Childs, had an idea that this library ought to be a beautiful marble, aaetzaole~-ur I called it-set up on P piece of land just beyoad the Institute of Human Relations. Dr. Cushing and I felt very strongly the other way, that the library aught to be a place into which the students k would fall unavoidably, so we put the library on the end of one of the stems of the middle wing of the Sterling BaU of kbdicine, a beautiful little corridor going into a Y shaped extension, the historical mgdical library on one side and the working library, or ourrent library, on the other, and it w.8 so eaay passing by there to walk in through the door that thousands went iRthat never would have gone up othenrim, fln mare. We fixed it like a trap, 4 In the late 19208, I think frar the Pale Faculty, C-E A, Winslow and from the Yale Law School, Walton Hamilton, were involved ina study, the Comaittee on

Page  375375 the Cost of Y.'edical Care. Did that have its ranifications at Yale, orwas that one of the new idea8 that were abroad in the land also? Yes, it -8 a new idea irp the land, Dr. Winslow, Charles-Edward AmoFJT Winslou-curiously I haven't mentioned him so far, He was the head of the De- partment of Public Health, and Dr. Winslow was a noted man, very elequent, a pro- lific writer, and a great pone in public health in the country. He was not a clinician, and he didn't have a-ng particulerly to do with aedicsrl students;* Hi8 budget came through the Dean's Office in the medical school because he didn't have a t~chosl. He had a department, although it was called the School of Public EIealth, Drr Winslw uas a xnan apart in a way, not on his own inclim- tioa beccuese he wm a porfeck3.y charming, hospitable persoa, bat because, I think, the other menbers of the faculty were either too busy, or too disinter- ested to hare much associatien with the Department of Public Healthe That Departaent ef Public Health was an enlightened department. Dro B Winslow ua8 a prophet of the new ideas of social medicine and very isportant in all sorts of civic and other activities that are outside of the ordinary medical field? 88 8 matter of fact though, he was a fellow of Trwbu3.l College, and I got to know him -11. For instance, when he was in Trmbull College, he w88 very much intersated in city planning, and with hira we got a Russian or two mer. At that time it wa8 8 little bit bold for a member of the faculty to have such guests, but they came over and talked about city planning* Drr Winslaw knew the ahief city planners in England, and he and Ira Hiscock studled the city planning ef Nm Haven, but what good it did for that I don't know because #ew Haven is an unplanned siturtiert, if tre everwrr onee Yale University occupies lnoist of the center of the taxable property ef New Haven and makes a great trouble with the city officials and tom and gown battles.

Page  376376 AM especially when you headed into the early 1930s and the depression. I donrt know much about that because Ims down here in washia@ton theno This study of the cost of medical care was fought by the regular medical profession as they did so many things of that kind. there on the c st of medical care, the financing of nedical care, even (lis late a8 that, the late 194088 was opposed by a good y14~f ef the medica2 people in the organized medical profession. The school had to sake its wq through inn@- ration into innovations by constant sort of a battle with the offices of the Connecticut State Medical Sgciety and the Bridgeport bdlcal Society, although 'hey-tb one I have up \ c Dr. Wtnternits had amaged to make good friends of the main Creighton Barker, the Secretary of the Cennecticut State Bedid Society, a strict AMA type of man, but he was mostly friendly+ Then Drs Winternitr aet up an advisory, conaultative camittee cmposed of the Dean, several members of the faeulty, and the chief redical officers of the ehte-I mean physician officers ; not politically appointed off icers-+?~nbers of the State hdical Seciety, the Bridgeport would meet three times a year and talk over the problem of the medical school as they bore en the practice of rardicitle in the State of Connecticut. rather sharp at time8 because theywant to protect the financial emolument8 of the practicing physician, and they are rabid on what the pbpician calls "the corporate pactice of medicineen Yale and other places I*ve been do get into the corporate practice of medicine, if you want to strictly define it, and thatts anathemu to the BMB type of pereon. s@ci8ty, and so forth. They It's ,. Was Uintarnitt behind the devdlopaent of the full tdne syst%la at Yale? No, the full time-ps, he was back of it, but the full time system at Yale

Page  377377 was started at the Hopkina. The fbll time is in the Flexner conception of things. I was at the Hopkinrs when, of course, that was going on. After he had left, he expressed indignation that any professor would venture to talk about medicine who didn't have to fight in the arena in the battles with the patients and their families and all that sort of thing. Dr, Welch, however, was thorougtily full the from the start, and Dr, Franklin P. U, profeiser of Anatomy at the Hopkiiur UBI probably ahead ef Dr, %lch ia the concept of the Dre Osler had left. 1the system. I waa on a carpalittee whioh Dr. Welch had set up to periodically review t.l things in the fall the systr. I can't remenber exactly- the last meeting, but the subtanae of it was that Dr, Welch called us dawn to Hopkins to discuss the full tire syetena and at that tim-and I think renting Yale-the fiall time system y18 not working well for two reasons. One waa that it was ret up on a shoe string financially. these great prefeesors of medicine and surgerJr that couldn't compare with the salaries that they could get elsewhere, or couldn't campare with the Balaries they shollld have to live the kind of life they were supposed to live. Thatwaa as at Yale then8 I waa repre- c It offered salaries to OW thiwe The other thiug bad about the full time system was that theyearly, and maybe they do still to a certain extent, selected young web who were in the beginning of their productive research period a They brought them in to be heads of departments and loaded them so with adminis- tratioa that they couldn't do any aore research. Administration, wg, public relations, faculty cwmittee meetings, caarmsittee meetings all ever the country in connection with edrxcatiod and research foundations are incessant interruptions an people who hare to do ite The full tirw eystetla was really breddng down because ad great promise in research. " I + ke away, or exhau the energies, or the thoughta of the + 1 4

Page  378378 it was ruining the people they thought were juat the right ones to cme into it. Was this true of your experience at Rochester? How did Whipple regard the full time system? He was in favor of it, but again Rochester at the tine thinking; about it, in the 19205, was slaaller, and I donlt bow that the outside calls people were anytblng like whatdeveloped later in the 19308 when more and more organisations had formed and more and more people were asked to be advisers. Welll an example ia the growth of the National hstitutes of Healtho Councils are compesed of teachers everywhere, and every d8y there are meting8 of great length, and mce you get on to one of the88 things, one of these orgoni- satiom, and either do sarethiag helpful, or don't do anything disreputable, ysu're asked to go mn again. It jt builds up, the other day that members of the facnlty must at least sp timeaway from the school to be of aw gomi to tbe school. the Their Nowadays-uell, I read a paper a third of their i4 That's incredible. At Pale then, the full time system wa8 in opratisa only partls. Oh, it war in operation for the heads of departments-surgery, Basdicine, pediatrics, obstetrics, psychiatry, physiology, anatawy, pathology--a1 those, At Rocheater we began to break down the full the Bystem as faras salaries go. We had to for the clinical members. We made what we called the modified full time system which I think is a good lan, and I carried it out at Yale semewhat and much at Cornell in New Pork. a man is allowed in private practicre to collect fees sqwl to hila salary. he gets ten thousand dollars a year, he can make another ten theusando li b The modified full time system sinply is this- = If he

Page  379319 colleats more than ten thousand, the BOLC~SS over ten thousand goes into some fund. Saae places put that money in a fund to support their departments, some places turn it into the school, and sane places turn it into the university, if the central university manages to get hold of it first. The best plan, I think, is to turn it into a general fhnd for the whole benefit of the schoolo Sam drpartrnents make so much money that they themselves become grantin$ institutions within the school,, I know of a department of surgery that supports a good Qbdy of the departmats of medicine and biochemistry, and other parte of a medical school, but If it's pooled and is under the control of a coplanittee, or scme one person, as it waa in New York, it can be used for the mapplementatien of salarier~, to buy books, to have a research fund for venture imestigations of people who haven't yet reached the stage where they can get money from P foundation, to carry malpractice insurance for the interns and resident~, and a whQlt3 lot of things, I think at Cornell we called it the "f'ull time fees fund", but at Yale when Iwas the Dean there, and I donst remember any particular difficulty with this, Ita mre that professors, 881118 of them, collected money in addition to their salariese By the the you become Dean the ~~~phasis is toward the modified fall tin@ system, Well, you knew, great ohangea take place In the nation a8 a whole in 1929-the 4 collapse, and I wonder what effect this had. bat Winternits certainly felt a kind of retrenchment, even in the midst of re- It nay not have been felt initial% birth, developaent and re-thinkiag, ad it's hard to balance that kind d act- certainly to the satisfaction of everyone. It's impossible. I would think that LI irpeasibilfty woad be part of the ataosphere, hestile or otherwise, to which you fell heir in terms of 1936. Part ef this nation-wide calamity was to spur

Page  380380 new and exotic thought-you know, how wild theywere from om extreme to anether 88 to what to do. Well, you see) I was at Rochester when the depressien begaao and 1 felt it personally because I had trouble selling a holiae for half what I paid for it. I don't think I could have sold it then, unless I threw in twentpfive gallons of the best wine I ever made and an elm tree in my celler that had blown down and I cut up and stacked. You had to sweeten the pot with the best wine gon ever mad?. Yes, it was good, and I persuaded somebody to pay half of what I paid for the house. Then I went t~ lfiaahingtoa shor$ly after that, and I was not in Yale at all during those pinching times, I got to started and my own laboratory, so I was not in the know as to what was gsing on in the aclhricristration of the scho 1 very much. I had no responsibilities as a department head, were registeyed under Dr, Leo F. Rettger and worked with some of the clinical dgparbnts, surgery and pediatrics. Medicine had a great department of bacteriology of it3 omo a great expert on streptococci in the country, and they were getting good grants I didn't get to Yale until 1932, and when in 1932, I was much concerned with getting Trumbull College (3 When I was there at that time I taught some graduate who \ 5 4 It was a distinguished department. James Traak was from the iqational Research Council and other places. I don't recall any particular hardship showimg n the surface at the tiam when I. first went there in 1932. When I became Dean I had the pain of cutting t fifty thousand dollars out of the first budget I had to handle, and that was a good big slice, out of a mall budget. report or not, 1 don't heror whether that, i3 in my first

Page  381381 Yes-therere a thincalled the "fluid research fund." The fluid research fund was about twenty-five thousand dollars a year which had been given by the Rockefeller Foundation. I used later on in this full time fees fund. at CornellQ This money was put out in small grants to profeasers, or instructors, or even a student maybe) in a venture esearch, It #as administered by our so-called Prudential Cararaittee, and that's part of the Board of Permanent Officers, professors. Itwas about twenty-five thousand dollars a year which, of course, doesn't go very far in a big place, something done experimentally for support for a 8hOrt time 8fl: permanent. becanes an expected re8ouree. The repeated requests for practically the same thing year after year shorn that they are counting on this as budgetary msoney. As a raatter of fact, some of it did get into budgetary situations, That was modeled t0 what R 4 S The difficulty there again is the tendency of people to confider 1% 4 It's very easy to do that, to employ a research technician who turns out to be doing a lot of the departmental worko What wa8 the occasion of - the sffer to you of the deanship? Out of what does that grow? matts going to be a hard question for me to answer to you because I haven't answered it to myself yet, faculty wa8 focused en me because I was a new person and had no commi*ats of any kind* I will leave out of consideration that they must have thought I was capable of being Dean. putting on any side about it. As they looked over the people who were 0n the faculty who aight be censidered for the deanahip, they would find that all (Pf them had been them long enough to have made 8 few enemies perhaps, or have made Now, I really think the attention of the I toek that for granted by their asking Be without

Page  382382 a number sf special friends and perhaps had expressed thawelves about policies and procedures that they couldn't turn away frm8 andm-ie quality a Dean should have without being weak about it is not only the quality of understanding all i sorts of points of view, but a willingness to work out maw, many problears that come to the Dean from members of the faculty, members of the faculty for a number of years night not have been so atient with some of the thoughts of their colleagues. What Ism laeaning to say is that Some who had dready been f. I wae rather foot Pree, I imagine that's why I came up to their notiaeo Now, they were determined to ma a change, and if I hadnet been Dean they 4 would have attempted te have another member of the faculty made Dean, but at Yale the proress of appoirrting, or lsaking a Dean as outlined in the bylaws at that tlme, was that the Beard of Permanent Officers of the school every five years could make a ndnation to the President of the Yale Csrporatioa for some- body to be Dean. That's rather unusual in some places because many deans, once appointed, contime-well, Winternita continued fifteen years, but he eane up every five years. At Yale, the deanship comes up every five years, or it did until lately, Wintaraitgts term as Dean was to end in 1935, so in 1934, the Board of Peraanent Officers began to thiak about it, and they should have the nrmination in, I think, to the Presidentts Office in probably December of 1934, I think President Griswold broke that downs Well, Dr, Well, to go back to my relatien to this situation, Suppose the faculty had nat wished to consider ae as a candidate for the Dean, or their nomination, they would have had to pick somebody else among their om ranks. I feel quite sure that the President and the Corporation would not have accepted all(y other one there, and I know definitely that Dr. Winternitz would have fought anether nomination very bitterlyo en hlm to tell him that I was letting ny name go in, he said,"B-J, if it's you, ou can 888 what I mean by that because when I called x

Page  383383 it'a all right, If it had been somebody elee, I would have flsught thema" Then I think there's a letter from President Angell to me somuhere in them papers not only asMng me what my point ef view was about certain things in medical education, but expressing the opinion also that the President and the 6orporation at Yale admired Dr. Winternitr greatly and did not particularly care to see a change. HF. Angell and the Corporatien didnet press that point. didn't have to meet any unfavorable criticism frm Woodbridge Hall. K And there was no problem at all with reference to Dean Winternits-none. Oh no, yb had a mutually reepectful relatlonshiplrslore respect onmy part, Fm sure, because I regarded hi8 as a great mancand also an affectianate re- lationskip because hewas neve( cruel to me a8 he was cruel and harsh to some people. He never hurt meo R It was a st- situation that came up in 1934. Over this deanship? Yes-Iong and continuing, sure, and it came to a head at that timath Well, the transition eccurred witheat any break in the schoolo It didn't catme a ripple. I think the problem uaa coanillcated somewhat by p roblemr that had nothing; to do with the deanshipthe whele atmosphere of the nation. That may have been, Well, we've gone IP little ever an h@m, Suppese we stop and pick it up again tolllorrw.

Page  384384 fiesdag, Hay 10, 1966 A, 19, L. M. of generalrpolicg. Yesterday wd got you ink the deanship. this period of 1 think that it'8 proper to reesrd that .. -of this as a pessibility and its final settlement I presented to you, gave it to YOU te read, the questions is ~t a matter of nine dam at besb The date of that is January, 193se 'he date of the resolution of the c faculty when they reAaumended me. ship to him. DOTU remember that? Yes. Prersident Angell mota me on January 2, and I have his letter beforo me now. He addressed it to me as the Master of Trumbull College, and he said that hela* to knm my point of View about a number of policies of Dr, Winternits iathe medical scheol bcause the Corporatdm had greatly admired Dr, Winternitz, as many others had of course, and generally would net like to see ally radical uhange in hisbolicies. Then he list8 a number of matters that \, I

Page  385he considered as especiailly important, and he asked me questions about them. know now frm what this letter recalls and repr hadwritten uotes in the margins of it that I found that I was really honestly in agreement with all of the policies that he was bringing up for consideration. I I pointed out in my reply that Dr. Winternitz and I were both trained at Johns Hopkim, that we had an inpress en os that would not be rubbed down in any kind of associatien with other scho~ls, that he in his way wo8 carrying out idms that he had absorbed and breathed in at Hopkina, and that I had dene 8me- what the same thing8 at Rochester but ody less vigerously and in a different manner from his. the kiMs of $wags that were going en in generid. like attempting to deal in- dividuallp with students. That was something that Dro Uinternitr cared for a great deal, and hat was smmthing that was very characteristic of the early days at Rmbater-aching was individualired, the students were individualisced. We had te keep some aaarkiaa; system in Rochester and at Pale too, but it was not amhing that we paid much attention to, fractional points of grade8 suc sme people think are FPPpsrtant. we looked for the mant8 chaneteriatdc8 ad hi8 manner of work. Actually Dr. Winbrnitz had beea suocessful in not requiring attendance at Ch880B; in fact, he rather urged the students, if they ciidnrt think well of a professor, not te baycstt his Clas808 but to make protests. I felt the mae way abeut attending classem. I thought it would be a pity if they didn't ge to their classes because pu never know when some very useful reanark will be made. perhaps in a long hour, or two of tires- and not very intelligent teacher student relationship some- thing will happen that will be of the greatest importance, aad it's better for students to be there and not airas it. I told Reaideat Angel1 that I muld naturally go ahead with I U 1 1 iJ We didn't try to grade student8 by + I would hve gone ahead Just about a$

Page  386Dr. Wintern'itra had been doing in the cultivation of the developaervt of the individual's respenaibility an uas exmy to answer in the same line of thought that Dr, Wiaternlsts had had. s control of his OWR fate mere or leers. That + o Mr. Angell asked about my idgas on the integration of the several depart- ments in order to foster the best teaching of the students and to foster, as I could 888 it, a great naqy other advantage us operations in a medical school in additisn to those of tesohing and patient service. It was a perfectly familiar C 1 operation to me, I had sowe of it at Htapkins, although I had relativeay little opportunity to put it into effect there when I was beginning in bacteriology, and again after the war I was aff ia B aide building, so to speak, cliter a fire, but at Rochester, 8s I think I said the other day, we had integrated teaching and joint departmental work right fran the start, and we could do it delight- fully because we were small and free and not too plagued by other responsibili- ties. I had thsught the same at Pale, although up te this mement of being made a Dean I hadntt had any special opportunity to do anything in the school along these lines. Insetting up Trumbull Cdlege I had done more than sfme of the masters in bringing to the gr0p of fellows representatives of very diverse deprtnentt3.r M had physicists, aeothteasaticiana, artists, doctors, historians, and literary people, They were all sitting together. We wet and knev about @UT separate and joint endeavors and a good deal abut the deparbeata that each man represented, That would hare been a naturaldevelopment, and I think that after I became Dean ue went along t 018 lines of helping to integrate departments. You can't in- tegrate departments by doing what I saw a la@ do in a street car with her two h 4 children, She plunked them down in the front seat of the car and coordinated their pleaaure by bumping their heads together and comaanding them to enjoy it,

Page  387387 \ That dwsn't work, and it certainly deesntt work with profzBssors. ef the spirit. We Angell saidthat he wa8 interested in the effort to integrate the mediy school as filly as possible inte the general scientific and in- tellectual life of the university. thingo university would be covered by the mesh ef the knittiag and woven into the medical school. Relations *oh would take the ole university under its aegis, but the medical schoel at Yale had always been a little bit sut efjline tmf the intellectual activities of the university and yeormd to be a part of themmore than the univeraity wauld permit, or would have the informatleu to allerrt, or invite. A good example of that--and it could came up later, the the of Hugh Long, when he was Dean in the 19508, the corporatien actually passed a vote saying that the Yale Medical School was an integral part ef the university. 1830 and 1950-it took over a hundred years to do that. It s P matter T 1 The medical schoel yearned for that sort of It ua8 Dro Winternitor8 great desire to knit it in so closely that the I explained hie ideas on the centraliaed Institute of Human - 1s 4 %at's between I don't belie= I took up Mre Angell an this point. The desire of the medical seheol was there, but the integration Kith the university depended en something forthcoming froan the university departments. this (ps I perhaps mentioned before in the CBIIO of physics. He breught a Professsr of mica ever and gave him (u1 office where he cauld consult with the heads ef departments in ita school of medicine, and it qa 8 very helpfal arrangenente Dr. Winternite had done Mr0 Angell speaka of the development through the Institute ef Hman Relations of opportunities for voluntary group attack on basic human problems. didn't know very much about. know what the point of rlsw of the ImUtute of Human Relation8 was.- I regarded it largely as a center for psychology and psychiatry. Hr4 AngeU was a psycholo- That I I couldnrt answer that very well because I didn't

Page  388388 gist and naturally interested in that line, but I have forgotten what I answered about this. I probably dedged it by saying that I really didn't bew, and in reviewing it now I'm net s~re that Mr. A~ngell indicates a genuine support ef the movement in that rather vague question that he asked. I wondered hew knowledgeable he ma about medical school affdrsrr Mre AngeU. knew a great deal about it. You can't be 8 good pgychologist the way he was without knowing about orders and disorders in the central and I peripheral IL~VOLIE( systenr. He d been in a medioal emiransent through psyehol*gy 8 good deal. He waa favorable ts ~~U,ecrl areheol acrtivities in teacbing and attended so- of the faculty meetings, tbugh not as many as Hr. Saymow did, because when I got to be Dean, I made it a point to go ever and escort the Resident from Woodbridge Hall te our faculty meetings. After a while he came en his own. 0 #re Angel1 speaks of the conception mf the hospital and the institute 88 agemiss thrsugh which the university inmediately tmches and serves the COJLI nunitgr. Well, that's a difficult thing to tamwer in the specific, though ittrr easy to answer in general. Certainly the undversity should be in closo, hmasni- e- contact with its canaunity and the goverment of its cfiamunity. Of course, I was very familiar with that sort ef thing frmecperieuce in Rochester with people like Dr. G ler, Mr. Eastaan, the Rochester Health Bureau, and the Munici- pal Hospital. ference to the hospital sad the medical schoel without saying what I thought the Institute of Human Relatiew might do in this connection* eneugh with the Institute to say. i I would have awered that, and I hope I owered It with re- I wasn't knowledgeable I don't believe it had much of a purpose in that corneutiea, except that one very remarkable professor in the Institute sf Human Relations was Arnold

Page  389389 Gesell. set up a clinic in which he could watch child developnent, He wrote those great books ~n the develspuent of the child at different ages, and he did a goed deal with cmmmity relations through child guidance and things like that. another psychologist over there named Walter Re Mles whowss 8 practical psychologist and got interested in aviation psychology and the psychologid physiology of work effort and different activities. Use in the Institute of Human Relatiom there was a remarkable man named Mark A. May who was a sociolo- gist and econdat; a8 a matter of fact, Nark ?Say succeeded to the head of the hstituts after stme yeare, after I had bscoanc Deau. He was a fellow sf "rumball College tooe Well, krk Hay was responsible in the years after 1935, of drawing in people frm the Rookefeller Foundation enterprises, and one product ef it, and I can't reamber the author cf it at the noment, - rJoha Dollard-7was a rather famous book called Clrsa and Caste in a Soutksrn Town. in the middle 1930s and this book, I think, brings out in a very clear way the kind8 of thinga that William Faulkner spoke and mete about later and Willian Hodding Carter-Just describing conditions ander which '*egroes lived and white peeple on the wrong side sf the railroad tracks as compared to tha others-that kind of thing. The Institute was in sociological studies outdde ef New Haven He was a great student of child developaent andwith a few people he So did Thatws back aa well as inside of Ne aven. + All mf this 18 very good that Mr. Angell had in mind, and a8 I says it didn't e~barrasa we at all to awer it, and I don't think I made aay excessive promises, or said aaything thatwasnft slatural fromexperience. Your reply indicates that tMs was like jumping off the dock into a swollen stream the nature of which yon weren't quite sure of, but that yeu could agree in principle with the principles he annauncedo

Page  390390 Well, the jumping off the spring board was that nine day sprint, I hadn't thought at all about being Dean mf that school. and I hadn't thought of myself as being an administrative officer of a great I hadnft atqr ambition for it, cmncern like thato Ysu indicated to me a couple of days ago that you made some Mediate chanws in the Dean's Offiae, the physisarl effice, a less elaborate place in which you f could fumtim which, I gather, haa continued. Yes, Dr. Winternit% had ctsnstructed ia the Sterling Hall mf dici.net a leng reom with two emaller room, om at each end, lavishly furdshed with oriental rugs and beautiful furniture frem the Garvin Collection at the Art Schcol. He set hiwelf up with a sort ofrega3 potentate's environment. It seemed unnatural to have a Dean of a hard working place like that in such rich and gorgeous sur- roundings. None of us ever felt comfortable going in to see his in this Hussolinidike habitation, and he knew that from the ordinar on with people fraa the to time--aomeons would ask @iW hov he was in his chit-chat that gees 9 palace and whatnst, but when I came to be Dean I couldn't bear to go inte those quarters, and I didntl use them at all. hall, a small roan that could be fixed up with swm plywood boskcases. Zgot a good desk and got scme picture8 in there, L I immediately got a roan across the It put me right next te the secretary and Miss Miriam KO Dasey the head mf Ac'haissimn8 and right next to a remarkable and able person in the medical school, Miss Lottie GI, Bishop who really ran the place, finances, km everything and was very sound in judgment. sonewhere in these recorder. Woedbridge Hall. She must appear She vas a great person to help the Corporatiorno help i She ua8 good on ploblicatians, 'here was nothing she c uldntt do

Page  391391 Yes. Shewas strongcroinded, had her opinions, and they were always goodo In term of the school.... This roam I'm talking about is still the Deaa'e Office. They haven't gone back. Mark May took Dr, Winternittts old office, but I think he let it get a little shabby so that he would feel better. That's the sunshine ef the place in a way, but yeu found in the administration of the scbed. certain committees inexistence which seed to make for nulti- plicity of talk about subjects, extension of time in which subjects would be taken up, and there is a certain streamlining that cones about so far .p1 affairs of the school are concerned, and I think the adjustment was in keeping with the feeling that you had toward the chiefs of the departments, explain that. I think you ought to I've forgotten the names of the coaemittees, but we'll get to thew in a minute. Committees get appointed and tend to perpetuate themselves. Every now and then you have to sweep then outo You do this in the government and anywhere elsee Committees are appointed for a specific purpose, a job, and when thatts mver they are reluctant to disband, but in an educational institutien it 8 natural to be changing cdttses all the time. For instance, I imagine in the early days that they had cannaittees en the imnaculate conception, but that's I n hardly in keeping with modern notions of reproductiou, snd that has to ge out,, Hou long a clsrrrmittee ef that kind stayed in depended on the parochial naturo of the institution. Y libraries, and srious parts of the school. Some are usefa), and some are not. There are committees that deal with admissions, curriculmS T

Page  392392 Some ought to be combined, and some ought to be disbanded. person who is in a position to change the cawnittees determines a great deal The attitude of the their continuation, er their stopping, although, as I r member, I don't think that I disbanded any conanittees just by a flash emotion about it, You generally talk it mar with the chairman of the camnittee, or saae of the members, Which ones yore changed? The school was .run, I think, by its Board of Permanent Officers, It was run by the Prudential Committee, Nominally it's run by the Board of Permanent Officers. This was the large committeeo Pes, bat the Prudential Committee is an old Connecticut name for an execu- Zive camittee, and it could do sane thing8 that didnrt have to go te the board, but most all things having to do with appointments, prcoootions, educational policy went to the 8 ard of Permanent Officerse its budgets went through the Prudential Committee. Budgets didn't,, As I remember NO-^^^ not SUTB of that. i Budgets were too confidential, and they went ts the Dean and fram the Dean.,., To the -Treasurer. Yes, to the Treasurer. The reason I'm a little confused is that in 1955, I made a survey of Tulane University Medical School, and I put the budget of every department in my reporto When the report w as done, the dean down there, when I asked hir what to do about coplar, said,"Send me a few,,* I asked hipn if I couldntt send one to every head of a department, and he reluctantly consented, so at Tulane in 1955, every head of ra parbent got a

Page  393393 look at the budget of every other department, and it mer cauared any trouble at all. Usually they think,"WeU, if that man sees that 'b favored by stmething, BetU crowd the Dean to favor him likewisetq, but it didnlt happen. At Yale the budgets were not shared among the faculty members. ssy. They didntt have anything to There had been two standing cornrittees that were dfscontinnnd--one was the Standing CamaDittse on the School of PPedicine and the other vas a sanding Cz- mittee en the Biological Sciences which did not meet and therefwe wad discon- tinued. - That was revived I think later an. Yes, MI a university matter as distinct from ia schosl of aaediaine! Hattero I don't remember any activity of the Casmtaittee on the School caf %cine. It didn't meet either, but it waa put up ab samething to which the Prudential Cewaittee had to repart, and it made for the delay and discussioa of natters. We got rid of thato There were two ather cemittees underneath the Prudential Cdttees--one on Clinical Subjects and one on Pre-cliafcal Subjects whichwas an arbitrary division that yeu didn'i; find very satismng, and I wondered whether there was - any- effort to build a bridge. Md we keep those?

Page  394394 Well, therets a lot of interest in these fields, but I don't haw that any ef those departments worked closely enough tegether ts deserve a committee on cmon preblems. have very different prsblems, different persmnel and different pint8 ef view, 5 4 They are all se dipsrate-clinical departwents go their own way, Same about the pre~clinical. The only other coBrmittee thak is mentioned is the one en Public Health. IhU, that was ne because that was practically a school under the nedical Public Health was kept at a departaaental status, although Dre Winslow school. would have liked to have it recegnised as a school, but it herd no endowment to speak of. It had the Lauder Fuad whichwas a slaaller fund, but its budget came through the Office of the Dean ef the school, and its appeinbnents went; thrmgh the Prudential Committee an qqx!blears which didn't need to cmcern the other pro-clinical and clinical de- parbents, and therefore a Cwmittee BR the Departanent of Public Health was a he Board of Permanent Officere. It had certain '\ dt l* good thing. The others were the study units that we mentioned the ether day, centem ef in- tellectual activity, and your view expressed here in the annual report is that they are serviceable so eng as they spark intellectual activity, but If thetg become iixed entities, y@u*rs for their disbandment, Well, they fostered intellectual activity by two or three mechanisms. One was to held meetings ef their group8 at which members of the group uould present their current waek, 8r harvo outside investigators invited into the meeting. other part of the work that the group did was supervise, or they could act in an advisory capacity ever the activities of units within the group, The study The

Page  395395 group might have people from the Departments of Hedicine and Pathology in it, and it's gesd to have some central place uhere they could pmol their interests and not duplicate, or lese track of each other. a while, them study udts, and they began to aake grants. Then they got some money after One thing hap--I think, to which -fell heir by way of a yardstick, or au insight inte the conditions of the-s~hm, and this was the rating by the AHA*a Council on Medical Educatien and _Hospitals which was as ef conditisw in 1934, This indicated, I think, the condition of the library' which is a subject ,I want t3 to cmeequently, but it was in pretty bad shape. There was swne limitation on this Councilts acceas to sufficient material to warrant some of the judgments they reached with reference te pedirrtricr, altheugh clinically that was bad, and that involved the hospital, a subject I weuld like to come to in a minute. A That was in Dr. Winternitsts time. I don't think I paid much attentien to that, Ekcept that it is a guide, a yardstick as of that mwient, and I think in the b Dean's Report you do indicate that they didntt have access to mffic)at material te warrant sone of the judgments they made. I think I probably left out of the repert that they didn't have access to enough intelligence to deal with It's a sigqpost on the road. 1 Thwe cowittees of the AMA are compesed, w a IlzLt, ef very cegservativs practftismrse R Pel, but they do issue scraps of paper, and one is cornpafled with reference to all 1

Page  396396 schools in the country, even if there are limitations on the basis of their com- parisons. nee of the sohool an he hospital was taken by the Dean*s Office, ad this is the "John Schoolcraft Preliminary Survey of the Needs of the School and the Then there is a develcpppnent which shew8 that some theught about the I Hospital", and he comes from Hanelin and Brwne, an brgaaizatisn that does this / Ai, pu renenabr tbt? I kind of 4 4" Yeap You teuch ne ou a tender spot. Yea, when you brimg that tap* I had forgottea all abut it because 8- tan to forget things that were unpleasant. Mr. `khoolcraft uas a professional imestigator working for a fina, bmlin and Brwne, that did that all over the country in sehobls, There was another one in New Pork called John Price Jonesl, and we gave it the name What Price Joues" because they would charge a great deal, cme araund the 8CheOl~ talk to all the heads of the dep8rbaents and put In a report to the president that ha8 already been given to him by his damn. school and they have to get whatever they know frem the luaubratiom of the people they intttrrisw, so they make these hurried SurVeySa This process is pushed on te the administrator sf a place by the financial side, usually, of the institutions, again, to go to this Tulane survey, or before that one# I was at Cornell-New Ysrk Hospital. There were three streng BLBVO~ by menbers of the Board of Orevernors to import an outside investiator, a management consultant to go over things. know apnough t0 touch any intellectual problem@ They don't know anything about the I think John Schoelcraft came through Mr. Farm's Office, but R 1 They can go over supply poblw and the housekeeping, but they don't 4

Page  397397 Itd better get a little water. Hold it a minute. There are some of Schoolcraft@s productisns in these papers sanewhere. I havenlt found that yet, kl One little pamphlet, Well, those peeple are good i certain field8 of management, but they are not good when it comes to the accomplishmenta of a 4 member of the faculty, what he shsuld be paid and how he should work. u t\ In terms of strftcture-increase@ in the schosl structure, what is needed, in the reports here there is smo cesatnent absut the increased need fer facilities- library, clinical beds and so en, so that with all its limitations-yeu know, it is at least again a peg which shows that there is same effort to survey the needs. - Well, responsible ackinistrators ore doing that all the tbm. This man's second hand stuff that he puts in his eports is very bpressive. I wm thinking of it in terms of what we do dl the time-nake a survey of Wan- power, and policy with respect to manpower is an effort to make some basis for the excise of judgment. better disciplined, and this may be its begitmiso eit 4 We have increased the use of this process, made it Thoae in my experience have been prompted by some narrowaainded official who wants to reduce expenereso 0 Oh boy! The very oppsite comes out. f\ I soon had experience in this Dean's Office with one of the Faembers ef the Yale Corporation whe would read my reparts and read other reporta and write me long letters about everything thatwas wrongo I don't knew whether any of those

Page  398398 are in the files, probably noto Theytre probably at Yale, Then another meralsar 1 of the hospitals was my friend Bishop Henry Knox Sherrill of Boston, Bishop Sherrill was on the Board of Managers of the Massachusetts enera1 Hospital, and he w8e a guide, or influenced the opfnion of members of the Corporation. was Dr. Fred 9, Murphy. Hurphy had been 8 surgeon in World War I, a very well-to-do man with relatively Corporation who was awe he knew all about ne~iCsl education and The third one Dro He was on the Ford Hospital Board in Detroit, little practice and contact with lasdical schools, but he was the advisor of the Yale Corporation en medical SGheOl affairs, much to the detriment, I think, of the school in sme respect8 because he didntt try to keep upo but he didnrt know the modern thing8 that were going on that had passed hino He was friendly, He was one of the self-perpetuating members of the CorperaUen. Yale has two sets ef Cerporatiea members-om are the original trustees, if you want to call them that, members appointed originally, and they have electedtheir successors ever since 1701, and they are elected to retirement age at sixty-eighte The others are elected for term of three te six years by the alumni, but Dr. Murphy was one of the self-perpetuating, permanent merabers ef the Corporation, s learned fkcm that a rule I hoped to promote at ether places, and that is to have 0 h* a succession of trustees mere responsible for the affairs of an inetitutim that is progressing through the pears, all washed by changing waves, than this man who aits On the inside and dsesdt knowwhat is happeningg It didn't take you long to run inte difficulties in floating an idea thsno No. Yga have to have an idea to run against the difficultiesr This matter of interael work in New Haven is made more complex by developaents way beyead the control of the medical wheel, th icatien for medical \

Page  399399 education and research in the conceptions, if not the plans, for participation of the federal government and the states in making provision for medical cars which cmes out at this time. There was a committee of physicians led, ,in part, by Dr. Jehn p. Peters that sgonssred a development czgainsxentrenchcd interests in the medical associations, an effort to alter thinlsfng, or to make same new oasessment. This led to a National Health Conference, the first of its bjLnd under Hiss Josephine Roache in 1938* by the Public Health Service sponaered funds from the WPA, so we had more to dmal with. These were in the air. There was the Presidentrs Interdepartmental Cdttee wbich fell heir to that body of material which had earlier come before the President's Caanittee on Eeondc Security, but which had not beer worked There was the first National Health Survey Social Security Act, particularly health insurance scheme8 which trace back to ofesaar Winslew's Committee on the Coet ef Medical Care, A$l this wew creating problem to which me would have to adjust and Wch were way beyoud the power of o medical seheol, or a university, to control, and certainly indicated that the future was going to require sorething in the way of development within the schod.. Well, if you put those ideas in the context of 1935, as revealed by these reports, the emphasis is uponretrencbment. The first task you had 5 4 to do was to cut fifty thousand dollars out ofthe budget which is the reverse _ _~ __ ~ __ - ___ ~- _- of what seems to be needed. As It= indicated to YQU, there's a sudden in- crease in gifts 84 all kinds, from institutioas, from foundatiops, frm individu- als, anonymous and stherwise, which seems to stem from revisions of the tax law in 1934, and 1935, so that for research purposee there are funds coming in peatsr sunw to the schoel, but the school itself is retrenching which makes for problems in certain areas I want to cons tc at 8- other the like nutritien, or the library, or the animal quarters, and so on,, Teday I think we way be able

Page  400to see locally the problems that medical schools were gsing to face nationally by dealing with the New Haven Hospital and the New Haven Dispensary and its problemso This is the center of the mdical school for educational and re- search purposes, and the problem are just fantastic-incredible. It does have a role in the educational proces8. Well, you can't conduct a school without ito Ybu give a very Rood account of this in this report which I'd like to put in because it sums up the problem. Let me read this: It is inpossible te describe in a few paragraphs the most iraportant of the intricate relatiens that bind together the University, the School of Hedicim, at the New Haven Hospital and the New Haven Dispensary. A brief outline will have to suffice here. only be mentioned, without full discussion or mere than an indication ef possible solutions The attetidant problems can In the Schooldospital arrangements the two strongly directing influewes are educational ideals and the conception of service to the co~~~~munity. facilities gained by its allianee wfth the Hospital, but having under- taken to contribute to the support of a general hospital, particularly one which is in fact the municipal hospital of New Haven, cannot escape the obligation to provide a certain amount of medical care for the indigent sick of the district. The New Haven Hospital and New Haven Dispensary, having agreed to put their facilities at the disposal 0f the University for educational purposes, cannot canduct their affairs as a strictly businass propositionooo The University is primarily interested in educatienal 1 It s epen ended-you knqw, As institutions needing and deserving larger nunicipal support they suffer in the battle over taxes and charges which is going on between the University and the City, as is plainly shown in the previously quoted account of hearings before the Boardcof Finance. Yau put in earlier the mayorts comment about the tax business,, and I think the request to him was for twenty th-ousand dollars, an increased appropriation for P the Dipnsary, This is just twenty thousand dollars. He weuldn't do it,

Page  401No, he wouldn't do it, but this is the basis for the school, There is no dividing line between School and Hospital and Dispensary, This is a higt4.y advantageous arrangement for the educational program of the Schoolo If this coordination of affiliated institutions did not exist, the Vniversity could not have a first class four-year Eaedical SChQOl. Without it the University would retain its ,superb departanent8 in the general field of biological sciemes, but the residue would not be worth considering as a twe-year medical schoolo That ~ut5 it on the lineo New, the University had problemso Economic fact discloses an annual appropriation from University funds somewhere in the neighborhood of four hundred thousand dollars a year, and a good bit of this is into this hospital. Where do you go? The medical school had a relatively mall endowment, and expenses were going up all the time, There was alwap a deficit, and the University made up that deficit by taking from its general income, and that general income UPS largely the income derived from dining halls and domitoriss. These were situated in the Sheffield Scientific School, or the Divinity School, Br the Yale College, and te take that partment of Clsssics, or history, or sanething else frem doing smething elm with it. They wanted ito oney for the aedical schoel prevented the De- ! The University was) I would say, generous to the rredical school considering the financial stringency of the time, It final12 reRched a point where the Corporatien had to put a limit on what they could do, 'rhey put a limit of a hundred thbusand dollars, They wouldn't e beyend that, tendent; I think he retireddames A. Hamiltono They appointed--aeaning ne disrespect to the preview superin- - He was the director of the New Haven Hsspital, and we brought him there. Hamilton was an able man,

Page  402402 Yes, he diaclosed that the hospital was being run in an efficient mannerr think you were invited to sit with the committee on the hospital. I The Medical Board. To oversee its affaire. five dellars a day--do They even went 88 far as to raise the ward prices to eu remember that? I 91 A the wayerrs reply encouraged the tom, adng that unless it w8a/vftal eaaergency, patients should gs to the ether two hespitale in the town. \ But here you are. You run a medical SChQd whieh requires this hospital for its educational purposes, and this is a big drain ~ financially. It puts a premim on effor%s to get funds, some sert of end~winent. There is a fund raising cdttee with Mro Spenser Burger. Do you remember that? the did WQ8 Mr. Spenser Burger vas a very public President @f the New Haven Hespital. rucceed in raising some money, and he apirited citilren of New Haven, and He a8 a rather well-tede man, and he gave ia good deal 6f his om. He ir a manufacturer of corretrr and some other things, but as an aide on pur microphone here, one might mention the transih Peeple thought at one the that that was to be a pennanentlp safe inverataaent. Brassieres had not come in when they put up the csrset bonds. The same thing happened when they put up the canal bonds. tb ght that canals would be a permanent fora ef transportstion in this country, and they sold the bonds on a long term basis. All these things changeo esaentiality of corset8. 4 r eople right here in Washingten i

Page  403403 I think there was an e,ffort to extend the service of the school to an annd postgraduat8 clinic for doctor@, to infona the Alumni andBsicianrs gsnerallx in the State of Connecticut that there were services avrilable at this medical center te, which they cqad ham access. was a beginning af a kind ef public relations as to what was available at Y%k, either to inform - physicians generally, or to help them in the new thfngs which may have been coming ene This worked pretty well-that is, it Io v There are twe sides to that relationship-the practitioners in a state around the medical. school-and one is good, and the other is discouraging. are a nmber of enlightemd physicians nhs support 8 modern progressive medical school and hospital and are glad te use its facilities. There There were also a great many physicians, and therewere in the Stat. of Connecticut, whe didn't approve of the Yale progrm for medical education. They wanted etudents to be turned out who could do minor medical practice right away and certaialJr would have glib anmirer8 to all sorts of questions derivable From maauals, one thing and another*aemory, people who are turned out of school uith nothing but memories of their work. OaJ. ideal at Yale, Rochester and at Hopkirtg t0,ome to teach a man method and let ha understand that every sick person is a pr8blem and not to care so much whether he learned what the leukocyte count in Geman meaales i8 on the fifth day of the disease, but to know that it is inportant to study the leukecytes, the principle of the thing, of view em everything connected with medicine, they become coacarned with methsds, procedures of investigation, a Lets of physicians in Connecticut thought that we ought to be turning out people Ha can loek up hat the figures would be, but he =us -5w If you bring up students whs have a research pcint hey don't depend on a fallible memory so much. 4 who were very slick to pull sut of their memories all ef the facts that they

Page  404404 might need. In addition I found that there was a desire OB the, part of a lot of the physicians imthe state to have their so138 admitted to the medical schod. put all sorts 0f pressure on the DeanHall the way from pelicemen. The judges @f the Supreme Csurt would came to the Dean's Office to get a sou in, or help him get in, That wa8 all right, if the man's son waa an able candidate, but tragically enough, a lot of thoas youlog mea had been inhibited by the behavior of their father's aedical practiee. They had 8een their fathere practicing successfully with tbics money-type approach that I mentioned, practical physicians whe had little insight inte the precesser they were dealing with, 89 that a student seeing a successful father with 80 little mental equip- ment, 80 to #peak, going ahead would be disinclined to do the hard work necessary te study medicine. and they didn't do well because they had an example eP success witheut effort. They 81 *hey were pragmatic, Some studente we adnitted from such a parental environment, Thatts grim. of the adrdssiens preduree I think one of the things ;you did was to make admissions a function of a sub- Since y~u brought up the students-there was a camplete everhaul 0 Therewere any numbr sf teste that w810 discarded, \ cornittee of the Prudential Committee. The Committee 01t Admlssiors. We interviewed every student admitted there. I saw them all, and we divided them among the rest of the mRePabers of the Camittee (Pa Add.ssio'sr far a8 aptitudn, is concerned, but you can't be guided by them too closely, The? are .veg go tests that a studen can take s1 I think the preblsla of the admission of students is solved by an intricate syn- thesis of a let a value en each part of it. 0 f infsrmatioa about the person, and in my case I wouldn't put 4 I did notice om thing soon, and I think Dr. Blake

Page  405405 and ethers had the same feeling, that the man who comes to you-nell, you always ask him why he wants to study medicine. A great maw sf them say that they mat t WVQB humanity and do something fsr their fellmu man. a student hasn't the motivation to survive the hardships sf a medical course. He 800n wearies ef his effort8 when he finds that the only thing that is supporting hh is his humanitarian, or sentiaoentol point ef view3 whereas the one8 who come in and say that they want to study arsdicine because ea I was a yeungster I cone ted butterflies, or shells, or got intereatedin frogs-in other werds, had a biQlQgiCd approach-they have sme permanent scientific, @r at least some penananent bielogical interest, and this carries them along. Thraugh this interest they increase their own internal resaurces. Usually you fiad such a C i You never can tell for sureo and physics that were touched on, se to speak. well in ordinary chemistry, organic chellsistry, and at least the first course in physics, but the Committee Bn AdnissOens got sorry for the poor Dean who saw all th3 students and began to let him have a couple sf what they called "Dean's choices.w I would be able to take me er two men that I theught su,ht to coats, although they didn't have any competence in organic chemistry, 8r physics, ar something elsee one particular @ne that I admitted gln tha tnsi8 had failed in organic chemistry and practically failed in physics, but he was a productive writer and scholar in Greek and the Classica, a very cultivated youngster from Charleston, South Carolina, and from a distinguished fcllnily of physicians. He graduated first in his class after four years in the medical. school, although he would have been thrown out an his preparation, They have preaedical couraes in chemistry The student a8 a rule had to do ti The other thing about students that we used as a guaga for their capacity was their National Boards-whatta called the National Board of Medical Examinersr,

Page  406406 They give two sets of examinations-@ne at the end of the secsnd year, and the ether at the end of the fourth year. so that it is advantageous for the students to take them and pass then because if he passe8 the national boards, it's easy for him to get reciprocity from the different states, He doesnrt have to take State Board Examinations in every state. once he has passed these, he 8 eligible tc pay the license fee in any ether state that he wants o go ts. fee. times. tions in the Yale School of %dicine, but not the fromotion systarr. scheols promote their students-I mean by pramotion frm first to second years and so forth-on the basis of their astanding on the National Board binaticans, but it 8 fatal for an independent educatienal institution to turn over its pro- moting system to an outside agency, so we kept it in our own hands and often advanced students wh did not do well on the 'ational Bsards and held some back who did. It 8 seful thing to have. I used to be a member of the National Board of %dicazl Examinera. cadified all the questions that have ever been asked, so itrs easy te bone up for it and prepare. These are nationally accepted examinations I A Everywhere he goes he has to pay the license 1 'hey care mor bout that than they do about giving the examinations some- ,I + 'hese examinations by the National Board took the place ef some exanina- Some I .. 4 2 They've been at it so lo g that somebody has x Once having adwitted a cla81, and the reports that you write are very good on the ela88ei-a general aver view--itts surprising the percenage of them that require assistance in going through school. MA TNational - Yeuth Administration-7 is establishod in this pried to help them, There are efforts toward a kind sf bursary fund in the medical school ts help then. A loan fund,

Page  407407 Yes, but the statistics that shew this arc quite revealing about the centent of the clb~ases. Well, we paid no att+ntion to the studentrs economic situation, if we had any means cf helping him by loans, or scholarships, or youth funda, of one tung or another. I know at least two or three who were admitted while I wae there, and they had ILB money at all. I knew one or two well-to-do men in the schavl, studenk, and told them about these eeonomicalw poor students, and they paid their way thrcsugh, prmidod I didn't discl~se the denor'8 name, and I nmmr haveo We had all sorts of way8 of trying to help them-even jeb, and these loan fund8 were very useful. The Dean is in some very privileged pasitions in thoas relatiouships, A continuing source of difficulty that runs through these annual reports are the poor facilities for houaing and dining that they hado Oh, they had squalid quarters around the %w Haven alums, and the eating arrangements were peor, usually in a basement of a twbled down house. Dr. Winteroita wasn't able te da anything about it. about it, but it's been much improved in later yearso Mro Harkness built a domitory there. much better, but they didn*t aw medical studente to go into Yale College acconrodations. disciplined students. Medical students go on a rankpage nearly every spring somehow or other, and they did their bit, but it didn't munt to mucho Iwssnft able ts do anything The men in the colleges across town lived much better, ate ?I .e/ On the wh~le though, theywere very hard working, quite well I think what is of interest when you fall heir t@ the deanship are the ramifica- tions of the problautt ysu confront. Iwas already PaEliliar with a good maw of those things, I had been ob-

Page  408serving Deans--kneu Dro Welch way back, and I had seen the other side of the Dean's Office handling similar problem, and then handling a big department at Rochester-they were all there, I wanted you to put this in because next time, and we've gone about an hour, I'd like ts show and illustrate with your help, the need for a library and it8 development, even cenfronting retrenchment and subsequently the appearance of A ar as the building and its design is concerned. Another side, I think, because of retrenchment-there is attritimn, not to say emasculation, of nutrition Within the faculty, made necessary by the departure of sfme peopl more favorable climes-Fovd and Drug Administration is one I rememberp but this ope- up a whole area that is not beinn covered by the school as suche desire to meet that problem is in this Nutrition Institute which is a very in- I I'he teresting story. The other story which we will cme to subsequently, which is a successful @ne, but net witNn the sehaol, is the Childs Fund, I think they will tend to illustrate that the problem, in part, as a Dean was to beat the bushes for support somehaw somewaz. I don% think "bat the busheeru is the best phrase that ycsu can user Ie that on? Yes, it'a en. Let me turn it eff.

Page  409Wednesday, Hag 11, 1966 A, 8. L, M, As I indicated to you earlier, going throngh e recerda of Yale and your dean- rhip, '(xi impressed by the number ef problems that come up for s@lntimrs, and theae, I suspect, can be boiled down to who to obtain, persennel, the student bee, and then the actual needsp plant needs, ideas weds for the sohosl and the funds to sustain theme Some of these are succesfUla mw in terns @f the time, one that yeu csnfronted, the Nutrition Institute, a a complex problem because it involvaar your continuatien in the deanship. arbitrarily selected because it is ccwplex and because it does involve a personal atmry, with knmwledge and approl--which I would expect, and this is another thing you do. Yeu mperate with due regard to the sensibilities of the institutimn, You have that institutional se~18e~ include it as an the Dean w88 confronted with-what to do with an idea, hsw to make it serve the needs ef the school, and ultimately decided mn grlunds that have nothing really to de with the idea, or hens tl, slip the clutch and make it move. how far you want to go, but in terms of the records that remain s~lgo indication of ysur personal views with respect to this problem mught to be in the recmrd. Then we can parallel this with that other st etch runs right along with this ow-the developaent of the Childs Fund, This happened all at the mme /\ time. There's only twenty-feur hams in a day, and I don't know how you did it all. ferreting: out the detail to be in a pesition te exercise your judgment, and it's disclosed in these papers. Some of the ideas are wvel, Itts The recorda disclose that you didn't operate lone, but operated 'I 1 " I This Is a strange story, and Iwanted yeu to 0 ple of the sort of thing which, given this period If time, I /\ C I\ 0 I dan't know I li I" - There is attention to detail here which is also syxptomatic of you- 4 I\ The nutrition story 2s an idea burgeons somehow

Page  410within the University itself, the treasurer's department perhaps, in December of 1936, and you're very shortly involved in an exchange of views with the principals. Why don't you tell me what you remexnber of these events? My recollection of the beginning uf this is very hazy. Itm not sure where the original idea about exploring a possible partnership with the food manu- facturers came from, but about the latter time of 1938, somehow or other I met with John Wesley Dunn who was the lawyer for what are called the Food Manu- facturers. ing of foods, cans. were concerned with packaging meat, vegetables, and all sorts of things. We called them "food manufacturersn, but as I say, they manufacture the containers and process the food, They don't manufacture food, but mnuf acture containers, the process- The President of American Can and groups of people who They don't make the food. There was abroad in the realm of ideas some perception of the current im- portance of nutrition, nutritional research, and the need for further develop- ments in teaching and training chemical nutrition people, dietitians, all sorts of people who could help improve the provision for and dispensing of foods. Nutrition seemed to be a proper thing to include among the activities of a school of medicine. concerned with agriculture and the process of agriculture, notably Cornello Most universities had agricultural connectionso personally nutrition was interesting to me from my connections with Joseph Goldberger and pellagra through family relationships e As I say, I have forgotten how this all started, but it moved along very It seems hardly arguable since the universities were much 0 fast. Mr, Dum whowas a very reticent, th ughtful lawyer, very precise, pushed it along through his personal connections with Mr. Clarence Francis, the Presi- dent of one of the large lood manufacturing companies, a Y'is James A. Adams, and 1 c.

Page  411411 some others, and out of these preliminary talka, into which I soon brought the Treasurer of the University, Wr, George Day, we developed a proposal that would be submitted to the University. The essential features of this proposal were that the food manufacturers would agree to provide, under conditions always subject to the approval of the University, funds for a building, income for operation for a certain length of time, and funda for use for grantsmaid. governing board composed of members of the University, distinguished public figures, and representatives of the industry. appointed by this board and policies would be determined by the board all subjeret to the final approval. of the University, The function of the Institute of Nutrition, as I recall it, was to be educational on a broad basis-for training in nutrition medical students, dietitians, nurms and actual food technologists. The service functions of the Inertitute would be those connected with making tests and special studies for the contributing industrial groupI opportunity to have the work done at the Institute on problems of concern to their particular laanttfacturing process, and they would pay for the cost of that, for materials and for some of the salaries of some of the people who would be doing the work. 'rhey would also agree to a Certain officers would be n lhey would have an In the proposed agreement was provision for a Professorship of Nutrition at Yale with the salary to cme out of this industrially aupplied fundg The proposal also conternplated the erection of a building, an extension to the south of the Sterling Hall of Medicine in Cedar Street in which the Institute of Nutrition would bet housed, Just adjacent to the existing Department of Physio- logical Chemistry, and that building wauld be paid for through the industrial contr5butioner. Talk about this proposal between Hr. Dam, Mr. Francis and

Page  412Plyself went on for quite a vhib-91r. Day in and out of the talks-and got to a point where I was able to put down on a piece of paper a 6mary of the proposal. This summary of the proposal was subnitted after prelfsninary talk8 to the President of the University for presentation to the Corporation, and I have a record of that in these papers here. as early as on May 29, 1939, Resident Seymour wrote to Mr. Charles Wesley Dunn referring to this outline of a proposal which Hr. Dunn and I had made and which I had approved, and saying for his part that he could assure Mr. Dunn that the University would be(hap40 enter into this type of arrangement, that he would be glad to proceed fro= this point with legal examination of the phraseology of a contract, so to speak, and with the final drawing up of papers for sukdssioa to the Yale Corporation and he Food %nufacturers for adaption. I have given a suamtary, but I can say that b I went ahead all through the spriag of 1939, and into the summer and fall wtth a good many more talks and increasing enthusiasm for the fundamental ideas in the conception; namely, the partnership tetween Industry and a University, between Yale University and the Food kanufacturers, in an educational and re- search undertaking of considerable magnitude in a field thatwas obviously very inportant and easily predictable as one of the developing: areas of scientific medical and public health work not only in the United States, but in the worlde It seemed to ape to have great possibilities for the advancement of the University*r renown and the University's contribution to knowledge and 8ervlc8, and it seemed to ne to be practically of benefit to the University by the funds that would be brought in to erect a building that wa8 needed, to provide a professorship that was needed, and to provide opportunities for the Universityts participation in an educationdl program, Most of those, in fact, all of those major issuers that were of pr- concern to the University could not be undertaken at this the because funds were net available in the University treasury. The food

Page  413manufacturers were enthusiastic about the plan because they saw benefits to their own industries properly, and they saw an opportunity for them to make--how can I say it- patriotic contribution to the welfare of the country, and I think they had the highest motives. Well, this carried aloag in the sedical school with occasional mports by me to the Prudential Committee of the Yale Medical Scheol and sane rather long talks with some of the professors about it. It led in the late fall of 1939, to the drafting by Mr. Frederick H. "Frits" Wiggin, the legal adW!br of Tale University, of a draft of a contract, and that was done, I think, in December ef 1939. After having worked over this with W. Day and Mr. Wiggin it waa sub- mitted to Mr, Charles Seymour the Presideo% of the University for consideration at aa encoming meeting in December of the Yale Corporation. prepared to suiclait this proposed agreement to the Yale Corporatien at the mid- December meeting, but as I understood it-I wasn't present at the meeting, b t I was told that Mr, Seymour hardly began to speak about it when there was a very strong attack on the whole thing led by Mr. Dn Acheson. his .- rHr. Acheson's - 7 reasons for doing that, so I would only be making surmises, if I should guess them now, but I have a written statesent which he approved as a member of a subsequently appointed committee to oonsider this matter with me and in which he put the reasen on the very high ground of the preservation of the integrity and the independence of the University against possible corroding ccnnmercial interests. 1 Mr. Seynour was \ I never knew Well, Mr. Seymour, I understand, did not tell the Corporation about the letter8 of approval that he had given me in May for the activity I was carrying on, the work I uas doing urdsr letters in which he said that the University and he would be happrto have this undertaking prosper, so the Corporation at this meeting--smeuhere in raid-llecember, on a Saturday-bmediately appointed a Cam

Page  414414 mittee to consider the matter with Be as Dean. They very courteously came over that Saturday afternoon to the Dean's Office which was in the School of Medicine. Considering the dignity and the eminence of the committee members their coming over to meet with me was a great compliment and a respectful action, The coma mittee wa8 composed of Hr. Acheson, Hr. George Day, Dro Murphy, Bishop Sherrill, and Judge Thomas Do Thaoher. long meeting of about three hours or so* Their opinion w~dp expressed really at the start and not changed by the long discussion, and that opinion was essentially as Ifve outlined, that while Yale would be interested n this field as an academia undertaking, it waa not interested in having a relatiomhip of the type proposed with the cacrmercial manufacturers. They didn't draw up a final report at this meeting, bat they adopted some phraseology which- largely produced by Bishop SherriU, saying exactly about what Corporation members could not allow the University, or any officer of it, to put the Univeraity in the positirm of having this kind of relationship with the commercial food manufacturers. They came into the Dean's Office, and we had a Q already said, saying that the That's the way it was le t at the end of that meeting. The committee then reported, I think, verbally to the President and maybe gave him saw0 memorandum, but on December 10-well, the Corporation neeting was on December 9, 1939, so it was earlier than I indicated by my earlier reinarb. had met with me, I wrote the President a note about the Igeeting and gave him not only a ~~ll~nar only the proposed Bdssion of the institute, the proposed governing of it, the proposed financing of it and including a fraak expression of the plan that provided for a temporary annual gift rather than an outright gift, but we were talking in terms af over a million dollar8 for the whole thing, but 1 ab o wrote B Right after the cdttee of what bad taken place, how Mr. Day and I had explained not

Page  415President Seyrnour that while I should deeply regret to see this undertaking fail, I had a feeling that if the University adopted the point of view of this special committee, it was probable that I would nof be akle to go on as Deane That's the way it was left for a number of day8,until later on in the month when I had had one or two talks with Nr* Seymoiir. Christmas vacation and came backusnd at the end of that time I told President Seymour that the action of the special committee, which obviously had the approval of the Corporation, and hi8 failure to support the approval that he had given me previously, earlier in the spring, for proceeding with the negotia- tions made it impossible for we to go on with the deanship%or another term. The reasbn I could say that I was in a position to speak of another term was because the Corporation had already appointed me Dean for another term, be- ginning July lst, 1940, to run until 19hS. I would be no good for my school and no good (88 (an officer in the administration under Mr, Seymour because I can't conceive of a person, any person, so defeated after thinldng that he had the approval of the highest officer in the University, going ahead and pretending to be a loyal supporter of his chief when he couldn't possibly be a loyal supporter under those conditions. Well, I did tell him that I would resign, and I thought I wrote a letter of resignation, but apparently it's not found in these papers. up at New Haven. He want away for a I felt that if I took this licking, They my be in the Dean's papers Hr. Seymour was apparently aurprised at the action, and I know that he was Everything that happened after that, asking me to reconsider, very much upset. or expressing any opiniomr on my resignation was all highly favorable. a very unhappy situation in spite of the, fact that these commendations were coming in on account of any past activities, including a coemaendation from It was

Page  416Mr. Seymour, but I went ahead after that and finished out my tern as Dean, ending June 30, 1940, The timinE of this is important-in the sense that this matter of nutrition jells at a time when the committee is appointed to s eek the reappointsent of the Dean in December of 193q0 You did have sme misgivings about the Dean's Office in terms of the load, the amount of work, the need for assistants-well, at the same time you were twng to balance other work on which youwere engaged3 namely, the Childs Fund. I didn't in the Deanta situation involve ally consideration of the Childs Fund at this time because I think that had been mre or less concluded before all thie happened, but, you see, they start to consider the next Dean in December of the last academic year of his tenure a8 Dean. meetings in December, and they came up with a recommendation for my raappointment --I wean, the faculty of the medical school, the permanent officers. They bad the usual I wrote to the President expressing very great appreciation for that and for the indication that he had given me that the Corporation would approve the facultyts reemendation* but I had some things in mind that were needed for the Dean's Office and for the school that I wanted to talk over with him and try to get settled before accepting the banship, that concerned administration, finance, and personnel, I wanted an assistant dean to help with the administration of the mhool. physician as a health officer for the studente, an ausociate dean, and more help for the executive secretary of the school. Miss Bishop, and she was terifically overworked withuhat had to be done. ua8 always a wed for supervision and maintenance of the buildings. buildings were very hard to keep up to Yale standards, There wa8 a group of questions I hoped to get a salaried The executive secretary was There T'ose big ii The Yale standards were

Page  417417 very high on building maintenance, but they conldn*t be carried aut even, I should say, two-thirds with the then existing allowances for the Yale Medical School. Those were the things, and I had other questions of policy, When one is working in the position of a Dean he sees thousand of problems that he can't sQlve, either becaus he doesn't know what the answers could be, or should be, and usually in the case of a burgeoning medical school like Yale at this time, the solutions depended upon the availability of funds, and they were short of funds. About those things I wanted to talk with the President, and I did have an opportunity to sp , 4 with hi8 around the middle of December. Host of those points he agreed to. He was quite willing to make those allowances, add ad- ministrative assistance, Rnd a paid position for the care of the health of the students, would. be granted. It was too much, and yet they needed repair, and they needed alteration. : 4 Those were settled, at least theywere settled hy saying that they 0 I think the top paragraph here is what brnke the canel's back. I Well, the paragraph--I said in the letter of December 10th ts MrI Seymour that the most serious problems were those related to the plans for the Institute of Nutrition uhich had been discussed last week wuth the Corporation% special committee, and I did tell the President-I read it here now-"The decision reached involves questions of my judgment and regard for the welfare of the University. efficera of the central administratfon and my colleagues in the school and the outcome of further discussion of the colranitteecs action will have a profound effect on my standing and my fitness toserve the University usefullyaw It involves also the relation of the dean to the president and other Well, the outcaate was even worm than the cdttee*a; formulatien of their

Page  418418 ideas because it was an absolutely closed iasue after that, What intrigues me, and I don't know that you have anything to add a8 to haw they got to this final vote. You've found in a file a handwritten note in ~cly handwriting marked "A copy ef the Yale Corporation's records of a vote taken on by 11, 1940, voted on a recommendation of the Committea on Educational Policyn--thatwas a new committee that had been formed--"that the establishment of a ktional Institute of Nutri- tion be approved in principle, it being underartood that ydets participation in the institute should be conditioned upon approval of the Yale Corporation of the personnel sf the instituters board of direotora plans far its organisatloa and functioning," nd advisory camittees and the li. This is a general statement of procedures and authsrhations that were in the original planning, that all of this be approved by the University. vote approved in principle and leaves out all the details that I have mentioned- the financing and metheds of governing the institute and its functions and its mission, the building. This is a broad statement, This But the sub-committee of the Corporation set limits for the discussion which had already been rejected as between the University and the food manufacturerso Yes, and they wanted me to go back and see the rame manufacturers that had told me originally that those limits would not be acceptable, I couldn*t do that o What I have thought since this happened was that it did come as a new sub- ject to the Corporation at that time, although the President and the Treasurer knew what was going on, and Mro Seymour in his letter to Mr. Dunn said that he

Page  419had not been able to bring this to the Corporation, that he had saved the by speaking to some of the ambers personally# and that he could now write to We Dunn that we would be glad to do ito if it tjad been rcsviewed earlier by the Yale Corporation, and I have a feeling that Mr. Acheison didn't know much about it before he cane over Office. I think that was less impressive than It waa a new thing. A great deal was lost iB terns of its potentialo I think a great deal was lost because nutrition has forged ahead as one of the most important subgects in worid economy-food for the population that is evemhelning the space of the earth is a major consideration now, been great advance8 in nutrition, and there are still great advances coming on. My interest continued because froan 1950 an, or 1951 on, %e been a mmbr of an extraordinary camittee called the Interdepartmental Gemnittee on Nutrition fer dational Defenae composed of members af the Amy, the Navy, the fir Force, the State Department, the National Institutes of Health, the Public Health There have ?mifx?, the big agencies like AD, and with a far ranging program and studies af nutrition practically of thirty-flve countriee in the warld so far, and it's done a lot of good, but I*ll tell you about that later when you get around to it. The letters to you-they don't reach the question of the institute because the reasona given by e mhool-I said %y the I don't know, In arty event, what is reported in the press is the overall pressure of work and the desire you have to do certain specific things-like continue with the efforts to seek en- dowment for the school, to continue todevote attention to the Childs Fund, and to Ret bock to work in bacteriology which youfc? left some time ago9 but the I 1

Page  420expression of support-theregs a collection of letters here that They were wonderful letters. They came from people who sight have written quite contrarily9 if you just take disagreements of opinion, but thesegar@ very areTjust in- personal letters I don't. know the extent to which the school understood the basis for this, Let me sag that I would exEct that you would not disclose the deep personal -- questions of reliabi1it;Vand integrity which were involved in the non support of a view which had all thsarancea of being supported up to a point. the rug p$ed - out from undernttath you. You had - I ddt think after this happened I went around and talked about it at all, I don't think I sade any defense. Mr. Seymour. I dontt think I made any defense with I think I jus$ said that this has been done, and I can't take it. Right- I think it was dropped and ;kou went on. Incredible-you - kuow, what was the state of nutritioa at the school? -- The nutrition had been a subject of interest at Yale for a long time. Professor Chittenden shortly after the Civil War became a leader in physiological chemistry in America. He had studied abroad in Gemaqg on the composition of proteins, food stuff, and psptoms, and he was himself a dietary fadist because he ate a little bit, but he ahest fletcherized, abued a certain number of d 4 times. Hr. Chittendenwas a mal1 man, slight, not tall, with a pointed beard, glittering eyes, springy step, full of energy and ambitions, lad the Bheffield

Page  421Scientific School into the rank of an almost independent university and greatly admired hiPle dica scheol-$wo men with verydeep interest in nutrition, Lafayette Bo Mendel and Arthur He Smith. Then there was George R. Cowgill there also, so that there wa8 EL nucleus of nutritionistj atyale. Yale had a School of Nursingthat '(58s on a high grade- weU talk about that later too, but the School of Nursing required a bachelorls degree for entrance, and the School of Nursing had very intelligent women con- cerned with the nutritional state of patieuts, and they Just weren't merely dietitians serving plates of soupo and haw it was metabolized. because of dl the deflciencSerr that are consequent upon defective nutrition and the supply of food and types of food, relation to their diseases, Qr def'iciencies were of considerable interest te Dr. Winslow and to others who were studying the cost of medical care and surveying the health of the people, so there was a very good tradition of nutrition at Yale, but not a well endowed, or opulent effort. He had with him men that gloved over to the k They wanted to know what was in the soup Publfc Health naturally wa8 interested in nutrition The social COaditiQnS of people in There was so-thiag to build OD and much intereat. As far as informing the faculty of the stages of these negotiations, I must tell you truthfUUy that I didn't because the conversatiom between Mr. Day, Mro YiRgitr, Wr, bnn, Mr, Francis, and myself were fluid conversations. weren't fixed, closure until a contract was agreed upon, and you find out in life, or when you're Dean, or anything else, that when you broadly discuss uncertainties, you add to the uncertarlntios+ I didn't feel at liberty to talk about sme of these things in general, but they did knew, the Prudential Connoittee did knw, and I They They probably wouldn't be ready for dis- They werentt readyo I

Page  422422 had one or two, as I recall it, very serious, sort of controvereial talks about it with Dr. John P. Peters who himself might be considered in the nutritional field. His great study on bodywater was, in 8 sense, a nutritional study, and he was interested in nutritional metabolism, a very brilliant mab to tell you about Jack Peters, but I really don't want it fan this recerd. I would like On%e part of people whO didn't understand the real basis fm- tion to continue With the deanship how maw brought pres8ure on you to continue? They were pleased with your deanshi, *h sure, because their lettern.... - Yea, you showed me one frm berson Rzttle, if I can immodestly refer to it mprselfo thinks that my deanship ua8 the happiest five--oh, he s aid,"I cannot remember any five years ef a Deanrs administration here more successful than yoursan President Seymour said somewhere in one of the88 letters that he That's an accolade. Well, when the school faced a chai abrupt as it waaLwithout a kind of fore- warhing-I don't know that you can have a forewarninp;, This is the nod course of events, and if you decide for grounds that are reasonable to pa not to continue I suppose they have to accept ito I was chosen, considered, and appointed in about nine days, or ten days, and the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away in about the same time. E uess youtre right. This didntt tako Auch more than nfns days. I No, but the search for a new Dean..., Yes, they started right away on that. They discussed it with Alan Gregg

Page  423423 who would have been a wonderful Dean, but Alan Gregg was not interested in school administration. He was the administrator of a great section ef medical. education and medical research of r;he Rockefeller FOundsrtiOQ, and Alan Gregg, tall, eloquent speaker and writer and it-he was very wise and very attractive, and he didntt want to be Dean, and I think he told then 86. What they did- they compromised nd made Dr. Francis Blake, the Professor of hdicine, also a very able man, the acting Dean for the year, and he remained Dean until-this was in 1940, and he w as Dean at least until 1950, at least ten parso Then Hugh Long bok on aa Dean. 1 That's an irrterestiug pe riod, Do y~u have any sense of criticim of your deanship? You indicated te me the other day that in the development af overall plans tt you weren't a plasner. Yon said this. indication of this because Itve bumped into all kinds of plans that were goin on, maybe not an overall plan, .c-- I dos't knew that you had any I told pu that there -vas criticism of me for being not the kind of planner that Winternits was, for example, broad conceptions of a whole missionJ a whole scheol. me for dicussion frola the heads of departments. I had marly plans for individual situations, and most of those came to I didntt feel that 1 was a mesaiah Of mSSdiCim0 That's a good way to put it, but then I think also the tha did their bit ts - condition this because the emphasis was onretrenchment. Yes, the times-well, it was rather dismal in some respects. Wet11 get to tonaorraw, if we can, the positive explorati_on of funding, the Childs Fund. It ran parallel to the nutrition study, and it involved planning

Page  424both with reference to pessibilitiss inherent in the school and beyond the schoolts control as an idea which is new amd novel tooo Let Be say it before I forget it. You say it was nplanuingriw It was accidental o TO you-it came over the transvme to you, But the manner it was established once it functioned was a plan of great significance so far as the school was concerned--it eventua-ted in a positive way, though the detail of its beginning may be quite accidental and indeed was, There are two ways that I think about planning. one is to sit down with a blank sfaeet of paper and draw out a schene of urban developsaent or whatnot. That's the architectural type of planning. tss. You could just say, as you would of a house, that you want 80 many moms for this, or that and aay of Q medical school that you want so laany departments of this and that and sit down and draw them up from nothing, but the kind of planning I was engaged in, and yeu have to in an instltutien like this, was to deal with the sections bf it that are already in existence, Mr. Angel1 told me one day when I was talking about the future of the school,"B-J, you know, these great institutions have a momentum of tbir own, so it matters very little what anybody in a position of authority does with themon That applies to intellectual planning I think thatts truee It is a wise comrnento He didn't mean for me to lie down on the job.

Page  425425 But there's something inysteriours about an instituion. It has a life and vitality, His word wae %ornentum,~ It dees continue in its direction, unless it's acted on by soneecternal form. Rut in that pried when you had to decide whether to be .or not to be Dean-it mi lib juraping into a huge 8WOllOn stream, And a good bit sf ths atsaosphere and the problems you confronted as Dean related to 8 crisis mer which vou didntt have atqr control-the whole sense of retrench- menk, the depression, and the new and novel ideas that were popping out of the groundL new organizations to challenge the older, staid, and more conservative organizations , Ideas sf medical care and social elements in medicine were in a state of flux and argunaent at that timeo I guess we've exhausted this, fi~~ys Seyhowl > Let me read Gladys's letter.(I see here-hat Charlie waso... 4

Page  426426 Thursday, May 12, 1966 A-60, Ne L. Me I've already indicated that I would like you to deal withbhe developments in the medical library at Yale today,, Again, putting this in a context-while it may be^ a little too logi~al-~h aware of the fascinating people who are in- volved in the development of the library, but nonetheless there is a crying need in the Dean's Reports about this facility, its role and function in a medical school, and its condition is deacribed as wholu inadequate. I That's 4 CS not only the Judgment of the scjool itself, but also of the ApllA Committee vhich came around to asseia the school-well, thereb just this enormo need viewed against this period of retrenchment in the 1930~~ What to do about it, haw to pet it started? It s a human story to@$ quite apart franthe econogdcs, and there are a number of very fascinating people involved-Dr. Cushing with wham you'd had some relationship all the way back, I believe, to Hopkinso r\ I I rn Yes, I was there when he -!a8 there,, Amd Dr. John Fe Fulton, a etrangar fellow in his own way, and any light you can shed en the marriage between the times, the rwed and the personalities here to develop what I have pictorially represented here a8 the historical librarg and the working libraq. What date do you want to take off from? The earliest date you have is In the Report cf 193501936, and itts that .- That early 1935-1936 Report, my first Dean's Report, points eut the in- adequacies of the library, quarters, and it lacked money for acquisitions for new books and subscriptions It was a very small collection housed in inadequate

Page  427427 to journals. resources either in funds, or collections, to be done about it, but they didn't know how to do it, 0r when it should be done, and, as I recall, the building up of the medical library was not in aw high priority in any scheme of fund raising, for profeaser's salaries, staff salaries, or for the support of the working de- partments, that the library appeared a little bit off on the side and didn't arouse enough intererst. It had very little prospect at that time of getting any incrarased Everybody knew that something sught There were so many more urgent needs You asked me where the library fit in to the functions of a medical school, and I take it YOU mean in the course of medical education. every phase of the life and activities of a school of medicine that has any educational ideals, in the first place, and any service ideals, in the secoI1CZ. It is a stare house of a ~1" come in contact With, the thoughts of the past, for the recent past as well as for the far past, or the distant past. It s a place in which doctors and students can come int0 contact through the perusal of journals with the current thought of all sorts of physicians and investigatops of the time, physical nature of books, illustrations, portraits, and diagrams and all the appurtenances of publication have in medicine, I think, a8 they d0 in any other professional activity, a stimulating value just of themselves. thing to have a copy of Vesalius, wet11 say, the great anatcmry of Vesalius in your hand, It has a bearing on e knowledge of the past, a place where you can meet, I n 4b It i8 also a meting place Not only is it a repository of ideas and thoughts, but the very It's a wonderful That book had an enormous influence on one of the founders of the Yale Medical Historical Library3 namely, Dro CUshingO For me, thoughts about a library in a medical 8ChOOl went back as far--I link He had a copy of the Fabrica8

Page  428428 i gain to my grandfather Joseph Jones who flLLed the house witi: beoks, mostly his om corapositiorrs, hut they were there, Then at the Johna Hopkins Visitfag the libraw, studying in the librarg, and going te original BO'~C.Q was almost a# natural as golag to the c\lrrentlecturem. It was in the aire Dr. Welch did It, and the Osler Library in Torento now is one of the greatest collections of medicrl boeks, and Dro Osler fnfluemed very aueh the man who ua8 prabably the main actor in raising the cwtain for the drama of the Yale Library, Dr. Cushingr Dr. C~hfng was very nuch influencod by Dre osler, probably was lard into the collaetien cDf boob by the example of Dra Oiler, Dro Cushing had been an Asseciate Professor ef Surgery8 a great experimenter at the HopMna, and ho carriod that same impress with him to the Brighaun Hospital. in Boston and breught it with increaaed richluss and pwer to Yale when hew givon a plaos $hero through the activity of Dre Winternlta after Dro Cyshingts retirment from Ward Mediad SchoQl. 1 think that mast hare happened oarly in tho 19308, when he came dcmn to New Haven. + Of course, the great bibliophile thsro from the very beginaing was Dr. Osler, Well, It seem utimatio that the library should be the heart 0f a great institution of learadng, and so it was at Yale. the greatest libraries iR the country, and In additlea at =ala they had very rich departnentrl libraries which was one tHng I and 8me ethers worked against when we began tb build up the Yale dial Library. bts of books that ought to have been avallablo s~aily to the medioal students were in the departmental The Sterling Librarg Is one sf libraries of ehedotry, physics, br biobgy-all -I? way across town-and since h this Yale Library wa8 built up, many of those deparbaental collections have been put ia the Yale Mediad Libram* r1 The tiab~aas ripe, Ihe need u.8 thwa)) and the the wae ripe for doing

Page  429429 something, and the doing of it, I think cae about I really feel miraculously and accidentally through the presence On the faculty of two great book collectors; namely, Dre John Fulton and Dro Hart@ Cushing. They knew and trusted each other, and they had Priends also am@ag other collectors; ntmely, Dr. George #. Smith who had a great colleotion of books, and Dr. Edward Strareter Who had the moat famous collection of pharmacies, measures and ueighta. 'hey had another friend in Switraer'lazd, Arnold neb, the son of tb great bacteriologist Klebs, who had much ts do With early stadloa on tuberculosis and diphtheria, wa8 a man of culture with an interest in history uhich he prusaed on to his 808. Dr, Arnold neb8 in Switr;erlad had specialised in the collection of incaaabula, and he had probably all the incunabula of medicine1, He had a huge collection. 4 r Dra. Cuahing, Fulton, and Kleb slowly foraed I won't say a partnership, but a very close relationship bound together b their intierest in books. influenced by the need of Yale for a great library in the medical school, and tbey were, or at lea Dr, Cushing and Dr. nebs were reaching the point in their lives when theywere beginning to think ofths disposa of their rich collections. Dr, Fultonrs enomow colleution which he had been raking since he was a student at Harvard ua8 in the possession of himaelf 88 a young and vigorous man who expected to live quite a lot1 agere He WUI not yet ready Os give it outright to Yale until he knew what these other men were going to do, They were x i Now this takes u8 up to ab@ 1936-abut that time. There was much talk awl negotiation, letter writing, as te when Dr. Cushilng would make a move, Dr. nebs make a move, and Dr. Fultonmaks a move. Somehow or other they managed to move along a oongenial trio. The first real step to the library project-If I could call it tha-88 Dr, Cuahing. IIe made it very plain that if provision could be made for the housing of his books, he would give thesrr. A

Page  430430 Once he did that, his friend Rlebr said that he'd do the ,me, and ia due time Dr. Fulton prdsed to give his books, but there was no place for 8 building, and there was no money for a building. k- That's where the Dean came in rncmt3.y because he had a little say about calling meeting8 of people and dealing with the authorities in the University,, very important ia the influewe upon the University was a clss friendship between Dr. Gushing, Dr, Wilvrarth Lewis, and the Treasurer Mr. Taa %maraa and it WMI really through them, after they'd convirrted Mr. Far-, that the Corpora- tion at Yale voted to make available a sura of money from the Sterliag bequest, the sane source of aoney that had built the Sterling Hall of bdicine. There wa8 a lot of land still round Oreenwich, Connecticut, in the Sterling estate, that could be sold for purposes like tMrs, and they said that they would build a building for the historiaal library particularly, and, of' CBZPTS~, aobody wanted just the historical library. The ideal was a whole modern library as well a8 a historical libraly. Theydecided hen that they would be able to put up the money for a buklding in part fran Sterling funds, for the historical library chiefly, and in part fromregular University S@UTCBS~ 4 \ L k There was much dirpute as to where the library should be, The lot of land where the Sterling Hall of edidtw wodl situatad waa crowded with buildings, but there wa8 a vacant space on Davenport Avenue near Cedar Streeto where nr. Attorbury, the arohiteet eaplqed for this plan, thought it would be fine %a build a beautiful aarrble-larhat f wsuld eall a uu80leum for the hOU8ing of thps library. Dr. Cuehiag and I felt opposed to that and so did Dr. EUton becaaae it put the library out of the nod traffic of the rtudent$ and the faculty members. for them to fall into, $0 they decided that the building ebould be oathe lot of the Sterling Hall of hdicintr, but where? They night visit it as a curiosity, but we wanted something

Page  431At that time om wing of that building extending from the center ended in a verylarge aaiazdl house. you'd enter. We're talking about a plan of a building, way, atd rfght about here was the aairral house-fkll of dogs and monkeys. served a8 the animal quarters sf the whole school, and yet this wa6 the very loortion that agreement from departmental heads a8 to where the animals might be housed. Finally soae alersieion had to be made, and I took the liberty ef issuing a suggestion that tho animal home be abandomd, torn down, and the aniaals moved mer Into the bareaent of the Bra* Building. %at- done through the good will of the people CoIyCerasd and to %ha great discarrrrfort of the p%ople over in the Brady Buildinge The stenah from the anlnals went all thrmgh the building, through Dr. Winterait%*a, bpartaen%, through tho %raing School which ua8 housed OII the flrst floor, through baoteriologJr p om the third floor and teaching on tb second floor. Of course that was on the land where the New aaven Hospital. was skted, and the noime of barking dogs and opewing cats was disturbing to the patients, Ilr sure. But thatrr the only place we could find to put the ani8lala. We knew it was tenporsrp, and, a8 a matter of fact, since that time they have a modern, air-conditioned, soundproof animal quarters that are beautiful aad very salubriour. If y~u'll turn those plan8 around, you'll see how This is the entrance It 8 most favorable for the library. 1% was difficdt to get auy b i; Well, hadrag decided en the plaee for the library, the plan then developed in the form of a extendimg out in two wings in 8 Y shaped nanmr into the back yard of the Sterling Hall of Wisdieine property. It up8 a scheme that gave plenty of light, plenty of ventilation, aad qaite a lot of room. The balldlsg was planned there to ge down belw the greund about Mree atories, to be thoroughly air-conditioned, rising abou the ground about three sfaries, and that's the way it came out a wing extending ut frm the center of the building and x) \ k

Page  432432 fidly. There was Q~W period of great uncertainty and that, a s I r emeaber, was 1939, jU8t after the OUtbr88k Of World 11 in Eurepe. The OCCasiOD Of the outbreak of the war uaa taken by certain officers of the University as an excuse for proposing an abandomuent of this plan at this momeIlf,. Their argument was that if the war uab cdng en, steel would be in very short supply, coats would go up greatly, aad it would be difficult to get labsr. Wery possible objection wm brought in, even ia 1939, when the Uniked States wa not in the war, but aa a ratter of faat I know later from the things that Ita studying for the hiatory Ita writing of Preventive Hedfeine, that there ma, a very early per- ception of the possibility, or the probability that the United States would join in the President Roosmelt declared a "limtted national emrgeneym in September 8, 1939, ow week after brmatqy had imadsd Polaod, so it was reasonable that the authoritiee at ale, who knew all of that, would think that this library pro3actweuld becaw involved in wart- stringencies, that it tr0uldnt.t be a favorable moment to undertake the construction and equipment of a library, were same very emotional neetings and much worryo Some of these conferences took place at y houre on Trumbull Street. Others took pace at Dr. FUtontr house, and at Dr. Cushiagts home. Hr. Wilnarth S. Lewis was a moderator of a good deal of this and brought to bear 80118 very good setme and per because always as a member of the Corporation he supported the libraries and museum$ at Yale. The central University Libraw, the art echool, the Peabody Muse- all benefited iron 1Ir. Lewis's effort. Fortunataly the authorities of the University 8818 the opportunity to attraot these Irreplaceable collection8 of Dr,Cwhing, Dr4 Puten, Dr, Kleba, Dr. Streater, arad porsibly rrarethhg frem Dr, Smith, although he didn't putnueh into it, tc the University if there were tr mere L

Page  433433 suitable housing for them on the medical school grounds, and so that prevailed. 1 S It 8 been a very great mcces8-re~om in the United State as om of the I( T moat valuable medical librades in the coutlttry, fabric of librarles at Yale, country. historical and the modern medical library, but also by the phyaieiaas of It's integral1 woven into the It has relatioas with a he libraries in the I -4 It s extensively u8ed net only by the students and faulty, both the rn Connecticut. They have free access to it, sad there is a loan serVioe for then to it, so in many, many way$ fram the human side as well a6 the intellectual side, it has been a nost valuable additioarto the scheol and te the University. How, what kind of thing should I say More about? This plan-just to fix It in tire-as apprmed bo eat by the Corporatien ou p"ps 8, 1937, and the appropriatien, I tbi@ $6oo,OOO wad voted by the, Yale Corporation on June 21, 1939* to site andAenera1 lay- Y0u me) they apprmed the plan two years before they approved the support of it, and, a# I say, the plan existed then, but when the war came on they were just going to let I mst came on the eve4une 21, 1939. %a interested riot od..iri tho, collection of books as a forn of4 collect books. So did tr Yes, so did you* I think ultimately you depositedo.,, , I gave Yale about four thousand books, but he ones I gave to the Yale i Medical Library were the books I had collected in my om field, I had prac- tically all the original publications in bacteriology, publications took the form of books in the textboaK line, but in the monographic Now, bacteriological tw- A

Page  434434 line, they ere what you'd call pamphlet type books. Theywere specialired monographs on ls18'11.r subjecb, parts of it. Most of the bacteriological litera- ture was spread in the journals, Pasteur, however, publiahed considerable books on the dis~ses sf beer and Wine, his molecular dissymmetry s%udbs, and I had all of Pasteur's books. Robert Koch, the other great founder of bacteriology, published mostly In journalso His work has been collected, but the original works are in Journals. for tbia library* t I gave all that to Yale. It wa8 in the air to do things Mro Starling WO Childs and Miss Alice Coffin got interested in it, and in addition to the Childts Fund for Medical and Cancer Research, the Childs Estate and Miscs Alias Coffin, who wa8 Hr* Chila' sister, gave money d3.reetl.y for the support of the library, medical research. There's a Childs Fund for the library cseparate from the In addition, On the advioe of sanebody-I don't know-very he advice, the Dean set up the Yale Library Associates and got qate a great group of fine people to pay ten dollars or more a year, ametirnes more, to help give fund8 for buying books. in this effort to get books and associates for the library was a lady in Pittsburgh rMrs* - Rachel MeNasksrs Hunt1 who had a great collection of herbals, She gave only a feu of those books to Yale, but she was a great helpo She was a relative of Mr. Child8 to0. Students got interested in it, and people gave money for subscriptionso It came right along. Now, I don't know how may journals they take, but it's really an up to date place as well as a fine historical laboratory. one of the person8 I was fortunate to xaeet One person webe mentioned who has had some continuity with the library since

Page  435435 its opening, its dedication-. Fulto those early days after it opened, show the difficulty of funding the actual ,and the records that are here cwering I' work of the medical library whic quired 8cl~e helpthe Starling Child8 Fund. \ It's a beautiful place-as you can 888 from the representation here,, u Dr. Cushing provided for support in his Will, and Dr. F ltonb Uife, Lucia, 5 had a fortune of her and I think that John, a rather hpecunious student, p~cheed most of Ma books through gifta frm her , and she's very nodest. You d hardly know how mch good she does. to the support of this library. Certainly qhe did for Jopra collection. The library %a a beautiful building. It'a trs$fully designed, It 8 an irmpiring place-good for exhiMtiow, geod for metinge. t 1% sure she mu8t have coartributed r 4 \ 11 n I ! 8ar it rerred in term6 of its original design 011 a catch41 Oh yes, it's crowded all the the. They walk la there and spend a lot of tlxne-so much so that ltts opened Wll midnight,, The medical hietorical side ie buiL in an ornate Tudor combination, great huge beams, pendants, pendentives, galleries and carvings, whereas the working, or at least the current medical library is a stark, induatricil. type of building. You can see It there in that picture. Theretr no ornamentation to @perk of, but bright and very pleasant. All the wall spaces of the entrance hall are hung with pictures and prints which are ch8nged constantly, and there are beautiful case8 in which exhibits of perioda, publicatiorps, and mens biographical things, are put on from time to time by the deroted He8 Stanton and other people on the staff, It's iaterestltag that two birds were killed - with oas atom-the rumor or the thought that Dr, Gusbing would give his books, If a suitable place codd be

Page  436maintained, ma made to serve the interests of the school ala0 ia its general worklng library. Solved both problems, I like the way $00, ay solving both problems, rather than a mortuary P mataphor--killing two birds with one stone0 I I was thinkins: of the Dean'a Report. They*re pretty bleak in the early days about the condition of the library. desigs just lent ibelf to accesaibili~y, whereas that other site was on Daven- port Avenue, am3 it would have been Q wholly different placeo " 'herds no question about the need, The fn addltion in that library building it was peasible te we an upper story fer the headquarter8 of Fund whlch you*ll notice later on, That's a 8ubssquent developaent. For which they paid Yale Q aim little renta I think it*@ also true, isn't It. that the - Childs Fund itself found an absence of materials, books, referewes relevant to the cancer field and established a fund whereby books were purchared and stsred in this library, still under the,.,. We had a plate for the Childs Fuadcevnership, and we b 6% lotstrf boob on cancer and subscribed to 30W~~118 slowly because, a8 worll pefnt out later, this 1937 perid wab hewn us "cancer the great ctarrj.amo It was a pitifully inadequately supported field of research. people have continuity here alsdeorge y1. Smith. He not only ha8 it uih the Ubrary, but later 811 In the- Chila Fund. Hecr qd%e 8 fellowg I don't know that there is anything that purd core to say about there people aa people- I

Page  437437 1)' I\ suite apart from their interest in books which mij33t help to illumnate this libraw. Well, Dr* Cushiug wa a productive scholar. He was an eloquent speaker, cogent, aud a writer of grace and facility on many subjmts, notably his bio- graphy f Sir william Osler and his writing ~n Vesalitwo He was always inter- eetsd in books before this library, as I said before, and carried that forward into ite Dr. Fulton was Prafasser of Physiology and had come to Yale frcpa Haward, a very vigorous and wide ranging laan, could do host anything, a great, energetic, facile persob He had collected pretty early all the 18th Century scientific work in England,, Rebert E$pjle was one of his specialties, oue of his special interests. Harvey on the circulation of the blood earlier than Boyle was one of Fultonts speuial interests, and he had-I don't know how maw thousands of books. He housed them in his Department Ef Ph~3.010~. Dro Fulton attracted a great maw students, graduat students and young members on his fa cult^, His mdn field of interest in physiology was primate physiology, the ervou8 system ofthe higher a and also dogs, He brought up a line of iuvestigators who have been eunimat men in that field in the countryo he Fulton ugs able to go abroad for studies and social meetings, and scientific meetings about every year, 80 he personally knew everyone from Sir William %ler to Charles Scett Sherrington and all the great neurophysiologiste of the time. He brought all this back to Yale In a stimulating manner. i 4 i\ I ! I ; r( K Dre F`tilton wrote irrceaaantly-at least he dictated because as Itold you, he had a dictaphone in his office, In his automobile, in his bedroom, and in his study in his house, and he MI carrying around these records to his secretaries all the tineo He had a great sense of fellowship with the people in his departawnto They were devoted to hir, and he and Hss, FPlton issued yearly

Page  438438 not an encyclical, but something of that type, printed and telling what had happened in the laboratory during that year and givine; peraroaal news about members of the staff who had been there, or were there. I didn't know Dr. nebs very well-I wouldntt say that I knew him at all. I met him, but he was over in Switzerland. the value of his books. I knew that Dr. Fulton and Dr. Cushing had to be very persuasive to get Dr. nebs to join in with the plan, but they did, and that's the reason for this three leaf clover on the front of that pamphlet. Thatts their mottoe It la a three leaf clover. I knew of his reputation, and I knew Dr. Edward Streeter waa a friend of Dr. Cushingtu aore than he was of Fulton's, or mine, and he lived in Stonington, Connecticut where w aw hin occasiotdly. thea whsraver he found than all mer the worldo He was Q we1l-trw.k man, could travel, and he had the greatest collection of weights and meamres going back to Phrfcian times arid all the way througho the library, provided they would be properly housed, and they are howred there and were right away in two adequate roanso I met Dr. Streeter at his house a few times uhenwe went to talk: abut these thirnga, but I can't say I knew hia at all w ello + For years he had been collecting weights and neasures, buying They persuaded hiB te give them to A George H. Smith had been very influential at Yale in the field of cancer research. Heuaa the nedical director of what was knm as the Am Fuller Fund, a fund given by Hr. Fuller, a burrinearnan in Hew Haven which was the first en- derrtrent far cancer resernrah--weU, it wa6ntt an endowment for cancer research at Yale. Itwas the first collaborating, or cooperating foundation that gave prior consideration to Yale18 needs. but it gave most of them to Yale. It could make it6 grants anyw?iere it wanted, It didn't amount to a great sum# but it was

Page  439439 a areed, and it waaa a seed that put out plants that attracted We Childs when he came up to 8sw Haven on a Viplit just before he made his great foundation. Dr. Smith was housed in the Departsent of Anatanyo He was a great friend of Dr, Edgar Allen who was Professer of Anatmy, and his epecial interest in 8x1 perimental work were fish-particu)arly pigmentad fish-fish with big black spots because theydeveloped melanotic tumors, and hi8 collection of books was largely inIcthyologJr, He was a mysterious "sa, kept his om coumel pretty cloaely, and one waa never qdte sure what he wu thinking, or what he was going to do after he said ssllrething, You liked him, but he aroused caution. could say more about Dr. George Smith, but I don% think itll do that* s 4 'n 2 I HeUl come in again la the Childs Furd where his experience was tapped, his knowledge on a consultant basis. I tbinb he was ultimately made a member of the advisory board, so his knowledge warr made semicable. Turn It off for a ninute, and 1111 tell you something+ This ia terribleo .II TThe recorder was turned off-7 There*s 0ne other person who ha8 80 special connection with medicine, but whowas quite imtramental a8 a member of the Yale Corporatiom. His interjists were in literature, particularly the Horace Walpole collection, but as a persono *1 This is Wilmrth Lewis. WilnaPrth Lewis was the class of 1918 at Yale and has been devoted to Yale ever einae hewas an undergraduate. He went over in the Artillery in World War Ia came back and was soon eleoted as one of the self-perpetuating membmrs of the YabCorporatiokb By that time he had alteady begun to be a book collector in his own rightg He had wried ABurr Auchincloss, and both the Auchincloss family and the Lewis family had considerable fortunes. She had the larger for-

Page  440tune, and she was intereated in building up the book collection of his. EIis interests turned to Horace Walpole, and he becane a great authority on Horace Walpoleo 4 His efforts to publish and annotate the letters of Horace Walpola, turned in to an enterprise tomconstruct the 18th Century. He had pbanned forty volumes in his series. That vfll give you an idea of the scopen He soon became interested in all the collections at Yale-archeological esllectionar, the art museum, the school @f music, and most ef all th entral University Library, the Peabody collections of animals and arttfacts of all kinds, $F I don't remember how I got to know Nr+ Lewis, except it must have been through Dro Cushiag because theywere great frlenda, from the be@8ninge I think the first letter is an acknouledgeatent and generous thanks for being able to stop off at your house at TrmbulJ, College. Yes, he had some engagement withMr. Attsrbury, Dr. Cuehil~g nd others, That's the first instancee H-is own book-1 think he published a little book :alldm Collect or t s Progress I have a copy of that, It's a wltty, subtle thing59 He's a most attractive mag full. of interest, literary interest, historical interest, and interest in peeple, but he waa the patter behind this library move. - He supported Dr. Cushing, Dr, Fulton, and had a close relation with the Treasurer of the Yab University, Mro Farnam-cwld influence hima I don't remember uhat his relation to Dro Winternits was,, Dra Winternitz was, of coursea

Page  441in the background of a great deal of this-didn't oppose it, but didn*t appear too nuch on the promotional side. Mr. Wilmarth Lewis has done wenderful things during this period as a Corporation amber, which eaded two years ago, for the buivng up of the central library, the appointment of the librarian and staff. About this time, an example of what he could do-there was a change in \ I the librarian at Yaleo Mr. Andrew Keogh, the chief librarian, reached the retireaient age. He was a thoroughly trained guild librarian, and he wanted to have the next librarian cbesen frm among the guild trained librariam, some of whom, to tell you the truth, seemed to me to be more luterested in whether a catalogue card should be three by five, or two and three quarters by SIX, or solssthlng like that+ They spend enomow amounts of time on card8 for catalogues. That ran through the kiui of thing that people thought Hr. Xeogh was mainly interested in. On the other hand, Nr. Keogh took that library through a very important stageo Frola the time that it was moved fros the Yale campus to the superb new buildingO it had cone from to great, but W. Lewis in the Coproration, ad elsewhere, shoved even at that early date what he could bring about0 He was largely reapoasible for the appointment of Hr. Bernhard Knollenberg as the librariano #re Knolleaberg was a lawyer and a financier in Wall Street, but he was also a 8cholaro Ne published a book on George Washington and other things* His wife ua8 a soulptor. Knollenberg waa an interesting and vigorouts librarian butthe particularly intoresting thing waa that Hr. Lewis WII abse to break a tradition of rested interest In the appointglent in the / d guild and bring in somebody thatwasn't trained as a librarian at allo I had the pleasure of meetinej~ust om6 out at his home in Farmington, a warm person who made you rea- at home-no fuss, but then the detail into which Be could PO in terms of indexiPg-it waa like an ducation far me.

Page  442442 Oh ps. Out at Famington, he bought an old house, an early 17th Century hotme, I think, and then built OR to it additiom to house the Walpole Collection. The house is filled with Walpobana, portraits, objects from the Walpole "Strawberry Hill" laansisn, if you call it that* He set out, among other things, te get al he boob that had been owned by Walpole in his library, and he got ntost ef them, He had the shelf li8t Prom Horace Walpole, and the books are all in the plaee8 where they were in "Strawberry Hillne He has a most enormous collection of pdltical cartoom and prints of 18th Century England which be= came the field ef work for Hrs. Wilmarth Lewis. She becaaret a great expert and oatalsguer of these thousand8 of printa. She was a verylovable person$ quiet, unaasumiag, and yet absolatelg- constant in her support of their joint enterprise in the Walpole Library. and I have been up tosee him at hi8 house in Hewport year after year for a good many yearr. We stay a week. we*w gome perhaE as far as we ought to today, The next subject jt A I got to haw Mr. Leuia fairly well. Hrs. Bayne-Jones tdlike to bringup is the Chilb -3 and tbsrtrs going to take us a little A ._ - -8 time

Page  443Many of the tNws we've been talking about the last three or four sessions all happened at the same time. We*ve been focusis really on the deawhi- variety of experience a man can have as Dean. Some srf the things are indicated long before you ever becowe Dean--%hey ham a past, a dloplent and you fall heir to samething in motiono Another part of the task is dearling with somethinq that comes in wholly unannounced, a your deanship, burgeoned into a mans of support for research, not alone at iV ecidental thing, which diring the time of Yale, but beyond Pals. This Os novel in terms of its time, You had had previous experience, - I think, on the National Researc You had some contact through Hans Zimser wit!! tha Leonard Wood Lep- Foandation and its pr@b)ma of getting a foothold in the - official way, but through Hans Zlnsaer o o o o suncil in the support of research, Id, not in any direct, I waa a member of the boa de Fruu the atax%, my connection With the 4 Leonard Wood Measrial waa 88 dc member of the Central Advisory Mediual Board. I guess you wmr-Fn thinking - of corresperdenue with Mans Zinsaer where you urate that you had besn - asked to dt with them, - There wasn't then auy indication that it was a formal relatipaship, bat sigbecauee you were in Washington. In thoae photographs there are dosens of photographs of the bsard-Zinsser, Frederick Gay, a lot of people* I mention it to indicate that you'd had experience-what to do with (L problem. Yes, what te dO with grants-in-aid. %e same in Rochester-we had a fluid research fund at ROOh98ter, and we had pantxi fran other places.

Page  444444 C r\ The whole developaent of the Mademy of Tropical %dicine had grants-in-aid in vlew aa a poasibilitg_C Well, heretlrme1.1, I don% knew how you sot; into this, except that the correspondence sham It cmes via Dra Sam Harvey. ArYytkirq YOU can remember by way of background, certainly the negotiatioss which lsd to the fond. gift to Yale ef the Child8 Fund and the establlsbent of the Childs Fund Will be helpful because it is rather novel, given 1937* I think it vas Pasteur who 8dd that phenomena occar and mean nbthing to daae people, but in time mean a great deal to the prepared mind, and I think that c-ent would apply also to the prepared institution. tereat in cancer had been nourished For a lmg time at Yale. well, it goes back a long time, to tell you the truth, to the missionary work in Canton, Chinao 180, a great series of oil paintings of tnaabrr and cancer in the Chinese people in canto- They werewehibitmi around there keeping up a Yale interest in the natural history of cancer. of the Am Fuller Fwd which must have begun in the 1920%. of the Anna F'uller Fund here, but I know that Hr. Fuller, a buslmssman in New Hag got interested ire cancer probably, as so often happens, becanrae c the death of some nenber of his fa- frm the direarc, and through his association with George M. Smithp He founded a find for the aupport of cancer researah which gavo most of its roney.tc; Yale, aough it didn't need to confine It to New Haven and Yale, basis for what had been existing for perhaps five years at least before 19371 namely, the Atypical OrQwth Study Unit which is a name Dr. Winternits gave to this greup of scientists andmedical people interested in ne plastic disease. It uae propheticr that he called it "atypical growth", focusing OB the problem In this cam, in. It goee back- Peter Parker lrmt to the Yale Pathological Dhtpartwent about Then in later times at Yale there was the influence I haven't a history 1 It could and did give fund8 elbewhere,, That was the E;

Page  445445 ef growth because the fundamental problem in cancer, as all recognize, is 81 problem of the mystery of growth, and fortunately, if you have the conception that It is a mystery of growth that you're, studying, you can be very broad In your activity because there is hardly a Melogical, chemical, or physiological process that is not seacbwhere invalved in the preblem of growth, and that allowed the canaer iaveatigators to roam very widely over the field ef all the elements that had to do with growth. Those things exirted at Yale soaetim before this accldmtal thing we're going to talk about new happened, Yes, Dr, Samuel Harvey was interested in greuth. There were tumor clinic8 in the hospital6 elrewhere. Of course, in bu Pork Dr, dames Eking who tobe the great man in cancer work at the #emrial Hospital and at Columbia and re- lated hospitals there, UPS nuch interested in cancer researche There was a good journal published in this country for a number of pars 019 ea 8r which failed about this time, but what eamer field was an erccideutal happening arksing from sources which I still do not fully coraprehend, Professor of Surgeq, sent se a copy of a letter that he had recsivad from + qpened that brought re into connection with the % One day in 1937, early in 1937, Dre Samuel Harvey3 the we me Yes, John Dye, a physiclan in Waterbury, Connectfcut, in which Dr. Dye told Dr, Harvey that he knew of a wealthy man in New York who had shown sme interest insetting up an emiowneut for cancer research, or a foundation for ca cer re- search, but had not yet cleared his mind whether it would be for cancer, or sane- rl Ip

Page  446thing else, and had not made aw comitnt to any other institution and probably had not given much thought to settling this foundation at Yale. Well, Dr. Ha* with his usual wisdm, his ift of thought and expression, wrote me a long letter analyzing the advantages and sme disadvantages in having such a fglurdation which he thought might caw to Yale, and if so, should be part of the medical school, His Idea wm that this would not be a separate foundation, but something like a department in the medical school with its own funds, 1. This put ne in touch with Dr. Dye. We arranged to meet, and he in ited ne to accompany him to New York tosee this mysterious person whose name was given to RL~ only on the train going down frcm New Havem to New Yerk au nly given to ae la a vague way, . Chi1d.u. His first name waan' t given, 80 1 thought that he meant Xr. Eversley Wlds who had pat up a good deal of money for the work en leprosy that the Leonard Wood moria1 Fund had wed a started a long the connection. Last year on the Philippim Island of Ceba the Memerial dedicated a brand new laboratory known as the Eversley Childs Laboratory. Dr Dye didnft tall me anythlng about the collegiate connections of this i + Wood gentleman that he was taking Rae to 886, nor did he tell me that he was deaf- qutte deaf. We got off at Grand central Station, went up 'ark Avenue to an apartment how., and we were acisritted to a duplex apartment an the fourth, or kfth floor sf a fine building theres kIro Child8 came In, greeted me in a friendly way, and we rat down In an alcove Vindrrr verlooking: Park Avenue. !re Child8 then told lpe abut hi8 plans and his connection8 and early, fortunate- ly-it could cam out pos8ib;ly in a-r to questiotm--that he waa a Yale man man In the class of 1891, and a great friend Of Dr* Havey Cushing, That made me feel at home right away because, 1892, was my Uncle Hugh Baynegs class at Yale, and I knew people in 1891, and I was an adtsirer and fortunately admitted to the friendship of Drg Cushlw, so we got off on a good starto 4

Page  447447 It soon developed that Hr. Child8 was serioualy thinking about starting a foundation. He didn't tell me how much money he was going to put into it, but he did indicate that he was interested in having a foundation on which his three sons could 16178 os trustees, Richard Childa, Edward Chila, and Winston Ghilda, possibly as a notivated3.y idealistic thing for hem to be doinga They had very different irrteresta at that tiraar. Winston Childe w.t a plungiag financier on Wall *est with verg original idea-fmr example$ of cornering all the dogfish and getting the vitamln=cmtaining liver oil rigkts out of their livers. That went on for sme time, but his enterpriarer were not too suecessfU1. I think at one time he waa a big omr of Newsweek. Richard Chi1 was amore intellectual, visionary type!, net 60 much in bU8iDQ68, aeugh I think he did have a publishing company which didn't turn out too well, but he wats en the side of liberalism and had differerrt opinions ssmetlmes from hi8 more conservative father and his other two brothem. bachelor whereas these other two brothers were married, and Edward# main in- tereait wa8 In the Yale Forestry School. of land over the beautiful hills of Norfolk$ Conneetiat, where they had what some oalled "a summer haaw%-ft really ms an all-round patriarchical mansion with stables, horses, hnd, lakes, canoes, and was very lose, next door, to Mr. Childst clasmto, Senator Frederick C. WalcotC* h 4 dt 4 Edward Childs, a big handaoare mano was a The Childs family had a great tract t ? 811 of this io/$ or lees Game out at the talk, but I'lls adding to it from things that happened later OR just to put them together hem. this talk that Mr, Child8 u.8 primarily intewsted at the moment in setting mp a foundation for the st;udy of probleas d politmyelitis at the Rockefeller ~nstltute because his son Winston had had an attack of polie and had a little reddual paralysis. seem neaeasary. It turned out in I didn*t argue nuch against the Institute. It didn't I didnrt believe that the Institute would be interested in

Page  448doing the kind of tung that,, Childs wanted to do becarwe at that the they mre rigidly defending their indepeadence and would not acoepli grants from out- side. Maybe they thought that would keep Mr. Roekefellerc8 munificence mere in their own control, il?ore in their own interest and not allow t to be diverted k ompariroon with gift8 frm the outside. I did tell Hr+ Childa the wonderful work that w8s being done at New Haven by this Atypical Growth Study Unit o reprersentatl e of t,he work going on chiefly in the Departments sf Anatemy and Pathology. i The Professor of Anatamy, Edgar Allen, WB. greatly IrPterested in the estrogens and the female sex hormones, and he had with him Dr. Williaap ti, Gardmr wh0 urn alae a brilliant worker in the field ef hormones and the prodrzctiolz of rnoplastic growth* Qardner ha8 succeeeded Allen. Also in that department there wa8 Strsng-*'re forgotten Strsag*r first name for the moment-but Strong w8a a great geneticist. Is this L. C, SLtroq? Leone11 C. Strowg. He wa8 a geneticist, had been breeding mice for years and year8 and parrs. so Strong worked with him toe, and he was able to bring up certain strains of mice that would have mammary cancer in a certain percentage rad were very valuable lraterial; ai9 a matter of fact, es good waterid 88 Wa8 bginning to caw oat frat C. C, Little'r genetic station at Bar Barbera bine. Well, fortunately Hr,, Child8 did cope to New Havea. member that day- his son Edward, and ha went all through the Department of He was aocaoapaded-I re- Anatomy and into the Departaent dlf Patholegy where Dr. W.nterrdtzi had sane in* terasting things to rtuuw-twlors from human autopders, and various things. We introduced them to workera in the inmediate field and from the periphery of the field like the biochearirte, and others Wazo uere interested in caneer research, net to Dra Harvey, As I reoall it, we didnat go very far into the clinical side

Page  449of cancer because it was determined that Mr. Childs was intereste researuh rather than setting up amhing for the care of cancer patie ts. the start a principle which came into OUT co)fversation was that if he did set up auything in cancer for research, it would not exclude certaia clinical studies, provided these clinical studies offered some opportunity to understand better the etiollsgy of the disease. n bade dp, From N 4 Mr. Childs appreciated what he saw very quickly. He was very much impressed and talked wlth intelligetlce about cancer as being a group of diseases, not jnst me thing, Cancer is not 01#) thing. It may be hundreds of things, but he also wa8 interested in two other phares-fme main phatlo that comes out in his speeeh of dedication of the foundPtion later, that sorewhero behind the door, or stairway there was a Banting who would diecover for -mer what Banting and Best feund ia insulin for diabetes. He had that anqnwmwts hope-I suppose a gaod QM American pioneering outlook that smebody, a gerdus is hiding, or lost semewhere, and all he need8 ia a little help to get out and do some world asternding thing, The other tMag that interested me in this highly intelligent man at the start was that he showsd that he'd had 8-e contasts with people who were quacks in cancer. He not only t ught that solnebody would discover the ause of cancer, or stme canoer certainly with a little hlp, but also he was beginning te be pesteredmore and more) by letters fron quacks, crercb and cranks wh~ were trying to get him to do all sorts of curious things for the support of their work. I don't know aqp field in which there are nom wild notiom of cure. WQ bad to deal with such problem as a Swiss Institute that cured cancer by mistletoe extract. it's net so foolish a8 it seatme In medicine there is a great doctrine of 4 e t 2 It was that kind of thing, although when YQU look into it,

Page  450450 "signatureswo as they call them-things that look ike seerething and are good for stmething, like hepatica is good for the liver, and there are mandrae8 that are good for male dls~rder8 because they've got two leg8 in the root, There is a great aancer institute In SUtserlad that made all its extracb from mistletoe, and that does aaund very foolish. but it's a very old notien. Mistletoe is a parasite-and it suddenly grows on a fereign tree just like a cancer grous, a foreign growth, on a human being, 4 It didnVi havt aay good effect on cancer, Ira child8 W.8 already bsthered b;v SmO Of those thit3gSm 1 $hi they $0 kia became he was well-todo, public-spirited man, and people, even before hQ had a cancer Institute in his mind, were beseeching him for giftsla ?) I think you aught to go Into his background in Morfolk-..hie tie with Senatsr Walco and wlth Dr. Web ha Mr, Childa cblllos from an old family out in the Pittsburgh region and after he went to Yale and graduated in 1891, he developed even more hie Connecut erigins, and I tMnk they reach bock rather far in some lines. as I have said, Is this beautiful old house on the hillside, on the lake in Norfolk, Conne%t.\ btsrfolk, Connecticu% wm famous long age rn the birthplace of Dro Willian Henry Weleh who was born ia 1850. Dr. Welch's father was a great pbsioian in the region. The Dactors Wekh ef Norfolktte The Childs family knew Dr. Welch and admired him. and they knew his tradition. Ssnater Walcott knew Dr. Welch and supported Hr, Childa in his loyalty, 8s he alww did when Mr. ChW wished to do s0mthing as fine a8 he had visienad this earner research foundation-when it got in hi8 mind that it would be canceru The family place, ' f\ Dr, Cushing has written a very moving paper called Hr. ChUds-mest of the money, I think, which Mr. Childs intended to put into this foundation came frm the estate of his wife, Jane Coffin Childs. She

Page  451451 ma a Coffin, and she had come from the Coffin Fa~cLly who had made its ~sney in General Electric. and wo#ierful person. her sister was still living, Miss Alice S. Coffin, a friendly, but very shy lady, living on one of the floors in this duplex apartment, or part of a floor, and She had died of cancer. She must have been a most chdng I never met her. She was dead before I met them, but she a180 became a contributor to the Yde Medical Library Fund-what I told about last timeo There% a Ceffin hnd there for the support of the library- salaries and books, Miss Ceffin died a few years ago after having led a very I secluded sort of life for all her yeam, As I say, she wo8 very shy, but very nice and friendly. I think Hro Childs u18 interested ia what he saw goin on in these laboraa CJ tories quite arb much as he was by the sentimental attacbment that he felt toward the Rockebllar Imtitute where work was being dono. He and Mward both appreciated that theywere talking to earnest men who intelligently were woliring very hard at difficult probkss. Alsa thiswas a aritical time in the exmination of support for cancer re- rearch. There wem in this country two foundations-the Anna Fuller Fund which was -11, very small, and the International Cancer Research Foundation established by Mr. William Ha Donner in Philadelphia under the guidance of DF. Mildred W, Se Shram, who was a very able woIPan and director of their affairse They had an advisory board, and the foundation made grants all over the worM o C I\ They were in the field ahead of the Childs Fund, but not with the same breadth of concept, nor the same generous outlook toward the investigators and the work, though theywere doing very good work, At his time Fortune magazine published a great article on "cancer the great darkness", and cancer was a great k darkness. Itwas a mystery. Nobody knew, and th don% know yet what actually

Page  452452 brings cancer about, what keeps it going, how it kills people and what to de to cure it-: wean really substantial cures. adiation are still the best means of treating cancer, although they have hundreds of drugs nowI sme of which are beneficial and palliative. Surgery an + I will nuw talk briefly about what happened after Mr, Childs wde this first visit which I think was in 'anuary* 19370 January 28, 19370 Things moved veryewiftly after thate Mr. Childs made up his mind quite soon that he wantad the foundatioa to be in cancer research, wanted it to be called the Jam Ceffin Childa Memorial Fund for Medical Research-broadly termed, but he expressed its main interest in cancer, as you'll see frm his dedication. Ha, had plans for a Board of Scientific Advisers and plans for a management board composed largely of people that he knew very well, mostly members of his faroily and close asiociate8. mentioned, Mr. Walcott, and Mr. Christie P. Hamilton, do had dealt with the General EZectric accounts and management for a long tinae, Mr. Albert H. Barclay was the legal counsel and also a member of this Ward of Managers. %. Barclay was a classmate of Mr. Childs in 1891. Then h. ail wanted on his board at least two representatives from Yalee President, and George Paxdy Day, the Treasurerr, All that wwed very fasto think Mr. Childs was =sed te formulating broad conceptions and administrative management witbent any loss of tbe and without any real uncertainties. We soon began to talk about @e detailsr Ha would come-I think he caw to my house in "rumbull allege over and over again for long afternoon talks, and he stayed there over night some timesg There were Wr. Childs, the three som that I They would b. ex-afficiocElr, Seymour, the I 1

Page  453453 0 e of the first things that had to be settled after he had decided that he i wanted his foundatlsn to be located at Yale waa en the side of personnel, the uestlon of a director of the scientific activities of the foundation. At the 'E. start, it seemed that the man who would be chosen would be Dr. Winterrdto. There waa a great deal of inquiry and ssulsearching talk about the question of a director. W88 be the director of the Board of Scientific Advisers and if I could do it, m I thought I would have to, in addition to being the Dean of the hdical School. That would have the advantage of keeping the fund in very close contact with the medic school. I had already agreedR c+r about this time agreed with Mr. Childs that the Foundation would be 8et up alnost with autonaay f its own. ts be at Yale, but not under the control of Yale, a very eztraordinsry arrange- ment. The securities were set aside and held la a bank in New Pork under Mr. Hamilton, Hr. Childs, and the Board of Managers. Yale, however, wae called the ncuPstediann, and Yale handled the checks. Money passed through Yale, but Yale had no rights to say anything about the sale, or purchase f the securities. Yale agreed to that, in the place before, has made a number of efforts to get control of this fund as prrt of the University and under the control of the administration of the University. The Childe Fund, as is said n Childsf dedication, is not to be exclusively used at Yale, but Mr. Childs expremsed the hope that the Board 0f Scientific Advisers would find at Yale opportunities to use mest of the m@noy,, IenIt that about the way it's said? I had RQ real part in what went OR privately on much of that. I 1, d azy opinion. It ewe out very soon uhen Mr. Child8 asked me if I would It was b 0 4 I don't think the Yale Corporatien had anything like it It's still working that way nq although the University at Yes. -

Page  454I aventt read that document in quite a while, You can imagine what a long series 0f CkLfficulties had to be faced after k these general principles were agreed upen, Charter of the foundatisn and of the bylause All of the gwerning regulations are in these documents, and they were worked mer and over again, If you look at then, youfllsse hundreds of changes frm time to tbe. work for Mr. Barclay who had a big legal practice and had such else to do, but Mr. Child8 had a way of pressing busim88 associates so that they did what he had in mind aa biug desirablar. He did aot use the 8-e methods In any sense with the rcientific adviserso He admitted into the bylaw8 a statement that the Board mf Hanagerer would never make a grant for research in the field of the foundatien, urileaa the BoaFd of Scientific Advisers reao=nded it firs$* I had dome irwrtr mentality in getting that into the bylawe as a regulation. I had tm arigyer may of the wild letters which h. Childa wa8 receiving fraa people that had all them queer, crack notioas about cancer and ts cure. the neuspaprr publicity that emanated, I think, from the Yale offices was very unfortunate at tne first. papers that the Child8 Fund would be twenty million dollarso like that. great deal eince, but all the world was informed that hers were twenty million dollars going into cancer research and that would be receptive to any ideas as to how the money might be used* That had to be dispelled by practice rather than wards-I don't think arybody ever put eut any definite contradiction of the original publicity, but it wa8 soon apparent that the Fund sn't operating at twenty alien dollars a par. I saved all the drafts of the It was very severe i In addition 1 It ,says in the early accounts that came out in the It was nothing It- severcalmillIan dollars, and its principle has gone up a k "he Fund also herd an interesting financial angle at the First which the directar wa8 able ts tarn, although 80- of the businessmen on the board were

Page  455455 very hard to convince that it was the wise and praper thing to be The first budget I brought in af'terlkhe Raeetings of the Board of Scientific Advisers covered a period of about three to fiv@ yeam. We realiaed that cancer research was a long, time-consuming procease Most sf the problem undertaken in cancer research are heart breaking, 'hey turn out to be no useful results at all, or a negative result* although many a man ha8 stapd at It, You coddntt get projects under way, or a man has broken his heart working on cancer research, geod people devoting tharrselvers to work in the field, unZe8s they had some prdsa, of support for at least three to five year@* WeU, when that prmasas starbd, I brought In a budget oovering from three to five years, and the total budget for that pniod wa8 about three to five times the total annul Income of the Fund. Of coarse, it cmld are11 8eeurlt%Pldl. Sw you Irake a grant of tu0 thouaand These men didnrt want to cuamit noney it didntt ham. as current itaceme, dollars fer one year. cMllgiitment for ten thousand dellars, and you*ve snly got the current income If you make that graut for five years, you've got a that would met flve, had beta used to foundatfons that had money in the bar already, I hadntt expettad that kind of a problem to ariseo I The first we went eff on this venture,we pledged more aaney than the income would stipport, although we knew that the Beard of knagers could sell securities, if they had to. I , I think there waa a provision which allowed the aa?ers ta sell part of the L -0, if med ~ That's what I mean by selling securlties~s, a previ$ion empmered the, managers to do It. Also there was a wise provision in the, bylma, that if in the opinion of the Board of Scientific Adrisere approved by the Board of Managers

Page  456it appeared that there wall nothing furthr to be learned, er gained by eancer rosearch, the mney could be devoted to research on any ether problem in the whole field of medicine without disturbing; the organic relationship with Yaleo They never mentioned the Fund being lraved @ut ei Yale, They never nentioned the Fund being mopd out of Yale, but tho Fund could be shifted from cancer to sme ether work. J The ether thing that influenced the judgment of the Board @f aanagers wm that they didnft want to put Fund money in bricks and nortar which is 8 horrible conception to my dad because you've got to have a building in which to work, There was nuch effort at Pala to get a canoer institute built, ad the mnagors were all afraid that tho money would go into a buildiug and leave nothing to continue with the rosearch* The only building that the fund ever built was a mouso house fo Leone11 Strong. We built about a fifteen thousand dellar muse heuse which is still there, using;, economicallJr, part of a brick wall that had been set up to see what the new wall of the library still. standing so we built the ROUS~ house around that. t t uld look like. It was P Wasart the in%@ntion sf_ tb draftersthat includes yourself* Day, Mr. Barclay, and . Childs-to write an enabling act with the least restrictions the process-that is, the Board of Managers couldn't make a grant without it beiw initiated, or sanctioned by the Board of Scientific Advisers built into the procoss once the Fund was establishedo It could he initiated anywhere, but it had ts cone through the Board ef Scientific Adviaam. So far a8 the Board of hacuauers was concerned, they had no separate pwer tm

Page  4571 initiate their own ideaso They had to care through the Board of Scientific Advisers. Maybe gettiag into rearantics nous but any manager could say,"I think this is a geod field to go iri%aw and then ue would work en it looked like. MI4 Childs seemas to have boea a very f ruitfbl man With ideas, Onat of the early notions he had-I think there mre at least three. foundation by itselfo Then there w~ls a mbibqrk%t of/imest$.atsrs where thg could ge sphere. was an independent 0 I 'hen there was the endowment to sme specific .institution t He did. pr obab4 been supporter and He worked hard en ita and evidently before I aset hir, he had a year or two thinking it over and talking to peopleo His main adviaex was h!h son, Edward, I think in the files there i and under this lrstr-he had talked to Dre Rufus Colaat the Rockefeller Iostituta -was a university medical school with an attached hospital. 9arently he had these pretty well thought out as pcssibilities. \ little sheet Cg paper where Eduard draws up the institute for p@Uc 5nvesf.i- gation. Md you find it? Yeao As a matter ef fact, p?lio as an intererst, doesn't drop out 0f these serie8 sf draft8 until June 1, 3.937. Refcrenca to polio is finally omitted. I thipk this 58 because they agreed to the broadest shift in eaaphasis in the event that amthing happen6 in cancer and it a no longer a problege, The Board of Managers is empowered ta change the sights to sow ether problem. Htac was Mre Child8 to negotiate with? interes te 1 0 He Bust have been pretky easy becaurse he had such

Page  458Hr, Childa was a very forthright man, and the only difficulty negotiating with him uas that he wa8 quite deaf. You had to speak pretty loudly, and 8-e- times you'd have to say it over and aver again. feet two, broad featurss,asily wpi3Ling, friendly, net noisy, but 8 warm person. Warn the tipzG I began to be a director of this fourndatien, I began ta be almost a rwiber of his famlly, and so did Mrs, Baynedoneso Mr8. DaynoJones and Mr. Childa formed a lasting frlendship, We still see the metlbers-$ust a few weeks ago his daughter Barbara was down here with her husband, and it was Richard, largely, who did quite a little in having my portrait painted for the Dean's col.lection, painted for the medical cschool a few years ago. He was a big man, about six In a letter that he urites quite early on arch h, 1937, Mro Childs is thinking of gou as the chairman. some prcblean, sane confusion in its name- chairman, or director, whatever it was, but apparently,..o I thisk it*s ohaiman mf the beard, I dm't like the word "director". I doatt like to censider Plyself directing people. L*d rather be their ~ervant, This is quite early, but you indicated in cmtments you made that in view of the proposed develomeat at Yale, in the light of his visit, and the intarost and backgreumd already existfag at vale, it W~B easier to have the Dean's Office represented because that was where the vrrieurs parts of the medical 80hQOl met, but then lire Chi'kg chose you as a person, quite apart frm being Dean. That must ha been very fortunate became I anver acted in relatien to the In fact, 1 would tend 4 Childs family 88 if I y.8 representing the ants Office, to oppose thi that would seem to come like pressure frm the University, or the Dean's Offict. %a Deen's Office in the medical school. procured for the i

Page  459459 Childs Fund twe sisable roo338 abwe the library which thoy still ase a8 aQ mffice, The Childa Fund fixed it up, decorated it, and they held their meting8 up theree I used other row in the Sterling Hall of Medicine, a gondsrful big reception room where they would have lunches and social meetl~gs. lhJ %e Dean could probably get this place Bere easily than an eut$@der 3 could have gotten it, but such things as that were in the erdinary protocol of the day. As Dean you'd do it for other organisations tooo The Childs Fund paid Yale rent for that room# the office, and still beso Yeu wed-I sq "you wed" but you had acuesa to Edgar Allen. 1 think you sent a draft propesal mer te hir for his caPmentr once. We weren't limited to where we could Adrisers would roceivo frm the chalmo of the board in advance of a meeting dockets which gave the whole of the applicationo the referencea, letters of in- quiry-I could write to anybody who knew anything about the kind of question that came to us. When thoae things wonld come in, we'd have long discussions at our meetiugs, make up our r8wmiendations, or else put it over to anethar meeting to work out something ss, but there wag ne lilgitatiea on what con- ,aultation you could seek. fer advice* The Board of Scieatific 8" Thirswas eve8 before the Fund wm established, when the proasso of negotiatiea was on* I as net put mer any bind of swrecy in the prelbinary negotiations. 6. I dm*t think I talked very much about it. He. but Dr, Harvey was close to pa, and he had views and expremmd them well, was There was sonsthing of a blanket so far as the outside word was concerned,

Page  460thinking in tens of Yale as the boginning and end for this Fund. I don't know what Dr. Allen'a views were, but he had already - in beingkhe Department of :d 4 Anatcay these various studicbs that were engoing, BIB he would be a logical. s~urce to consult with too. Yes, and another source, and I know I ust have talked to him, was t Dr, Francis Blab who was equal to smn Harvey in wisdom and experience in the school. He wasn't interested in cancer much. There was little going o n the cancer field in the medical department* Surgery (~aw a lot. Obstetrics saw a + good deal with the gynecological cases1. The Department of Urology under Dr. Clyde L. Dsaaing saw plenty of prostate cancer and other things. These were the chief @ms with pathology. Hsw much of a did Seymour play in this-he's hardly mentioned at all. WtEn did Seymour becam president? Let me look at Yale Catdlsgue there o Wr. Angell was still Presideat-Mr. Angell mad@ this announcement because it was For the acadeldc par 19374938, and that academic year Is July 1st to Jum 30, so we arerlap parts of two calendar yeari. Mr. Angell would have been Resident the first part sf 1937. Mro Seymour comes in after July. This was ready for announcement at the meeting of the Corporation on June 19, 1937, and Mr. Angell made the announcement. I don't know that you talked much with him about this. George Dq. Oh yes, G.srge Day and I saw a great deal of each other-thi8 wa8 right in

Page  461461 A Georgets field because he was a great fund raiser far the Y le University Press and all sorts of things. 7 He was very much interested in the successful pursuit of this. I think Hr. George Day really thought that h3.e University weuld centrol this fund and the reeourcea; ia fact, I have evidence that he did, The aearch for rcientific advisers gets somewhat invo\ved-a survey sf paapple on the scene- Aw aunb.r of name8 are mentioned4arren Lawis, James king, Franeis 'arter Wood, Burten TI Simpsen, James B. Murphy. 'here's a perid when you go to Atlantic City for a meetir?g, fer exasp les and part of the meeting is represented ?q hpdalritten notes. At meetings you can talk with people as to who v would be fruitful, and the names that finally cme out of this are a good group of people. It isn't long before that original list is extended, increased. Ross G. Harrison is oneo was on fraa the start-right en thr ++ He'd had 8 long continuity in this picture4 Dre Harrison was one of the wise, original people in the biological world# and he was the first one to cultivate neme tissue, grow tissue outside the human body. very important nowadap everywhere. That tissue culture WM a fundamental method of cancer rerearch- Then there YBS Rudolph J. Anderson. Anderson was the head of the Department of Chemistrykyou see, we had a chemist, a biologist, a pathologist-Winter~tz, a virologist-Peyton ROUS. That's about all there was at first, I thinko

Page  462462 You talked to Simon Plexner and a lot of people for infomatien. Yes, I waa trying to get a balance on this board. Picking someone's braiw with respect to peoplee on them in these nebs that bear en how long one hangs ea, fruitful with reference to solas-like James Ewine; who was pretty pessimistic. There's (L lot ef cslrnnenfiarg Ske of it isn't very r\ Dro Ewing was a great figure in cancer patholegy and cancer treatment. Dre Eking didn't discourage me, although his ideas were against what we were t x ng to doe I went to 8.8 Dr, Euing @ne day in New Pork and told hin that we were interested in studies bearing on the cause8 of cancere 4 were two of cancer as there are in many other thingso %e is a proximate came, and the other is an ultinate cause. ts of things can be called "a cau8e". If you expose pur hand tQ radiation, x-ray$ you'll get a cancer af the skin and you*ll say that radiation is the cauee of tha cancer, but what does the radiation do to the cells tha twe ty years later develop a cancer in that place? Hethylcholanthreae causes cancer in rather the sane kind @f way, fi A great many other things are carcinegenic, cancer producing, but that doesn't tell you what the real process is, and Dr. Eking told me one day. He said, %J, if yoa do anything to have this Fund try to work out the ultimate causes ef cancer, you'll just bs persuading theni to waste their mnoney", and he wouldatt have anything to do with that, That's strange, He was a strong lainded man of enomow influence. Carter Wood was another, but he was finishing, He was head of a failing journal which we took over later and helped to run a bit, Carter Wood-I used

Page  463463 to gcp and see hia. He was io the hospital at Morningside Heights behind the Cathedral there-Roosevelt? No, [St. Luke* 6-7 Wasn't L_J he with the Croker Institute for Cancer Research? Yes, the Croker Institute was transferred later to Columbia. vas out of-well, there'8 coming into my mind a stow as to why I Carter Wood mew these people. Before the Childs Fund caae about there was a thing called the American Cancer Sooiety, of C. C. Little, We used to meet in Mew Pork, at the Harvard club and varioua places, and these meetings would last all night sometimes. there Iran Buffalo, Carter Wood, Ewing sometimes, George Smith, dl the people in cancero I had a preliminary acquaintance with them without being connected with themo I kept it up for a long time. Itwe an old Cancer societg, and it wps under the presidency Simpson wcmld be Burt SiFapson was a very interesting wan, devoted to the building up of the New Yark State cancer Institute at Buffalo which is now quite fameus and able, but he was beyond the field special idear about cancer research, but he mer a good man. f interest ia age that we were aftero He had ne c I think we've gone as far as we ought to today, Next timel fta like to get into the state of the art and how Peyton Rous Fits into that state because - there'e long continuity with him. Yes, he just got a thirty-five thousand dollar prim for proving that drus causes some cancers. I

Page  464Tuesday, by 17, 1966 A, N. L. lul. li- -. 4 I'm not too clear I nay just bat16 up for you, I ran into this note, as I told you, in looking through the recordo the establishment of the advisory committee and the way in which it functioned.,., I find that We called it a Board. Yes, the Advisory Beard, and the way in which it functioned is really something; new and novel. The Scientific Advisory Board. Right, and the bylaws created for the Beard. I suspect, came at the first meetinq of the governing board, or the Board of bnager~. Mrr Barclay having to draft these bylaws in a very quick tine, Do y~u remember the circumstances at all? There's a note here about I rmember that we cansulted a great maw people about the organization of a acientific advisory body because we'd had no experience of any extent in it ei:tbr in II~ life at Yale, er in some of the others, and I'm quite sure that ue nua have gone through a good araw prelbina y formulation8 as to what we wanted to do and naturally brought them, in the, to the legal oounsel sf the Child8 Fund3 namely, Hr, Albert %clay. Now, this note that you read saidwhat did a Fi it say? 'lhe nste said, in substanueA the bylaws which he was forced to write in abeut four minutes in 1937A when he felt that he could well have spa$ four years on them. -

Page  465I imagine that's an exaggeration for .some kind of a rhetorical effect that I may have had in mind at the celebration-the 10th Anniversary. Well, Mr, Barclay would not have been able to write these bylaws in four minutes with- out preliminary drafts, and I'm sure that's what he did. Childs Fund ham never been altered,, they were adopted in 1937, and the bylaws and the Gift became quite influential throughout the country. There were many requests for copies, people iuitating it. Where thie, wisdau came front I hardly ISUQW at this tine, but it must have been distilled from the advice of many, many people that we consulted. to see people that were qerienced in cancer maearch and in administratieta, so that what we put together pasred through many hands and through many minds and l'he bylaws of the I don't think they've been amended since hraseology @f the Deed of P Fer me, I know there waa a great deal of traveling around stuck. The beauty of the bylaw8 lies in the fact that they enabled this Scientific Advisory Board to function and to have that degree of control over idea and pro- pam which without the bylaws it might not have had. Wetd known other case8 where the Board ef hanagers, financial managers and Y adnriniartrative managers, of the mn-scientific affairs of a foundation would b intentien, or by accident, or by ignorance , things that were net consonant with the scientific airs of the foundation. Alsop as I said last time, Hr. Childs and other meabers 8f his family and mmbers 0f the Board ef anagsrs were under pressure frm quacks, reputable and disreputable qumks, to do things that were not scientific in the investigation of cancer) er towards the treataent of cancer and part of the provision8 in csur bylaw8 was to protect our8elve8, protect the scientific advisers from ill conceived actions on the part of the Board af lanagem without Imputing to then aqy base motiver. We were afraid that they might do some-

Page  466thing out of enthusiastic ignorance, A feature of human life, ed, you confro what to de in the development ef a progra-do you wait for applications, or de nu design a program2 Once you'pe got the Scientific Advisory Board est8blish- this whole new field, really, as to where its limits are and 1 ?" That auarch fer a program began, of COUTISU, frm the very stazYt. I me here frm QIIC sf these early ainut. book records that we talked with Dr. Gye for @ne. Dr. Rous, who was a member of our Board of Scientific Advisers, had ideas rbout 8 progr-3 in fact, I thinlt ue asked a lot of people to give us suggestions aa to what the program would be. It was perfectly 0bpious that the pregran of the Fund with relation to cancer research could be divided at the start into two main subdivision-ene a pregrua initiated by the Fund and carried on for purposes that the Fund, the advisers with the managers, selected, the sort of program based on ideas that were initiated and brought out by the people con- stituting the scientific advreers of the Furd. That would $ a program enerie, a progrslla particularly as the Childs program. was to carry out the ordinary affairs of acting as an agency making grants-in-aid ef rerearch. That we could d0 quite easily because we were in contact with 3 2 "he secend subdivision very fine irwestigatera of imagination and ability who needed fund8 for the support of their rearearch and who knew hsw to put in lueid and convincing applica- tiom. We also included in that group of projects supperted through applications requests for aid that had been invited* We d see a man wb needed additional 8upport for hi8 work, er sane support to start work, and we'd suggest te him that he put in an applicatian, and if it was good enough, the board would \ 4 recamend its support and adoptierb v We did start later en in Dr. Cyril Fi. Hugh Long's Dopariatent an invted

Page  467467 program which taught ne a lesson in not a bad sense, but In a rather human natural me. tisn ef prstein by the cell-protein synthesiar-that c?;ancer cells can't grew without ergntbesizing protein, that no call can grew withwt synthesizing protein. It seems that the synthesis of protein is a fundamental biological, biochemical process c61~mon to all cella, and it probably differs in different cella, and it might differ in malignant cells qat. cotwiderably Iran normal cellrr because the mlignant cell in a body can cmtiaue te capture the aabstancea that am built into prebiart while the rest of the be$. is starvingo Youme animals and hunnran beings with en@moua tum~r8 which cmtinuously enlarge while the body bearing that tumor melts away as if it were starving, so certaky there's something peculiar about the synthesis of protein by malignant cells. Dr, Hugh Long, the Professor of Physiologioal Cheniatry) i'llterestcsd in this program, and he brought into his aboratorg a worker who knew some particular transaminase reactions, or some reactions that were partLcularly impertant in the building of protein and who started to work en that subject. We hoped that he would use malignant tissue and keep his bearing on cancer, but it was net more than a par before he was way off In a field ef enzyme chemistry that had IW) real connection, research conneetian; I'm talldtqg absut ita Ideological conneetien with the synthesis bf protein,, Here waa svmething that had been started on an invitation welcomed by a chief of a departnett, initiated by a brilliant young -her, and then abandsned because sols arther phase of hl8 investigation had greater appeal. That experience, I imagine, would happen with a good many attempts to I had a notion that the central problem of cancer was the fabriaa- We got I. 1% talking not ef a aonnectien In the Bense si applied impeso a pregram, er to start a program somewhere even by invitation. You can't control what the investigators nlll think, or what they'll do3 so at least we pot on better by supporting ongoing work, or work that sonebody really wanted

Page  468468 ti to de, and not sohething we wanted done. cancer research has really succeeded in getting an overall program, big program at the National Cancer hstitute, but they're all dividod into sub- parts, not one cancer research pr is interested very much in carcinogenic studiea, the actione af carcinegens, but is I:orkiag on a pragran of carcinogenesis that is not as broad as the field of cancer by any means. Wen, it's extremely difficult to be bmud eneugh-or it's difficult to devise a program. Maybe none of us were bright enough to %hi mf where the central problems lay and how to attack them, and that is still going on-a foundation in search of a prograa is a cmmon wandering sort of a creatureo I don't know that any feurdatieri bi There are . The Royal Cancer Hospital in London T" n Initial13 certainly, the als~?mphasis was rssistillg local idea8 at Yale and the build up thm6, or the continuing grants for work already in proqpss. T 4 Yes, as you reaall, . Child8 in his speech opening the foundation, his oped that although the Fund was not primarily dedicaticn speech, said that h an affair of Yale, the Board ef Scientific Advisers would find enough worthy work at Pale to make Yale a great center, an outstanding, or leading center for cancer reeecarch in the country. knew frm the hpression it had made mn him when he came up for his first visit, to justify a considerable investment, so to speak, in the cancer research going en at Yala with the hope that it would be extended, that new people would be added to the Departaents of Anatomy, Pathology and Biochemistry, particularly, and that this would develop a broadening and stronger interest in the subject. hr grants at Yale frem the start were all thormughly well censidered and were net influenced toe much by the fact that they eane from 'ale. .E. tl 'here WZE much going on at Xale, as he well U r\ That's true-the xniajtes show that some grants are pared donn frm a request

Page  469469 because the -- work really mn*t be shown to be necessarily related, 8r soatething in which the Scientific Advisory Board Wishes at that momert toiroceed with. A To Jump ahead- 'I'l show you that you never can really tell,, We graited a fellswship to a man naERQd Joshua Lederberg later on-this is in the 19b08, or a little later. He was over in the Sheffield Scientific School working with a wted scientist named E. L. Tatun who found a variation, genetically detemfned:, in a mold called nurosphera. bacteria, and he uas then able to transforaa bacteria genetically. nobop I knew at the time-that there was a cvaugation between bacteria. He made all sortdl of variants that he could distinguish metabolically. Some c0uld we, we'll say, leucine, and some ceuld not use leucine. Different amino acids had different effects en their grawthe Well, that semsd so interesting to tho basic problem of growth in relation to the normal cell and the malignant cell, thatwe gave Lederberg one of the first important fellowships of the Childs Fund, We were very eager to have a Fellowrship - Fund which would support pro- raising young men. Although that seemed to be stretching the concept of the liwitatiom of the fund a bit, the Board of %nagers readily understood the impertance of this wurk as prowise and made the felluuship, Lederberg frm then en became more and more competent in genetics, bacterial genetics, and a feu years ago he got a Nobel Prize for this work. probleat of cancer, but it has opened up a lot of good issues particularly in the mdern field of DNA and the asdern chemistry of genetics. Well, a11 f that is important fer cancer, but this bay on a fellowship. e 4 bderberg tried to look for the same thing in He proved- n Now, this work hasn't solved the t conldn't have been mre of it when yeu started We did a good many thin@ like that. There's Q great racientiet in the country working with non-pathogenic protosoa named Tracy MI Sonneborn, P man

Page  470out in the West, He found in paramecium a lethal factor called the kappa factor which is transmitted genetically and causes the death of the this paramecium, *?/$!,AI2 hati receive (. That's a very interesting--the possibility that ysn could get sanething going in a cancer cell that was lethal for that cell, IO we supported Dr* Sonnebornrs work for quite a whiler He was a famo'8 geneticist and became even more inpertant, U 4 Those things have a ssrt of prcgramwtiu-if I can use such 8 werd-cenn().* They started mall and iseM$#ed, and if theybe geed enough, they grow 7 tation, inte quite sisablr projects. IL This ia the first time sinoa uetve talked, I believe, when geneticists havo appeared, but I Rather this indieatas the wider radfioaticns of the particular problem ysu're confronted with and the need fer pickirw braina from many SQ~WC~S~ This isn*t the first time that gemticiats have appeared because Leone11 Strong was a geneticist, and we supported h5.m from the rtart in one way or Here18 his first thiag-Leone11 Strang, "The differential effect sf methyl salicylate en the growth of spontaneous tumors on two strains sf inbred mice", r30 Journal of Heredity 8546 (1939)7. - One of the first thing8 supported was 8 genetic study. I don't knew that there's much mere to say on the eubject. Also quite earlykhe fund got involved in the purchase of equipment where it was related, prebleo! naer beginning to get mre complex, and it required more eaaplex equip- f It hadn't anticipated the need to put funds into equipnent, but the =*

Page  471471. I think there wai an intimation cming frm the Bawd of xanagcsrs that they wouldn't be particularly interested in spending large stuns sf ~lebney on physical equipment, but there was no prohibition of thoughts about t, c+r what might be dene. learned from Dr. Long, or Dr. Kurt Stern, that sone quite expensive physical chemical apparatus was needed to carry on the kind of wcrk he was doing on gly- cblysir and other metabolic proces8es. One of theas, pieces of apparatus was an ultracentrifuge which we had to have made. We putthat in a bassment rocm and enclosed it in a baab proof oemnt column because it retatad at fantastic speeda, and when and if the rotor broke from the centrifugal fercea, it would go right thrsugh aqything almost. It had to be protected, and it cos i- a gsod deal. We had the optical apparatus for studying diffusion of pretein, aaigratiorr in electric. fields ad scalution-quite a lot of expensive apparatus in Dr. Long'8 department As a matter of fact, the Board ef Scientific: Advisers found out, or The others were net expensive. We beught no end of cages for Dr. Stroagra mice, fltted up rems in which they could be housed, and occasionally we baught an ordinary microscope for some one. thousand dollar electron microscope came in. the Fund certainly would have had to go inte electron adcroscoper at considerable length because that is a tool that opens the lid of mystery. *hese were the ws before the thirty If it ware in then at the start, bter OR we spent a fair aarount of money te aid the Chester Beatty Cancer The Research Institute in Londen, and that goes into the World War I1 period. British were not able to provide the apparatus needed for the rehabilitation of this laboratary, and yet Sir Stafford Cripps said that they must buy Britisho We defeated Sir Stafford Cripps by making the grant and saying that the money would remain in this country, sowe bought the apparatus ever here and shipped

Page  472472 it to London. equipment for Dr, Long's Laboratory, any expensive outlay for apparatuso That went on for several years. I don't recall, a8ide from the By and large where equipnent was involved frm outside so~ces, the thinking of the Scientific Advisory Board was not to get involved-the cyclotron, for example, while it may hold sowe prdse for the future, they didn't see tying up the fund either to California, or te NIT. Yale was stupid about cyclotrons-if I can use such an adjective with my Alma Mater, There was in the Department cf physiors before this tima the man whe invented and buil% the cyclotron, Profesmr Ernest Lawrence, but he mved out to California. Then hi8 brother Dr. Jeb Lawrence got interested in radioactive substances, radisactive phosphtrus, beginning studies ef the treatment ef leukemia with radioactive iub~tanceu~ We helped to buy radioactive isotopes, but we didn't gQ into the machines to uake them. I think the program at Yale-there was no work being done in the field bf Viruses), and as part of making Yale a center, or a drive in the direction sf re- search in the field of cancer origins, provision was made for studies in the virus field at Yale in yew: laberatory without the man being mentioned until some tine later, Yeu pick areas, and that's important,, What date is that? The actual vate is January 15, 1938-seme time later than thia publication appears, but lonet the leis, the thialring goes back a good bit for the inclusion at Yale of this kind mf studyo Pes, the man whO interested and influenced us very much in thoughts about the pessibility that viruses ha- a relation to neoplastic grewth was Peyton Rous

Page  473I 473 0 and, as I recall it, we invited Peyton Rous to be a nember ef the Board f Scientific Advisers from the very start. candidacy e4 s In doing so, we had to eppose the I RonrrIs main antagonist, Dr. James B. Murphy, who at the Rockefeller Institute did awe excellent work em cancer, tranaplanbd cancer and other growths in ani.eral8, but whO was fanatically opposed to the idea that P virus cculd either initiate the cancer, or continue its malignant progress after it started, Hurpkry was a cleac friend of some bpertant people at Yale-Presi- dent Angell and some others, 80 that he was in a position to put a good deal of presuure en the Board 0f Scientific Advisers to nominate him for appointment to the bearde 'phis illustrates the faith put around the advisers by the bylaws becauae they not only ceuld deal with the scientific pregram and projects, but they dealt Kith matters of personnel. members of the Boar 0f Scientific Adviseri. Theypdo't attempt to nominate the meBbsrs sf the Board of ftenagers. All these people-both of the boar*-- were appointed by Yale University only on the ndnation of the managers. The way it worked was that the Board of Scientific Advisers would recommend to the managers, and the managers, if they approved, would pass it on to Yale and Yale would appoint, When it came to the appointment sf managers, the Board f %nagers ceuld among theaselvea decide who they wantedo Yale ~nld not initiate a nomination, They could turn a nomination down, but they never did, They nominated all the men who became 4 4. You also talked to Dro Gp from England, Gye was over here a few times. He was interested in bacteriophage and ether viruses, and he made such extraordinary statenients that could net be con- fimed that he lest standing fer a bit, but when he returned to England, he kept on with his work on virusee. Laboratory outside bondone I think his work was at Mill Hill Canccsr Research Dr. Gye was a He was a friend ef Dro Hans Ziwder.

Page  474474 prolificr scientific writer in the field of viruaeet and was a very interesting and able man. 1868 by this bsck y@u *ow me here-the minutes-that I havo a quotation under the program of advice that we got frm Gye as well as Row, but I don't recall that we actually followed anything that Dro Gye recommended specifically, It was mostly a point of view and an attitude. Yes-he had certainly genuine enthusiasm for the virus field. This developlent take8 plaee in 1937 and 1938, and in an earlier papor. This period is referred t@ as "the physblogical year" because of the developnents that were takity - plaee en the national seeno. developments on the national sc@m are relata to changesin the American Gamer A88OCiatiOn.zW whioh C. C, Little may have providedo Ztrn net sure at the mment norw--I guess you were on that boardo I don't knsn to what -A *-u ... w- Yea, I was en the board when Little was the direator of the American Cancer Society. Ne revived the people out of the doldrums and apathyo He formed what was called "the Woo3ente Field Armywe He attacned cancer with Amazons, and this wments army that he developed becrurre a very enthusiastic and powerful body all mer the countryr Groups of them had a great effect on the administration of the American Cancer Society in the New York headquarters, 'hey raised a great deal of money for those times and did good worko nection with that society, I forget when I first got in con- It might have been around 1937, about the same time that the Childs Fund was forming, We wed to have long, law evening meetings- the scientific adviser's btscy-in New York at one plaae or another, members waa Mr. Frank B. Jewett, President of the Bell Telephone hb@ratorfse, One of the c Dc ysu know him?

Page  475I know the name. 1 He was mn the Board of the American Cancer Society. He opened my eyes to the industrial support of research at one meeting. phone Laboratories in its communication research had a research program that would double, or triple anything that was available in the cancer field for research on cancer. He hardly knew how much was going in to research. I think he was talking in terms of maybe twenty millien dollars a year, or more, hut he said one of the thinga he did i xehtion to the management @f their investigators was to leave them pretty much a1otl6offndon*t %ry to force them to put up a certain umber of ideas, or inventions a week and be sympathetic and helpful with their vagueries. wants his office furniturm changed from mahogony to bird's eye ample, we rem fitted his office, gave him the pale carpets he wanted and the light colored furniture and 1st him be happy," He said that the Bell Tele- i e have an investigator who suddenly gets a blonde secretary and 4 11 I think that's wiae. but they are high strung, and they work very hard. are subject to so many frustrations that have spiritual pains with them, so what difference did it make to Mrr Jewetto would take twenty-five messages In both directions by letting a fellow have a bird88 eye maple desk, he could be well satisfied, *he investigators we not really too temperamental, I suppose no group of men If he could get a coaxial cable that This is also the year in which the 'ation81 Cancer Institute Act is passed. That was passed in-was it August of19371 It was signed in Auguet, 1937*

Page  476That was the first separate institute under the National Institute (Df Health. It wed te be just the National Institute of Hsarltb. %en when they started the National beer Inl.tute, the first subdivision, they had to put en a plural, and it becam. the tionaJ. -'nstitutes of Health. 'he Cancer I,- LI n .I stitute was founded at the instigation of a very influential man living in Texas. If18 forgetten hie name, although I have written a biegraphicerl sketch ef him, $ this Dr, Dudley Jackson? Itre forgotten his rupb. I mete a sketch of him in the 1950s somewhere* Itts too bad that published in the Journal of the btionerl Cancer Iastitutoe my memory has gone at the mement-his name and what he dibbut he bad an in- flueme on the Congress, and he had an influence on Dr. Dyer whe was head of the National Institute ef Health, Rolla Dpro they started an enterpriae for eamer research out at Bethesda where the NIH waes then gttled, They got tNs legislatie% and +IS* \= It didntt have any progran to begin withe It was just a vague ide Dro Parraa, Tom parran, who was the Surgeon General of the Public Health Service under the Jurisdiction of which these institutes function, called together a camnitbe of advieer8 to draw up guide lime, or plans far P program for the dational Cancer Institute. The mesabers d the cdttee which was appointed, probably in the fall of 1937, were myself-lie .f ed in their report of this meeting as Profegser of dacterlology and Dean of the Dr. bss G. Harrison, who was the chairman af the National Research Council and Sterling Prefosaer of Biology at Eale and who had been the first man to cultivate tissue outside the animal. body, He did it wbn ha, grew nerve cells. The other Scheol @f hdieine at Yale, member8 were Dro Clarence Little, who was then irector of the Rascse Be Jackson

Page  477477 Memorial Laboratory at Bar Harber, and Dr. John Northrup, a member of the Rockefeller Instituter for "edical Research who was a very distinguished physicist and mathematician, a devoted friend to Dr. Hans Ziasser, a physicist with bio- legical interests and inclinations, and some of his work waa in physical ehemistry, la here listed as a member of the Rockefeller Inatitute for dical Research fiere he worked in the laboratory concerned chiefly with cancero The other member of this grmp of five was Dre James B. Murphy who We had a number of neetings and supplied Dr* Parran with a report which he John R Heller has since called the guide lines for the National Cancer Instituta and which 80288 of us called the "charter" of the seientifie work of the Hational Cancer Ircstltuto. We gave a report on ow thoughts about the biology of the cancer cell and whatwas known about that, the then proeent status of the study of the carcinogenic agentr, a discussion of the hereditary factors in malignancy, and a discussion of rez1oarch objectives. In the consideration sf neoplmia and the field to be investigated, we pointed out that there wa81 a difference between what you might call. aausal genesis, the things that set in progms~ the iamediak neoplastio change frm a normal cell to a cancerow cell. That'$ callad a causal genesis, the immediate effect, but once a cell has acquired neeplastic propertlea, it goor on a8 an uncontrolled typo ef wulti- plicatien and grhwth without any rrcrcessary further conneation with the agent that 0 started it. A good axaaaple of that ir the caicers that arire from radiation. People expesod to radiation at some time or other haw stme change made in their rkin cells, we*U say, that brings about a canaerew grQuth twenty years later, aad, of COUFS~, there% no more radiation going on to effect that malignant growth, like to That seemed to be the case in maw of these neoplastic ehanges. fgd hew 8uch teOhniCa1 diseussioa Of this is pertinent?

Page  478478 I This report we can read now, but it I a consequence sf a prweasl and terested in the procoss in 1937 a8 between these individuals. ilk. I I 4 They dl knew each other, I was he yovungert and the least experienced P of the lot, I believe Dr. Murphy was the chairman, but it doesrttt sap-does it? Well, anyhcw Dre Murphy wa8 the one I had the sharpest contrwerery with- was least successful in convincing because he was se strongly opposed to the notign of the virus etiology sf cancer. om or two draf'trr of this repert that absolutely denied any significant in- fluence to Virus, brilliant studies 013 the virus cause of SCLTC~~, aeoplaamas in chickem, fowlso He had a filterable virus that predueed a fatal. aalignant disease in chickens. I thought that was rather canvicag evidence ef the virus etiology of of cancer, but Dr, MurphJr said, and truly at that the, that no one had ever proved that there was P virus irmelved in the cancer8 in mammalian species, although staring him in the face was this remarkable work done by Dro Richard E. Shop, who waa alse art the Rockefeller Institute, on tk virus that was gotten fram the papillomas, wart Uke tuaaors, of cotton tail rabbits. Those wart like growths sometimes would turn into cancero As long as theywere in the orcfitnary wart form, you could get the virus back out of them, When they became cancereus, you couldn't get the virus anymore+ You could, however, know that it must be soaewhere around because you could get serolegied reactions-a complement- fixation test indicating tha he virus, or the antigen of the virus, was still in the tissue, but that Inmember that he was responsible for I had been for some timet much impressed by Dr, Rous's .I, forms 4 sat% a preof that the virus was in the Cancer. i-li The proef seemed to me to be unnecessary because we knew fS?m other ten- ditiens that em8 malignancy started, it continued witheut any further contact

Page  479with the thing that produced it, even with the carcinegenic compound8 like methylrholanthrene. You can producre a fatal sarcoma in the rati,wslll say, planting a little pellet of methlycholsnthreue under the skin, You take that Out, excise it aiter the growth is started, or even before the growth has started, and you cannot detect any less of xuethylcholanthrera8. SB small that y@u cant% find it by weighing it, lanthrene pellet frm the tissue ef the animal, the sarcomatous growth goes on, and there never 3.8 any =@re carcinegen in that particular thing. The same thing aright be true of the viruso \ "he amount is If youremove the methylcho- Well, ary controversy vas mostly with Murphy. 1 donrtrswmber that either Little, er Harrises, or Werthrup joined inte that part of the talk vepy much, and so when thempert was published in F31bl.i~ Health Repert8 in December, 19389 it contained phraams which I now 8ebr en reriev of the text that I gotinte that in spite ef tha eppeeitiam of Murphy. Some people regard the statements in this report as denying that virwes are of any importance in producing malignant changes in oells. hadn't really neticed before; Dr. nellertsr quotauam of a part of a sentence, saying that the organism which ham been described specifio etiolegical agents of cancer msry be disregarded and included viruees cuaeng them specific erganisma. The text ef the repert dsesa't bear that out. sentences la this repert that It= referring to--one f them deals with animal ++er later on in the parasiter and bacteria, and the other refers to virus, Report it says that the poasibility that viruses do exist in mammalian tumors is certainly worthy of further consideration. further uerk en viruses. Ira reading over this repert todqy, I found that which I There are tue t That w as meakat to encourage The interpretatioa ef this Repwt was .I~Q unfavorable to notions of the vim etiology of cancer that relatively 1i~;tle work was done on it for a while.

Page  480I A few people worked on it, but nowadtap itfa the whole field-well, I don't say 1 the whole field, That's 8 foolish remark, but therets an enomow awsunt of in- vestigatien going on in viruses in tmors, viruses in cancer and lo and behold, they have viruses now that produce all sorts of cali~etrb in hamsters and in guinea They haven't tried them en human beings yet, and I doaft know that thsy(ve-yes, thq have some virnsea out of human nemplasia, chiefly out of leukemia and stme gut of wart^ that beem malignant. I 0 "his is a very difficult aubject because it 8 I@ easy for tissues to becolge contaminated with viruies. The extraordinary pains that you have to ge through te prove that if you get a virus, say, out ef a muscle, or a gland, that it isnft just there in a crarrier. present everywhere. Viruses contaminate mest everything, so it'6 a very fficult field, but to go back to this report.. I~~ays taken it 88 an encouragement for the investigation of VhS8so %t me ge ahead and aay what I helped ts do in the Childs find in this field at ]lalo partbuhrly on the advice and under th nfluencs ef Dr. Rours0 There wars two things-I helped to secure first Rou81s appeintment to the Board of ~entific Advbera. He was the cne w looked to for advicje on viruses in cancer. Yale a very brilliant Spaniard tibe hd been st the Rockefeller Institute, after some remVlcable work on the spreading factors so-called in vaccine, small pox Waccine material, which he had done at Barcelona. We were fortunate to be able ts bring Dr. F. Duran-Bktynals to Yalee allotted to me in bacteriologya else, but Reynals watl in there and did very renmrkable work on viruses, Rous sar- coma, a whole series of Virtu studiea in neoplesis until his death about two or three years ago, It just might be drifting through. Itos sill i. dp The seeand thing was to bring to I could give him a place in be space I think we had to take some roctmsFacqsonebody Y

Page  481481 This is a site issue* An administrative problem arwe inhis case which teaches a lessono Mynals, although they gave him an academic appointment. His salary was paid by the Child8 Fund year after year. Well, after-oh, so1186 time in the 19408, after the war, some member of the newer beard didn't think 80 well of the progress and productivity of his work. They began to question it# and reasonably so, be- cause Duran-Reynals had a most wid rakging imagination and equally pictorial langwege. do, and it became a question whether he should continue to get the salary from the Childa Funde What wedd have happened if he had not died about the time when this problem arose *tm not able to say, It s a disastcrous c situation when a foundation puts up the salary of a man wh advance8 into, we'll say, the 50s of his years and has no fe timg on any other academic laddero xale University had no funds for a salary for Dro Duran- etd + 2 It was very difficult smetiEne8 to grasp what h as trying to say ar If his salary were withdrawn, he'd 108s his position at Yale, 1 CI CI r\ i The same thing happened in the cam 0f Leone11 Strong. We paid his salary, and there was a strongo deep conviction in sme meabers of the board that his work had come to an end and that the fund wasnct justified in supporting him any further. He had to leave, He went t0 Buffala. That questisn is whether P fund morally should suppert a man that is in a position of tenure and depsnda on the fundp I think the 108SOn drawn from it influeneed the National Institutes of Health to mab what they call career appointaentso they provide salaries, life the salaries, for promising investigators, and sanre of the other orgaaizations are n.u doing t t too, reallaing that aosaathing like cancer researeta is really a life long jeb with no 888urance of a productive issue. It's bound to come to an end, 'sually the salaries arentt largeo * 4 Well new, the relations with the others were very friendly. Dr. Little was

Page  482482 a vigoreus person who comtributed ts the genetical discussions of BUT part in I here on genetics very effectively. tribution CT Dr. Northrup Wme Ibe spoken about Dr, Murphy, Dr. bss %mison ~a8 the wise patriarch of research in this field, slaw of speeah but very cegent, absolutely honest, the one on whose opinion you depended very much. I can't remember very much what the con- c To what extent did Dr. Parran figure in this? m Not conspic~oualy~ I think Dra 'arxan felt that he had appointed a committee of advlsrrs, and he was wiae ensugh to let them aloneg Dra Parran was a vigorous Surgeon General. si the Public Health Service! and was interested in this. u This would indicata that the Cancer Institute Act came* in part, as something ef a surprise ts the Public Health Service, 88 that faced with an instituteb they hd to dsviae a pr~grm, er 8ome guide lines withia which ts function* Yes, Ih sure the institute was set up before they had any pregrms and that*+ why I'm regretful right new that I don't have the manuscript ef the thing I wrote absut the san who really did ite And yet I suspett that draft8 of this report may be up at the Child8 find-that you my have had. I doubt its This wa8 something I did a8 Demo I haven't found them in the papers here. This is what I did a8 Dean*, Although I was thinking about the Childs Fund all the time, I don't think I mingled these two, Once the institution on a national scale i8 established it brings up the re-

Page  483483 lationship between the Childs Fund and other funds in the fisald of cancer generallg For example, Yale is just nn the edge, early in 1938, ef the Hubbard HcCormick Fund, so that there is an increase in money interest in the whole field. This ma3- have been , in part;, etampeded through these Amazons--I don't know, but the climate was created,, Yes, there was 8 burst ef support f@r Cancero was to have alarge budget, but I dalntt recall how much. its prwsdurea for its council. Cancer Iaatitute fairly early and have had connections with it off an n until a few years age which I'll talk about later. Lot8 cf meney began to cme inte The Cancer Institute It badntt yet set up I became a member of the Council of the National 9 the field of cancer researcho and an enornous amount has co~1(9 in later years, a@ that a private foundation like the CMlds Fund now has to think not only abeut a large program in cancer reaearch, but whether it has any oppsrtunitye The fellouship funds that cme fioa natiena1 8ourees new are 80 much more ruaple than the private feundatien sets up that itcs very difficult to attract able, young men to the fellowship that the foundation givers, theugh a let of them prefer it to 8 aatfenal, avermental grant, In the field of support of re~earck~ thousands of project8 are now carried and supported by the National I s 2 Cancer Institute and the ether institatas, whereas the private foundatisns have much 108s eppertnnity to functien in the support, Nowadays support is so genereuarly supplied by the governaent and fedeial agencies that even a great feandatiors like the Rockefeller FeandotioPr laas altered its objeetivas. It's net any more concerned to the smme extent that it wa8 in medical research and medical e ducatl~n. It's 0 gone intobqxiiation studies, agricultural studies, learning studies, comamicartian, music.

Page  484484 'c The Public Health Serfice had at Harvard a group composed of Harold Stewar%, I 1 Nurray Shear, H. B. Andement-I guess)dating back to$. U4 Schereschewskp- I Shields Warreb d Se that they had s1Clpe progr- r Yes, they had a eamer group np there around the pathology department, in canatorry, hiochemistry-any good medical institution is bound to have field8 of interest, and they include cancer. Had you known Vesgtlin, the Director of the National Cancer Institute? Yes, I knew Voegtlin at H~pki-. He was an aasistant to Dre Abel in phannacolo~. He cam over from Swrtmrland, I think, about that ther He WM 8 tall, very handstme, 810 oving, dignified BU~ My first ispression was that he was musing as to his language, Hewanted to be very emphatic one dory, talking about a drug, and he said,"This 8ubstance is useless to say the least .t. daubtlcesC A That was very csntrinclngo I knev Dr, Vosgtlin in cennactien with this Cancer report becaum he wae the directsr of tho new Natianal Cancer Instituteo He wa8 not a amber of this committee. We were reporting to him directly and to Dro 'arrw. I saw Dro Voegtlin repeatedly and had only one diffieul with him which came about thrwgh the activity of Dr, merge M. Smith who was al ays full of ideas about enormow projects that would come about through hit9 stimulation. 2 t One of them

Page  485485 was to set up all over the country prolonged longitudid rtudies of specific kinds ef cancer, like gastric cancer, or mammary cancer ia places, Ife drew Dr. Voegtlin into this plan a gead deal, re that Dra Voegtlin and Dr4 Smith carre up particularly to bee the chairman of the! Board ef Scientific Adviser8- myself. lhey wanted to 8te if they could persuade the beard threugh me to put E large sum of lasney ia thls prajerte To me it was a survey type of thing that had inter88t, but nm particular scientific valueo difference about it with Dr. Voegtlin, but Iwas a disappointment to Dr. Snith, that he didn't have his way 98 this thing. n I didn't have any real Is that in the recerds somewhere? Another one like that--I felt that some of those things had a piratical motivation te capture the fund. my friend, Mr, Reginald Cooabe who wa8 the head of the Board of the Memorial Hospital ene time when Dr, C. P. RhBads was the head of the new Sloan bttering Research Institute, they actually-those two -came uv and arranged for a meeting of th Board f Scientific AcMsers with them. prepesal to transfer the Childs Fund to the Sloan 'ettering Instituto, must be in the race too. I think Mr. Coombe was the instigater 0f that. Dro Rhea was embarraseed by being brought up there to set farwara the great advantages that would accrue to the world in general, 80 to speak, by a transfer of thi8 money to the Sloan Kettering. is so munificently supported by Mr, Alfred P, Sloan that it hardly needed what would have come from the Child8 had, but anyhew, it put this proposal before a board that had already 8-6 practice in this piratical kind of operation b7 having to face the authorities of Yale University on matters of similar nature. beard didn't regard this as an entirely new idea. To jump ahead again and along that same line, They practically made a plain t That It turns out that Sloan The

Page  486486 Wasntt it lucky that it was set up initially as an independent entity? Yes* A curieus thing 98 I look back an it--Reggie Coombe, a Yale man, was en sane important committees at Yale, the Education Committee, the Committee on Derelppnent. He was an attractive person, and this Childs Fund episode came near upeetting Bur him in New Pork to say that That cooled our relatimship for a while. friendly,aasy way afterwards,, Rbggie Combe wae deveted to cancer research like so many who have had the tragedy of it in their fanilydis daughter died of amc- of the bone in her leg, lationship because I ventured in one discussion with + G. dn't think it was right for hiw to be doing, It came back in an almost extremely We certainly have jumped around* I don't know%at this will make any serue, or not. We've got the year fairly well covered, Ird like to go back to some. ether thing6 at xale and pick up the Child8 Fund somewhat later. I think we aught to step new* Tomorrow What kind bf things at Y@e?

Page  487487 It lllay have mystified you en mcersienr but we've been discussinn the deanship fa- about a weeko Me talked about preblema ef the general hospital and ita roble~ra need irr medical educaticPr and for educational =pasee, the budgetary p about that and means to help ita No talked about research in terns of the pursuit of twa ideas-em, the Nutritisn hatitub, a marvelous idea, but un- mccessful, and tho ather, the Ch'ulds hd. Taday - e I\ like tohrnue to what is 1 an administrative problem, I believe, inside the University and a hmnan problem as welb illvolvinn Dr, Robert M. Perkea. I think to get into it we aught to take up the coanectim Dr, Ysrkes had with Pale because it had long continuit,. As a matter of fact, his first publication,"Provision for the Study of Monkeys and Apes", appear8 in Seiencs in 1916, so he'd hind long continuity with the -by the time the problem emer-s as 8 realjroblm in 1936-1937* In 1924, at Yale there was established an Institute of Psychology, affiliate of that Institute was the PriaPate Laboratory with Dr. Yerkes housed Isan 0 in tea!ary headquarters in a barn with four chizapanzees. Pes, in hu Haven. A good deal of work went en, but mrst of it see to have been of the field reaaarch variety. particular-om Dr. Harold C. Bingham whc pursued a naturalistic study of the mountain gsrilla in the Albert Nathonol Park in the Belgian Congo supported by For example, in 1929, there were two in Yale, injart, and the Carnegie Institution in Washiwten. That same year saw Dr, Henry NissenJwsuing a naturalistic study of the chimpamee in cooperation with the staff $f the Pasteur Institute Laboratory which was located in Kindia, 0 /\

Page  488488 French Guiana, narvelous reports and improvement of the facilities for anthropoid research is in 1930, with the uenstruction at Orange Park, Florida, of the Anthropoid Expe riment Statfon, Its purpose was to establish a breeding coleny of dated animals 0f knownlife history. I think the follouf~ year, in 1931, the old Prinrato kaboratory 7 fsunded in 1925, in New Haven was abandoned, and a new laboratory was created in the Sterling Hall of Medicine called the hberatories of Comparative Psycho- biolopv, Fer ardminlstratire purpoass the laboratory wa8 transferred frqm the Institute of Psychology to Physiology under Dr* John F. Fulton, By a vote of the Yale Carporation on June 18, 193hS they established a University Department of Pngsiolagical Sciences, and the co-chrinaen of that departtaent were Professors Lafayette B. Mendel and Je Ia the school of medicine the Department - of Physiology was changed to Laberatortes 0f Phy8iology and under that term were grauped six laboratories a8 a conceptual grtmp--physiologyLp r inate bi ologyp neurophysiology, p haracolegy and tedcolegy, applied physiolo_gy and phyaio1sp;ical chemistry. only thr the school ofmedicim-the laboratories of physiolae, p hamacology and toxi- cology, and neuropbsiolagy, Applied Bsiolees acres8 town, and phs- logical chemistry, while it wau integrated in the work of the aaedical schoolp its budget went elmuherbe The report of the latter study which I readlasf,_ni_Gkt was a S But the first step taken by - the University for the exte Fulton. rt of thsse were directly integrated Kith and respowible to The Yale Laboratorp ef Primate Biology while their relations were intimato With, but again, fer budget and administrative purposas, they were not part of the school of mdicine. once this University Depcrrtnent ef physiological Sciences was established, Profess#$edel dies, and President CrJ Seymour set up a comknittee te stuw and report en the p?oblem cheated R by \ Professer Hendelta death as to what to do, As Dean, this for you wa8 8 wried of retrenckent-University policy. Yeuwere asked to cut out of tke budget

Page  489489 ef the medical school ever a two year pried fifty thousand dollars, and therers a statement in yew report,%he budgetary restrictiom...were particularly re- gretted as they wiped out not only a hoped for imrease, discusaed when Dr, Fulton was considering the eandidaeg for the profmssership of Physiology at Oxford, but also cut into previous allocatiemtt, se whatever arrangementa the University may hare mado with Dr. Fultom, the fact of retrenchment 88 University policy made it, I gather, impossible to perform. preblem that emergeaq In 1936 and 1937, and I gather by this the Dro Ailton is chairman of the University Departanent of Physictlogical Sciences, he writes in hi8 report te the president as follows, and this shows a difference in policy which is the administrative problem: This 'is the administrative The chairman of such a group, therefore, is bound. in decisiens and in the adoption ef general policy to think in term of the University, as well as the immediate needs of the School of Medicine, Consequently when pressure is brought to bear upen him to curtail things not imedi- ately useful to tho School of Medicine, decisiea must inevitably depend net up6n actual requirements of the School of Medicine, but upon the broader needs of a great University. The School of Medicine as such night not be justified in maintaining a section of protein chemistry or a laberatory of biophysics, but, if these disciplines are not supported in any other parts ef the University, it is obvious that the School of Medicine is not only Justified, but it is clearly obligated to maintain therm4 That*s a statement by Nton, Yea-I have no idea as to what the University may have agreed in their bargaining with him with respect to the Oxford offer* but, you know--you hang olt to o rare orchid samehew, ~opiewag, but nonetheles8 the University policy which he talks about here was precisely this-Jtto bring prssrsure to curtail things not iannedi- ately useful to the School of Medicine" given this particular time,, Yeu have no quarrel with his view as you stater With this statement of the ideal of University erganieation I bu~ in entire agreementt1, but then later yeu write:

Page  490490 When limited funds and facilities must be! distributed among numerous departments, to meet urgent needs, pr,ctical considerations take precedence over ideal arrangements. compare obligations and to make selections accarding to the best judgment of the value to science and education to be anticipated from any single part of the whole organization...,Thre is no occasion for a conflict here, but the prsbleaa of distributing support..,bristlea with difficulties. It then becomes necessary to Well, one of the difficulties is what to do about the Laboratories of Primate Biology because in 1936 and 1937, they are approaching termination of their supporting grants. Financial support, 17 'hey are without any definite assurance of continued This crisis has caused uneasiness in the staff,, Members have resigned to seek other mare secure positions, and this has meant a con- sequent curtailment af investigations. Some are abandoned, er otherwise cut back, and uhile it never is really clear what its rslatisns ar medicine, they are intimate, but from a budgetary point of view and adminis- trative point of view this laboratory has nothing to do with the school of o the school of I I nedicine, so you are compelled in this annual report to sag: Deeply as I feel concerned in the fate of the Laboratories, I have had to tell %he President, 8s I have intimated to Dr. Yerkes, that, in my opinion the ebligation for the future eupport of the hboratories of Primate Biology does not rest primarily upon the School of Medicine. Well, the fat'ss in the fire4 De you remember anything about this internal pr oblerr? I*m hazy in rpy rerellsctioas a8 to how this problen came up to me for complete selutisa, 80 te speak, becewe about this Sine I was well aware of the cuts I5 in the laboratory and that the Rockefeller Foundatirn had decreased it8 I saw the value ef the suientific supprt an ntendad to decrease it further,, work on behavior with them higher apes and primates. Q + I knew that they had value as research subdecks and as sub3ects about which teaching could be developed, but I think that the preblem got so acute, and I think that as there

Page  491491 was no one else to whom Dr, Yerkee could turn, he naturally would came ints the Dean of the medical school, lations with Dr, Yerkea. had a Jovian head, a very fine head and an appearance, a dignified man, reserved, perfectly honest, very able, and working in a field which interested me, in the ieme of an amateur peychiatrist, but I knew I had na competence with ito Probably I began in a small way with thi8 te act a8 an intermediate negotiator between Dro Yerkd~8 and the Rockefeller Foundation because I kmw very well the man in whose divisian at the foundation this matter rested, and that was Dr. Alan Oregg. brief an behalf of the argument for the continued support of Dr. Ysrkea for presentatien to the Rookefeller Foundatim, and after visits and talks, the Feundatioa agreed to renew ita suppert for a year ar two more. It relieved the tensisn and anxiety in this ciase. In addition, I always had good personal re- I amred him very much. As I said to you before, he Itoasntt very long before I had to prepare, redly, a lauyerts f I don't remember what the, exact next step was# but it appeared to all of us that it was necessary te have a Scientific Advisory Board connected with it, outside of the primate labsratary staff, and with that in mind, I can recall consulting Dr, Edgar Allen because an endocrinologist was needed, and I think we brought In Dre Carl G, Hartman as chairman at that time. He wa8 one of the first, Dr. konard hmichael cam in as a consultant about that time, but I farget who the rest ef the people were* Dr. We H. Taliaferra from the University of Chicago* You pronou ced it wrongo A !

Page  492492 Xtll be darned, Yes, Taliaferro is an old Virginian name, and it'a spelled the way you proneume it, but it*s pronounced "Toliveron Hewas a man I knew very well when Iwas *ut there teaching in Chicago in 1929. We became fast friends, and we atill are friends. He was a great parasitologist, and yen needed a parasitolo- gist in dealing with the possible parasitic infections ef these animala frm junglsr. tration of la department, and hewas a bielogist bsrsioally, a fine biologistr, Who else was there? Also he was a very intelligent man and knew a great deal about adatnier- Perks was the director, and then you were ax-officio on this board which in- cluded Hartaau, Allen, Camichael, and Taliaferro. The problem got pretty tevere in some ways because therewalr a special csBPoittee app@inCed by the Yale Carporatien, a joint committee was te rspmrt their recmendatioa as te what . to de in April of 1937* I dontt remember either what the Yale Laboratory of Primate Biology In- cerporated signified, except that it did own property in Florida and wanted te be in a position tc conduct business of its Own, It had probably land in Orange Park, They were close to Jacksenvflle and had political and business connectians out for, and naybe one ef the reasens for incorporating waa to be in a position te receive gifb, Then I think in keeping with the vienu that you had, that the medical sekool'rr interest should n*t be parmoutlt, I 8 sense of being respensible, the Corpora- \ tion cmmitke may have been established so that the University cesasnittee could be ealled the crustodian of this and while it would be administered in the ban's

Page  493493 Offica, it required a camnittee that went way beyond the Dean's Office- Hartman, Carmichael, Taliaferre, and 50 on* That's a group ef scientific advisers sore than administrative people, Hartman was administratively inclined, and so was Carmichael, Actually that greup, or one like it, had te de with the selection ef Dr, Yerkests successor in due time-I think it was Jacobson who was in the group there; Iliasenwas toe-and determined a program for the use of the animals and the future research. My recollection ef these events that we are now talking abaut is that I tsbk it as if it were wheslly an obligation sf the Dean ts work it out. from an affair of the medical 8Chool. You don't have the papers? I workbd a goed deal on this. I don't remember separating it in n~v mind No, Just this one here, The administrative porblm is an interesting one and in a sew6 it-s loaded with the pessibilitiea for mischief, even for the most disciplined of people-to have a group ef laboratories calledA University De- parbent with a direet line to the president and three of those laboratories reporting directlg to the Dean-you know, It takes a very strong president to sustaln and support $ha position of the University with referance to his administrative heads as Deans and have aasther person who is volatile, creative, impatient, like John Fulton, and I mean no disrespect to him, albhough it dots8 take a degree of discipline net to daalwith the three laboratories also in the 1 fl l direct line to the president, man who is president, I theught in reading this anuual repsrt-that these were a built in sucoersion of straws from an administrative point of viewo Nutrition Institute wa8 the final om because it was a bald refusal to apprsve It places a great premium on the quality ef the The publicly what had been designed and developed with approval. I can% see wQ

Page  494494 EL-.m-- would include i-nual report the-mopositions, except t@ clarify what youEamAf ----VI had d-nd had been compelled --- to do under the University rule, and make the recwd. I dontt knew whether this is so, or note My recollection af the University Departments at Yale is that we paid little attentien to them, either as adgninistrartive units, or as educational units, The main funcdion of some of themwas to deal with dvanced degrees autside of the medical degree-i;he Ph D degree in the sciencesr There was a University Department of Msdicino which Dre Blake and Dre IIarrvey representing medicine and surgery rarely used, 88 something thatwas theree I think Dro Fultcn and Dr, Long did have some direet associatisn with the president at this time in connection :dth their university departments, er in connection with this University Department of Physiological Sciences, and associations between them and the president were troublesome to the Dean, but I've forgotten the details about ito that I worried very t It appeared all the time in the cstalague I don't know about its No, butmou were a battalion commander and had a rifle company that was assigned to regiment and assigne you for rations.. . . Well, Dr, ?hillips, the analogy is quite proper, but the practical situ- ?lve dram up many organizational charts, but tvc tion is very different. never been confined to the channels in that chart-very much like, fer examplep what General Saaservell did when he took ~vor the Amy Service Forceso He said, "Avoid these channels. you get the business doneow Pick up the phone and talk to your opposite numbers SB I have never been confined by an organioational chart, so what you say !

Page  495k95 r about a battalion having different conman coming to it from different sources 1 le troublesome te a battalion in a military Isituatiog but it wouldn't be so troublesone to B school and its parent university and department8 that are in both jurisdicidonso places, and you're in A place where even en that yeu donrt knew aboutg You can always reach people by easy conversation in those hisper is heard, so very little goes c one thing I didntt understand about thisbs that the major field of their con- mrn in the Department of Physicloag was the physislofsg ofthe central nerveus =tern of prinates. Whyw sren't they more interested in what happened to I Dr. Yerkw? I think that was a personal mattar--Dr* Yerkes and Dr. Fulten. Dr+ Fulton wos a neurophysiologiat, had been trained by Sherrington, and he had an experim aental methed thatrequired him to perform all sorts of operations on the brains of dogs, chimpanzees, and other creature8 to study the pathway of nerve trans- ~n.bsien, and what happened when you ablated certain parts cf the hemisphere of the brain, but Drs Yerkes never did a able to mrry on the kind of study he did in behavior, if he began to matilate the arxhaI.8. Yerkes waa very reserved, and Fulton was very ebullient, I think, got on all right with Dro Fulton, but I cantt recall that theywere fast friendr, or easy companions. work like that, probably would not be 3 L Yarkes, -- The objectives of th.ir two departmentg were entirely differento Drp Yerkes always thrsughout the whole period that I saw him was interested in the behavior of these animals uithout any more restraint an them than was neceeaary to keep them in cages, I went to Orawe Park and got pretty close to some of these asl.limslso It was interesting to see how at that time they ware bringing somes of them along by addicting them to morphine, so that the chimpanzee hen it came tg need a dose would go and lie down on the

Page  496496 table and prepare itself to be injected-practically get the syringe for the doctor just like human beings, I think. Ithought - the Orange Park station was a source of supplyo that it ms note I gather from you No. They had some animals born down there, bat they kept them for their own purposes largsly, the country-I don't mean "freely" in not getting pafd for themo passed arbund some anbala, but thatwas not a part of their tasko They didntt supply them freely to other institutions in They may have Dro Fulton did not rely on this a6 a sourcee 3 No, Dr. Fulton bought his mostly, and Dro Fulton didn't have maw primates. He had a few on the top floor of the Sterling Ha1 of Medicine, but a great deal ef his work was done on the higher priautess He used nonkeya, and he used dog3 o Separate interestso I understand, I think, why the problem fell on youe There just wasn't any other place9 I think that's rfgbt and being a Dean-you have to be concerned with every- thing that concern# your school, and when you began to get into a problem of administratisn and support, such a8 this was, you cant% let go and say,Well, odty a part of this 3 can doo You do the other parton

Page  497L97 i Right, but in pers0nal tern in 1936 and 1937, it was sufficienbly serieus for Dr. Perks who I saw the fruit sf a life time of labor Rae Yes, he wa8 about to be wiped outo He'd lose his coltmy, and he'd lase forty years of work? tinuing work, but he had a great deal ef nates and material te be written up, so during this period of stress, he hed an outlet in his writing, working at his At least he'd lose the fruits ef forty years sf Cob desk. I It's odFy been until recently that we've now got prate centers. only smme of ita kind a8 of its dw '.%is was the I Yes. Nm they have large establishments that have recently been built and supported by the NatAonal Institutes of Health called Primate Research Centerre They are intended te breed animals, to have animals for the study of behavier, have anids with similar susceptibilities almost a8 human beings have tm viruses. They plan to use them for cancer ce6earch. They plan to use then, rand are using thent, f@r example, fer research an leprcpsy which can not be trans- mitted to any mammalian, including the primates 50 far. Theybe ianoculatd a lot of them at the primate station at Corington, Louisiana at a station built and supported by the Natienal Institutes ef Health* of dispute as to whether these very expensive installations, expensive places to There's still a goad deal mintain and expensive animals to study, are going to justify thernselvee* but they prebably will in timeo Does this ants Report tell the outcome of this? I know it got refinanced, and I know it got helpful advice from its advisory cornittee. Very much so0

Page  498498 r The director was changed. Dro Yerkes went @ut as recter in 1941, I ferget how long it remained down in Florida, but I know that in the past tu@ er three year8 it has been meved up to IBnory University at Atlanta under a tstally diffisrent sanagement-scientific and otherwise. Ll Iibhink the Rockefeller rofinancing, in aense,ws a temporary thing. was an initid burst to develop a new labaratary at Orange Park for PhYSiOlOgiCdl rrtudies, and then successive2 dwindling contribution frm then. This was off- #et, in part, by a study of infant behavier under the Pels find, PO that they were able to keep sGve through this Deanrs Report and the first report I have_ here by Dr, Blake because of these inf'ant studies, although his report indicates that the financial problem are as yet really unrolvede It's a rare kind of 'here I 5 4 3 thingo Ilea, and very courageeua people stick with it. This is just one of the maqy things that came to you as Dean-the maintenance af a reseurce, as distinct fro= oreating the means for new research support, or mw idee" to develop a program, or how to keep the local colrnaunity reassnably t I \ ersonal in teras of a manfs ere really ua3 ne4 tie any- I I where for this manr We%e forgotten another phase, of neurophysiology that cane almost separately, and that's the laboratory of neurophysiology that Dr. Dusser de Earenne had, was in another part of ths Sterling Hall of hdicine, Hollander who had been brought over by Dr, Wingernits. He was a brilliant man He i He was a great big 14 whe did excellent work in neurophysiology, especially the physiology of nuscleo He died shortly after the period we're talking abouto I don't think that

Page  499499 Dro Dusser de Barenne was concerned in this prhte probleme Not at all, The stmy in a way was that the termination date was just shoved sff again, but they did some great work I read that field report with great fascinatian last night* This is an account ef th laboratory. i Then thareta a special report on Dr, Nissen's field study/ Maybe people better educated than we are nw can make more use of the accumulated wisdom they find just by this quiet observation they have, Probably-well, it's better if you can study these creatures in their 4 natural environment Ia talking abeut the MutriticPu Fsundatioa we got you separated frm the deanshipp but you're entitled to 8.01~ vlewa with re#ect to the experience as a whole. It kept you way from the bench, but it didntt keep you from thinking about the A\ 1 "- financing of research and the need and necessity for such financing. I pos si rb In,some ways, you got a better overview of the total need8 because you had to deal with them than you would havo, had you not had this experience aa Deanl but there may be other things tooCb=ttz! line is certainly developed towara in- creasing adslinfstrative responsibilitv plus the search for men and ideas. Bo you have aqg \riews ou the deanship? Well, as far as the sources in qy case are concerned, sources of informa- tion, they uere constantly increasing in number from the variety and interesto In other words, I becane a member of a number of scientific advisory boards, or committees of foundations, and even of societies. I always d an interest in

Page  500500 the bacteriological side, the Society of American gists. and Ipsmunols- I became a member for a while about this tinel I think, of the Advisory Boa of the International Division of the Rockefeller Foundation* I waa invited to be on that beard. people were, because I had a little bit of an independent line, a line different from that which the director, Dr. Sawyer, cared for# As a matter of fact, Dr. Sawyer, Dr. Parran, and Dr, Joseph Mountin ran that division with a closely knit management of their -8 so that the meetings really were rehearsed in advance being laid before the rest of the membership and approved rather routinely9 but it was full of interest, discuss problems of yellow fever, dengue, malaria, tropical disease8 as well as diseases of the people of this country-all kinds of things were coming in all the tmo To me, it was all part of a whole continuum from the Dean's Office to these foundation and committee meetings and back to tha Dean's Office, It was just like going around your own home, eo to speak+ It doasntt seem to be a departure to go from one te the other. In the course of that kind of round of associations, you meet many people who might be suitable for appointmont in the faculty of your own schsol should vacancies become available for new appointments, I served a year and wa@ not mappointed, although most A Drs SrrJser and his close advisors and were characterized by plans \ YouSd listen to people cf great knowledge and skill 1 imagine every Dean has a sort of a recruitment center in his brain that works all the timeI I A ready card index, But you do gat stretched, in a way, at the International Mvisisn because of its team studies out in the field* I don't mean to delisit rour interest in any way prior to your joining this, but it is a continuum in areas which the Deans8 Office as a Deanrs Office didn't allow. e It was like salt

Page  501501 an the steak, some condiment where you could go back to tropical medicine, deepen ;VOW interest, because you'd had that interest With much continuity. Looking from this point back on it, meeting with tho Intermtianal Division rertainly lent itself to thinking about the kind of problem which becam with 1939, and the advent of war, thinking In broader ways rather than we can meet the budget for the hospital, tar whether we can do this, er that,, I was thinking expressly about pur view13 an the deanspip when ym leave the Dean's Offiee. the five year period you put ia there, YogV. had concern with students, with I gather yeu have na particular regrets with respect to it after multitudinous Droblerns. I think it would be incorrect to say that I didn't have regrets in leaving it. First, perhaps my fa lings are mixed up because the manner of the separation was a great shack to me-I mean, it depresaed me for weeks and weeks and in addition that happened in Decmber--I man the decision to go out of the Dean's i 43 Office happened in December of 1939 Myr ssignatioa was in in early January, and I had six n0re months of o lame duck existeace in the Dean's Office in uhich the problems were Just as pressing, as if I were goiw to be there all the rest t af the time, and yet I didn't have much of P heart to tackle some of them. Ihad no associatian particularly with my s~cccssor at that time. It was sma tim before they got araund te asking Dr. Blake to be an acting Deano and he kneu the place so well therewasntt any necessity fer him to cane and find out anything about it from me, I regretted leaving the Dean's Office becauee it meant separation from my admired friendas yoube got three miles of diffarent country betwean you and your own old friends, You regret too, if you're honest about it, hanging up the robes of power, be- cause you have great power as Dean+ If you go out frm Cedar Street aver to TrunbuI.3. Street, e 1 It s there, and people respect the office, 0

Page  502502 if they donrt respect the man* 'tm quite sure that I was natural enough and maybe vain enough to enjoy the authority and was sorry to have to put it aside* I c Then maw other benefits come to a Dean. He s on a great many desirable invitation lists. He has dozens of interesting and impcr$mt visitere 80 that going out of the Deanrs Office at Pale is cutting eff quite a bit of life. In my case, the Childs Fund was continuing me as Chairman of the Board ef Scientific Advisers, and while that appointment had no organic connection with the deanship, it gave me a lot of continuing interest in scientific enterprises and aasociation vith delightful people and interesting people, but life xas not SB full as if the Dean's work was going on along sided of +,hat, It was good te have the ease of freedom Prom some of these difficult problems, but I think I really was sorry to go. But the times change too, and they were about to make even greater demand$ on you. The ware We ought to stop now and consider taasorraw the changes in atmosphere. Om of e happy things about these reports is that yeu include insight into the times fl in which these events occuro Of cours)e they end in 1940, and the last report is as you deecribs the lame duck year, lass of you because it. is the last report-that is, more or leas a summary of reports made to you with leas of you in it, as distinct fram this one where you use the report at Bncc as a summary and also an argument for policy, a new context in which wetre going te have to operate for a while, and if Yale %tical School, or Yale University wm anything like Amherst College, the friction of ideas, possibilities, and lines of cleavage developed along wholly v The period of 1939 and 1940, brings

Page  503503 mu and unexpected routes, fight 81: not fight, war or no war, the America First Cmittes and the Committee to Aid America by aiding the allies, the Destroyer Bases Exchange-all them things began to turn the world in uhich we had lived in the 19308 almost upside down. I den*t new that it disturbed you in those \ terns, but we can gd back next time and find outo I want to say one mere thing about leaving the Dean's Office to have it on the record-the Office of the Childs Fund was in the Sterling hdicine, so that every day I was back in the medical school environment. The office was there, and many of our grants were at Yaleo cut off* of It was not a complete I think the new offices were above the libraryo Yes, from the beginningo Se there was continuity. Yes with the people, the wrk, and the locations

Page  504504 I want to-oh, try v- somethin today In - a wwess it*, true that aw pried ef time is a collection of variables which keep changingr I guess that is its -- Q history* and as it thanes - it ereatee, new scenes that you have to confront both - as a person, an individual, and as ha% As the 1330s deepen toward the 1940s our whole involvement in self concerniwhich perhaps characterized the early part of the 193023 certainly up ta 1937* begins to shifte abroad in the world -.cE across the sear Me face a Johnson Act which_enjQi.M! a studied There are new voices indifference-nt.utralityo There's the invasion of Poland, Dunkirk-successive _ things which are distijrbing. I think this is paralleled by a political campaign between FDR and Wendell WillkieP the third term issue-all of it must have had some impact, and I'm basing %his on what transpired in the atmosphere at Amherst College, It sort churned things up,, We had debates-between America - Firsters and Walter White% Camnittee, This seemed to be the great debate that went throbghout the land terminating with the blast at Pearl Harbor, upsetting period in a wa I don't know how YOU ~szit from the Deans8 Office. I haven't aagr idea, which Is why I raise the questien as a preliminary to th8 TN8 is an .3-cI actual action you do_get involved Se as a consequence of war. priaiLsay 1938 through 1%0, with increasing severity in 1939, as reflected in our own g,overmentts actions-the limited emergency, the efforts to do two I wonder in this - - r- things at the ewe timebuild a fire proof house and take out fire insurance. L- I donct know how yeu saw this, but this is a feature of the period, I dontt know whether therers any response you'd cara, to make, or not, Ihope there is, YI- It did have isaplicatlom for education-unknown ones at the moment, as to wnat was going to be expected of medical schoolss medical personnel, scientific h personnelp It just loomed suddenly, I don't know whetner yoir antidpted -.nus it

Page  505505 I or whether you had any thoughts about ito 5 j Yes, I had thought, but it's difficult for me to separate my personal 2 emotions and thoughts from official emotions and thoughts as the %ane Deant.3 efforts were always very personal affairs for me, nnd I don't believe that I had tha mental stature to generalim thoughts about the situstien as broadly as you seem to indicata mi ht have been the c88e0 side of France and Great Britain frosa the starto My roots are the traditions of Napolean and French people in Mew Orleans, and it 8 nalftzra3.* The I wag sympathetically en the x I The British are my relatives, I*ve always felt, and I despised the Germans even medically before the war because we had a few of thanp Prussian doctors, as visiting residents ef Jeh clrrogant--Jaraea W, Fulbright to the contrary notwithstanding-overbearing people that I ever saw, and I didntt like them; in fact, I thinkrnell, I have a feeling now that I expected wetd go to war in our allegiance to Anglo-Saxon tradltiolra and tieso I expected it so much that it wasntt a surprise to m when it did occur. opkine when I was down there, and they were the most + In the medic, 4 school even in 1939$ after the invasion of Poland, we didn't i make any particular moves to get the school in a position to take part in the national effort for war. As I said before, we were effected immediately in September of1939, when the plans for the great med%cal and general library ef %$*e medical school were in danger of being pushed aside by the crises of the war in Europeo That w as one operatien of the school that w as immediately in- volved in the wartime situation. J I remember practically nothing absut1938, disturbing the people. I donrt reaember any particular debate. I don% I wa8 think it affected the scheol. still in 1938, the Master of Trwbull College, and I did have arguments Kith the

Page  506506 studenta about in military activities, sheuld it be necerasary for them to do so. and others along the liaes of telling them that they sewed to me to be ashamed of their best patriotic and devotional attributes, I can remember distinctly talking to men like John Hersey They wouldnlt it that they would fight on the side of this country, and yet they turned out to be the unsuw heroes of c3uadplcranal and all sorts of places. At that the-you correct w if Mrs. 4nne Lindberg, is a book that seemed to me to advise a selfish withdrawal from the affairs of wrong-there was a book in favor, called the Wave of the Future by 'hey were all reading that. It has a lovely title, but it your own country, ani it had a little tinge of the Nazis in it, as I think her husband Fharlea A. - 7 Lindberg at that the wa8 somwhat influenced by [Hermann Wilhelm - 7 GBring and the air foroe people there in Germary. This book, the Wave of the Futuro took the students of Trumbull College by storm, so to speak, and was the basis of arguments that Itm telliw you about, which shows that I did feel a concern about the attitude of the generation that had t burden of a war, if it cane along, but the behavior, the ordinary behaViQr of the medical school population, the people in TrwbuU College, and those utside in the University uere very little, if arrgr, altered, t bear the ! E fp Iwas close to smo people who were engaged in larger affairs, and sure they affected my notions about medioalrelations with conrmunities at that time, and one of these was Rex rRexford - Gq7 Tuguell. He w as in the Yale Law School, in and out of it at that time, and would come over to Trumabull Collegeo As a Uptter of fact, somuhere in that time I went to Puerto Rico where Pirs. Roosevelt had beene She cleaned up San Juan, or help d to clean it up because in San Juan the people were living in hovels on sticks over the mud flats. She did something, or she and Mr. Tugwell were responsible for econdc bnprovrwent thatwaa connected almost inmediately with a sanitary disaster which influenced i

Page  507507 me in thinking about whether you ought to do everything that appears to be good before you know all the consequence^. What they did was to electrify the hills and fa-, the backlands of Puerto Rico, wkjen they did that, the people got electrir refrigerators. Up to that tine they had been boiling the milk /*OB their c-8, and when they got the electric refrigerators, they put the unboiled 1) milk in to keep it cool and fresh. largest epidemic of undulant fever-I mean Brucella abortus type of feve that they had ever had, electrification in the back area farms. It was not many months before they had the 1 It was all because they had done all this good to give them Soroeway or other that set up a principle for me in sanitary work and in thinklng about public works that look 88 if they are going to be all to the good, that unless you thoroughly corrsider all the possible co~equences youtd better not undertake so1118 of themo That sort of thing waa happening, The Willkie campaign-was that19401 That campaign influencsed DW politically becauae my classmate was licked in 1 getting the nowination by Willkie, and Rsbert Taft as a man I ahired very much, but I ire- must raw that I would not have wanted to see Nap b. president. K While this convention wed going on LAndWillkis was colaing forward and got the ndnation, naturally my thou p':eod deal to the national political situa- tion. Willkiets nomiination didact have any effect that I could recogniae in the medical school, except that he had been identified with the Tenneseee volley Authkyity. He had been legal counsel for the public utility company. I The Temgnssee Valley Authority comes into the history of the Yale Medical W School, joining the school in a national, sociological experhent and undertaking because Dr, E. A* Winslow fostered the ideas of the Tenneessee Valley

Page  508508 Authority, supported them, and knew one of the Morgans. Morgan - /-Arthur Eraest-7 was a commissioner there, I think* Well, Dr. Winslow would have E. Morgan at his house. He had me there too, and wetd talk about the problem of the Tennec8ree valley Authority in relation to the sadtation of the area, the health of the country, and its pople. Hr. Moriaa because he said all the time that all he was engaged inwas awater conservation problem* to mke effect, he really wan thinkiag about free electricity almost, schooling, and a sooiciilistic-type of state which at that time was beyord my active sympathies. feel VerJr different nowI u I got rather aroused in listening to 4 2 theso dare and to keep flood control when, in I I*r a little mora edUC8tsd* Well, thatla the kind of thing that would happen on the national scene and would affect the medical sehool to sane extento Md you hve any thought8 about the Johnson Act? I donrt know about it. The Johnson Ac PI the acst that enjoined neutsalitg, I Oh yesp I thought neutrality was humbug, You couldnt'c be neutrale Tech- nically you could be neutral, but of a11 the things that will tie your hands is to bemquired by the Congress to refrain from doing certain thingso same time we were stirred by Mr, Rooseveltts talking about the amend. of democracy-about that tine, certainly by 1940% and shockingly saying-I think in one of his speeches when he was talklng about quarantining Iiithr, he assured the nation that he would not send any American youth tc fight on foreign soil, Didntt he say that? At the

Page  509509 // Well, those thing8 at the age that I was then-I wasntt, a kid, but I still had a few ideals about truthfulness and the meaning of words-it seemed that it wasn't a wise thing to say, an honest tbing to 8ay9 and saying it showed he I really didntt believe ito When the talk of politicians, the talk of the President of the United States, did involve matters of whether or not young men would be eent abroad to fight, the welfare of your students, their future lives both in medicine and in the oollege became rather prouiinant in your daily thought8, and again thie provoked arguments With the studnts, but I didn't take part in any movement, or any organioed dismssiow of the war; In fact, Yale didn't have any as far as CL 2 I know at that time. Md it get into in any way the debate that ran between Lindberg and the America First group and William Allea White-because soma Yale graduates, Dean Acheson, Judge Thacher, and two othera who may not have been Yale graduates, but P whose names escape me at the nanent, published a statement in the Nsw Yor iaaes, trying to find a way around the Johnson Act in order to aid Lord Lothian whb was then in Washington, De Cg and was much interested ia trying to sustain England and hoping that some means could be found-1 donft know whether that arguraert-well, I know it occasioned a good bit of discussion at Amherst, but then maybe we read the New York Times. I wa8 not OIL the governmental plane that Dean Acheson had achieved by that timeo He was a public figure and had served in the Roosevelt Admircistration* Re had already been an Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, and he is a very articulate, intelligent person whc was dtstined--even then you could see that he was destined for high achievement,

Page  510510 This publication in the New Yolk Times was as a private citizen theno Roosevelt had sort of eliminated him from the New Deal, I think Yeso he had his polite farewell wlth Franklin Roosevelt, But thfs in a way was the basis for later things-like Lend Lease whlch ia a uew concept certainly and the Destroyer Bases Exchange which came in 3.940, - Itn very familiar with both the actual operation of the Destroyer-Bases Exchange and Lend Lease from the point of vie# of its effect upon the Amy kdical Department, the hige problem of preventive Xedicine that came about through our having 8 responsi fer troops on the islands in the Caribbean. the greatest logistical problem that anyone had ever faced, appear to influence things in the time webe talking about. I cane into contact with Lend Lease through Its effect on medical supplies, conapcibrition between the British and the United States for material of all kindso fld Crtrty for the civil population as well as a place Lend Lease presented the Army with l.oi Again, it didn't It was later that But as an idea in terms of making effective the arsenal of democracy. I wa8 aa for it perso~dly~ Yam, although its fUl implications as to how you go about doing this Is a different problem entirelyo I think I was cynical enough to think that the term itself F:RS a mnisleading talking to friends as to whether anybody really believed that the lend would be repaid9 or the lease honored. away which it largely was) especially to the Russians. I thought it was a give- Yesfi but in generial terms there is a shift in the scene.

Page  511511 li Yes. It's sort of pervaerive and hugeo I must confess that the scena shifting, butthat it wad like great objects moving i the dark to mep That K rounds like a stupid thing to say, but Itln telling you the trutho Well, when you come to each d- though wetre taking advantage of hindsight now- when you come to each day, the thing which I suspect was important, eertaidy at Amherst, xas self-concern in the sense that I wanted to continue with my bducaticn, In 19h2, I won a fellowship to Hamardo I wanted to take that fellowship so hrd I could taste it, and two days later I was in the Array- I It was that kind of thing. mself-that you ever really come to understand the nature of the forces that were alive until youbar practic6LUy- through the experience. You walk in and take Dachau and you have a visual image of what this was all ahout, this inhumanity- I don't think you ever reallp-lrm talking about Incredible thingao Then you pet a. kind of footnote, a rationale, a visual I I suspect that happeued to a lot of kidst wanted to continue with the warm and familiar. It was a fumbling period. They That rs right And this despite the fact that a meat discussion raged and certainly sympathies went toward London--you know, and how do you share self-sympathy with concern for ikondon?

Page  512512 That was inspired and kept ablaze by Ed Norrow. It used to move me a great deal to hear "This is London" AlSy I had the recollections of my close attachment to Brigadier Charles Hudson from World War I. I almost claim him as kins It wasnrt long before the Battle of Britain disturbed us a great dealf Thatas in 1940, I think, after DunMrko Dunkirk was a moving thing that we unCerstood, and we wondered how that nation could stand without any arms) witk- out any forti ications, without any ships to interpose-they had ships, but they couldnft get them in there, of nrg friends on definite plans of how the school might do something about aiding the British and largely though it took a personal turn as to haw many British children we could take out of London and the bombed area. Dra Fulton and Lucia FUton uere leaders in that. They brought over the two Florey children. rSir (later Lord) Howard Walter Florey7 I tried to bring Over Charlie Hudson's son-I had an enormous amount of papers to fill out, statements as to what my incane had been for the previous five years in detail, and by the time I got it all together, young CLrlie Hudson had gone into the British Air Poroe. He didn't come overo E The Battle of Britain started me and a good many Another stirring thing about that the was the arrival in New Haven of a gentleman now known as Lord Howard Walter Floreg, He came over here to get some money to promote the production of penicillia. He came to see John Fulton, and he came to see BM. This was in the 19408, and he wanted about twenty-five hundred dollarso We got it for him-largely John got it from the Rockefeller Foundation. England. and actually crystalilied in the preceeding year, or close to it, because Dr, Gye wholla we mentioned here not long ago, a few days agoo told me that his son had been wounded and had an open wound in his thorax, his chest, which was That was the beginninpg of the practical pgnicillin developnent in (r Penicillin had been discovered by Dr, Alexander Fleming about 1928,

Page  513513 purulent, and h.ct managed to get a few crystals of penicillin and put them in to this boy's chest with his own hands. He had a marvelous result, but that's the way it was doled out by crystals, not as they made it later. Professor George R. Cowgill in the Yale Medical School Department of Physiological Chemistry, a man we mentioned before and who had some thoughts about cancer research whichwere not supported by the Childs Fund, was one of our government in Peoria, Illinois, where they made penicillin according to new friends and consultants. He moved out to the fermentation laboratory of the formulas that he brought in for the fernentation by the mold Penicillium3 a mu strain of the mold. He did splendid work out there-he could get it out by the ton. Thoee things were going ono fkbg One thought about what you do to bring back the opportunities for training such as Dro Wirrternits had set up in the Brady Laboratory around World War I, and we did have some training courses in prospect, but I was out of the deanship when that developed, down long enough and laid a piece of paper out you could realize that there were involvements in events that were the product kf the European war. I suppose that there are a great many things, if you sat 0 Haw nuch can you tell me about this little episode? [Biological Warfare7 - 2 don't want to get into these others yet. - firmy Epidemiological Boarg Can 1 use those papers that you have downstairs? Can I look at them? Yes. The ones that you showed me when we went to try to find the papers on the developaent of the board? Yes, you can look at those. Thegxre very disorderly. There's a report from every commission in thereo

Page  514514 I'd like to see them. All rights I have 8 feeling about scraps of papero there isntt very much OR thia. But this one on biological warfare- Itcs tremendow. In my Army file down there, my declassified file on biologiaal warfare-it's probably got two hundred and fifty pages in one binding. k Do you Rant to get into this now? Yes. Let me tell you what Ilve seen. who wouldntt talk about this. There was an interview with Red Dubos You interviewed tb? No, a friend of Imine dide mairily about influewa and colds. He also talked with Alphonse Dochert who also talked What year was this? This was-I*m guessiwt, glay be five years ago, but this in terms of the way in which it merged as a problem, given whatwaa going on in the world, is an interesting story, and I don't know that there's anykbing anywhere on it. How far do you want to go in talking about biological warfare now? It begins for me in 19 Right-in November . In 1941, there were rumors of tho Germans qing bacteriological warfare, ji: as we called it at that timeo These rumors wera very strong, and they were

Page  515515 brought to the atteni3on of Nr4) Stimson /lienry - L, StIssori, Secretary of War]. You rcay have to go over--pfzrenth~ticallyuaU this when I get that Pile because I may get it mixed up nowI Do you want me to go and get the file? 1111 go get it* Let's do that becaose then wetU _have the .contemporary items. I haw, a great many papers ou biological wsrrfare because s asked in -.. - 4- 19b, by Mr. StiBPson to come to Washington ad meet with General TJmes Stevens 7 Sisaow, Captain Charles Stephenson, Dro Williapa B. Sarbs, and Dro E. Be Fred chiefly, to discutr vhat we knew about biological warfare, to help I. Sthson evaluate certain rumors and to cowider what might be done for the f'uture in this country in relation to prepsrationa for defense against bacteriological warfare and possible use of it. This began for ne, I think, in the 8u~mec of 1941e I wa8 called in probably because I waa a bacteriologist. I had no pgpioas experience wlth the subject, and I couldntt find anything, ab I remember now, in the general scientific literature about it, but I did by accident find In the index of the Neu York Tinea a number of references to the previous use @f WstS Of baCka8 spread el.tiflCidly Club in k York, ad they bad a collection of the h York Times. rreveral days going mer thwe referenaes that I pricked up in the index. ua8 euough to ahow that possibly the Geman8 had used it a little bit in World War I on a very dl scale la cabotage efforts in this country. There bnsSn80 I went $0 the Udversity I spent There Was good account Of haW 8- hSVMl8 had liberafad hCWW PrOdigiOSUS, 8 test orgadm. That's a miracle producing bacterium of great historical in-

Page  516516 I n terest. got it out of one of the early rairauleer in a cathedral. mist and damp, they put the wafers of the host out in front of the alter, and Ws bacterium would settle on that, invisrbly at flrst, and then a red spot wsuld occur, and it waa the blood of Christ, so they would go out and kill 8 lot of Jeu8. That's that organism. teaching-the beautiful color it produces, had a nscktie dyed with the piwent of the prodigiosus, so it was a test ergauiaa. They have severil test organisnrr that are nonpathogenic, can be 8prapd around and follwed and ware used In many of theas things. It produces a red pigment, and it s called prodigiosua because they In the cathedrals, I It 8 em that the bacteriologists u8e for e 'he color is solu'*ble, v and I once We colleeted what tlb knew about biological warfare at that tiaa in 1941. This pup tSnt Wr. Stiarson called together vas quite an info- camittee. There had been same papers published by medical oifloers, chiefly Oeueral bon A. Foa, He waa a captain then. Re paUi8hed his first paper In 1938, or 1939, .bout biological warfare and eane to the conclrrsioa that the technical dlff~culties muld be 80 great that y6u cotildnrt we those biological agents for offensive purpwes. about the vulmmbility ofths Panama Canal to biological warfare attack, and General Sirnorw va8 so irpreased that when he cam in prevealifre medicine in 1940, he determlned to his own satisfactiono that there was a great danger of the spread of yellow fever by Uberatioa of infected UlO8qdtW80 He wed t$is scare to perauade the general +taff and others to ranction vaccination of the American soldiers against yellou fwer. That had an enornow consequence for the Army, and we'll talk about it later, because the vaccine, unknown to the people Mng it even, contained horrologow serum hepatitis Birua, and uetll came bok to that later. It produced perhapa two hundred thousand cams of hepatitis in 1942. cr emral SirOaow also a8 far back a8 193, hd written

Page  517517 To go back to the Stkemon connection and skipping a 10% of other things in talldng about what we knew about this In 1941, there WQ~ emugh afwt to make pu take it very 8 eriously, and we told Ifr. Stlmson that. This is before the Jupanese had attacked Pearl %rbor, the period % dealing with now# and I1la trying to get the date of a very alallaing episode that occurred with the Inter- national Health Mrlsion ktboratories of the Rockefeller Foundation in New York. 'apanero appeared thore, and tried to obtain th@ yellow fever rimas strains that were being wed in experiments toward mHng a vacclne. a8 if we had afoot 1me things that would confin General SiRaDonst fear that yellow fever might be wed by an enmy country to iafect our soldiers. There were other rumor8 that de it 88- apparent that it might be wed, or it had been wed, urd thita brings u8 to the tirs in Awst of 194l-o~ I said, the smOWBr of 194lwlarhea Hr. Stiason and Mr. BuW arramgsd to have aa advisory emmithe forred. This did became an official camnltteo when Hr. Stinrson asked the Nationel Researah Council to set up a catmittme The Secretary of War didn't appoint the cdttee at the time. The xational Research Council did, and I was still a member of it. chaages of the c-ittee that occurred during the war. member. E. B. Fred stayed ab a men~?mr. Sarles stayed a1 a mesaber, and a great It looked I was a member of that camamittee aud of all the %nerd Simmons mrs a Other people. It had a 60de8 Of -8 reSw to tv to diSgtd8e it-'Yhe WB Cdth. B. W. was too disC108itep so they jwt rever8ed the letters. Then it was oalled the ABC codttee at one timee Those ~11%~ don% man mything,neept they thought they were being (ery oler In aomealing whatwrs going ono rr;V BORII nection with it was large cause the Swgeoa %aeraltr Office wad involved fror the start. General sils.nn8 persuaded hjor General Jam1 C. Hagee right +

Page  518518 away that there was such a danger, or supposed danger, from biological raterial liberated by the en- that it was crbedukly obligatory upon the Surgeon General to devise protective 10asur88~ to find out what the Oezmans going to use and iraplunite troop agaimt the orgadem. Anthrax wa8 om they talked about immuniring against. Even at one point we went so far as to persuade Genmn prirenors of uar to be bled so that ma eo Id have the sera6 to test to 8- whether they had any antibodies In their own troops to urmsual organisms. x Biologies1 warfare hod beea outlad by the hmva Csmention, but people felt that the Germans would disregard that, and later on when the 'apgnese caue in, it WIU felt that they would disragard it. T'he $urgean General had to be in- foraed about all this atad had to tab a part of it. The organisations that really handled the problea for the Anmy were the Offitre ef the Surgeon ueneral sad the Chemical M4rfa.W seniae. phtnrally it fUl8 in t~~hdqW8 of toaic gas we. The Hatiend Re6earch Cepncil haddefinite advisory obligations to the Surgeon Scientific Research and Developent had much to do with this problea, but the Comrrittee onsdical Researcb ua8 under the Offiee Scientific Rsrearch and Melopent /%RD-7, - and the Camittee on %did. Research m rclMR - 7, wats housed In the fitlonal Rasearch Council, Division of Medical Sciencerr, and 80 there WIL~ a close relation between all thwe organi88tiona0 and relatiom u ''4 fine. I do not believe that the Office of IfJ ii. It waa a difficult flouuderlag time. Hobody knew what would be used, or how it would be dispersed, or put into the air, or put ia water. There WoFe all sorts of vague positiom, er sltuationse-for instance, serious consideration waa given to the possibilfty tha$ the Gemarm would load a great big airplane full of culture fhild, gallow and gallons ad put typhoid bacillus in there. Then they would fly it over a reservoir, and the United States would shoot down

Page  519519 I' ?ha plane and would bring down typhoid into their water supplies. There wa8 great worry about sabotage. When-now if m can pa88 on to Pearl Harbor in Dbcc3lrber of 19bJ., the situ- tion became muehrere tense and 8erlms because rctully , General Robert Ce Richardsoawaa very fearful that the Japanese would lose the material, or distribute it in a faahion of sabotam in Hawaii, 80 we sent fra the Preventive hdicine Off%-, Lt. Colonel Joseph F. Sadusk, a long tine good Mend of mine, out tcb Hawaii, and he took charge of the aotibfologicel warfare service in Honolulu and uus bu8y at It fer nore than 8 year, ret up tung8 that had to be doas-et up testing laboratori.r, cellect rample~, watch people, control them 8s much 81 you could. There V.CI r certaim amount of that in thia country too for the w8t mer psible 84ht.ge of food 8upplies. For imtame, om time a great deal of canned seat waa found to be fall of pawdmed glass, and it hadn't been 8em until the cam me open after th. reat had been sterilioed. That 8ent Brigadier OeaerJ Rap A. Kelt101 to great effort on the part 02 the vetriarrg serVicrs to rample enough caw of neat to be sure khat theywere 0 4 d e 2 rll right. I think thir waa ra accidental tbing-thia glrru in the food. Baeteriolgoical warfare got to be extremely irsteresting and extrmely imm portant scientifically becanso money poured in ta conduct new experiaenta ou the study of metabolism of organism, of toxins, and the study was for two ma80m. he vat3 to get to know 88 much aa ~lpu could rbout large scale pro- duction of organiraur that nigh bo gaed by an en- ad might be Used by our- 80lVOl. The organism puticulrrly were the rnthru bscilltut, SORO of the rirrrse8 like the Q fevor virus which had been worked os veq exteasive3.y and ha8 been wed to produce infection ia volunteer Anerican troops in fields out d

Page  520520 in Dugway Proving Ground, Utah. Toxins were sltudied like Staphylococcus entarotoodn. A very intemsti~g possibility was botulinus toxin which is so nxtresrely poisonow that a billk%h of a billiontb of a little bit will kill. There vas no facility, as they call it, fer doing this work in the Army at this tim. me Surgeon haera1 had the ordinary bautmhlogical laboratories, but no big facility and didn't want onel so the big facUty for the -8s pro- duction of culture8 and taxina war put in the haad6 of the Chemical Corps and an enoznotu plant waa built at Fert D-etrich, hryland, to carry on their in- vestigetiom-beth of the metabolism of the organism6 and the means of dispersal. %ey built all rorts ef bombs out there that when dropped from airplanes burst into little routxi paekagos that flutter away arid acatter the st f, bsabs that produee saob-lib emlsions in the air that drift over fielb, over acrar, all very interestdag; and as almng as you want to nab it, and QI foolish am pu want to make ito Hobodpr kasw what redly w the extent of the thre8t. IbWy knew what eotually wm prratical, what cad be done, and nobody knew what muld be the best neaw of protection again thsse thingse he part of the protection w(u detectloa-hmr are pa going to know that these invisible microorganisms are in the air? sedirentiag samples of air ita an Impinging apparatus, but that takes time and you have to wait for them to grow too. u i? Tby float arouud. YQU cantect then by The philosophical and moral problems were very difficult f solution. I'm s sure %neral Magee and ''ajor General Elollman T. Kirk, his successor, couldn't bear the thought of the medical department going into biological warfare and killing people in what they thsught was a very dirty and scrsdcy method. They would say the saae about poison gas, Well, as a matter Qf fact, you can make a fine argument for the fact that biological warfare is a humane method, even more so than gas. The idea soon became prevalent that you probably wouldn't

Page  521521 kill raq people with these things, but you could Blake them sick, and if you could malm a town sick, or a garrison sick, flu cdd take it with ease, and E@ of the work has gone on that way now-even in gas warfare where there is qulte ats much concern with incapacitating agents. include everything from LSD on to all sorts of behavior-sffecting compounds, and they donet neceraarily kill. The that would be produced experimentally, arufically in b1oG.l warfare. They might be uncomfortable, but riot lethal. Incapacitating agenla nowadays nay be said about most of these infectlons i The Surgeon Oeneral centered the biological warfare interests of his de- partment in 'reventivs )'ediclnet, and thatta how it fell to us La Preventive bdicine to stand for the Surgeon General in these thingso some otber nane tht urn quite secret anti nondis~osive w - rthe special Pro- tection UnitJ in ttm Surgeon 0enera~1rr Ofiicts, atxi it waa tiadd in the Laboratory Dirisi0n in the hwventive cine Service. We had 8 liriaoa with the Chemical Warfare Sewice which wsrked very well for a while bueauae we cdssianed Dre Csrnelias Po Rhoads, the head of the EIenorial HO8pitd and SlGliPn ltetterfng Instftute a8 8 colonel ath the thought that Dr. Rhoads, being a rpedical colonel an8 the liaison officer with the LISurgem nore devoted to the Surgeon General than he would be to tb Chemical Corps, but jutst the opposite happened. by the Chemlcal Corps's scientific interest In the subject, and he became a clese friend of (3atnsral Alden H. Watt, and not only did ue not 888 so much of him in the liaison peaition with the Surgeon Geneml, but he actually made no end of difficulties. This whole story is Jut personal difficulties and eoaflicts of personalities and cpinions. It ua8 called by would be ahief of the Colonel BB@ad@ was fascinated R Colorwrl Rboads stayed in this a couple of y%ara--.ot quite to the end of

Page  522522 warI practically to the end of the war, about a year froaa the end of the war. He had been brought in by Mr. Stlmsan en a pledge that he would be allowed to go back to Sloan kttering in about a year or 8@0 He etayed a year, but he then insisted that he be released and it fell to me working with hjor General Oeorge Lull, the Deputy Surgeon 'eneral, to go over the papers in be Stimsonts office and to arrange for this discharge of Colonel Woads, alhough we at that time wanted to #end hira to Japan. We were getting ready for an invasion af Japan at the end of 194, or the addle of 19, and the Surgeon General took C actions, ard Preventive Medicine helped to carry the actlons through for the preparation of and storage for antitaxins in large anounts, botalinw antitoxins, what antibodlee we could get agairurt anthrax, and a good one wa8 found out after a while. There vas a pod deal of attention paid to an organism; called Baeteriun tumens% the organlwas that eause tularemia, and to the rickettsia of Q fever. It waa a cruriaus riXturo of sort of frantic preparation to protect he troops against saPething which could not be weighed or reaslared in any exrot tanner, a mixture between that and scw very Important scientific advances becawe it was like so many things that happened in the war-they result in scientific advances. every war and medicine and surgery of course, and most of that goes 0ver into the civilian so that the product from a war is not all death and destruction. Weat advances in Preventive Medicine have occurred in I have here 8 camplete liet of dL1 these cormittees and technical things- who, what, and where. Look at all this--ltere' a whole page of NUPBI of people we drew in. When ths camnittee-I don't think I want to put those in the record. It Isn't necessary. When the ccmndttee got really set up the Secretary found tta t the field waa too big aut to be carried by his mud staff, se he brought in Hr. horge Werck, who was the president of Merck and Campaw to be the head of MologicaX warfare In the Office of the Secretary of War, and 9'

Page  523523 ! bo Merck stayed there until the end of the war. He wrote this report that I rhawed you called the Werck Report. He was a very valuable, leveil-headed man in $hat position. I think he helped Mr. Stiimson wfio had great confidence in himo We all did, and it helped vory nuch to have George brck remain the respotwible officer or representative-he wasn't cemIssioned-4 n the Secretary's Office. I have hem-I wish I'd had this when Iwaa talkiag about yellow fever vaccine. This is a page fiar a publication of the War epartment called Technical Hanrurl Tn 30480,called e Book on Japanese Hilltexp F0rc.8~ dated I, 1941. It tells about the Japanese, but in small print at e bottom 9 P of page 40, in this edition, is this sentence "The existence ef bacterial war- fare battalions ha8 been mported"-that is, among the Japamse-*and organbations and strength are unknown. likely virus that may be usedo" l It is believed that yell= fever would be the most General Siaaoas got that inserted in %here, and that appeared only in one printing of that manual, The next rets of prints leave it out. kataohiTe the raceias had been aondierwd the Armyo Thatrs protty elever. It scared themo Wl, tho biological warfaro effort and interest still contimea, It's being aupported by the Chemical Warfaro Service largely at a rate perhapa of ten million dollare a year, 1 suppodlor Doers that give that enough? In tern of our relationship to our allies? Yes-the Britiah were intensely interested, and we had liaison with then all the the. They had a Molcgical warfarm etatien of their awll at Porton. knew the bacbriology professor who was in charge of that. Theywere particu- larly iaterested in produciug anthrax fn sheep. f lhey would be tethered in a

Page  524524 field and a shell containing anthrax exploded, and anthrax would be produced in rnirals that were wounded by fragments contarinated with the organism. We had r cl.80 connection wit the Canadian8 in exchange of all information and in addition secured ia the St. Lawrence River an aninhabited island on which it ' w possible for sate of ow medioal offiaers and other people from the Chemical Uarfare Senice to work on foot and mouth disease and rinderpest. You couldn't import that. Canadians let the kerfcans put OD experiments on this island somemere in the I 0 'hat 8 too daageroau to bring into the ccm~try, but the St. Lawrence River. The other Mg establishment for testing biological warfare agenta is what $8 known a8 Dugmy Proring Ground. Have you ever been there? Dusva;y Proving Ground is just to the west of Salt kke City. It's a " govermuent reoerve that is bigger than the ertato of Rhode Island, in the hills I and rugged mountdcm. a great ancient lake oaUed BonnmLfle. It 8 practically a desert; in fact, it io the basin of CI It is 80 that the tracks of the Donner Expedition, or Donner cmored wagom going through to the west are still ther-o they say. *be seen them. I don% know whether they rethen them up all the tine. at, target6 ageinrt the hills and 808 hew you can spread biological agents fraol the shelling, Dagwpy ProyM Ground6 is where the test with Q fever virus waa put OR with about a thousand volunteer American soldiers in the field. The k hagway oving Ground is so big that you can fire artillery 'I material was liberated on a carefully measured wind, and saaples taken every- where, a beautiful piece of work by Colonel William De Tigertt. Bacteriological warfare waa kept very secret. Nobody could talk about it. There was nothing said to people. Public Relations weren't involved because it

Page  525525 was so secret. Japaneee sent fire ballow ever here. balloons, and they liberated then in Jspah They went way up and got into tho jet stream. California-, there must ha/)) been twenty, or thirty of them. We had to go and have people watehing and get those ballooars, the fragments. mount of work had to be done to 8- whether they were car agentso We theayght they we-. cam@ mer. but they didn't rake allgr seriow forest fires, Balloow" they called thio. to do with our weather, and theytre very constant, pretty fast, It came to rather interesting notice however in lY, when the %e Japanese made a great many paper They crossed the Pacific and fell in the mountal.na of Oregsn, An enor~aous ng biological T It was aa axtraordiaary thing that theae things Fortunately they didn't carry biological agente-t-hey would burn, by could ha --"Japanese Fire $ Those jet rtreams are th ne8 that have so much Ib On the positive side-you mentioned metabolic studies on bacteriao the ones that you did, that qe talked about back in Hopkins and Rschester. The positive side with reference to medicine now--you knou. Are there publicati om? I remember CQI pi%, publications on anthrax toxin and antitoxin. Host of tbis scientific work has been published, and the publications Wiu tell about how you make improvements in the production of diphtheria toxin, for ejtample, or botulinus toxin by altering the medim. these toxic subtancee that were very mach like those that were carried forward try Eaton who worked on diphtheria and tetanus toldns in my laberatoqr at Yale. The thing I tried to do wlth tetanus has not been picked up, or carried the mysterg of how tetanus tdn gets around in the bo*. It's supposed to be pfcked up by peripheral nerves and travel along nerve trunke tb the central nervous systen, That's in there. K There are studies on the nature of rward- \ $ It s still unsolved. r(

Page  526526 I 526 Also while this is going on there'e great improvement in physical apparatus and precision apparatus. You can measure-these are called aerosols, and they found out a great deal about how large a particle in an aerosol must be, say, down below 10 microns. a little bit bigger. The method of masurlng the number of particles in an aerosol in a cloud all have been beautifully worked out-all sorts of optical apparatus has been d emloped. nufacturere have been aided a great deal by thelr collaboration in these big projects, I think a great deal of positive It won't go dorn into your lungs, if it's even contributions have been made, It is a very old thing. Here is a picture frcm Esquire Magazine of 1965, shovlw a catapult throwlng a dead raan into a fortress. In the old days, they found people dead of small pox and threw them with catapults over the walls of the dty. Your friend, Lord Jef Anherst, was an early practitioner ofo.*. This particular art? yes, he was with the British and would have arrow8 dipped in smmall pox lesion8 in human beings and shoot the Indians with them, and he produoed out- breaks of small pox saong the Indiana before the revolution. It's an old arte It's an old art. That was small poxe They also did that with plague, When people died of plague they threw them over the wall, or into the fortresses of Cities. It did represent a potential danxer which had to be meta

Page  527527 I only knew about its early bemnnings but from what you said this had continu- ity right through the war and continues-that studies are being laads, There's enormoue investment in therm, and I think their research program would run into the millioaa. After I finished with these cdttees in war time, I came back te be Technical Director of Research in the Office of the Surgeen General and irnedldttely got back into bacteriologlcal warfare activities which involved both tha Chemical Corps and the Surgeon 'eneralts Offlco at that time, Then I becam a member not as a representative of the Surgeon General, but just as a mber of whatwaa called the Army ScieatHic Artpfsory Panel, .I TASAP - 7, 'fhat gcientific Advisory pawl had a separate sub- panel on biological warfare which is still in op8r#ktlott ia the Office of the Chief of Research in the Department of the u ZI I think I'll turn yeu loore,

Page  528528 M* Hay 23, 1966 A, N. L. M. d kat time wo talked in largely ge neral terms about $939 and 19b.the cpng of \ the shift In the Wind, and it8 consequent changes la thirrking about Wt to do. In the end that bqcme the prewcupatierr of everyons who had sum wnsibilitp for 8016 continuing; prograrnLuhat would its effect be? 'Phe prmana were looakBritain was biag boabsd, and wo uere trying to do tw thiqga at the 8-m3 time, one coasis.t+nt with the Johnson Act, neutrality, and the other realisiagthat vb were involved, really, and all t-hat we were wab inn volved4estern European Civilhation. It forced reconsideration of eventa, adit was in that context that I noted oertain positions you held. - I don't know how iaapwtrnt they were, or whether they were important, men when they begin, but th.ere is a relationship, a continuing relation88 with the htisneal bsearch Council 0th two particular committees, one on scientificomel as uonsultaat, 808ldrza; men end idem, and the other i field of pathologg_ch would indicate linea to Mashirgtoa and the center of things. The National - Bemearch Cmnncil was own to goo, as it haul been through 5( acquaintanceship picked uawer the yeam. Out of this contefit there emerge___ certainly two nen in particular, initiUy* who were r esponaible for feeusin mmement, or their anxieties into the s2eci.l board, the Amqy Epidepaiolea Board, though it+ a larger title. emerpence of this board, and-nore particularly of the two people I mentioned, Colonel James Steveas Sirmona and Dre Francis G. Blake, though there are others -butts background, the pilini referemce, or key points that helped to float and sustain itc_ This i.uite igip *ha not 81p [ \ h I want you to think in terms of the nt in the light of what happens. I ha~o the opinion that the connection with the National Research Council

Page  529529 in 19L0, was a relatively minor affair frar their point of view ar it waa fraia mine. te serve OQ all sorts of committees of organlsatioas at that tine, and it atill ie, Youtve named two cdtbes of the Gtional Research Council, Division of bdical Sciencos which apparently I belonged to, but I do not think either OD, ef th personnel c@mitteo wa6 one that dealt with qwstiorrOires, aipted people to find oat whal their corppaibraurte WON andaurlr. priority lists that pdght be woful if it became ascesrrary for the c0uncilp or aqg of tho agencies to call io men tm sem voluntarily on smm mientific adhrinistratite project. en Pathology was a broadly interested committee. cal pathology, but wa8 me concerned tath the real basifimeaaing of pathology which is scientific knowledge of diare~se, and this dealt with pathological physiology, that are outside of aaatomicil pathology, Thoso comnittees mro pleasant and interesting bodies to be united with. They had t;tm er three meetings a year, sometires nore, and when called together, this caused a group of men from around the country to neet in Wuhington for a day, or two. for keeping the MUll\J8ra currently informed, and tho naobsrs could make BOPSC) contribution too, but .dl I say, neither one of these cdttees la my opinio wa inpartan%. Itwas habitual with haw and members of faculties of medical schools A. n WUI of any particular irrportance, The ~snpower, saientific manpower 4 C The Committee It was not limited to anatmi- C t It dealt with iafectiotas diseases and quite a number Qf things It was a mechanism is Ia addition the %tional Research Council Division of Hedical Sciences had at least a two made on large fielb of activity within the Mviaie~ of bdical Sciences, That was an occasion wnen fennec offloem of the division woald appear, and it was also a aocial as well as a scienkific Bccaslono What other things brought re to Washington at that the, I don't know, but I seem to think there ware sopre things like the activities of the Leonard Wood norial, a Foundation for bprosy annual meeting in Washington at which sumnary roportr were

Page  530530 studiea and control, OD which I was a nmber of the Scientific Advisory Board for a good IIULW years. Waehington and wm anather certinuing connection for me with the people con- cerned with the oontrol of infectiow diseases, people who did not live in Wew Haven only, or live ir #ashington enly, but were representative people frcea It met usually in Naw York, but sometimes it met in .- ~~and the CeUIttq. I think already told about the dirturbams that were casing into our liver throagh the cwerwkeMng march of the Germans through the Low Countries, the fall of Frame, Dunkirk for the British, the bumbing ef London, the Battle of Britain, and the coneern vd felt to do stmething to bring sfam ef the British children to this coarrtry. That kept us peraronally in contact wikh the progress of the war in Eurepe. I had no real Cl08e manection with the pre- ventive rediclao developnnt6 in the Office of the Surgeon 'eneral, although I knsw a bit ab what ww going on througk my csmections with Dr. Blake, whom putre rentiowd, and Lt. Colonel, BPI he then va8, SimRoaso I really haven't vow much mors that I ean add that I can drag up eut sf my rwollsctior about activities of 1940, h We mentioned one last thys, not 1940, tMs special study that you did for the Secretary of War uhich...,, On biolegical warfare? That was in 1941. lhtms all covered in that other talk. I In so far w you knw, even if i is it related to in the way of backgreurd? second haad how did this emerge and what

Page  531531 Yeu wan the A- Epidemiological Board? Tbe stom should really go back to the activities and idear of General George Me Sternberg who wa8 the Surgeon General of the United States Anaiy from about 1893 until 1912, somewhere along in theme Part of his activities that can be sald to be relabed dlrectlyto the genesis of the idea ef the Army E@ldmlological Board were those activities through which he established re- search boards that had in their ob$ectives, their procedures, many of the elements that reappear in the Army Egidemlologlcol Beard ret upo These were lvrearoh b9h that General Sternberg established in the hdical Department of the Amy about 1900, when the United States wercam Spain in 1898, and sailed out into the world as a great, coming naval power and for the first the an international influence and force. Itwas soon realioed that the United States war responsible for the welfare and health of lrillious and nillioas of people living In a tr pica1 et~~ir~~~(i~~, and that the health of these people was properly a matter for collsideration by the Hedied Department of the Amy which waa the only professlonil, nedically equipped ami trained unit in the War `I i Department that could adertala the necessary work. Inl900, General Stemberg established the Walter bed Cmmissiorr for the otudy of yellew fever in Cub and within a year--that stsry is so well known that you doart want to rehearse it here, but withla a year Walter Roed and his aseociates, desee We Looear, ArIst3.de Agraaonte, and XWS C/.~A~Q(\ had ahown that the Aedes egypti mosquito was the arthropod vector of yellow fever and that yellow fever was caused by a filterable virus. That was all done within a yearo By 19018 yellow fever had been stepped in Havana, and the whole

Page  532532 of the modern era of the control of yellow fever began to developo Walter Reed had a long and possibly disorganizing field service experience with the Amy, and at one period he did go off to Johns Hopkins and wad able to study under Dr, Welch for a while which was very imports, and Walter Reed hoped to get back there soa~ day which he did after the Cuban experience. I mention this became Walter Reedts association with Dr. Welch is aot sufficiently well known. A few people know that it was Dr, Welch who said to Walter Reed once and I think wrote him, that since he could not find any visible bacteria, any microorganisms in the blood of yellow fever patients, he really should look for a filterable virus. About that time the work on foot and mouth disease, a viral infection, waa first coning out mffler - and Frosch, 1897- 18987, - and Dr. Welch was alert to those things, well, an example that makes me want to make this point is that I heard today a major general high in the Mediad. hpartaent, speaking at the 25th Anniversary of the founding establisbment of the Ammy Epidemiological Board, say that Walter Peed like Sternberg waa a lsne worker without much help from adv5serar and consultanta as the imemtigator can get aowsdays from the wide Well, thatb not true. Walber Reed had advice frem Dr. Welch, and Walter Reed had great advim from Carlor Finlay who believed that thi8 mosquito carried yellow fever, but wasn't able to prove it, and Walter Reed had the extraordinary and Important advice from Major Carter who noticed that after a case of yellow fever appeared in a town, say, in Leuisiaaa, or 8-Wre) there ua8 about a period of two weeks before the next cane appeared, and that observation of Carter%. o o . For e-ple, I heard it said- aasociat5on. Hade all the differencscp Yes, made all the difference, ED to Walter Reed from the outside came the

Page  533533 definite, positive suggestion, almost an opinion, of Carlos Finlay that the uoequlto was the carrier, Carterra observation of the period of time thatas required for the dwelopnent of the virus in an Infected person and tranaferrlag it to the aosquit*, and then Dr, Welchta suggestion that It was (c virus. Walter Reed had fairly good advice, and that was used by him with great power and skill, Him9 the type of operation of the Yellsw Fever Commission In Havana had these main elementao At first, it involved the calling together of a group of able, well Informed men capable of conductiw experiments under difficult cbnditiona with very scientific, critloal protocols. The other element was the association of civilians with the aoilitary in such an undertaking which occurs again, as you will seeo Walter Reed uaa associated with Carlos Finlay who was a civilirr, and Dr. Agramonh in Havana and several other people whose naes I donft mmienber at the moment were civilians and kaavlsdgerble uiviliam. any suoh board is the financing. Walter Reed probably had relatively little money for the conduct of the work that he was doing on yellw fever, and he didntt need much money, He had a hospital that had bemn taken over frcaa the Spaniards. He had volanteer soldiers se subjects, and he needed practically very little equipent besides a few tubers and a microscope. The financing, however, had to be previded from the Medical DspOlrWent of the Army. That required travel expenses and other things, so all of thoae elements were in that original Yellow Fever Cmmissionts charter, PO to speak* or set up. Thatwas one element, The third elemeat ef importance in the arrangements for At the same time in 1900, or about the same time, General Sternberg established the Tropioal Disease Research Board in the PhiUppines which was a very important one. It lasted frm 190, really, miti1 about 1933, through about

Page  534534 two or three phases. a bit, I think, under Surgeon 'eneral Robert #. OWeilly and then another board urn appointed, ad then a third one, The people on those Philippine1 Boerrda uere given the freest aharter, so to speak, or the finest choice of problems they would work on so long as they were prsblema that they saw were important te the people in the Philippine Glands, for example, and to tho treops in those iehnd8, and they were thought to bo iraportrnt frola the point of view of their threat to the health of soldiers and of civiliam and to the econany of the country. The purposo of undertaking sttientifie relraarch in the Philippino Islands 18- to lpke it possible for the Tropical Hseaso Research Board to study them disease8 In the land a which they occurred. They had a principle which rtmppeared again in the Army Epidslaiol@gid Beard ob3ectives; to study dseasor where they mcw and alee in laboraterioa that were rather backup laboratories, you d#t say, or where the basic work could be carried en after the apehens were first exaaaind in the field. There was one b ard that laated a while, and then lapsed i Well, examples of what war done out In the Phillppims wa8 the discovery ef bertberi by Captain Charles B. Vedder, a whole lot of nutritional studies eathe deficiemim of vitamias, or from eating poliehed rice which cau8es neuritis from the lack of vitami-, tdesm, para1 80 %ere were cellent entomological studies ou the rosquitoes and arthropod vectors of the island.* There wore studies 611 malaria of all kinds. Colonel dsseph F. Suer and later Colonel Jars8 Steve- Sianow diacovered the vim of dengue fever out there and ita transmission by an Aedes mamquito* The work was carried OIL ia totally medera methods and conceptions that almortcas 'bo often thought, the Army Epidemiological Beard waa just a centinustion of that kind of thing. d 1.. Another research board was set up in panaaa, and to that Colonel Simmons, or Major Siarsona then, was tranarferred, and he served on this bsard in panama

Page  535535 for a number of years. He got deeply interested in malaria and had same extraordinary fleld experiellices when the troops were taken out of their barracks in Panama City, or the Canal ZQM and were sent on maneuver8 through the Jungle down there. In neither ease did they cum acrvs8 yellow fever, a8 far as I remember. Of course, in the Philippines there is DO yellow fevero ef the mysteries of the world-u there is n lKT ri the Philippines, or in Southeast Aria, or Indiao Tho80 countries including Hew Guinea are the aaturrl habitat of the very maquit. that carries dengue fever and carrier yellow fever, but for sene roason, known enly to God so far, yellow fever has never broken out in thoae regiear, and therers ne imuaity of the people* * t n It s one This fact rill came up later when we talk about quarantine rcgulatieaa warbed oat by Preventive Medicine Ita World War 11, + duction 0f yellen fever into India was 80 great that the quarantine regalations of the most restrictive type were instituted by the Britiah and the Indian govermentr, and at one tiab these regulations were sa difficult to live up te and eo obstructive that our troops could not be landed, They had to stay two weeks OR a 8hip in a harbor in Bonbey, and air flig:hi were iqdedo IrU ten mere about that later. The fear of the iatrtw o f 5. To go back to these boar-they did excellent researoh in the Phllippbea 2 sad la Panam, and it ir important to note that Lt. Colonel Shanons, os he's now beceaing, finally Brigadier General Simnons, wtrowas the founder, in my opinion, of the Army Epidemiolegical Board, had basic experience a8 a manber of these research beer ila the Philippines and in pa-, and actually a8 the President ef the Board in Panama for a while* Another group of herds cam about in World War I, appointed by nerd. Williaa Crawford Gorgas, the Surgeon General, and these are called the Pneumonia Comndesiaao There were dreadful streptococcal infections and empyema-

Page  536536 highly fatal-and pneumonias ita the induction centers and in the big camps in the United States in 1918-1919, which is the erame time a180 as the fierce parndeniic of influema that swept the uorld, You couldn't do amhing about influema. You can't do much about it at present, except to vaccinate against it, but they didn't even have a vaccine then. The mortality froea sichesa in that period frola 1918 to 1919, was due to streptococcal pmtpnonis, lobar pneumonia of the pmraaococclrs tm, empyemas, septicemia, and very violent in- fectiom. d+inguish.d cmtioa. Its leader, I think, was Dro Rtlfus Cele who wo8 the head of the Rockefeller Institute Hospital. Associated with hbm was Drc Tem Riverrs, the brilliant Dro Oe T. Avery, another brillianlb and thoughtful f4 This Pneumonia Board that was appoi ted at that time had a very 4 1 worker in infectious diareases, Dr. Alphanss R. Dochex, and a very substantial ~ man uho becomes important again in the Army Epidemiological Board, Dr, Francis 1 GilmPan Blah. That group worked just os the drqy Elpidemislogical Beard Comm missions worked by going out into the field and studying the diseases among the troops in their living enriroment, the ecology in which they existed, and mung observations in the field and in the military laboratories, and bringing back to their own laboratories spec~eas for further study. MacCallnr uho was a member of the Pneumonia Cumiesioa brought back a great deal of material from pemmonic lungs a partanent of pathology. mostly at the Roclkefellar Inratitute with Dro Cole, Dr. Avery, and Dro Doche%, Dr. William G. ther lesioas to Johns Hopki~~l De- The bacterial and serological studies were conducted 4 Hw that is, I think, a sufficient background of the Army Epidemiological Board because the board and may of the same people that 'Ive mentioned were connected with the Board. first from Panama In 1939, to be in the Office of the Swgeon of the let cc=Rf3% general ideas prevailed in the establishment of the J In the Surgeon hneral'r Office, hneral Sheas, as I said, was brought

Page  537I 537 Command in Boston. He then mrs transferred to the Surgeon General's Office in Harshington on February 24, 19h0, 'Ihe recorda arenrt entirely clear, but I think he wae chosen for this wove through the knowledge that the then Surgeon GenersS, 'ajor General Charles R. ReyuolGs, had of General Sirmaom. General Reynolds wa8 bistinctly interested in preventive Medicine. General's Offlce at this tme Preventive cine had no atandfng a8 s specialty. The activities in Preventive hdicfru, were diffused in a naaaeless fashion through the bofessiond Service Mvisisn in the Office ef the Surgeon %nerd. The Surgeon nerd explalned In 2s Annual Report for that year, that the demands on the Professional Service Division were so varied, as he put it, that it had been found hpracticd to bracket any of the activities in any special subdivisl.on. 'rofeasional service, for examplet was concerned #ith military Nevertheless, in the Surgeon R sanitation, wfth reports of sanitary Inspectors on which action had to be taken by the Su eon GeneraZ. It was concerned with statistics of mo idity and mortality,, It was concerned wfth venereal disease control. It was eon- cerned with a whole range of preventive medf no nanm 861 such. 2 b 6 ue and public health, but under CT Well, it didn't take General Simon8 very lonhg to persuade Surgeon eneral. Hagee who I think already w88 of the 88818 opinion as General Shumons, that qz- organization was necessary, that 1ncreas.d power and increased personnel were necessary if preventive medicine were to do anything worth while, so it was on the 7th of #rur, 1940* very shortly-Shons there in February 2b, 19hO-in about six wrek8, they i8SU8d an order setting up the Preventive Medicine Sub- division still under the chief of Professional Service* 1 A That vas a die$/essing thing for preve#ive medicine and for General Siunnons too because the chief ef Prefessional Service was and continued for some

Page  538538 I 1 tima to be an officer whb thought that the chief important duties of a medical officer were only the care of the sick and the wounded. He didn't encourage preventive medicine, and he got in the way of a lot of things, this time and later, that were desirable. middle of hcsmber, 1940, that the plans for what becane the Army Epfdemiolegical How it was in this period be tween lqay and the Board were formulated and finally apprmcrd, The formulation seemed to have occurred, a8 I have been told, in conversation bletueea Lt. Colonel Show, Dr. Francis Blake, Dr. Doches and perhapr Dr. Avery, but Blake end Simnsns uere the chief ones that made the WOY~~, and it was Blake who naa then 'rofossor ef bdiciw and Dear at Yales having succeeded me in the deanship, at this the-- ne8 he hadn't come in at this tias, had he? Itwas jwt at this tirael.9ecember. Oh yes-December, but thinking of Blake getting in befsre June, to talk about the Board-perhaps he did, Curiously enough at this 25th AnniYe~8ary f the Amy Epidmiological Board, celebrks today, ko Colin HacLtsod, who was 0ne of the flret members of a commission under the board,recalled that Dr. Blah had spoen to Urn ssxnewhere in the summer of 1940, so perswelvely, that ha, cancelled his application for a caaslission in the Mavy and decided to be the head of the Peemronia Cmmission It's the period after June to December. A K 4 $ under this new hrd, preferring that pd he said, 98 a service to any other available at that time because it fitted in with hi8 interests, although it aeant he would have to remain a$ a civklian which he did all during the warr t We tried to get Dr. MacLemd to cane in to the Army, but we never could get a nnifora en him. DrI HpcLeod was natively a Canadian, and I think he'd become a naturalissd citizen at that timee He wa~ in a very proniaing academic, medical career at Hew Pork University.

Page  539539 Dr. Blab and General Simmons worked very hard with such consultation as they could find, largely, I think, frm Dochez, Avery, and Rufus Cole on plans fer this board, nine members and a number of other groups whichwere called cdssions composed altogether of civilians at this ti-. board were the rervants of the board, but notiember8 of ite had this board placed in the Offlce of the PrevefJntive Medicine Service in the Office of the Surge04 hneral sf the Army. I wae under hia as deputy chief of Preventive Medicine Service in*e Surgeon General's Office. I becam in th tiha adminiatrator of this board, and at the start the Board had one or kn other military atsistanta, notably two who haven't been recognized rrafficiently. One was Major William S. $bone, head of sanitation in the newly set up preventive medicine orgadsation and the other was %Jar Carl Lursdeberg, an epidmiologist really, beentially it was to be a central board composed of, I think, The military person8 connected with the General Simnons t4 Well, after preliminary drafts, I think, of the plan for the organizatisn of the board, the board 81 established and at that time was called the Board for the Control and Imestigatien of Influema and other Epidemic Disease8 in the Army, That long titte didn't survive very long, but it was an extremely valuable sales tag, of influema an]. the death8 mng the soldiers and tho population of this country vas rit in the minds of all the officials that had anything to do with the apprwal of thia plan. General Simmoau, knew the power ef that group of words very well, and he used them intentionally. 1 The mcollectien of the horrors of the 19184919 pandemic b 2 He built on it. Yes-after formulation of th p@w General Sinnnons in Decslliber of 1940- what's $be dab?

Page  540540 E On December 27, 1940, General Sinnnoas addressed 8 letter to the Chief of the nannlng and Training Division through the Chief of Professional Service Division recornending that the! Surgeon send the attached letter after signing it, a letter which had been wrStten by General. Simmons, te the Adjutant General raking for tb establishment of the bwwd with the long MLIB. with the approval I of tha Secretary of War. 'his was acted upon with srstoledshing speed, The letter froxu Surg8.q Generrl gee which had been written, 8a I said, by C*lmel Simmonsa dated caber 27, 1910, was approved by srder of the Secretary ef Wasn't Selective Service in operatien at this the? Weren~t we collecting young men in cups? The openfag phr UQS and paragraphs of this letter relate- you har..., To the expamion of the Amye Oh yes4 We weren't in the war) but there were maw things of a war-like nrture going 0114 As a matter of fact-this is a side issue, but the A178Ly began to expand late in 1939, and by this tiae in 1940, or shortly thereafter, them Wdra a laillion six hundred thoward men in an Army which at the beginning in 1939, waa around two hundred thousand, maybe-aat quite that much. In 1940, the vas large enough for the war Department ad the Operations Mvision ef the War Department to conduct ~~~muvers irt Hew york State, in Wisconsin, in South Carolina, and in other places in which divisienar and actual Aqi~ were put in the field, so that by the time we really got into the war, our

Page  541541 gsneralr had had field experience in handling corps, antry, divisions-all aorta of logistical probleme Thia expansion had gone pretty far *en the Board wm approved, ami it set this couatry in position to enter Werl ar 11 in 194l., after Fbarl Harbor, December 7, 19 in better position than it ever was at the ginning of aqy war in which the country had been engagedo 6 I It still needed plenty to be done, but it waa in pretty good shewe Well, this is an excellent letter from General Sinnuom. It deals with wgsaioation and personnel, the statw of civilian pctrsonnol, the procodurw t@ be followsd an ow they would functisa. The board w aa to coaeist of a central bo@ of scientists and technic% at th all of the Surgeofi w in all others, lsswd by the Surgeon ueneralCs reprosentat.fve-that is, the such as would be roquirod, and would meet The Surgeon 'eneral'o call uaa in this sense) t4 i* + + Surgeon General calling the meeting here wolald be General S~T~OIIS. Thattar 8 rtock phrasee Then there would be an additisnal group of expert reientlrrts and te nicians-ntechni.stsn as he called them. When called on by the President of the Board, who was a civilian, the in- k vestigatlvo tenasmould go out in the field and do work there, and thia w~ll called "fire fighting," An irwsstigative tsslp would cme out right away, go lnte a place, look it over, merke a study, see what needed to be done, make recommendations, and often they would continue work on the problems at their home laboratode6 in universities when they got through with the field work. This was done with great generesity by the civilians who composed these an- missions and by the universities to which they were attachod. They were faculty, and the universities contributed laboratory space, the salaries of their faculty aembers who wero meabers sf the a0~missions. The twenty dollars 8 day per diem which war3 paid to these men whilo they were them. n duty would barely feed The universities paid their salaries and never asked for rsimburs~ent. ;

Page  542>542 It was quite a wonderful thing; the way they were noved by patriotic sent*$$ even before the United States entered the war. After the United States entered the waro there was nothing asked of these ccanriasion iumbers that theyaould not do. with the board in thier manner. In a year there uaro upwards of two hundred civilians, experts connected As I said, the leng narmb af the board-nBoard for tho Investigation atad Control of Influema and ether Epidda Mseaaer in the Amy"-took too long to myp and after it made its impression %nerd. Siaaoss didn't object to the informal substitutioa of Army Epiddol@glcal Board for the low name. He himself called it en hi8 organisatisn charts and in his reperter anything that happemd to come into hir he Somtiaes it would be the "civilian epidemic6 bmrd." Sexnether it would be the "civilian epidenic control boardn and thorn- well, he might have had sone reason to emphasise the word "civilian" in thoao caoes. That'r the only time that cam in, but he was very proud of this civilian connection. He was conmted with, 8r had contact with or knew all the formost public h@dth, preventive medicine authorities in the country. He traveled a great deal to scientific meetings. Ho gam 8 great many papers about preventive medicina, and he had a great host of friendo aud scientific eelleaguere h This Board was something quite new in Army procedure, The n-8s ef it, a8i from the am2legios C tha Steraberg boards whiehwere, ehiefly cosnpoaed o ailitpry peopla, was that this om put a greater emphasis Q the civilian colapoaeet. This was rather newa and the fbt that they would be paid a psr - diem of twenty dollars a day when on duty waa stmething that had rarely been done. I can remember dealing with seine sf these questioas at a time when the budget officer of the war Departaaent was so opposed to this that he would ex- aggerate the possible dangers and isadvantages of letting the Surgeon, 'eneral 4 t ).

Page  543543 Eurv, such power over the pocket book of the War Deparbent and the professional aanpouer of the nation. He said that there was nothing imthis plan that would the Surgeon from hiring revery doctor in the country which was never the intention, trained specialists. These were carefully selected and thoroughly, broadly The Board was officially approved in hnuarg 11, 1941s and it began to uork by first establishing different comuissiotlso "hey had all sorts of nauKu3-ten coraaissiona, and according to this memorandum here, the first ones were appointed on February 6, 19121, and the 10th was appoiated in May, 1942. The names ef the carrmissiear are what you would expect in genera, but you'd have te know more about ubt they did to tell what theywere-the catmission on influenca, on epideaiological survey, on p, hemlytic streptococcal infection, on memingococcd. meningitis, 0n neurotropic virus disease, on cross inf'ections in hospitals, which became the Gomission on Airborne Infections, on tropical cliseases, and OR acute respiratory diseases, Those names are simply the names of the most important reap8 of diseases that thexilitpry had to contend with. onia, on measles and mumps, on + t The Cdssisn on Epidemiological Survey, for example, was an ill-defined Its main program was outlined affair of which I happened to be the directoro by Drc Dochss on the supposition that if you made a constant bacteriological examination frole cultures fran throat swab8 and looked for influema bacilli, pneumococci, and streptococci and found the normal da,y to dey proportion of the distributiom of the organisms that appeared in cultures you would be able when that distribution was changed to preet that something was going to happen. For instance, if you had a nod, proportional distributisn in which five percent of the colonies would be meningococci, and all of a sudden you'd get seventy percent meningococci, you'd be frightened, ni 1

Page  544544 Yeu'd know that something was upright. It wm at verg tedious study though, and it was hard to work out. We set up our groups to help us in the First Corps area arsund Boston, the Fourth Corps area in Durham, North Carolina, and the Ninath Corps area in San Francisco, and we had another group nder Morales Ottro in San Juan, Puerto Rico. them did same of thia routine bacteriological survey that bre told aboute of them became quite limited and specfallzed from the start. the Ninth Corp area, in California, had a group on which Dro Charles E. Saith served with distinctimn. This group got deeply lmterested in dust borne coccidioidawycosia infection8 in the Amy Air Force Training Base8 in the Desert Training Center, wherever there were dry, dusty regions that carried these sprw. d All of i Stme For instance, I don't know how much technicrl stuff you care to ham put in hem, but I should make it limited, unlesar there% 8oae principle involved. Yeu're primary source material for this, ad **d rather not have you limlt such coment a1 you care to mak8,, this commission is on February 22, l9kl-this plan.... imferesting thing on the establishment of Yes, but the codssion waa appointed on February 26, 19130 The pregram was almost iiamediate-work began. Yes-well, I came down here many the8 and met with a good many of those men* de Hward Mueller in Boston, David To Smith in Durhas, and I were on the telephone for houra-most of that was set up by telephone-there was a great pressure to get it done. UD to this mint. aside from the twenty dollars Der dim allmed for men

Page  545545 who would come an dutr and aside from reimbursement fer travel expenses, there was no money in the Treasury of the Boardcna treasury, no money. hard to get the money. It was very The Director of the Bureau of the Budget of the War Department couldn't understand this. He Just thought that this was almost a criminal raid upon the funds of the War Departmant. I think Major Lundeberg and a Colonel Francis C. Tyng in Supply in the Surgeon General's Office carried on most of the negotiation toward this end, representing Colonel Sinrmons whe even at that time hew very well suoh 8 way that he urn never In danger of getting sunk personally, and he could ew to navigate in these tre"ub1ed J waters in k therefore sort of stand en the deck and Mvo his associate8 into dealing with the hard-boiled War Department budget people. I don't thinkwe get atsy money ret aside for this until late in the year, but I left thore papers dowarstaim. I think the Board in a series of meetings during the spring of l9kl-one in February, one in May, and a later on In Jnns developed a yearly progrm with a budget and suhitted it. By the time it received consideration, themquest waa for a propertion of t y ear, becaure I don't think funda were made available until October of 19kl. suggest to Hr. Bun who was Assistant to the Secretary of War that there night be duplication involved. The Conzglittee onMedical Research under OSRD had been floated, I think, 8-6 time in 19b1, and --you know, who was going to do ato e I ?' rb Tkere1s a parallel development going on that seesued to Well, the difficulty with words is that they easily appear to be duplicates, but it's the 8ubl)tance. partment mid,Wetre going te cut out duplicationo ef Physics in the dupllcatioI?J Wetre net going to have a duplicationgn For instance, at one the soaebody in the Defense DeC Loek they have a Department and a Department of Physics in the 'by, and that's 2 To go back to the names of these ccllpwiglaions-there's much duplication

Page  546546 raderneath these namest far lore than the general gentleaen running the funds of the War Doparbent possibly appreciated, or asked questions abouta You have r Cdssion on Pneuntcnia, for exBmpleo Well, one of the common complications ef meaales is pneiimonia, but we have a Commission 8nWeaslesr Be have a Ccamaisaian en Influenea. IS a constant complication of it,, Iufertiona takes in everything from a sore throat to bronchial pneumonia, and there's pneumonia again. the CasPaiasion on Cross-Infectisna pneuaonirs that ariae frarn infected sprays coming from the mouths of patienk, ameses and whatnot. It became the Airborne Infeckiorr Cdssioa in 1942, but it w.8 All iaterestd in the results sf airborne infections whichwere often pmumonic. Tropical diseassr-there are many pneumonia-like diseases, pneumonitis and pneumonia8 eonnected with trcppical di8ea868. though it'a separate, but it could be add to be a duplication, although eaeh one of th 849 ha8 its om characbristias aa pwumenia and a certain ecological and rssociational individuality that aeta it apart. Influema is a respiratory diseaae, and pneumonia The Caailaissien on Hmolytic Streptocoecal Cross-Infeions in Hospitals is another me in which in Hospitals would be dealing with the The whole thing looks as 0 \ In addition, neither General SinnOn~ nm I, nor the Mrectors of these cearadssioars felt bound by %hem name#. of hepatitis caused with the vaccine against yellow fever. ~a808. The mortality was not high-two percent of hospitalized caseso Hot two percent of the thomandrr. hqv of them never went to the hospital. We threw everything we had into this critical imestigation of hepatitis which was frightenimgr his eutbreak was frightening to General George C. %-shall and to the Sseretary of Wara In 1943, there waa this huge sutbreak the introduction of the rh-uar of hepatitis into soldiers There may have bean two hundred thousand It urs incapacitating great arectieac of the Air Ferce

Page  547547 titularly at the time of the Battle of Midway. gated in greateat scorecy tooe To attack that problem we uaed the olagiarts and epidemiologists from the Cdssion on Influenza and the Corn- seion bn Pneumonia, and the Coxnission OQ Xeaslee and Mureps did $me of the Ittts a great uorry. It wad best work on hepatitis as did the Commission on Tropical Maeases under Wilbur 'ater en the Cdssien on ??eurotropic Virus Disearseso worMng ia the ddle wast and in Sicily, got deeply interested in nom1 infectious hepatitis radits relations to post vaccinal jaundice. Well, that continued throughout b rest of the war. One ef the very delighthl things about the Board was that we could under- rbnd each other even if we put meanings in wrds that were not apparent frm consultation with a dictionary. wganisatiae in the Reventiro .cine Servise in the Office of the Surgeon bneral-the names of the divisions and branches. Service got t0 be a huge organinatien, and it was a puaz\e to give names to all the sections and branches. General Sipamarm was constantu changing tbm, and pt they were often just names to aubdivisions of one group that had done the whole thing at one tlm, say laboratories, or enteric infectiom. didntt trouble us too mcho Tstt had to be verJr precise when you sent the organisation chart forward to be appr sd in the Office of the Surgeea General's Executive Officer, but among ourselves, certainly oa, far as Iwaa concerned, the name didn't mean too much; in fact, at one time I thought that the creation and the naming of subdivisiom was a method of securing a slot for a promtion* Create 8 new branch, put a captain in, and mako him a major in a week. dona e That saw thing, I think, struck me in the The Preventive pbdicine Those names fi That was Wow, wetve finished enough with the financeso I think. This beard-Pd

Page  548548 ' like I when I get that sheet back to put in the aetoanto because itts piti- filly small0 I think when you bring: those pape rs back, it will shed more light on the process-the internal struggle for recognition within the Army, q uite apart fram Preventive Medicine, plus this relationship outside, again for recognition, to the new idea that was floated under the Committee on kdical Research of OSRD, Somewhere along th@ line, I gues8, Dr, Blab was persuasive enough to obtain fram Dr. Lewis He Weed I letter to Mr. Harvey Bun sustaining the necwaity for this board and its financing. to in sane notes that I have seen as the fight for the recognition of the entire program and a battle for the appropriation. This early period became what was referred That went OR dl the ttmeo We'd -- better come back to that_becarrzse I*mdust about at the end he=. Wetre gone on for over an hour. pes, it*s twenty after three. .4

Page  549549 yesterdat.we got into--oh, the historical background of the Army Epidemiological Board with saae insight into then Lto Colonel Sbtnm-e Show wae a fU,l colonel by that time, We traced sawthing of his background and interest, See if that lsnrt sfmd Colonel? He wroto that for General Magee-Lt. Colonel-this letter which came out repre- sentilrg his thinking, or the thinking tnthin the Preventive Medicine Sectiono o o It's the combined thinking of Colonel S-@ns, Dr. Blake, and Drs Dochs~, I thinko Thia letter wps accepted-xlar not using proper Army terms- the Sscretq of War on January 11, 19 The letter was subaitted over the signature of the Surgeon beneral to the Adjutant General, and the Adjutant General laid it before samebody in the Office of the Secretary of war who was able to put an endorsement OQ it a6 of January 11, 1941, "approved" /-with .L minor exceptiowl "by order of the Secretary of War." Which gives it a veraood parenthood, and I think that ie important in sub- sq,quent developents. That approval by the Secretary of War was a very high and important approval. It overrides lesse pprovals, and i 88 very inportant further when c

Page  550550 these consultants were appointed, The first Board was sppoinbd by the Soeretary of War. Most of the comultants were appointed by the Seoretary of War; in fact, we called tern acsnsultants to the Secretary 0f Waru# and they were very proud of that. went o It had a valuable leverage in maw places that they This letter approved embodiers an idea which is activated as sruaetMng real in I series of meetings in February through JUE, 19u0 A program and a suggested_ budget comes out of them meetings. 'berefs work afoot, but insufficient funds,, I think a8 of that year, or -for exceed fifteen thensand dollars. Very small. The Beard seemed to reqtdre net only the approval ef its program, but funds with which to implquent that prqgran, and this takes us pretty much through 1913- October The first thing that was done in the orgaaicatisa of the Board WUI the decision on the nmbers of caapAissions to be appointed first and the direetors of thoere C~SS~~I~S. If youlll give me that pencilad note, refer to th-. We talkeduwhere is that? Here. We talked about the comaission8,, It11 just put in again for the record that by February 6, 1941, seven C~f3SiO~ had been appointed, and by btoveaber, 19lb, the eighth crmnissimn had been appointed, and by ecember, 194l, the ninth commission. Altogethe\ there were ten cOamissione, the laat in Hay of 1942, Once thoro corrrmiesiocw were appointed, or were decided upon, directors were appointed, and the directors t.

Page  551551 wore asked by Dr, Blake who had been appointed the President sf the Board, to formulate plans and to suggest nan~ds of men who would be suitable as Hexaber8 oi the coBPpIssion8, That took a lot of hard work and time in the early part rf 19W. It was rather rapidly cmpleted. At the sppa) tine a cdssion director, after he had gathered around himelf stme of the rrpecialists in %e field bf 8 particular cs~rraissibn~e interests, formulated a pregram for the work of the cOaaission, Meld work wa8 irplicit-if I may pwe such a uord- in the Itfire fightingtt conception of the Board, lating 8 program would just saj that it uw rea* to undertab imestigatielcs in the field, in caapr, or in reeruitaent centers, or uherever troops might be, and wherever troops right be faced with a problem that this particular c~mmiasion was conpetent to attack. famulate 8 research program to attack events that bad mt yet occurred. he 8- time each cmunisrsioa cmld mako a pragram for the continued, lemg krm studies that they would carry eut in their own nairersity laboratorieo. Thatwas easily doneo The corsaissien without formu- Everyoras had the 8a~e idea. You didn't have to At A8 pia say, the next iapsrtmt thing, and this w.8 siauilta~oualy worked en with tho other plana, were the effarts to obtain funds. meded for three pwpsses-trapel funds for menbers of the comiitsaioa, asmwance that the per diem sf twenty dollars a day dle on active duty in the field would be paid, arid the money that could be usQd fer the support of researah carried @a under the auspbees of the comtnissiea, er by the CQglBfssion. Thotwa quite a wu problem, a mew maneuver at least in the War DeparWentce- I won't srgr that it wa8 entirely new in the War Dapartsment*s support of re- 88UTCh, but it wa8 in larger vdme and unde time than it had been fer some time in the past. with ffls subjeot of the financing af the Board didntt understand itr The fd uere ore urgent CircuBllstances at thia The people who were dealt g H A + They

Page  552552 I didn't understand the aha of the Board very well and were anxious about federal mmey caning through the War Department for the support ef these medical in- vestigative projeeta. prrtaent, espeefally the director, were suspicious that the arrangements fer one group of people in the Budget Offioe of the War De- 1 rpr of twenty dellars a day and Cio lirritaticpn8 Bet yet e8 the .noun% that might be ma available would, a8 he told me, pssibly give the Surgeon General the power to ea11 in all the doctors in the United States. ridiculew, He VIE 8 very difficult nuan t. deal With when it came to getting aomy fer the activities of the Board, and M a matter of fact, he wasn't persuaded to approve this fraa the War Department Budget Bureau point of view uritil into 1942. It was 'Phe Office of tho Secretary of War wished to a8sure itself that this undertaking the Aryy Epideniol@gical Board was not something that would duplicate other things that the war Department was doing, or wae being done by agencios aleso to the War Department. an the nedical field were at thfs time the Office of Scientific Ikssarah and Dovelopent which had cme aleng and also the Natisaal Academy sf Scienoegs National Research Council, and there are recorda in these papers we have hers before ue ef the application of the War Departaent to, VO'U say, the E3ational Rerearch Conacll, to determine whether or not the Csuncil regarded this pro- man and propsals for the Amy Epidsaiolsgical Board a8 8 duplication of effart in modiea1 rmsearch. The War Department rddressedletters to Dr. Lewis Wood who uaa chairman of the Division of died Sciences-I think Xr. Bun* waa the me who approached hir and in a very nataral way becarrae the National. Research Council had been eve% up by the Natioap'l Academy of Sciences in 1919, in accordaneo with suggestieas in an Executive Order of hesideat Wilsrsn to furnish scientific advice and services to government departments. The agencies close to the War Department That was its

Page  553553 nctlen. In es~~encc that was the functim of the original Natimd Acadeay of Sciences, but the %ions1 b8earch Council war more of an operating agency la its relatiamhip to government departments than the ''ational Acrrdeay of Sciences. a1 on the tional Research Council for adrice en the validity ef the program Itwaa perfectly natura) and proper that the Secretary of War wsuld of the Board, en ifx aapabilitlss, and particularly a8 te whether they t ught it was an effort in duplicatien that might be wasteful of money. 4 I The replies, as I remnber them and seen th leceetly, both from 4 Dr. Weed and also Dr* A. No Richards, who was the Chairman of the Committee @R Medical bsearch of the Office of Scientific Research and Develepent, were that the Board urn not a duplicating mechanism, that it had a militarily oriented program that the National Research Council did not have and that it was set right in the midst of the military affairs in a way that the National Reaearch Cwncil could never attain. Although they didn't say it, they showed, and everyone knew this to be true, that Dr. Richard8 and Dr. Weed were very close and admiring friends of General Siaaaons; a1 a matter of fact, the compositien of the Board and of the cdssionswas enriched by drawing into it 8 great many members of the boards and cossnittess of the National Rasearch Council and the members of the National Academy of Sciences. Dr* Blake-m11, I could namo doaens of them that had position8 in both organizations. Furthenore, they mrecwell, the first authori5ation of the Surgeon 'enera1 to set up a aeparate subdivision 0.0 Preventive Hedicine in his office contained a require- went that that Preventive bdicine Division sheuld hrme a liaison relationship not only with the Public Health Service, but with all civilian agencies that uere concerned in the field of Preventive Medicine, and it was assutwd-General SiPmnons was the offieid. liaison effficer to the National Rosearch Council and to the Committee on Medical Research; in fact, he was a member o he CamPnittsre

Page  554554 Medical b8earCh appointed by the Secretary of War on the recornendation of It sur eon General, SQ this was all very natural-uhat we called S. 0. P. ,B m't going outside of the War Department to have such relationships. There were so06 trip8 outside the War D partduent by individuals such as t hneral Sbons and myself, but that was done to bring influence to bear OR officials in the government by laying problems before important civilians out- ride the government who could reach, we'll say, the Secretary of War, OF reach 6ome of the members of the Gene41 Staff which I will tell about more plainly when it cmes to the story of the alletnments and the control of the personnel for the Board. Xaybe Ilm again being too logical, for which please forgive me, but this Istter--this letter of December 27, 1940, in view of expansion, had in it 8 note of urgency. related to a sense of urgency-that is, young men are cominp into the Amy, and time is important, and this appedlred to be something of a road block. I v The action frm the first and aecond meetings of the Board I What waa a read bleck? 1 Whether the programwas going to be a duplication, or whether it should be supported with funds seem to have been a duplication itself in the face of this UT gency o Well, General Simmons and Dr. Blake certainly had the sense of urgency, but the guardians ef the check books have a 8eme of conservati~nn. country was not, yet at war and a few ofthaa appreciated the semi-war like con- ditio- of mcruitaent centers, mobilization centers, training centers, the same time the Army was increasing, getting up by the end of 19U, to abme a million men, and it had engaged by that tiae in the extensive maneuvers that The At

Page  555555 kwu mare than some of the people who were laoatly interested in financing. Rightcsnd I think it-s intcresting to point out that Dr. Weed'rs letter builds en this sense of urgency-the early experience with influema and ita potential explosisn at any timeo Yeso Well, that was General S~JIUUOSS' cleverness and wisdcm at putting the word "influens;a" in the title of the rganisation. ala= at the start, and influenea--you don't need to have a war to have a devastating influenza epidemic among people in the lando beth civilians and military at the same time, as happened in 1918-1919. Itwra an Crlsma, saunding an P That would attack Also froslmy experienco '*m sure that a 8ense of urgency, or an exhibition @f urgency, add8 emphasis to the points of persuasion. that out, nobody would pay any attention to it. about Japanese medical affairs a footnote sayhg that the Japanerre might use yellow fever for biological warfare. manner. thoug@ it ma urgent and urgent too, in the sen8e that allgTonn knows that them things tab tiare, 89 the facter you can get them going the better. If you just flatly put I stYmsd you in the Manual That puts urgency in a sort cpf threatening I think the letter of December 27, 1940, is not at all averdone. I 1 I-ceaing to it f'rssh a8 I -in reading this I dontt get the ae~e of sales- manship here. Thio ia re. It's (c sineere thingdf course it is,, What is itdtevw. aggravation comes In terms bf delay doesn't subtr8Ct from the seriousness of it and the aineerity of its although now human problem ih a big organhatiom like the Arny take time. It's derasting, I think, to T

Page  556556 1\ bow that in one af the memoranda I read this rdnin~ that even the conservative forces within the War Department who had to do with finance in the very act of patting a limitation on the funds which could be ulsed In 19111, also included in that order, in the event that solnething like iwfluenaa might occur, a provision which empowered the Board to do whatever was necesp~ary, and you cantt , !" I , . get loeser language than that. 1 Ne. Also the letter had to be fairly strongly stated to overcome reluctance sf the stand pat Medical Department efficers. I wonderad about that. They didntt care for this Board. They theught it was an intrusien-a lot of them did. They w ere-I won't say Jealous. to be jealous-I mean they weren't Jealous because they uere better; they were jealous because they had a system with which they were s.tisfied, years of peacer They diddt have the capacity I They'd had The wprrp and familiar. Yese We ran across that all the time at5 will ceme out in sme other things here. eriginality c~mt up all the tima against the habituated rule-governed medica1 =forts of the Beard to conduct% its work with sme independence and @f fiatr8. This accurmulakd pressare and clarity of the program and ita need from the National Research Council and OSRD aided not a little*... Oh yes. In educating personnel that had to deal with finance to mlease funds, thaugh

Page  557557 1 557 while the budgetmi designed as of June 26, I believe, and papers were forwarded, the aotual grant didn*t come until some time in October 6. 19411 Yes, so funds were proportioned for the yeare Jut to gs outside OP the BoarNatioaal Rearearch Council-Medical Deportment relationship-I could show yen in books tbt I havo downstairs how policy of the Surgeon `eneral war based 88 recoamnendatiom from Preventive Medicine that get approved by special crmwni;t ties of the National Research Council. The whele i.nunisation program woll submittadd w.8 going to say de80 by dose, but I memn material by material, to the National Rasearch Councilo It would come back frm the National search Council, after deliberate consideration in a committee, approved, and then the Preventive Medicine Division would lay the plan before the Surgeon General far apprwal. Medicine that affected the whole Anay could not be put into force by the Surgesn General, he then had to get the approval uaaally of the Asskshnt Chief of Staff G-4 of the War Department General Staff, As these things in Preventive If you'll lobk at the Amy Regu- lations, we*ll says on everything on sanitation, hygiem, immunization, every- thing for the presewatioa of the health ofttroops that concerned the behavior of the troops, they all are over the signature of General Marshall who was Chief of Staff. The Surgeon General can't give any ordem ia the lines He can order things for his own people in the Medical Department, but he can`t issue any caarmands for line troops. signed by or\ of the Chief of Staff signed George Marshall-I mean by order ,L of the Secretary of War signed George garshall. That binds the National Ra- rearch Council by its action in approving the reecmmendQtioaa that cps to it "here are whole books @f erders that are just c

Page  558558 It i$rm Preventive dicine, watll say, for the adoption of the yellow fever 1' vaccine. It puts the National Relrearch Council in B chain of what becomes earmind. Well, those relations were very ~~PRD~~QUS. We haw each other, and 8-0 ltin frm Preventive Medicine attended every omanittee meting in the ttion.l Berrearch Council that had awhing to do with the work of prevention of disease all through the years of the uar. We knew not ow the officers, but the nambers of their advisory cosaittear, andwe had free accelr8 to nauch speeial information that they gathered, or war reported to them for information. well, I think it mitlook on the surf8uo of this as if it uere a strictu Medical DepartraentcWar Departaent undertaking, but it was done in thorough collaboration with impor hnt civilian age der. Well, is thare anymore there? I tMnk ue've clarified the financing-that is, it was available in October, but by that time 80me of the coslnissiors had started working and I think in- troduced new problem which the War DoparkPent hadnat confrontd-the whole matter of contract with the universitiau, the special problem-I guess itfs in Camp Claborae which lod too.ro Yes, which w.8 Qnforeseen at the timo, but a oadusien laberatory emerged I as neeeseary in tern of the continuity which I think you owht to go intoo I I? 2 Well, the contact-the War Department contracts-er "research contracts" as we called them, contracts for the conduct sf research, were fill of problems

Page  559559 that the War Departaent financial staff had never met before like this. we used to coatracts for tangible objects-RhBrbWlre" it is called. They were used to contracting with people that could make sontething according to rpccir'ications in the contract and deliver it on a certain day, or suffer a ponalty. %ey had to learn that you could not do that with idea and biological raterialir With the btter you cantt be sur8 how you're going to cap18 out, and yep can*t be sure that the problem remains the 98108 while yoube work on ito Contract$ had to be adjusted to intellectual flexibility and a degree of un- certainty that doesn't exist in the ordinary cumerela1 field. Tbe8e contracting efficers tried at first to just adapt the ordinary coraPnercial type of hardware contract to the intellectually, and I say spiritually, variable factors that they hadn*t h8d much to do with before; namely, the problem and the scientific investigative metheds on the one hard and the universities as organiaations and the people of the universities oa the other-a group of people they hadntt dealt with before and a group of subjects that they hadn't dealt with. a good deal of time to reach understandfws and work out satisfactory contracts. They h It took Thoee early contracts were suwtted by universities to their legal counselo work wm dLmady under way. to take on these costly Jobs for the government without imnediate reimbUrsenento It happened in two way8 that they weren't reimbursad immed+atekg-one was that some of this work began before the contracts were aetwlly signed, and the university paid With the prospect of being repaid, and the secmad -8 the lapse Strong objectiens wore wdo, and drafta went back and forth while the It has alwap been very generow ef the unirerslties of time that occurs between the beginning of a ftscal year and the time whelr an appropriation becmea available. Tbre were priod in all of this work when there was no meney-for maybe two aaonths-to be paid to the universities S k

Page  560560 to meet additional expenses. fiscal year and the beginning of the next flscal par. acted until the session was either own?, or about to begin. the authorities in the budget sections of these udversity departments could continue to make money available at the rate at which it had been made available in the preview part of the par, even though nc new appropriation had been made. Often that w asntt enough. There was more work going on and need for money than the older rate of pay could support, so the universities went rather far into-I won't say real debt, but they advanced iw of money to keep this work going out of a beme of patrletisa. Often the Congress had not acted by the end of the Sometimes they hadntt The rule was that The same things happemd to investugators who were seat 8broad and moved around, or ware lost track of, so to speak, a didnrt recefm any pay for several months sometimes. Theywre working In the back woo of OMmwa, way off in Iceland, er Newfoundland, or North Africa, and they didn't get any pay because this pay didnrt come through ordinary Amy channels. with the troopa never paid this money. Washington pay sgatano with very complicated voucher8 to fill out and all sorts of scrutiny of the items by the accountants. hero recorda Iwas going to use, the actual budgets by commissions for every year from 19bl untll 1946. ten cdssions over that period wae $L,498,04. The present rat. of expendi- ture for this Burd is about three and a half million dollars a year. But some of these things look ridiculous if pu look back over them. One year's ex- penditure OR Tropiual Msease Researek here is $!hO. Big contracts of $2O,OOO with Chicago, or New York Uairerslty, or Columbia were eys catching and startling to the people who dealt with them, but theyyrs small now. were what I wed to call-and do in present talks with dlrecters of coBIRpIssions- 'he paynaster This msney came out of a central finally it got paid. I have It*@ interesting that the total expenditore for the I think we

Page  561561 thousand dollar agoniaem in theae *a, and now they're laillion dollar agbniaers. You initially had thia Commission @a Epidemielogical Survg, and I ham that eentrect here-I think I dorryese The complication was a contract directly ti Yale with the power to subcontract - to other institutiom. Thatwasn't--what@r the date of that? Lot s .tsee-1942 o This didntt start that way exaetly. It practically did though The Coaaission on Epiddolcagical Survey was, as I think 1 haveecplaiaad, primarily designed to keepwatch mer the bacterial flora in the throats and noses of soldiers because it-s u13efU1. If you fewd in a camp when yoa started that ten percent of the soldiers were carriers of meningocoecw, and the next week I there would be thirty percent, you'd pet alaaed. That would wan that there are that many more hundred8 of people carrying the organfua. we were lookiw for. That was what plan this of P I now remembrr what you're driviag at bemuse this is early 1942. The wa8 approved by financo afficerrs es -11 as by the Board managanent that caaenission-or it night have been any conmission-could be ured as a sort banker for others that needed noaey and didn't hwe it i heir budgob, mr i had overspent3 aa a matter of fact, after I went out at3 director of that cdssioa in 1942, it waa taoa amr by Dr. Blab, and uro;der his direction bac0eriologiarl survey of throat and nose tilturea practically dropped out, and thie be- 8 coamission which could financa unexpected tw that were occurring in the field8 of other cds83fowo C 71 1 It never had a very largo budget. Bo. Hem in tb four axwiq-lst Corps, bth Corps, and 9th Corps and one other- oh, Puerts BIcoe

Page  562562 Pea-herto Bico. The total for thi., and this is for all purposesB is $31,000. In 19h21 Aetualy expenditure wa8 a3#0( 1% not sure that the amount you gave there a8 being the amount allocated for this coragaiesionisatt too large. Is that a final contract form that you ham? I don't know. Per, this i8 an approved contraat. That's about the way it ran) but the expenditar.8 uoro much leas than that. It ran about $l8,OOO-I have it in here. Sometimes it wu mro. It got up in X944, to $76,000, and in 1945, that contract was $136,,000 with expenditures of $127,000, but it d.id a lot of interesting S thing. 2 I'll it did. Itwaa very useful when the outbreak of poat vaccinal jaundice cane on- hepatitis. 'Phtre was much extra work to be done then. Ym*w indicatod that there war ere88 referenco among all the cJspnissioas so